Dan and 4 Guard Offense

giovanni · Unread post by **giovanni** » 7 years ago

I know Coach H and his team have preached game is changing to guard oriented game , and he loves playing guys under 6'4", but the more I watch these very good tournament teams, his theory seems to be a bit in question. I know we are no where close to a power 5 team, but last I looked KY, Duke, NC, UCLA, Baylor, Louisville, FSU, VA, Oregon , Kansas, Wisconsin, Purdue, just to mention a few have very big, talented players. I don't have time to mention another 50 teams that feel the same. Villanova won it with a small team of guys who could first of all, shoot the ball and were mentally very tough. But that was an extreme rarity. ND is an excellent , and small team, but again , very well coached, can shoot and mentally tough. Is it about time to begin to think differently? We can't even play 2 guys over 6-7 at a time.

adam914 · Unread post by **adam914** » 7 years ago

So all we need to do is start to recruit a bunch of 1 and done Top 25 big men. Easy! Can't believe they haven't thought of that yet.

Seriously though, who are the 4 guards that we play the majority of the time? Hass and Iverson? Forwards. Akele and Lengevine? Forwards. That is the general substition pattern. You may not be happy with the forwards we have, and that's fine. But I don't see 4 guards playing together all the time. In spurts maybe, sure, but it's not like we have 4 guards out there for 20 minutes a game.

section(105) · Unread post by **section(105)** » 7 years ago

......from the old school, wish I had nickel for every time I have said this.....can we get a center, back to basket, low post drop step, make foul shots, clean some glass.... player......I do not like the four guards.....

theblueram · Unread post by **theblueram** » 7 years ago

a center, 2 forwards and 2 guards please.

Unread post by **ATPTourFan** » 7 years ago

I used to have dial up internet too.

adam914 · Unread post by **adam914** » 7 years ago

section(105) wrote:......from the old school, wish I had nickel for every time I have said this.....can we get a center, back to basket, low post drop step, make foul shots, clean some glass.... player......I do not like the four guards.....

That would be fantastic, but those players simply do not exist anymore.

section(105) · Unread post by **section(105)** » 7 years ago

adam914 wrote:
section(105) wrote:......from the old school, wish I had nickel for every time I have said this.....can we get a center, back to basket, low post drop step, make foul shots, clean some glass.... player......I do not like the four guards.....
That would be fantastic, but those players simply do not exist anymore.

Ya mean extinct like dinosaurs?

adam914 · Unread post by **adam914** » 7 years ago

section(105) wrote:
adam914 wrote:
section(105) wrote:......from the old school, wish I had nickel for every time I have said this.....can we get a center, back to basket, low post drop step, make foul shots, clean some glass.... player......I do not like the four guards.....
That would be fantastic, but those players simply do not exist anymore.
Ya mean extinct like dinosaurs?

Let's go with "endangered" instead. Either way, they aren't finding their way to Kingston.

ramster · Unread post by **ramster** » 7 years ago

theblueram wrote:a center, 2 forwards and 2 guards please.

All teams we play go with 3 guards in today's 3 point shot oriented game. All your AAU teams go with 3 or 4 guards. Big men becoming less and less a part of today's game.

theblueram · Unread post by **theblueram** » 7 years ago

ATPTourFan wrote:I used to have dial up internet too.

I really don't care if Dan plays 3 midgets, a stick figure and scooby doo. Dude needs to get to the NCAAT.

RoadyJay · Unread post by **RoadyJay** » 7 years ago

Traditional Centers really are rare these days. There may be a couple in the NBA. They are very hard to come by at the college level. 3pt line, 30 second shot clock are a couple reasons for the near extinction of Centers. The other thing is kids don't even want to be classified as Centers. They all want to be able to put the ball on the floor and step out and make a three.

Guard, Forward, Center really are terms that aren't even used much anymore.

That being said I would love to see Hass, Cyril, and KI or just Hass and Cyril on the floor at the same time. None of them are traditional Centers but I think what people are really saying is that it would be nice to have more "length" on the floor at times.

reef · Unread post by **reef** » 7 years ago

I definitely want to see Hass and Cyril on the court together

Running Ram · Unread post by **Running Ram** » 7 years ago

No adam, not 20 minutes a game, just when it counts, the four guard offense comes out at about 6-7 minutes left in every close game where we have lost a good lead in the second half and its four guards most of that last stretch. And we never win those close ones. So there's that, but keep defending DH's game time coaching guys because it really makes you look smaht. DH and the four people defending the four guard offense must know things we don't know. Listen everybody, just be patient, wait for it....

rambone 78 · Unread post by **rambone 78** » 7 years ago

The only time I can defend Dan for playing the 4 guards at a time, is because we were basically out of bigs...either they are hurt [Hass] or in big time foul trouble....and we have a lot of guards, so there you go.....

However that does not get DH off the hook entirely....it's that unbalanced roster thing....we just don't have enough frontcourt help....that's that recruiting thing.....and the bigs we do have Dan refuses to play them [Layssard, Berry].

I would think against the giant Holloway we should play those guys a bit......

UCH21377 · Unread post by **UCH21377** » 7 years ago

Most college teams, at least at A10 level, go with two forwards and 3 guards. It's just the availability of good players; more guards out there. That being said, Dan does seem to always default back to guards vs bigs when things get tight. I am actually ok with going with the 4 gurds when situations dictate it. But I feel the offense and defenses employed need to change when doing that. IMO the pace should pick up, and we should press, double team, trap, that sort of thing. If we just play man-to-man straight up we get dominated.

The bottom line of all of this is Hassan is half of himself, and we are in some serious trouble trying to deal with it. I think he needs to just let Langevine, and even Laysard, play through some growing pains, unless he has plans to change his offensive and defensive strategies.

rambone 78 · Unread post by **rambone 78** » 7 years ago

21377, you're making too much sense.....cut it out......

Change offensive and defensive strategies? Dan? What?

Rhode_Island_Red · Unread post by **Rhode_Island_Red** » 7 years ago

I don't mind the four-guard offense. It's the four-guard defense that gives me fits.

As for the lack of true post players, part of the blame had to fall on the AAU-shoe company-recruiting "ranking" industry, which over-values three-point shooting, slashing and "finishing" (whatever the hell that means) over team-oriented skills.

Now get off my lawn!

Rhodymob05 · Unread post by **Rhodymob05** » 7 years ago

I love old school big men too and yes they do exist, Giovanni is right, 99% of tourney teams have solid big men and rim protectors, Dayton being the expectation. Look at the center in Indiana, back to the basket kid, or jester on Duke, or on UNC etc. Don't be fooled by today's style, is doesn't mean big men aren't huge parts of tourney teams. We need one badly. Hass is close, we need taller.

RoadyJay · Unread post by **RoadyJay** » 7 years ago

Rhodymob05 wrote:I love old school big men too and yes they do exist, Giovanni is right, 99% of tourney teams have solid big men and rim protectors, Dayton being the expectation. Look at the center in Indiana, back to the basket kid, or jester on Duke, or on UNC etc. Don't be fooled by today's style, is doesn't mean big men aren't huge parts of tourney teams. We need one badly. Hass is close, we need taller.

Do you think we are competing with Indiana, Duke or UNC for big men?

UCH21377 · Unread post by **UCH21377** » 7 years ago

You need to get guys that can be developed. Will Martell being a good example of a guy that can help down the road. Heck they may be on the roster now. Time will tell.

Running Ram · Unread post by **Running Ram** » 7 years ago

UCH21377 wrote:Time will tell.

only if allowed to develop

NYGFan_Section208 · Unread post by **NYGFan_Section208** » 7 years ago

rambone 78 wrote:The only time I can defend Dan for playing the 4 guards at a time, is because we were basically out of bigs...either they are hurt [Hass] or in big time foul trouble....and we have a lot of guards, so there you go.....

However that does not get DH off the hook entirely....it's that unbalanced roster thing....we just don't have enough frontcourt help....that's that recruiting thing.....and the bigs we do have Dan refuses to play them [Layssard, Berry].

I would think against the giant Holloway we should play those guys a bit......

Would seem Berry might get a shot...what do we think will happen in his first matchup with the UMass load?
-he stops him, makes him pass out?
-H'way drop steps around him and scores?
-H'way shoots over him...'and one'?

I'd like to see AB contribute, but ...gotta be able to stay in front of someone....

Billyboy78 · Unread post by **Billyboy78** » 7 years ago

I don't see Layssard developing at the end of the bench. Sure, practice time is good for him. But if that's the case, he should have been redshirted too.

adam914 · Unread post by **adam914** » 7 years ago

Running Ram wrote:No adam, not 20 minutes a game, just when it counts, the four guard offense comes out at about 6-7 minutes left in every close game where we have lost a good lead in the second half and its four guards most of that last stretch. And we never win those close ones. So there's that, but keep defending DH's game time coaching guys because it really makes you look smaht. DH and the four people defending the four guard offense must know things we don't know. Listen everybody, just be patient, wait for it....

I'm not defending a 4 guard offense, I am saying we don't play very much 4 guard offense. Big difference. Again, yeah sure maybe at times there are 4 guards out there, but I honestly don't recall seeing very much time where some combo of Hassan/Iverson/Akele/Langevine are not on the floor. Maybe when there is foul trouble.

rhodysurf · Unread post by **rhodysurf** » 7 years ago

NYGFan_Section208 wrote:
rambone 78 wrote:The only time I can defend Dan for playing the 4 guards at a time, is because we were basically out of bigs...either they are hurt [Hass] or in big time foul trouble....and we have a lot of guards, so there you go.....

However that does not get DH off the hook entirely....it's that unbalanced roster thing....we just don't have enough frontcourt help....that's that recruiting thing.....and the bigs we do have Dan refuses to play them [Layssard, Berry].

I would think against the giant Holloway we should play those guys a bit......
Would seem Berry might get a shot...what do we think will happen in his first matchup with the UMass load?
-he stops him, makes him pass out?
-H'way drop steps around him and scores?
-H'way shoots over him...'and one'?

I'd like to see AB contribute, but ...gotta be able to stay in front of someone....

Berry played in the game last year specifically to match Holloway and I remember Holloway getting the better of him, especially rebounding.

Running Ram · Unread post by **Running Ram** » 7 years ago

adam914 wrote:
Running Ram wrote:No adam, not 20 minutes a game, just when it counts, the four guard offense comes out at about 6-7 minutes left in every close game where we have lost a good lead in the second half and its four guards most of that last stretch. And we never win those close ones. So there's that, but keep defending DH's game time coaching guys because it really makes you look smaht. DH and the four people defending the four guard offense must know things we don't know. Listen everybody, just be patient, wait for it....
I'm not defending a 4 guard offense, I am saying we don't play very much 4 guard offense. Big difference. Again, yeah sure maybe at times there are 4 guards out there, but I honestly don't recall seeing very much time where some combo of Hassan/Iverson/Akele/Langevine are not on the floor. Maybe when there is foul trouble.

or when things get tight towards the end of close games.

ramster · Unread post by **ramster** » 7 years ago

This is Richmond's starting 5. 4 Guards and TJ Cline who is an excellent passing big man.
T.J Cline, SR, 6'9" F
ShawnDre' Jones, SR, 6'0" G
Khan Fore, Soph, 6'0" G
Julius Johnson, Soph, 6'3" G
DeMonte Buckingham, Freshman, 6'4" G

Next guy in:
Nick Sheridan, Freshman, 6'4" G

What line up should we play against the 5-0 Spiders?

Rhodymob05 · Unread post by **Rhodymob05** » 7 years ago

RoadyJay wrote:
Rhodymob05 wrote:I love old school big men too and yes they do exist, Giovanni is right, 99% of tourney teams have solid big men and rim protectors, Dayton being the expectation. Look at the center in Indiana, back to the basket kid, or jester on Duke, or on UNC etc. Don't be fooled by today's style, is doesn't mean big men aren't huge parts of tourney teams. We need one badly. Hass is close, we need taller.
Do you think we are competing with Indiana, Duke or UNC for big men?

I never said anything about competing for the same players as those teams, just siting the importance of having a sizable player in the paint and how it leads to success.

ramster · Unread post by **ramster** » 7 years ago

Read this where Williams of UNC went without a post player for the first time in 29 years yesterday and played 4 guards

http://www.espn.com/blog/collegebasketb ... rida-state

theblueram · Unread post by **theblueram** » 7 years ago

ramster wrote:This is Richmond's starting 5. 4 Guards and TJ Cline who is an excellent passing big man.
T.J Cline, SR, 6'9" F
ShawnDre' Jones, SR, 6'0" G
Khan Fore, Soph, 6'0" G
Julius Johnson, Soph, 6'3" G
DeMonte Buckingham, Freshman, 6'4" G

Next guy in:
Nick Sheridan, Freshman, 6'4" G

What line up should we play against the 5-0 Spiders?

Gotta go big against that line up. 3 Forwards and 2 Guards. Talk about dominating the paint.

adam914 · Unread post by **adam914** » 7 years ago

For those keeping score at home, not 1 second of 4 guards on the floor in the first half. Because well, we never really play with 4 guards all that much.

Gonebarongone · Unread post by **Gonebarongone** » 7 years ago

adam914 wrote:For those keeping score at home, not 1 second of 4 guards on the floor in the first half. Because well, we never really play with 4 guards all that much.

Lol. Either you are trolling or don't understand basketball. It doesn't matter what the letter next to their name in the program says. Or how tall they are.

theblueram · Unread post by **theblueram** » 7 years ago

Iverson is a guard.

adam914 · Unread post by **adam914** » 7 years ago

Gonebarongone wrote:
adam914 wrote:For those keeping score at home, not 1 second of 4 guards on the floor in the first half. Because well, we never really play with 4 guards all that much.
Lol. Either you are trolling or don't understand basketball. It doesn't matter what the letter next to their name in the program says. Or how tall they are.

Like I said earlier, you may not like the forwards we have, but that doesn't make them not forwards.

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 7 years ago

My first basketball post since being back.
As I've said 1,000 times, Hurley's obsession with guards
is trying to reinvent the wheel.
Look at the big boys and tell me who's playing four guards.
Don't come back with 6'8" guys with GUARD next to their name.
It's not as thought we have Hakeem the Dream in the middle
and four midgets surrounding him.
You need to rebound, and play interior defense.
Four guards is a fool's paradise.

giovanni · Unread post by **giovanni** » 7 years ago

It's clear he has a guard obsession. That is not debatable. But the replies always come back as, "the A 10 doesn't have a lot of big guys" , perhaps a mention of Villanova, who is a rarity and has special athletes, or something foolish like making a comparison to competing with Duke, KY and UNC which is idiotic to bring up. Yeah, there aren't a lot a great big guys, but there are big guys, even ones you have to develop. Look at Laysaard. What purpose is it serving him to sit on bench every minute? Even in early season games with 25 point leads, he can barely get 3 minutes. Sorry but you can only develop so much without PT. And its not like he is playing against a Patrick Ewing or Bill Walton is practice every day. KI is 6-9 yes, but the furthest thing from a true PF or a Center possible. I still believe this hurts his game, trying to fit the big as a "5". Not to mention, some of these teams that play smaller, like a Notre Dame, have a few guys who are flat out, knock down shooters and guys who can flat out score the ball. Sorry, I love our guys, but don't see that here.

Dan has said he would like us to be a Gonzaga type program or emulate what they have done. Has anyone every watched Gonzaga play the last decade? Even if these teams play with 3 guards, the also have a couple of big and physically big guys that are 6'10" to 7'1". I am sure there are going to be these guys make a comment on we are not Gonzaga or Kentucky, but I do have greater expectations for the potential of this program than being Richmond, which was mentioned, as they play very small. It really comes to what is expected. Instead of hoping or saying we can emulate Gonzaga or Wichita St, there are so many that say , at least we are not Fordham or Duquesne. This is URI, we should be happy. We could never do that. Expectations. I think Dan has an opinion closer to mine, unless he is totally full of crap.

bigappleram · Unread post by **bigappleram** » 7 years ago

Maybe we can table this until we see what the two big Mike's can do. I doubt DH would object to a 6'10" athletic rim protector, say in the mold of Jordan Hare minus the issues.

NYGFan_Section208 · Unread post by **NYGFan_Section208** » 7 years ago

There are big guys and yeah, some have to be developed. Holloway would look great on this team...last year, the only thing that stood out was that he was huge. He's still huge, but now he has some game. Anyone know how heavily recruited he was?

bigappleram · Unread post by **bigappleram** » 7 years ago

From what I can tell he was a 3 star, recruited by the likes of Drexel, Lasalle, Marshall and Temple.
So net net, similar to say Tertsea. Outlier is his weight, could have kept bigger schools away even if he had the ball skills/talent. Not sure don't follow recruiting as much as others here but on surface he looks to have the pedigree of the typical type big that the A10 attracts. Projects, not finished products.

bigappleram · Unread post by **bigappleram** » 7 years ago

My beef with our guards, is their savvy-ness...or lack thereof. Time & score, when to try and get fouled to get to the line (to say stop a run), positioning and angles...making the right play at the right time. You know, all the little things. Things someone like Scoochie Smith is a master at, Kyron Cartwright has it at PC, Rob Gray at Houston who owned us in last 10 minutes has it. The ability to steer and control a possession, or a stretch of time. Our 3 lead guards - JG, JT, EC - do not show this enough, if at all. Someone like Dowtin, already has, in a short period of time shown this more. It's the intangibles, and in a guard oriented game they matter a lot. And you would expect Juniors and Seniors that have logged a lot of minutes to display it in greater frequency.

ramster · Unread post by **ramster** » 7 years ago

Holloway has lost 60 pounds or so from last year. He has clearly improved his performance. He plays tough.

rambone 78 · Unread post by **rambone 78** » 7 years ago

Probably why Dan said in preseason practice that JD impressed him a lot......

If he keeps developing and Fatts is the real deal along the same lines, we might have a very high BB IQ backcourt going forward....

And that could make a big difference in our ability to win close games. Maybe Fatts can be our new Tyson Wheeler and Dowtin our Cat Mobley.

P.S. Adam is this post optimistic enough for you?

ramster · Unread post by **ramster** » 7 years ago

rambone 78 wrote:Probably why Dan said in preseason practice that JD impressed him a lot......

If he keeps developing and Fatts is the real deal along the same lines, we might have a very high BB IQ backcourt going forward....

And that could make a big difference in our ability to win close games. Maybe Fatts can be our new Tyson Wheeler and Dowtin our Cat Mobley.

P.S. Adam is this post optimistic enough for you?

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 7 years ago

Dowtin, the "new Cat Mobley"????
Seriously?
As for the guard glut that will remain in Kingston
for the immediate future:
Why does it have to be a center?
Ever hear of POWER FORWARDS?
The best we ever had was Kenny Green, playing along side
Bonzie Colson.
Or ARD with Luther Clay.
Or Jimmy Wright, or Will Daniels.
PFs are easier to find than centers.
Look at every team you see play on national games.
6'7-6'9" guys who can score, rebound and play defense.
You can win with these types.

giovanni · Unread post by **giovanni** » 7 years ago

For whatever reason, I have great hope and feelings on the potential of Tertsea in particular. Laysaard, too, I believe has potential, different type of player. If they both develop, they could be a real nice tandem of big guys, something we have never seen. But, until we see the type of development and progression I /we would like to see, it remains to be seen if this staff has the ability to bring along big guys to the point of being major contributors. Since Dan has been here, we haven't had a true big man or close to it. Yes, Hassan has been a great player for us, but he is not a true big guy. More of an undersized 4 who can play that spot very well no doubt. But, as far as true big guys, Laysaard, Tertsea and even Langevine, it remains to be seen if the guys to develop if Dan and the staff can transition this team into one that is more of an inside presence type of team.

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 7 years ago

I still think of Dan saying Martin reminded him of VCU's
Treveon Graham.
One guy is a smooth swingman, 3 point threat,
the other is Hassan.
The other was saying he couldn't take Pollard, because
he was too similar to Hassan.
One points to an odd player assessment.
The other, to only one inside player can play,
in Dan's mind.
Both headshakers.

adam914 · Unread post by **adam914** » 7 years ago

rambone 78 wrote:Probably why Dan said in preseason practice that JD impressed him a lot......

If he keeps developing and Fatts is the real deal along the same lines, we might have a very high BB IQ backcourt going forward....

And that could make a big difference in our ability to win close games. Maybe Fatts can be our new Tyson Wheeler and Dowtin our Cat Mobley.

P.S. Adam is this post optimistic enough for you?

Haha yes! I'll take it!

rambone 78 · Unread post by **rambone 78** » 7 years ago

Rod, I know that might be a stretch to say that Dowtin could be another Mobley.....ha ha....but when Mobley was a frosh nobody thought he'd end up as good as he did.

And yes, this team needs more bigs who can play......what we have now [the freshmen] who knows how good they'll be.

Dan should be focusing in that direction recruiting wise much more than it seems.

bigappleram · Unread post by **bigappleram** » 7 years ago

How many schollies do we have left for this year? He just brought in 3 big men (out of a 4 person class), isn't that an indication that he acknowledges the need. Tho Mobley developed his game over the years, he was always an athletic scorer from Day 1. No comparison to Dowtin, two different types of players.

bigappleram · Unread post by **bigappleram** » 7 years ago

Rod, u sure it was Graham and not Juvonte Reddic that he compared Hass to? Reddic was a force inside, comparison seems much more relevant.
If Graham, I'm with you, not sure what he saw. I will say this...I saw Hass play in high school, his game isn't all that different now than it was then. In the game I saw he stepped out and hit a 3, blocked a bunch of shots, and made some baby hooks over smaller guys. Sound familiar? 2+ years with ARD also has to be weighed here.