Big East - Basketball Only Schools Leaving

rambone 78 · Unread post by **rambone 78** » 11 years ago

The A10 has time on it's side. I think they will be proactive, and land some of the schools talked about. I also don't think ALL of the schools that are rumored to leave, will leave.

When the time comes, URI will be at or near the top of the A10.

The only question really, will the A10 actually move to drop a couple of schools, such as Fordham and StB. They might have to, in order to make the conference a more attractive choice. I could never see a school like UConn join the A10 otherwise. The TV money would have to be substantially increased also.

rjsuperfly66 · Unread post by **rjsuperfly66** » 11 years ago

I think you guys have the right idea --- Going with UCONN, Temple, Memphis, and others is risky, but might bring enough short-term gain to be a win.

Honestly, look at the A-10 without Xavier and Butler. That will leave you with VCU as the lone marquee program, and how marquee is it if this is the year Shaka Smart decides he has had enough and bolts for a higher-end BCS job? There are some teams there of value, but not enough at this point.

I think actively trying to shop the A-10 to these schools might be the best course of action, instead of thinking small like some mentioned Albany, Georgia St., Delaware, etc. Maybe you expand to 16, add in 4 football schools (UCONN, Temple, Memphis, and Cincinnati), with the 10 A-10 schools (excluded Butler, Xavier, Dayton, and UMASS), and then add two basketball-only schools (Creighton and George Mason). Honestly if I were UCONN, I'd prefer to be in a local conference, rather than a national-mess with Houston, UCF, San Diego St., etc.

That would be a very good conference, better than the new-look "Catholic" conference. The question will always be, do you want to sell your soul to the devil? Football drives the bus, and there are many options when UCONN or the others leave, specifically when the ACC is destroyed and the holdovers from that likely mess (Duke, Wake, BC, etc.) need a home for football/basketball. Maybe they stay for five years, maybe they stay for one before the ACC is destroyed and than there is no real benefit. You are back to square one.

It will always come down to the $$, but I think such a risky move could benefit the A-10 group longer than others might, maybe to the point they raid their own teams back after 5 or 10 years.

Every school definitely has to be prepared... This fire could end quickly with a lot of things obvious in 6-8 weeks.

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 11 years ago

The ACC will live forever.
It's not the Big East. It was the first real conference, with the first post season tournament, and will remain so.
I don't get what you're saying about the ACC at all.
Why not talk about the SEC being destroyed, while you're at it?
UConn currently has no place to go. BC will always block them to the ACC.
Their football isn't attractive enough to be SEC or Big Ten.
Again, I think Memphis, Cincy, Tulane, Houston, and SMU, will revert to CUSA.
That leaves UConn, Temple and UCF as orphans.
What better place to land than the A-10?
Don't understimate the power of the UConn women's basketball program, either.
You can add the number one women's program in any sport, to the A-10's women's programs,
and boost them up, too.

RF1 · Unread post by **RF1** » 11 years ago

Big East's Catholic 7 Needs Reality Check ... And National League

BY Jack Kerwin | December 17 2012 5:55 PM

http://www.ibtimes.com/sportsnet/big-ea ... gue-945432

gorhody89 · Unread post by **gorhody89** » 11 years ago

Uconn really is stuck if the ACC won't take them because of BC...they cannot join the Big10 because they have laws that each school must border a state which includes another big10 school...uconns only option seems to be to stay with the other football schools of the big east...I don't see them joining the A10 ever

rjsuperfly66 · Unread post by **rjsuperfly66** » 11 years ago

rodfromcranston wrote:The ACC will live forever.
It's not the Big East. It was the first real conference, with the first post season tournament, and will remain so.
I don't get what you're saying about the ACC at all.
Why not talk about the SEC being destroyed, while you're at it?
UConn currently has no place to go. BC will always block them to the ACC.
Their football isn't attractive enough to be SEC or Big Ten.
Again, I think Memphis, Cincy, Tulane, Houston, and SMU, will revert to CUSA.
That leaves UConn, Temple and UCF as orphans.
What better place to land than the A-10?
Don't understimate the power of the UConn women's basketball program, either.
You can add the number one women's program in any sport, to the A-10's women's programs,
and boost them up, too.

Well maybe I worded wrong, maybe the ACC lives, but it could be decimated. There are many reports that some combination of UNC, Virginia, and G-Tech could be going to the Big 10, and if that shoe drops, FSU, Miami, Clemson, and VT would then bolt to the Big 12, leaving Duke, Wake, NC St., Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Boston College, Louisville and one of UNC, Viginia, and G-Tech as the ugly step-children.

If that were to happen, they now need football/basketball teams to join them, which would leave UCONN and others as very likely candidates. Does UCONN still get shut out if your options are limited to Memphis, UCF, USF, SMU, Houston, etc.? Let's be honest, the money in the B10 and other conferences is basically double the ACC. If they can figure out how to pony up on the $50 million exit fees, that could be the next pillar to fall. After all, there can only be 4, 16-team major conferences.

Regardless, if that doesn't happen, I think they are stupid for still talking "football," and trying to form a national conference with Boise, San Diego St., Houston, etc.

Rhode_Island_Red · Unread post by **Rhode_Island_Red** » 11 years ago

I don't know about Temple, but UConn has invested too much money (and tapped a number of seven-figure donors) in its football program to join the Atlantic 10, which would be seen as an abandonment of football. The UConn administration should be in Chestnut Hill, Mass., washing the cars and doing the laundry of all the administrators at Boston College begging them to get off their high horses and let them in to the ACC.

As for the Sacred Seven, they can do whatever they want. Whatever television money and exposure they think they're going to get when they break off will dry up within a couple of years when the BCS cartel vacuums up all the airtime. Then they'll be just like us, except with Roman collars.

Rhody74 · Unread post by **Rhody74** » 11 years ago

UConn burned too many bridges with BC when the Eagles left. If UConn makes it into the ACC it'll only be over BC's objections or because some other catastrophic development.

OBRAM · Unread post by **OBRAM** » 11 years ago

So where does Rhody fit in? URI is not like any of the Catholic 7. It is a State University and large, more like UNH, Delaware, James Madison, VCU, UMass and for that matter Stony Brook. In basketball, no one paid much attention to CAA basketball until George Mason went to the final 4 , and then VCU. All these new super conferences are bad for all sports except football where you have very few games, and only one game a week. All other sports suffer. Cincinnati's closest conference game now will be 800 miles away, nice for the volleyball and tennis teams? URI can still play a Butler or Xavier even if they are not in the A-10, so geography should matter more in a conference that does not have FBS football.

Gonebarongone · Unread post by **Gonebarongone** » 11 years ago

UConn burned a ton of bridges by personally suing the players involved (DeFillipo and Leahy) but most of the parties are already gone (Deflippo, Calhoun, The AD and Pres of UConn). But, the driving forces in Louisville getting an invite over UConn were FSU and Clemson. They wanted a relatively more Southern school that had a chance to be a football force. Especially after the last three ACC invites are BC, Pitt, and Cuse. BC wouldn't want UConn but this was to appease FSU and Clemson more than anything.

Rhode_Island_Red · Unread post by **Rhode_Island_Red** » 11 years ago

Actually, UConn itself doesn't deserve as much blame for the lawsuits as Dick Blumenthal, at the time the grandstanding publicity-hogging attorney general. He made a big show of suing Boston College and the ACC, but most, if not all, of those lawsuits died very quiet deaths.

Ramblinrose · Unread post by **Ramblinrose** » 11 years ago

I'm not sure how much clout BC has in the ACC. Both UCONN basketball programs are more appealing that BC basketball or football, though BC football is more attractive than UCONN football.
I think the ironic part of the implosion of the Big East is that Dave Gavitt made the league hugely successful and popular in basketball, to the point where it became appealing for football schools to jump in.
I think the A-10 is in potentially its best shape ever, but less so if X and Dayton say goodbye. Butler, too.

CT Rhody · Unread post by **CT Rhody** » 11 years ago

Interesting insider article on ESPN today how the BE7 are overated. They did an analysis over the past 12 seasons and if they added butler and Xavier, they would be program number #1 & #3 in the conference over the last 12 years. Even more amusing was if the league goes with 12 schools, the BE7 would have 4 of the bottom 5 ranked teams over that time. It's amazing how perception and not reality is driving the basketball market these days. The A10 needs to offload 2-4 schools and make these teams realize that they truly aren't joining a better league but a worse one. You can hide behind opinions, but not the facts.

RIFan · Unread post by **RIFan** » 11 years ago

That's what I said earlier...it would be addition by subtraction-drop the dead weight!. The Marquette AD has a warped sense of self importance. G'town winning a championship almost 30 years ago means nothing.

section(105) · Unread post by **section(105)** » 11 years ago

Exactly how does any league "off load" schools?? Can't believe I am gonna say this, but this must be part of a process........other than wishing a school off the island.

RIFan · Unread post by **RIFan** » 11 years ago

Here's the problem. Those who follow college BBall closely, know the TBN7 are a bunch of teams whose heyday is well in the rearview mirror. They have been posing as big time schools because of who they have been fortunate enough to associate themselves with: Big-time by association. But to the casual observer, they are big time schools (well at least 3 of them are) with household names. They don't know that they have been fairly mediocre at best, for the past 10-15 years. So, as I said before, if some TV exec who is out of his mind, decides to pay and give air time based on long ago earned reps and not actual recent performance, then they will in fact become a powerful conference...self-fulfilling prophecy.

Seawrightspostgame · Unread post by **Seawrightspostgame** » 11 years ago

I am relieved to see some media coverage pointing out the fact that the C7s have only similar success in basketball as the A10.

I agree coaching is a huge factor, X's coach, Brad Stevens, Smart at VCU, and even Mooney at Richmond have all stayed when other teams came to woo them away. They all have juiced up salaries at their current situation and the 5-10 jobs that are worth leaving their current situation for, are all locked up by legends. So I think they all stay and believe in themselves considering their recent success. Social Media and the internet has made the world much smaller and I just think coaches don't have to jump to a new job unless they have that in them. And none of these guys have jumped yet, so why would they when they all look good this year. Butler just beat Indiana! #1!? two title runs!? Stevens is staying and they are paying him.

MORE Importantly I have been thinking that Hurley will stay at URI if we have success. I thought I read that he turned down a scholarship from DUKE to go to SHU. So he goes against the grain. If he gets this program cooking with wins and fan support in the stands(which will come-- just 06,07,08 there was good support) I bet he stays. He wont go back to SHU either because I am sure he knows URI is a better gig with support.

I bet URI comes out on top in this mess going forward. Dooley put 500k into the campus house for gods sake! Dooley does things big! SO I believe that URI is headed back to the success of yesterday and even beyond. GO RHODY

ramster · Unread post by **ramster** » 11 years ago

Catholic 7 not very impressive performance in the 2011-2012 Big East Basketball Season.
The A10 has created themselves a strong hand to play the past few years.
5 of The 7 teams are Bottom Feeders with the exception of Marquette and Georgetown from last year's season.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketb ... r-poaching

Will be interesting to see how Bernedette handles this year. She has handled herself and the A10 conference well - I wouldn't count her out as Mr Goodman seems to do

2011–12 Big East men's basketball standings
#2 Syracuse 17 – 1
#11 Marquette 14 – 4 Catholic 7
Notre Dame 13 – 5
Cincinnati 12 – 6
#15 Georgetown 12 – 6 Catholic 7
South Florida 12 – 6
#17 Louisville† 10 – 8
West Virginia 9 – 9
Connecticut 8 – 10
Seton Hall 8 – 10 Catholic 7
Rutgers 6 – 12
St. John's 6 – 12 Catholic 7
Pittsburgh 5 – 13
Villanova 5 – 13 Catholic 7
Providence 4 – 14 Catholic 7
DePaul 3 – 15 Catholic 7

RIFan · Unread post by **RIFan** » 11 years ago

Did you see this comparison between the current A10 and the TBN7

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketb ... tlantic-10

The problem remains...if the TBN7 score a nice TV deal this will all mean nothing.

rjsuperfly66 · Unread post by **rjsuperfly66** » 11 years ago

It will always return back to this argument:

What do you consider worse? Going 4-14 in one of the best conferences in America, or going 9-9 in a lesser conference? I don't want to degrade the A-10 here, but there is no comparing the old-school Big East to last year's A-10.

Going 9-9 would have given a school like PC a 20-11 regular season record, probably obtainable in the A-10 last year. Instead, they had a 15-16 regular season record before dropping their BET game. It's a hypothetical, but a fair probability given the weakness in the bottom half of the A-10.

Can you really compare W/L when comparing a lot of the A-10 schools to the BE schools? That will always be the argument.

rambone 78 · Unread post by **rambone 78** » 11 years ago

The weak bottom half of the A10 is why the Marquette AD wants nothing to do with us, I would think.

For the C7 to come on board, the A10 is going to have to prune a few weak sisters, and soon.

Thank God for the Hurleys, or we'd be one of them.

RIFan · Unread post by **RIFan** » 11 years ago

That's not what this is about...it's about how good are the TBN7 actually...fact vs fiction. Fact the current A10 is better. Not last years A10 vs last years BE.

A10s problem is weak bottom teams that limited TV contract. TBN7s strength...all decent teams who get to add teams and shop around for a TV deal.

ramster · Unread post by **ramster** » 11 years ago

rjsuperfly66 wrote:It will always return back to this argument:

What do you consider worse? Going 4-14 in one of the best conferences in America, or going 9-9 in a lesser conference? I don't want to degrade the A-10 here, but there is no comparing the old-school Big East to last year's A-10.

Going 9-9 would have given a school like PC a 20-11 regular season record, probably obtainable in the A-10 last year. Instead, they had a 15-16 regular season record before dropping their BET game. It's a hypothetical, but a fair probability given the weakness in the bottom half of the A-10.

Can you really compare W/L when comparing a lot of the A-10 schools to the BE schools? That will always be the argument.

There is no comparison because the Big East no longer exists as it once did. The power schools have departed.
The A10 has continued to strength itself under the direction of Bernedette McGlade.............I would not count her out in the big scheme of things. She has been a force in turning around and improving the A10.

RIFan · Unread post by **RIFan** » 11 years ago

Why don't the top 10 A10 teams break away form the A10 and start from scratch? Fight fire with fire. Shop a deal that would include adding Marquette, G'town, 'Nova and one of the NY teams for the market.

rjsuperfly66 · Unread post by **rjsuperfly66** » 11 years ago

ramster wrote:
rjsuperfly66 wrote:It will always return back to this argument:

What do you consider worse? Going 4-14 in one of the best conferences in America, or going 9-9 in a lesser conference? I don't want to degrade the A-10 here, but there is no comparing the old-school Big East to last year's A-10.

Going 9-9 would have given a school like PC a 20-11 regular season record, probably obtainable in the A-10 last year. Instead, they had a 15-16 regular season record before dropping their BET game. It's a hypothetical, but a fair probability given the weakness in the bottom half of the A-10.

Can you really compare W/L when comparing a lot of the A-10 schools to the BE schools? That will always be the argument.
There is no comparison because the Big East no longer exists as it once did. The power schools have departed.
The A10 has continued to strength itself under the direction of Bernedette McGlade.............I would not count her out in the big scheme of things. She has been a force in turning around and improving the A10.

You are 100% right. That BE doesn't exist anymore, and a majority of the power teams are gone.

But the results of the C7 occurred under that old BE. That can't be discounted. That was my only point. It's unfair to point at what PC, SHU, St. John's, and DePaul did in the Big East from a W/L perspective and compare it to the A-10. It's impossible to do, because who knows how the BE teams would have performed in the A-10 in that time frame, or vice-versa. Just because they haven't been great BE teams means they would have been bad A-10 teams. They probably would have been middle of the pack.

The A-10 will survive by making the right additions. Holding on to the dream that part or all of the C7 is coming in probably isn't the right course, but looking for other possibilities, that's where it lies, whether getting creative with football and building a bigger conference, or adding some of the remaining "mid-majors" and keeping a smaller conference, or maybe a little of both.

RIFan · Unread post by **RIFan** » 11 years ago

Without being in the BE you think they would be even as good as they were? Without BE money, TV and name recognition you think they would be similar teams with similar recruits? So you are saying these schools with all the advantages of the BE would only been middle of the road in the A10. If these schools had been in the A10 without any of the advantages of the BE, how good would they have been?

rjsuperfly66 · Unread post by **rjsuperfly66** » 11 years ago

RIFan wrote:Without being in the BE you think they would be even as good as they were? Without BE money, TV and name recognition you think they would be similar teams with similar recruits? So you are saying these schools with all the advantages of the BE would only been middle of the road in the A10. If these schools had been in the A10 without any of the advantages of the BE, how good would they have been?

What tangible number does that though? I agree with your thoughts, 100%. It has, and will always come down to coaching, and those schools have lacked a lot of direction, especially over the past five years. Honestly, I think Ed Cooley would be doing a very similar job in the BE or A10, just like you have seen with Hurley.

But to argue that the bottom of the C7 sucks because of W/L, I don't think that makes that argument at all. I just don't think it's a fair comparison. But you guys are smart of the most part, we can always agree to disagree.

RIFan · Unread post by **RIFan** » 11 years ago

If there was no advantage to being in the old BE then what's the big deal about conference affiliation? The fact is, those teams were only able to attract mid-level A10 talent to BE teams. With less money, less TV exposure and less Conference name recognition what level recruits would they have? The Bottom 4 teams are only in this conversation because Marquette, G'Town and 'Nova need 7 schools to keep the automatic bid for the new conference. Once again, Big Time by association, not merit.

rambone 78 · Unread post by **rambone 78** » 11 years ago

Good point, RIFan.

Rhodymob05 · Unread post by **Rhodymob05** » 11 years ago

with butler and vcu recently switching conferences like many other schools, could they switch again so soon? Is there an NCAA rule on conference switching within a certain amount of years?

rjsuperfly66 · Unread post by **rjsuperfly66** » 11 years ago

RIFan wrote:If there was no advantage to being in the old BE then what's the big deal about conference affiliation? The fact is, those teams were only able to attract mid-level A10 talent to BE teams. With less money, less TV exposure and less Conference name recognition what level recruits would they have? The Bottom 4 teams are only in this conversation because Marquette, G'Town and 'Nova need 7 schools to keep the automatic bid for the new conference. Once again, Big Time by association, not merit.

There absolutely was an advantage to being in the old Big East, it was one of the best basketball conferences in the country, year after year. The talent you saw on the court every night was amazing, as well as the arenas, but Shaka Smart and Brad Stevens have shown you don't need to be in a power conference to win games in March, you just need good, passionate coaching. If you put a good coach like Cooley in a slightly lesser conference (talent-wise), I still think he would have been a dynamic recruiter. After all, all his big recruits signed their LOIs after Pitt, Syracuse, and WVU left for greener pastures, so he didn't necessarily recruit them under the "old-Big East."

If you want to say PC has been terrible the past decade, you won't get much of an argument for me. The only time I'll pipe up is when someone would say (these aren't real numbers), "PC sucks, they have been like 60-65 the past five years, but Duquesne, they went 70-55 in that time, why would people choose PC over Duquesne?" It's exactly why the other three schools would be willing to stay with PC and others. It's why others would be willing to join their conference. They know some teams are stronger than their records might dictate, but if the rest of the world wants to just look at W/L, they will always be a day late and a dollar short when it comes to expansion, because there is more to it than that.

rambone 78 · Unread post by **rambone 78** » 11 years ago

I will agree on that point. In the old BE, if you were say, 15-15, that would have been the equivalent of a 20 win A10 team, due to the overall strength of the BE versus the A10.

Nowadays, that argument isn't as strong. Going forward, the new BE or whatever, won't be that much better than the A10. And, if the A10 does dump the bottom feeders, and adds a few stronger programs to replace them, there really won't be any difference. Then maybe the TV money will also more or less even out down the road.

rjsuperfly66 · Unread post by **rjsuperfly66** » 11 years ago

rambone 78 wrote:I will agree on that point. In the old BE, if you were say, 15-15, that would have been the equivalent of a 20 win A10 team, due to the overall strength of the BE versus the A10.

Nowadays, that argument isn't as strong. Going forward, the new BE or whatever, won't be that much better than the A10. And, if the A10 does dump the bottom feeders, and adds a few stronger programs to replace them, there really won't be any difference. Then maybe the TV money will also more or less even out down the road.

I agree completely, anyone who can't is in denial. The Big East as it was was going to be a trainwreck, very top-heavy with a ton of dead-weight basketball wise at the bottom. The new Big East won't be as talented at the top but will probably be very consistent 1-10, should be at least a 4 big conference every year.

But that's why I think it's stupid to take into account RPI or anything that heavily uses W/L. Just because PC's W/L was .500 and the A-10 may have had something like 12 teams with a .500 or better record in that time doesn't mean all of those teams at that time were better than PC. It's the benefit of getting an experienced and making a run every few years against a weaker conference. When PC did that back in 08-09, the best they could get was up to #8 in the conference, just not enough fire power. They couldn't go on the road and win big games at Louisville, UCONN, etc. That season, the BE put 3 teams as #1 seeds, and 2 of them into the F4, and four teams into the E8, and 5 to the S16. The A-10 in contrast, sent 1 team to the S16 and 0 teams to the E8.

The only real difference between the A-10 adding a few stronger programs and the Big East will probably be in the money via TV. That's about it. I think the A-10 top to bottom would be weaker, but you guys know that. Crap cans like Fordham never help in any argument, gotta get 'em out. If 3 or 4 programs were cleaned out, that would spell a decent conference. I don't know if I'd put it up there yet with the C7+3, but it'd be close.

Unread post by **ATPTourFan** » 11 years ago

Superfly, you make some good points, but in my mind the end-of-year RPIs are fair to use because while PC's win-loss may have been lower due to the more difficult in-conference play, they enjoyed an even larger benefit from being in the conf.

Only 25% of a team's RPI rank is impacted by their own W-L record, but 75% is related to who they play and who their opponents play. So at worst, it's a wash and we CAN consider RPI as a comparison.

PC was also able to rack up many wins at home OOC because of this RPI fact, since they knew of the immense benefit to RPI just by competing in Big East conf play.

By comparison, the teams in the A10 play a more balanced OOC schedule and usually need to go on the road to play any top competition.

Even if you look at non-RPI based Non-Conf SOS rankings, look what PC has been able to do outside the Big East over the years when the Big East was strongest (last 5 or 6 seasons). Very, Very weak schedule resulting in strong OOC W-L records with many home buy games. I don't see them being able to continue this practice in a new conference.

Providence OOC SOS Rankings by Year per KenPom.com

Code: Select all

Year OOC SOS Ranking 
2013 325 (to-date)
2012 341
2011 329
2010 224
2009 223
2008 136
2007 222
2006 115
2005 79
2004 60
2003 53

RIFan · Unread post by **RIFan** » 11 years ago

What I am trying to say is that the bottom 4 teams in the TBN7 have not been, and are not currently as good as the top teams in the current A10. They fall in the middle of the A10. Which brings us to the sad reailty that we (A10) have 3-4 bottom dwellers dragging the whole thing down.

Even with being in the old BE, these teams are middle of the pack in the current A10. So, trying to compare how they would due if they had been in the A10 all along is futile, since their recruiting would have been diferent; and one assumes more difficult based on the reality of the old BE and A10.

spookydog · Unread post by **spookydog** » 11 years ago

Can the A-10 even dump the lower performing schools? Is this even a viable option? Has it been done before at another conference?

All teams that left the A-10 (basketball wise - Penn St, Pitt, Rutgers, Villanova, VA Tech, & WVU [am I missing any?]) did so on their own, correct?

RIFan · Unread post by **RIFan** » 11 years ago

Not sure if we can dump them...that's why last night I suggested the top 10 A10 teams break away. If the TBN7 can do it why not us?

RIFan · Unread post by **RIFan** » 11 years ago

We should not stand for teams that refuse to improve and invest. Find like minded schools and bolt!

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 11 years ago

Well, Lasalle and Duquesne have put millions into revamping their facilities
even though they're small.
Fordham is the one that sticks out like a sore thumb.
What would be the criteria, for defining committment?

RIFan · Unread post by **RIFan** » 11 years ago

Everyone knows which schools have not been able to make it in the A10 for various reasons: LaSalle, Duquesne, Fordham and to a lesser extent St Bonnies. We should never have let Duquesne back in.

rjsuperfly66 · Unread post by **rjsuperfly66** » 11 years ago

ATPTourFan wrote:Superfly, you make some good points, but in my mind the end-of-year RPIs are fair to use because while PC's win-loss may have been lower due to the more difficult in-conference play, they enjoyed an even larger benefit from being in the conf.

Only 25% of a team's RPI rank is impacted by their own W-L record, but 75% is related to who they play and who their opponents play. So at worst, it's a wash and we CAN consider RPI as a comparison.

PC was also able to rack up many wins at home OOC because of this RPI fact, since they knew of the immense benefit to RPI just by competing in Big East conf play.

By comparison, the teams in the A10 play a more balanced OOC schedule and usually need to go on the road to play any top competition.

Even if you look at non-RPI based Non-Conf SOS rankings, look what PC has been able to do outside the Big East over the years when the Big East was strongest (last 5 or 6 seasons). Very, Very weak schedule resulting in strong OOC W-L records with many home buy games. I don't see them being able to continue this practice in a new conference.

Providence OOC SOS Rankings by Year per KenPom.com
Code: Select all
Year OOC SOS Ranking 
2013 325 (to-date)
2012 341
2011 329
2010 224
2009 223
2008 136
2007 222
2006 115
2005 79
2004 60
2003 53

You are absolutely right. Back in the mid-2000s when the team was good with Gomes, Tim Welsh was extremely competitive with his scheduling. He did a neutral (in Florida)-home-home with the Gators, back when they were one of the best teams in the country. He did a home-home with Memphis, the first year playing there before getting them in 2005 with that loaded roster. They also got some invites to some good tournaments. Back in 2003, they were invited to play #8 Illinois in the Jimmy V, and in 04-05, they played in the Preseason NIT, where they got to the semi-final round at MSG, where they played #1 Wake Forest and than a pretty good Michigan team.

The other thing at play was their committed games. For a while, BC even when they left for the ACC was a Top 25 team, and then an NCAA team. URI for a while was a very competitive, bubble NCAA team. PC has decided to be an active participant in the Big East/SEC challenge, but repeatedly have drawn terrible opponents.

And if you look at this year, injuries cost them in that preseason tournament. The course of action went way different.

What Happened: UMASS (103) --> Penn St. (184) --> UNC-Asheville (145)

What could have happened healthy: UMASS (103) ---> NC St. (29) --> Tennessee (64)

Big East/SEC Challenge: They draw a home game against Mississippi St. (224). Last year it was a road game against a bad South Carolina team.

And then throw in how bad BC (186) and URI (188) have been over the past 2+ seasons. That used to be a regular game in the Top 50 for the most part.

I feel it's partially bad breaks, partially poor scheduling. But if the schedule breaks better, you are talking about a pretty challenging OOC schedule and not a crappy easy one. It's really those committed games being against bad opponents which destroys it.

Trust me, for anyone who halfway checks out the Scout site over the past two years, I've been overly critical about getting excited about putting up a lot of W's against bad opponents. I will say though, there is something different about this team, this year. I don't think it means NCAA, and maybe not even .500 in the Big East, but watching Kris Dunn last night, and the team playing defense, hard defense, it's just different. This isn't a Welsh or Keno Davis team anymore.

RIFan · Unread post by **RIFan** » 11 years ago

the Rams won 20 games in 2010-2011 and had an RPI around 100 (+-). I would just edit your comment about URI being a bad game for you the last 3 years.

Rhody Guy · Unread post by **Rhody Guy** » 11 years ago

Just some fairly straight forward stats that can't really be twisted. PC has actually fared well against the A10 over the last several years albeit the bottom half of the A10 excluding the win against Temple in 2007.

2007:
Thu, Nov 15 Temple W 66-64
Tue, Dec 4 at Rhode Island L 60-77

2008:
Fri, Nov 28 at Charlotte W 67-62
Sat, Dec 6 Rhode Island W 66-65

2009:
Sat, Dec 5 at Rhode Island L 82-86
Wed, Dec 9 at Geo. Washington W 110-97

2010:
Tue, Nov 23 La Salle L 73-84
Sat, Dec 4 Rhode Island W 87-74

2011:
Fri, Dec 23 at Rhode Island W 80-61

Rhody Guy · Unread post by **Rhody Guy** » 11 years ago

Forgot this year.

2012:
Thu, Nov 15 at Massachusetts L 75-77
Thu, Dec 6 Rhode Island W 72-57

RIFan · Unread post by **RIFan** » 11 years ago

Yes, it appears that they have played fairly close games against middle of the pack teams.

Rhody74 · Unread post by **Rhody74** » 11 years ago

Football schools looking to beef up the western flank: http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootbal ... n-football

bigappleram · Unread post by **bigappleram** » 11 years ago

is there something written in to their bylaw of the BE7 that they must stick together.

b/c what i dont get is why the A10 has to sit back and wait to see what happens.

this is a giant negotiation, with member schools and tv broadcasters. in this negotiation it is not like the BE7 is operating from a place of insurmountable strength, they are trying to make the best of their situation and to do so they will have to poach the A10. why isnt it possible for the A10 to be pro-active and try to renegotiate a tv package under the assumption of dropping some dead weight and stealing Gtown, Marquette or St Johns (or some combo thereof) and adding them to our current league on the rise. give us 2 of those 3, drop 2 or 3 of our dead weight, and you absolutely have a more valuable league than the BE7 + 3 teams poached from the A10.

perhaps this is what our league and presidents are contemplating, but it does not seem impossible and is a much better plan than sitting back and waiting to see who the BE7 will steal. The BE is a brand, and a powerful one that will be attractive to teams in our league regardless of its diluted form. But at the end of the day money and long term prosperity will be the deciding factor, and it just seems to me it has to be possible to create a scenario where schools like X, Butler, Dayton or VCU can make just as much money by staying put as they may by flying the coup. Add 1-2 power programs to our existing core and we automatically are the best non BCS basketball conference.

maybe this is a pipe dream.

rambone 78 · Unread post by **rambone 78** » 11 years ago

The BE7 has to leave together to get the auto bid for a new conference, also so they don't have to pay the exit fees. In return for no exit fees however, they will have to wait 27 months to leave.

I think that means they would have to join the A10 in toto also. The only chance the A10 has to absorb them imo, is if the A10 agrees to drop the weak links at the bottom, and also renegotiates a new, more lucrative TV deal.

I would think TV would be agreeable to doing that, don't you think? What a deal for the remaining A10 teams! If at least 7 to 9 of the A10 teams, that have been together for at least 5 years, leave and join up with the BE7, a win win for all involved.

That woul be one heck of a 16 team conference. As long as Rhody is one of those 9 teams.

RIFan · Unread post by **RIFan** » 11 years ago

That is exactly what I was saying...rethink everything. The A10 is not sacred...why don't we become the aggressor?

The only reason those 7 schools are staying together is to maintain their automatic bid to the NCAA tourney...you need a minimum of 7 schools who have been together a certain #of years to keep that bid.

rambone 78 · Unread post by **rambone 78** » 11 years ago

On the subject of football, it's ridiculous that the BE is looking at west coast teams to join with them.

How could they possibly keep the BE name? 2500 mile road trips all over the place?

I would think they should give the C7 the BE name.

Their new name should be the National Mediocre College Football League.