Big East - Basketball Only Schools Leaving

[ATPTourFan]

Not surprising OBRAM. At least they're not being tagged as a team to be dropped, either.

[Ramulous]

The future lies in the hands of the Xavier administration....if they choose to join Georgetown, StJohn, etc then the A-10 will also lose Dayton and quite possibly others....

Posters all over the place are saying they know what X will do....but I believe no one knows for sure.

[daytonflyerfan]

I think the XU administration would jump at the chance to be in with the BE7. Another potential variable is what happens to the University of Cincinnati, which wants out of the BE. UC would not be open to being in the same conference as X.

I know that a lot of the X fans all want to be in with the BE7, and the X fans also want to drop the bottom teams in the A10. The Dayton fans, just like everybody else, don't want to be left behind.

[twisted3829]

the A10 teams could have the power if X, Dayton, SLU, VCU, Butler, St Joe's, URI, Richmond and 1 more make a pack to stay together as 9 no matter what. That way they either all merge with the BE7 or start to pick a couple off

[TruePoint]

1. Cincinnati is not going with the Carholic schools. Part of the reason the C7 want out is that they are upset with UC for campaigning openly to get into the ACC. But beyond that, Cincinnati needs to find a permanent home for its football program - a program they are clearly committed to based on their recent history of hiring, producing and replacing head coaches. Following the C7 for basketball would basically end any chance that their football program remains (or becomes, depending on your perspective) relevant.

2. I don't think it really matters what Xavier's, or anyone's, fans want. If you told me that you have sources that say Xavier's administration felt the same way, that would matter. But administrations and fans aren't looking at the same data or even considering the same factors when thinking about these things.

[daytonflyerfan]

1. Cincinnati is not going with the Carholic schools. Part of the reason the C7 want out is that they are upset with UC for campaigning openly to get into the ACC. But beyond that, Cincinnati needs to find a permanent home for its football program - a program they are clearly committed to based on their recent history of hiring, producing and replacing head coaches. Following the C7 for basketball would basically end any chance that their football program remains (or becomes, depending on your perspective) relevant.

2. I don't think it really matters what Xavier's, or anyone's, fans want. If you told me that you have sources that say Xavier's administration felt the same way, that would matter. But administrations and fans aren't looking at the same data or even considering the same factors when thinking about these things.

Well, it wasn't just UC openly campaigning, Louisville and UConn did the exact same thing. And Louisville and UConn seemed to be the front-runners in that regard, UC didn't start to openly campaign until after Louisville and UConn had already been campaigning.

I don't have any sources. I guess I'm thinking though that the alumni/boosters do have influence here though, don't they? I mean don't URI alumni/boosters have some influence over the URI administration? A lot of the X alumni/boosters want to be in with the BE7 because joining with the BE7 is an improvement over the current makeup of the A10.

[TruePoint]

Well right, but we were only talking about UC as it relates to Xavier, so I didn't see how Louisville and UConn were involved. But yes, the C7 are upset with all of them (although LVille succeeded so they could care less). I'm just saying UC isn't going to be in the same league as the C7 when the smoke clears, but you can certainly say the same for UConn - we just weren't talking about them.

[Brutus]

XU has already told the BE bballers that they'd love to join them if they split from the footballers, take that to the bank.

[peeps4life]

http://espnwisconsin.com/common/more.ph ... t_id=16611

this doesn't sound like a school that is interested in being "picked off" by the a10 as a conference. quite the opposite.

“When you think about the A-10, I don’t even really view the remnants of the Big East in the same light as I do the A-10. There’s no Georgetown in the A-10. Georgetown has won a national championship. There’s no Marquette in the A-10. They’ve not won a national championship in their history. They have a couple of good schools and they have some nice quality across the board, but I certainly, and I know I’m being sort of a homer here, but I certainly think the Big East basketball schools present a profile that is superior to what the depth of the A-10 is.”

“On the Catholic concept… Now I’m a Catholic. I’m really comfortable in that environment, but I would be careful to define something so narrowly as to someone’s religious tradition. There’s some really good basketball played at VCU. There’s this pace down in Indiana that has made a couple appearances in the final game.”

[rodfromcranston]

So many experts coming here, with such inside info, on who talked to who.
Marquette doesn't wag the dog. Bigmouth AD or not.

[TruePoint]

As I said in the other thread, beware of posturing right now. Everyone has an agenda and an idea of what is in their best interests. Public comments will be designed to produce the desired outcome, not to share information in the hope of informing the public.

[peeps4life]

the a10 wags the dog... my bad i forgot.

[giovanni]

Georgetown won a national championship in 1984 and Yale was nationally ranked in football in 1968. Different time, different era. They won with the power of the original big east, not the current configuration.

Besides Villanova, do any of these schools even have decent on campus arenas? St Johns, Villanova and Marquette may have good size fan bases and very good programs, Georgetown also a very good program, but all accomplished with money and power of affiliation of the old big east. What makes these schools, the bottom 3 in particular attractive without the big east as it has was?

[BFC]

Georgetown won a national championship in 1984 and Yale was nationally ranked in football in 1968. Different time, different era. They won with the power of the original big east, not the current configuration.

Besides Villanova, do any of these schools even have decent on campus arenas? St Johns, Villanova and Marquette may have good size fan bases and very good programs, Georgetown also a very good program, but all accomplished with money and power of affiliation of the old big east. What makes these schools, the bottom 3 in particular attractive without the big east as it has was?

Their markets and brand names make them attractive to ESPN and ESPN "wags the dog" unfortunately.

[rjsuperfly66]

I agree with most of you guys on everything.

A few things: The things that bottom 3 of the Big East have is the power of association. Honestly, unless Villanova or Georgetown or St. John's bolt for the ACC or something like that, they are better off in strength in numbers and staying with PC. Providence, Seton Hall, and DePaul are not juggernauts, but think about where else they go? Do 'Nova and Gtown leave PC to join A-10? Doubtful.

Two: Who cares about on-campus arenas? Big East for the most part plays in arenas. Those arenas might not always draw the best, but thats the way the conference is for the most part.

Three: Root for Gonzaga. The reason you never hear URI is because most of the talk is about a 12 team conference. I think if the conference invites 'Zaga, the puzzle changes significantly.

[giovanni]

Georgetown won a national championship in 1984 and Yale was nationally ranked in football in 1968. Different time, different era. They won with the power of the original big east, not the current configuration.

Besides Villanova, do any of these schools even have decent on campus arenas? St Johns, Villanova and Marquette may have good size fan bases and very good programs, Georgetown also a very good program, but all accomplished with money and power of affiliation of the old big east. What makes these schools, the bottom 3 in particular attractive without the big east as it has was?

Their markets and brand names make them attractive to ESPN and ESPN "wags the dog" unfortunately.

Lets face it, college sports as a whole in the northeast is not big. It's not The mid Atlantic, Indiana or Kentucky. How much interest nationally is there really in a Seton Hall - PC game or SH - DePaul? The big markets mean a lot more when you throw in Syracuse, Louisville, ND or Pitt. When Gavitt formed the big east he had a great vision and created what turned out to be the most powerful basketball conference along side the acc. But that was 1970's and college basketball was still very big in northeast. With all due respect to PC, DePaul, Marquette, St.johns, their programs are only a mirror of what they were in the 70's. going forward without the money and lure of the old big east, how attractive are these programs even in big markets? Atlanta a big market, but the NHL didn't sell it there just because its a big market. I question the interest tv marketing executives have in these schools down the line?

[giovanni]

Two: Who cares about on-campus arenas? Big East for the most part plays in arenas. Those arenas might not always draw the best, but thats the way the conference is for the


Nice facilities and on campus arenas mean something to recruits. And good recruits means winning. Winning is the bottom line. Take the affiliation away from the old big east and what difference do you have in recruiting for those schools? It then becomes a matter of liking school and surroundings, coach and success. Without big east label does PC recruit Ricky Ledo, Kris Dunn and Brandon Austin? Maybe but doubtful. Kids are attracted to the Syr, Louisville, Pitt big east and the allure of playing against them. Without that it can come down to on campus facilities or something minor to get a good recruit. Some of these schools can't fill arena vs Syracuse. What do you think is going to happen vs Each other, or any of the a10 schools.

[BFC]

Lets face it, college sports as a whole in the northeast is not big. It's not The mid Atlantic, Indiana or Kentucky. How much interest nationally is there really in a Seton Hall - PC game or SH - DePaul? The big markets mean a lot more when you throw in Syracuse, Louisville, ND or Pitt. When Gavitt formed the big east he had a great vision and created what turned out to be the most powerful basketball conference along side the acc. But that was 1970's and college basketball was still very big in northeast. With all due respect to PC, DePaul, Marquette, St.johns, their programs are only a mirror of what they were in the 70's. going forward without the money and lure of the old big east, how attractive are these programs even in big markets? Atlanta a big market, but the NHL didn't sell it there just because its a big market. I question the interest tv marketing executives have in these schools down the line?

Why did the ACC want BC? Why did the Big 10 want Rutgers? For their huge local ratings, no. Because they were such great programs, no. Their market meant everything.

[rjsuperfly66]

I would call Alumni Hall a nice, state-of-the-art facility now that it has been renovated, but all it serves as is a practice/strength center.

But in the Big East, people play in arenas, not gymnasiums.

As for recruiting, you are right about conference affliaition. That is why it is important for PC and the other schools to put the best conference possible in the works. A Big East conference with the 12 teams listed above is a very solid conference. At least 50% of the conference competing for solid tourney bids year-to-year. The Big East may never mean the same, but I think the name and MSG definitely help.

It may be a "mid-major" by designation, but it will definitely be in a league of it's own with that title.

[RF1]

Two: Who cares about on-campus arenas? Big East for the most part plays in arenas. Those arenas might not always draw the best, but thats the way the conference is for the most part in arenas

The Catholic Big East schools play in those big off campus arenas because it makes financial sense in the CURRENT Big East landscape. Once all the high profile big draw schools (Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville, Notre Dame, and UConn) are off the schedule, will it still make sense? Of the BE Catholics, only Marquette now regularly sells out a large off campus arena. Villanova only plays its big games off campus and most of these have been against the teams that would be leaving. St. John's has been having difficulty with attendance and reducing its MSG games (which again have recently been more prevalent against the departing BE teams). Georgetown does not draw particularly well. Seton Hall curtains off the upper section of its building already. It is worth noting that even Georgetown and Seton Hall have recently been playing some regular season OOC and NIT games at their small on campus venues. The assumption that the Catholics will continue to play most if not all games at these large off campus arenas may not hold true in the future. The loss of tv and ticket revenues might have a big impact. Don't be surprised to see more of a combination approach (on and off campus) to home games from these schools in the future.

[giovanni]

Lets face it, college sports as a whole in the northeast is not big. It's not The mid Atlantic, Indiana or Kentucky. How much interest nationally is there really in a Seton Hall - PC game or SH - DePaul? The big markets mean a lot more when you throw in Syracuse, Louisville, ND or Pitt. When Gavitt formed the big east he had a great vision and created what turned out to be the most powerful basketball conference along side the acc. But that was 1970's and college basketball was still very big in northeast. With all due respect to PC, DePaul, Marquette, St.johns, their programs are only a mirror of what they were in the 70's. going forward without the money and lure of the old big east, how attractive are these programs even in big markets? Atlanta a big market, but the NHL didn't sell it there just because its a big market. I question the interest tv marketing executives have in these schools down the line?

Why did the ACC want BC? Why did the Big 10 want Rutgers? For their huge local ratings, no. Because they were such great programs, no. Their market meant everything.

First of all both have major football programs. Secondly, until recently BC was very good and highly competitive in both basketball and football. Thirdly these schools are much bigger and in an entirely different category than basketball only schools. Big 10 is first and foremost a football conference and unquestionably like a piece of the NY market, has nothing to do with their basketball program. Same for acc and BC. With these schools you are selling hoop only.

[rodfromcranston]

St. John's being anything but a school that plays basketball in NYC, is a myth.
They've played in one NCAA since 2002. Went through a string of mediocre to awful coaches, until they
got Lavin.
They average 8,400 fans a game. That's a fraction of the MSG capacity and far below the conference
average of 11,323. That average includes 22,000 plus at Syracuse and 21,000 plus at Louisville.

[giovanni]

Agree RF1, well put.

The big east 7 have a critical choice coming up. No doubt St Johns, Gtown and Nova in particular have big east type players, and PC certainly is on the upswing and has a host of highly rated guys sitting out. Do they decide to fly on their own and take advantage of current teams and take a chance they won't be getting the same type of player they have when they were in the real Big East, therefore programs that could potentially fall quickly? I think it makes sense to align in some way with A10 who unquestionably very strong right now and make a basketball only super conference.

[giovanni]

I would like to see average attendance and tv ratings when you have games between these 7 teams. Especially if you take away Marquette and Villanova.

[BFC]

First of all both have major football programs. Secondly, until recently BC was very good and highly competitive in both basketball and football. Thirdly these schools are much bigger and in an entirely different category than basketball only schools. Big 10 is first and foremost a football conference and unquestionably like a piece of the NY market, has nothing to do with their basketball program. Same for acc and BC. With these schools you are selling hoop only.

So ESPN wants the Northeast markets in football but they could care less about them in basketball? The same principle applies, it's just alot less money.

[Brutus]

So many experts coming here, with such inside info, on who talked to who.
Marquette doesn't wag the dog. Bigmouth AD or not.

This from the guy who already is drawing up the plans to expand the Ryan Center so it will seat 10,000 when the BE 7 comes aboard.

[RF1]

I would like to see average attendance and tv ratings when you have games between these 7 teams. Especially if you take away Marquette and Villanova.

I saw a post from a Georgetown fan (ID = DFW HOYA) that listed the top 3 and bottom 3 average attendance numbers for Big East opponents over the last seven years at the Verizon Center.


Georgetown's three highest attended game average versus opponents over the past 7 years:

1. Syracuse
2. West Virginia
3. Pitt

Georgetown's lowest attended game average versus opponents over the past 7 years:

1. St. John's
2. Seton Hall
3. DePaul


The top three would no longer be conference opponents while the bottom three would still be. The poster remarked how even South Florida drew better than half of the Big East Catholic basketball onlies.

[bigappleram]

I have lived in NYC for 15 years....no one cares about St. John's. Hell you have more love for UConn that is palpable on the streets of NYC than I have ever seen for SJU in that time. They play largely in obscurity until they force new yorkers to pay attention, which requires a dominant nationally ranked team or a long run in the tourney. The last SJU team that mattered in the city was the one with Artest that went pretty far, had to be about 10 years ago. But on most nights you would have no clue SJU is even playing, they get swallowed up by the NBA and every other big ticket event in the city.

[RF1]

St. John's home schedule has 8 games on campus at the 5,602 seat Carnesca Arena (formerly known as Alumni Hall), 8 games at MSG, and 1 game at Barclays Arena.

There are seven Big East games at MSG. Four of these opponents would not be conference mates going forward.


ST JOHN'S 2012-13 HOME SCHEDULE ATTENDANCE THUS FAR
11/13/2012 DETROIT 3506
11/21/2012 HOLY CROSS 4030
11/24/2012 FLORIDA GULF COAST 4003
11/29/2012 SOUTH CAROLINA 4902
12/1/2012 NJIT 4314
12/8/2012 FORDHAM 10003 (Holiday Festival Double Header)

[twisted3829]

It's getting real interesting now

http://m.espn.go.com/extra/ncaa/story?storyId=8742607

[rambone 78]

Looks to me like they are going to break away.

The BIG question: Break way to form a new conference [not great for URI} or...

Join the A10. [Most likely great for URI]

I guess we'll know in a day or two.

With the news that Temple can't vote, I would guess creating a new conference, and adding a few schools, looks more and more likely.

If that new conference can get a TV deal that nets each school 1 mil or more a year, I can see the top A10 schools like X and Dayton leaving. This isn't good.

[RIhoopz14]

My prediction of this whole situation -
New Big East Catholic (8 teams) will get: Georgetown, Marquette, St Johns, Villanova, Gonzaga, Xavier, St Louis, Creighton.
A10 will now have (14 teams): VCU, Dayton, Butler, Richmond, Providence, Seton Hall, URI, DePaul, St. Joes, Umass, La Salle, Duquesne, St Bonnies, GW

I have a feeling the interests of the better 4 BE teams will differ from the bottom 3 (PC, DePaul, SHU) and they will split up. BEC will extend offers to Xavier, St. Louis, and Dayton, and I think the first 2 would accept but Dayton wouldn't. They would also extend invites to Gonzaga and Creighton, two up and coming teams that are truly powerhouses, some say Creighton have the best facilities in the nation other than football field. A10 will offer all these teams, and accept PC, DePaul, and SHU while dropping bottom-feeder Fordham.

Its gonna be a long and complicated process but somehow i think it will end up like this.

[twisted3829]

I'm pretty certain the catholic 7 will stick together and not split again

[Gonebarongone]

I'm pretty certain the catholic 7 will stick together and not split again

I agree with this. I believe the requirement to keep the autobid is seven teams that have been together at least five years. As I had said a few days ago, the most logical solution to this is ESPN pulling the strings for a 16 team super hoops conference with the BE7 and ESPN deciding on the other nine invites. For many reasons, URI would neither be locks to be dropped or kept. I just have a hard time seeing the power players wanting anything to do with URI/Prov in the same league. If you are going to have any market overlap, you would think splitting the DC or Philly markets would be better. Going to be close.

[BFC]

They'll split if the money says split. If the top of the A-10 says we want equal say in the new league so you have to sacrifice alliances just like we are, than there is no Big East 7.

[adam914]

This is definitely not sounding good for the A10 right now...

[Rhode_Island_Red]

The Catholic 7 will stick together only as long as it makes financial sense. When the television money dries up--which is inevitable because the BCS cartel will gradually assume control over the lion's share of the available television time--they'll be forced to re-think their cost structures due to plummeting revenues. Remember talk of the "bus league" a few years ago? The midwestern schools will form one and the east-coast schools will form another.

BTW, I have a hard time believing the Catholic 7 will just walk away (or be allowed to walk away) from the brand name, the television money and Madison Square Garden. It'll be interesting to see whether the football schools will demand exit fees, whether the basketball schools try to wheedle some kind of golden parachute from the football schools and how long before this all winds up in court.

It's also kind of ironic hearing all the complaining about defections since for 20 years the Bigheaded East used the Atlantic-10 as a farm system. Villanova, Pitt, West Virginia, Rutgers, Virginia Tech and Temple all moved from the A-10 (or its predecessor, the Eastern 8).

[Gonebarongone]

They'll split if the money says split. If the top of the A-10 says we want equal say in the new league so you have to sacrifice alliances just like we are, than there is no Big East 7.

Maybe. But the same problem remains. ESPN or NBC/Comcast is going to want the 16 teams that present the best markets and game inventory. So, if there was a draft of teams without any allegiance to alliances, you would still see the 7th Big East team chosen before you got the 10th A10 team. Then you are back having the same issue. Who are the 7th, 8th, 9th best A10 teams to go along with the 7 Big East teams.

[rjsuperfly66]

An answer to the last response.

Yesterday, one of your posting friends was on our board talking about the deadweight in the Big East.

So by using KenPom's metrics, I measured out the C7 with the A10 schools on a weighted scale, favoring more recent year results on a 25/22.5/20/17.5/15 scale. I can assure you that when moving to a 22/21/20/19/18 scale, it didn't change much.

These were the results ...

Team Name Average
Georgetown 24.5
Marquette 28.825
VCU 40.175
Xavier 46.425
Villanova 53.175
Butler 55.8
Seton Hall 68.175
Dayton 69.625
Richmond 74.225
St. Louis 78.6
Providence 92.5
St. John's 94.975
LaSalle 109.75
St. Joseph 110.025
Duquesne 120.8
St. Bonaventure 120.925
UMASS 129.025
URI 145.65
GW 152.925
DePaul 158.35
Fordham 282.6

[Rhody74]

Done deal, says the NY Post:http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/college/ ... wF80US3G6H

[Rhody74]

Heh
http://twitpic.com/bllqzv

[adam914]

I think now all we can hope for is that they join the A10 rather than poach from the A10.

[Billyboy78]

This does not sound good.

[BFC]

Maybe. But the same problem remains. ESPN or NBC/Comcast is going to want the 16 teams that present the best markets and game inventory. So, if there was a draft of teams without any allegiance to alliances, you would still see the 7th Big East team chosen before you got the 10th A10 team. Then you are back having the same issue. Who are the 7th, 8th, 9th best A10 teams to go along with the 7 Big East teams.

I agree with you about how the decisions will be made but the number 16 is being taken out of the air at this point.

[Billyboy78]

Are letters of intent still binding to all of the schools that will be affected by this?

[BFC]

"A source said the Big East was leaning towards a second option - adding schools. It wants to return to its days as a 10-12 school conference with a homogenous membership headlined by elite basketball programs in urban markets."

[Gonebarongone]

Maybe. But the same problem remains. ESPN or NBC/Comcast is going to want the 16 teams that present the best markets and game inventory. So, if there was a draft of teams without any allegiance to alliances, you would still see the 7th Big East team chosen before you got the 10th A10 team. Then you are back having the same issue. Who are the 7th, 8th, 9th best A10 teams to go along with the 7 Big East teams.

I agree with you about how the decisions will be made but the number 16 is being taken out of the air at this point.

Fair point. 16 just seems to be the number that the TV guys want that provide the inventory of games they need on all of their outlets without being watered down.

[rambone 78]

Bye-bye X and most likely Dayton. Maybe they will also add Creighton. I doubt StL, Butler, and VCU will go, however.

This is going to get very complicated very fast.

Makes a BIG difference to URI, whether the new conference goes to 12 or 16 teams.

I now seriously doubt the BE 7 will be absorbed by the A10.

[rodfromcranston]

Has anyone asked, what if the remaining BCS schools UConn, UC, USF, decide to keep the Big East name and add teams themselves?

[Rhody74]

I think now all we can hope for is that they join the A10 rather than poach from the A10.

I would, too, but I don't think that's likely. According to http://m.espn.go.com/ncb/story?storyId= ... =1cf2i&wjb A10 schools only make $350K from their TV contract. Even the basketball-only BE schools make at least triple that. I don't think a combined BE7-A10 would be able to get a contract like the current Big East, especially if you have overlapping markets like RI, Philly, DC, and New York.

Sadly, it seems more likely that X, Dayton, Butler and St. Louis will go to the b-ball only Big East, with a 12th team to be named later.