1/8 | Davidson | 2:00PM (CBSSN)

[RhowdyRam02]

Ramster, if the techs weren’t part of a pattern of behavior I maybe could get behind what you’re selling. But how many techs do the Twins have this season? Honest question. Leggett didn’t even get a tech and he was the one who should be the most upset if he did indeed get fouled.

I found the replay.
Watch Leggett drive to the hoop. Leggett actually pushed off of #13 Jones that could have been called as Leggett started his move to the hoop.
After Leggett beats Jones to the hoop, #1 Lee moves in under the hoop and clearly fouls Leggett with his body - not any doubt at all. Foul was missed on Lee. Leggett makes that shot if Lee doesn't foul him with his body. There was no block by Lee just the body foul. Then Leggett gets the rebound and maybe fouled but for sure Lee fouled Leggett with no call beforehand. URI bench knew it as it was right in from to them to see.

If Makhel doesn't get the Tech then Cox would have gotten a Tech. Cox was livid as he well should have been. Ref called it on Makhel first but Cox was next.

I'm not going to blame this Technical Foul on Makhel or Leggett or Cox. Just as bad no call by the Ref. Based on the Davidson message board, the Refs had a rough afternoon all around.

Time to learn from this and move on. Solid performance by URI playing the top A10 team on the road without a D1 game in a month.

I'd like to highlight two things at the end of the game that I haven't seen mentioned yet that really showcase the lack of basketball IQ and poise by the team and Cox' poor end of game coaching and time out management. We'll start with the last one first:

At 1:17:46 of the video, Davidson takes possession of the basketball with 23.5 seconds left in the game, up by 1, in front of the RI bench. Obviously shot clock is off in that situation and we need to foul to extend the game. Walker immediately approaches the Davidson player, but doesn't foul and quickly peels off to get back on defense. In his place, Martin, on his way past the Davidson player, starts to play defense but doesn't immediately foul. Leggett immediately joins Martin in playing defense and not fouling, allowing the Davidson player to escape and dribble away. Finally Leggett fouls with 16.1 seconds remaining. Obviously it ended up not mattering because of the Mitchell technical, but that is 7.4 critical seconds wasted by three players either not making the right, and completely basic, play or waiting too long to make it. This is beginner basketball, and we botched the situational awareness. It appears that Cox and the bench were too busy complaining about the non-calls to remind the guys on the floor that fouling was necessary.

Now let's go to 1:17:30 of the video. URI has just gotten the ball over half court with 39.6 seconds left in the game and 24 seconds on the shot clock. For some reason, Cox doesn't use his remaining time out here to A. set up a play to try and get the game winning basket, and B. give instructions to his team on what to do based on how the offensive possession ends. Was Leggett driving the hoop really our best play in that situation? I don't believe it was. By not taking the timeout there, Cox doesn't put the team in the best position to win, and doesn't make sure the team is focused on the situations they will face based on the result of the offensive possession. Cox lets the team play on and that timeout goes unused. This is an even more glaring mistake when looking at his normal timeout usage. He called two timeouts in the first half. In the vast majority of games he calls a timeout between halftime and the under 16 media timeout after we make a basket to make sure our defense is set or some garbage. Here, with 39.6 seconds left in the game, on the road against the best team in the conference, he decides taking the timeout and making sure your offense is set is not necessary. Three and a half years in and he shows no knowledge of how to properly use timeouts.

[theblueram]

RR2, your second point is what amazes me. 39 seconds with 24 on the shot clock and you don't take a timeout to set up a play? I was expecting a TO, but once they crossed I said here we go. That is just lack of coaching. Who as a coach doesn't want the opportunity to dictate the final 39 seconds of a game?

[PlayMikeMotenMore]

Ramster, if the techs weren’t part of a pattern of behavior I maybe could get behind what you’re selling. But how many techs do the Twins have this season? Honest question. Leggett didn’t even get a tech and he was the one who should be the most upset if he did indeed get fouled.

I found the replay.
Watch Leggett drive to the hoop. Leggett actually pushed off of #13 Jones that could have been called as Leggett started his move to the hoop.
After Leggett beats Jones to the hoop, #1 Lee moves in under the hoop and clearly fouls Leggett with his body - not any doubt at all. Foul was missed on Lee. Leggett makes that shot if Lee doesn't foul him with his body. There was no block by Lee just the body foul. Then Leggett gets the rebound and maybe fouled but for sure Lee fouled Leggett with no call beforehand. URI bench knew it as it was right in from to them to see.

If Makhel doesn't get the Tech then Cox would have gotten a Tech. Cox was livid as he well should have been. Ref called it on Makhel first but Cox was next.

I'm not going to blame this Technical Foul on Makhel or Leggett or Cox. Just as bad no call by the Ref. Based on the Davidson message board, the Refs had a rough afternoon all around.

Time to learn from this and move on. Solid performance by URI playing the top A10 team on the road without a D1 game in a month.

I'd like to highlight two things at the end of the game that I haven't seen mentioned yet that really showcase the lack of basketball IQ and poise by the team and Cox' poor end of game coaching and time out management. We'll start with the last one first:

At 1:17:46 of the video, Davidson takes possession of the basketball with 23.5 seconds left in the game, up by 1, in front of the RI bench. Obviously shot clock is off in that situation and we need to foul to extend the game. Walker immediately approaches the Davidson player, but doesn't foul and quickly peels off to get back on defense. In his place, Martin, on his way past the Davidson player, starts to play defense but doesn't immediately foul. Leggett immediately joins Martin in playing defense and not fouling, allowing the Davidson player to escape and dribble away. Finally Leggett fouls with 16.1 seconds remaining. Obviously it ended up not mattering because of the Mitchell technical, but that is 7.4 critical seconds wasted by three players either not making the right, and completely basic, play or waiting too long to make it. This is beginner basketball, and we botched the situational awareness. It appears that Cox and the bench were too busy complaining about the non-calls to remind the guys on the floor that fouling was necessary.

Now let's go to 1:17:30 of the video. URI has just gotten the ball over half court with 39.6 seconds left in the game and 24 seconds on the shot clock. For some reason, Cox doesn't use his remaining time out here to A. set up a play to try and get the game winning basket, and B. give instructions to his team on what to do based on how the offensive possession ends. Was Leggett driving the hoop really our best play in that situation? I don't believe it was. By not taking the timeout there, Cox doesn't put the team in the best position to win, and doesn't make sure the team is focused on the situations they will face based on the result of the offensive possession. Cox lets the team play on and that timeout goes unused. This is an even more glaring mistake when looking at his normal timeout usage. He called two timeouts in the first half. In the vast majority of games he calls a timeout between halftime and the under 16 media timeout after we make a basket to make sure our defense is set or some garbage. Here, with 39.6 seconds left in the game, on the road against the best team in the conference, he decides taking the timeout and making sure your offense is set is not necessary. Three and a half years in and he shows no knowledge of how to properly use timeouts.

You make good points. But I can make a logical case against each of those however. It doesn't matter the level of game (middle school, high school, or college). I'll explain it without the technical foul screwing up the whole scenario.

1. After the two Leggett misses, URI is down 1 with about :23 left. Yes, URI needs to foul at some point to get the ball back. So why wouldn't you foul immediately? Well for one, the possession arrow is in URI's favor. So you could play hounding defense in backcourt and perhaps have a hard trap near a sideline or midcourt to get the tie-up and the ball. Essentially, you're trying get a quick turnover with the tie-up, possession arrow in URI's favor, and get the ball only down 1 point. Secondly, Foster Loyer has the ball. He's an 89% FT shooter and had been automatic at the FT line at that point. If you can run a double-team at him in backcourt (he's not super quick and not too big) so he gives up the ball, then you have a chance to foul somebody other than Loyer. So whether you foul at :23, :16, or :12 left...in any of those cases, you'd still get the ball back after the FT's with plenty of time to get a deuce or potentially game tying triple if Davidson had hit both FT's and been up 3 points. (Of course, McKillop perhaps would've fouled up 3 points to prevent a URI game-tying triple attempt, but we'll never know.)

2. Your second point is more debatable. Some coaches like to call the timeout and some don't. By not calling the timeout, the defense doesn't have a chance to adjust their lineup with a substitute, doesn't have a chance to strategize on how to defend a certain set, and doesn't have a chance to change defenses (perhaps they throw a wrinkle and go to a zone or trap out of a timeout). The blame goes to Cox for burning a timeout earlier in the game and only having 1 left. With 1 timeout left, my guess is that Cox would've used the timeout after Davidson's FT's with :16 left to determine if they were going for 2 or 3 points and to set up what play to run. But the technical foul screwed all that up.

3. I'll throw in a third point of blame you left out. After Loyer makes 3 of 4 FT's, URI is down 72-68 and with the ball with :16 left. I have no idea why they passed it around the perimeter and went for a low percentage 3-point attempt. The smart move is try for a quick 2-point basket, timeout, and then the quick foul hoping Davidson misses a FT. You're always looking to extend the game as long as you can. You do that by making quick baskets, usually by making high percentage two's. When you spend seconds searching out a low percentage 3's and miss, you're essentially all done. That is a Cox coaching blunder.

[bigappleram]

Agree with PMM that most likely scenario is they didn’t want to foul Loyer. Not a huge difference in 19 or 16 seconds left at that point. Letting the possession play out a few seconds wasn’t the killer.

Also agree that down 4 with 16 seconds the no brainer decision is go to the hoop and either get a quick two or get fouled and score with a stopped clock. Then foul quickly and hope you get 1 miss. The last thing you want to do is dilly around the perimeter and then chuck a bad look 3.

Some of that stuff is on the player and situational bball IQ. Some is on the coach for not calling a TO and reminding guys of the situation and how to approach it.

The timeout he called at 6 min mark for no discernible reason was not good.

[theblueram]

Agree with PMM that most likely scenario is they didn’t want to foul Loyer. Not a huge difference in 19 or 16 seconds left at that point. Letting the possession play out a few seconds wasn’t the killer.

Also agree that down 4 with 16 seconds the no brainer decision is go to the hoop and either get a quick two or get fouled and score with a stopped clock. Then foul quickly and hope you get 1 miss. The last thing you want to do is dilly around the perimeter and then chuck a bad look 3.

Some of that stuff is on the player and situational bball IQ. Some is on the coach for not calling a TO and reminding guys of the situation and how to approach it.

The timeout he called at 6 min mark for no discernible reason was not good.

Bar, would you have called a time out when we were down 1 with 39 on the clock and 24 on the shot clock?

[reef]

I just rewatched it I don’t have a huge problem not using our last TO there , it looked like we were set up and we ran what we wanted to run it just wasn’t executed correctly. If we use the TO there not sure we end up with a better shot and then we are out of timeouts if we need one at the end . If we did use the TO there I wouldn’t have complained either just don’t think that cost us the game

[bigappleram]

Agree with PMM that most likely scenario is they didn’t want to foul Loyer. Not a huge difference in 19 or 16 seconds left at that point. Letting the possession play out a few seconds wasn’t the killer.

Also agree that down 4 with 16 seconds the no brainer decision is go to the hoop and either get a quick two or get fouled and score with a stopped clock. Then foul quickly and hope you get 1 miss. The last thing you want to do is dilly around the perimeter and then chuck a bad look 3.

Some of that stuff is on the player and situational bball IQ. Some is on the coach for not calling a TO and reminding guys of the situation and how to approach it.

The timeout he called at 6 min mark for no discernible reason was not good.

Bar, would you have called a time out when we were down 1 with 39 on the clock and 24 on the shot clock?

If we had 2 left then yes probably would take 1 there and scheme the shot I want. But with 1 left he really couldn’t risk needing it in last 5-10 seconds so he was stuck. That’s why the TO at the 6 min mark for no good reason was a killer move.

[ramster]

I just rewatched it I don’t have a huge problem not using our last TO there , it looked like we were set up and we ran what we wanted to run it just wasn’t executed correctly. If we use the TO there not sure we end up with a better shot and then we are out of timeouts if we need one at the end . If we did use the TO there I wouldn’t have complained either just don’t think that cost us the game

I agree Reef.

If Cox uses that last timeout then we have none left. Plus we then need to inbound the ball with no timeouts and Davidson knowing we have none left.

So Davidson can pressure the inbounds pass following the timeout and maybe we have difficulty finding a guy open and then the passer can't call timeout. Plus if someone gets trapped in the corner or pulls up their dribble then that player can't call time out.

Coaches have different philosophies. So many times I see teams not even get a shot off because of a travel, steal, bad pass.....we got a good drive to the hoop for a high percentage shot but Lee made a hell of a play

[reef]

That’s a good point Ramster about them pressuring the in bounds pass I didn’t even think of them and we are screwed with no time outs and I’m sure MCKillop probably outcoaches Cox in that situation

[steviep123]

I agree, with only one time out left you want to save that for if you have trouble inbounding with 5 secs left like Ramster said. I still can't bring myself to watch the game - I have it on dvr. I honestly haven't felt so dismayed in this program since Baron's last year.

[NYGFan_Section208]

I agree, with only one time out left you want to save that for if you have trouble inbounding with 5 secs left like Ramster said. I still can't bring myself to watch the game - I have it on dvr. I honestly haven't felt so dismayed in this program since Baron's last year.

Just going out on a limb here and saying...there is potential for more dismay than you are feeling now.

[PlayMikeMotenMore]

So we all agree:

1. Blame goes to Cox for burning a timeout earlier in the game (for no needed reason) and only having 1 left at the end. (Saving timeouts is critical and taking them, for example, before the under 16:00 timeout when you're up 7 after going on a 6-0 run makes no sense in games.)
2. Blame goes to Cox and the players for dilly-dallying around down 72-68 and jacking up a bad 3-pointer instead of going for quick 2-pointer. That's probability, math, and basketball strategy all coming together. Gotta know that stuff!
3. Blame goes to a player for getting technical foul. I don't remember the last time I saw a college player get a T for whining.
4. McKillop is a far better coach than most coaches out there. That's why he's been at it for over 30+ years

For the record, this is a good board discussion of actual basketball. Far better than posters saying "so-n-so sucks" and "the refs were horrible"...blah, blah.

[RhowdyRam02]

I found the replay.
Watch Leggett drive to the hoop. Leggett actually pushed off of #13 Jones that could have been called as Leggett started his move to the hoop.
After Leggett beats Jones to the hoop, #1 Lee moves in under the hoop and clearly fouls Leggett with his body - not any doubt at all. Foul was missed on Lee. Leggett makes that shot if Lee doesn't foul him with his body. There was no block by Lee just the body foul. Then Leggett gets the rebound and maybe fouled but for sure Lee fouled Leggett with no call beforehand. URI bench knew it as it was right in from to them to see.

If Makhel doesn't get the Tech then Cox would have gotten a Tech. Cox was livid as he well should have been. Ref called it on Makhel first but Cox was next.

I'm not going to blame this Technical Foul on Makhel or Leggett or Cox. Just as bad no call by the Ref. Based on the Davidson message board, the Refs had a rough afternoon all around.

Time to learn from this and move on. Solid performance by URI playing the top A10 team on the road without a D1 game in a month.

I'd like to highlight two things at the end of the game that I haven't seen mentioned yet that really showcase the lack of basketball IQ and poise by the team and Cox' poor end of game coaching and time out management. We'll start with the last one first:

At 1:17:46 of the video, Davidson takes possession of the basketball with 23.5 seconds left in the game, up by 1, in front of the RI bench. Obviously shot clock is off in that situation and we need to foul to extend the game. Walker immediately approaches the Davidson player, but doesn't foul and quickly peels off to get back on defense. In his place, Martin, on his way past the Davidson player, starts to play defense but doesn't immediately foul. Leggett immediately joins Martin in playing defense and not fouling, allowing the Davidson player to escape and dribble away. Finally Leggett fouls with 16.1 seconds remaining. Obviously it ended up not mattering because of the Mitchell technical, but that is 7.4 critical seconds wasted by three players either not making the right, and completely basic, play or waiting too long to make it. This is beginner basketball, and we botched the situational awareness. It appears that Cox and the bench were too busy complaining about the non-calls to remind the guys on the floor that fouling was necessary.

Now let's go to 1:17:30 of the video. URI has just gotten the ball over half court with 39.6 seconds left in the game and 24 seconds on the shot clock. For some reason, Cox doesn't use his remaining time out here to A. set up a play to try and get the game winning basket, and B. give instructions to his team on what to do based on how the offensive possession ends. Was Leggett driving the hoop really our best play in that situation? I don't believe it was. By not taking the timeout there, Cox doesn't put the team in the best position to win, and doesn't make sure the team is focused on the situations they will face based on the result of the offensive possession. Cox lets the team play on and that timeout goes unused. This is an even more glaring mistake when looking at his normal timeout usage. He called two timeouts in the first half. In the vast majority of games he calls a timeout between halftime and the under 16 media timeout after we make a basket to make sure our defense is set or some garbage. Here, with 39.6 seconds left in the game, on the road against the best team in the conference, he decides taking the timeout and making sure your offense is set is not necessary. Three and a half years in and he shows no knowledge of how to properly use timeouts.

You make good points. But I can make a logical case against each of those however. It doesn't matter the level of game (middle school, high school, or college). I'll explain it without the technical foul screwing up the whole scenario.

1. After the two Leggett misses, URI is down 1 with about :23 left. Yes, URI needs to foul at some point to get the ball back. So why wouldn't you foul immediately? Well for one, the possession arrow is in URI's favor. So you could play hounding defense in backcourt and perhaps have a hard trap near a sideline or midcourt to get the tie-up and the ball. Essentially, you're trying get a quick turnover with the tie-up, possession arrow in URI's favor, and get the ball only down 1 point. Secondly, Foster Loyer has the ball. He's an 89% FT shooter and had been automatic at the FT line at that point. If you can run a double-team at him in backcourt (he's not super quick and not too big) so he gives up the ball, then you have a chance to foul somebody other than Loyer. So whether you foul at :23, :16, or :12 left...in any of those cases, you'd still get the ball back after the FT's with plenty of time to get a deuce or potentially game tying triple if Davidson had hit both FT's and been up 3 points. (Of course, McKillop perhaps would've fouled up 3 points to prevent a URI game-tying triple attempt, but we'll never know.)

2. Your second point is more debatable. Some coaches like to call the timeout and some don't. By not calling the timeout, the defense doesn't have a chance to adjust their lineup with a substitute, doesn't have a chance to strategize on how to defend a certain set, and doesn't have a chance to change defenses (perhaps they throw a wrinkle and go to a zone or trap out of a timeout). The blame goes to Cox for burning a timeout earlier in the game and only having 1 left. With 1 timeout left, my guess is that Cox would've used the timeout after Davidson's FT's with :16 left to determine if they were going for 2 or 3 points and to set up what play to run. But the technical foul screwed all that up.

3. I'll throw in a third point of blame you left out. After Loyer makes 3 of 4 FT's, URI is down 72-68 and with the ball with :16 left. I have no idea why they passed it around the perimeter and went for a low percentage 3-point attempt. The smart move is try for a quick 2-point basket, timeout, and then the quick foul hoping Davidson misses a FT. You're always looking to extend the game as long as you can. You do that by making quick baskets, usually by making high percentage two's. When you spend seconds searching out a low percentage 3's and miss, you're essentially all done. That is a Cox coaching blunder.

Note that I'm probably using the benefit of hindsight for this specific situation as opposed to a more generalized take on basketball strategy, but for
1. I would say that obviously a turnover is better than committing a foul to get the ball back, but we didn't seem to do anything defensively that either would have caused a turnover or caused Loyer to pass the ball, which is why my original opinion was we should have fouled almost immediately. If we had trapped or pressured him I wouldn't have been so down on losing almost 7 seconds there.

2. I can see the reasons for not taking the timeout there that you mention, plus the potential difficulty of getting the ball out of bounds coming out of the timeout other people have brought up. That said, I think in this situation it was worth the risk.
A. I just can't imagine that Leggett driving to the hoop was the best shot we had, and probably isn't an above average option for us in that situation. Only Ayo-Faleye has a lower field goal percentage than Leggett on the team and there are five guys on the team with better free throw percentages if your hope is to draw a foul and get to the line. That was already a low percentage play for us made worse that referees in all sports get tight with whistles in end of game scenarios.
B. Our defense coming out of the timeout completely lacked strategy. We didn't pressure or trap to create turnover or get the ball out of the hands of an 89% shooter's hands and we didn't foul right away to maximize time remaining.
For those reasons I would take the timeout at 39.6 seconds even knowing it gives Davidson a chance to sub, set their defense, and pressure the in-bounds. I think it would have been best taking it there to try to get a better play for the lead off and have a defensive concept ready to go for whatever the outcome of our play ended up being

[NYGFan_Section208]

This thread has some of the longest posts that I've ever not read in my life...zzzzzzzzz.......