Monitoring NCAA Transfers

[rambone 78]

Butler as of right now, is no use to us.

If he has to go, he has to go. We need more offense, badly. And since he doesn't play defense, another reason to go.

[rodfromcranston]

Ditto for Oneykaba.

[rambone 78]

Rod, O has only one year left, right?

I doubt he'll go anywhere, and I don't think Dan would dump him anyway.

At least Biggie and Jarelle have proven to be OK backups at times. They'll be here next year.

We could definitely use another opening, for either another big, shooter or even PG.

[rodfromcranston]

I wouldn't mind if Reischel went the post grad route and
went to a lower D-1 school.
Oneykaba should go D-2. Same with Butler.
I'd love to see three more scholarships, but it won't happen.
Biggie, you keep. He's been pretty solid this season.
I never thought he'd have an overall better year than Biruta,
who I picked for our high scorer.

[rambone 78]

Rod, I do think Butler won't be here next season. The other 2 will though imo.

Never thought Oneykaba would be such a flop. Just has never developed. He looks the part, but that's all. We might need him for fouling purposes only, if we don't get another big.

Agree with Biggie. He's much improved. JR has his moments, and should be a little better next season.

Just got to get some more offensive capability in here next season, without giving up much on the defensive end.

We know Terrell and Jarvis will become better scorers, and Hassan is Hassan. EC isn't going anywhere next season but here.

[Obadiah]

I think Reischel can play a role. He should hit the weights over the summer. A stronger Reischel especially his hands would make a more complete player. He does have some nice moves to the rim and gets some key rebounds.

Agree that Butler should go to a lower level school as should Iffy.

[Billyboy78]

I think Reischel can play a role. He should hit the weights over the summer. A stronger Reischel especially his hands would make a more complete player. He does have some nice moves to the rim and gets some key rebounds.

Agree that Butler should go to a lower level school as should Iffy.

It seems that all the players added muscle over the past off season except Jarelle. His arms are still very thin. I agree, a little more strength and he'd be more effective around the basket.

[Iggy1979]

I think Butler will leave. I hope everyone else stays.

[gorhody89]

Ya I keep waiting for Butler to show me something everytime he is in....last night he got an open look from 3 at the end of the shot clock in the first half...it was pretty deep but he missed, if the 1 thing you supposedly can do is shoot you gotta make those

[Ramulous]

What about Gibbs coming here for a post grad year?

[rodfromcranston]

There's a scorer, huh? Gotta find one more scholarship.

[rambone 78]

We will have 2 available. Gut feeling.

The Help Wanted sign is out.

Really big spring signing period coming up. Actually, aren't they all?

Just a thought though: Spring? What's spring? My son up in Gloucester north of Boston, has almost 6 feet of snow, and more to come.

[ace]

Kevin Willard's handling of Sina leaving is a little unusual. The norm is to give the standard, "we thank Player X for his contributions to our program and wish him well in his future endeavors." Willard is repeatedly, even when not specifically asked, praising Sina both as a player and person. It's nice but hard not to look for motive, other than just saying something that is true. Maybe it just goes back to how poorly he was treated by a lot of the fan base. College fans can be flat out gross with this stuff.

[ramster]

Ace,
Could it also be relationships between the players themselves? Being said the freshmen and seniors are at odds. Agree Williard is very complimentary.

[Gonebarongone]

There's a scorer, huh? Gotta find one more scholarship.

I know the board is 99% in favor of Iverson coming mostly because there is no downside. The scholarship situation is one. Now, Rhody has one schollie to give out for a spring signee, grad transfer, etc. for 2015-16. The crunch, because of Hare, was the reason Hurley backed off of Gustys. The one scholarship the staff has right has to go to a big, right? So, that essentially closes off any 1/2/3 type scorer, either as a spring signee or grad xfer like Gibbs. Or even a regular xfer like Sina. Can't go into next year with Watson/Martin/Butts only up front.

[ace]

Ace,
Could it also be relationships between the players themselves? Being said the freshmen and seniors are at odds. Agree Williard is very complimentary.

Probably some of that, too. Prior to this season, Willard had to have heard the whispers about job security. He took a big chance on recruiting (bringing in players who brought their own people). I don't necessarily blame Whitehead for all of it, like a lot of people do. It's a team-wide issue. When things were going well, the team dynamics were fine... they hit some adversity, they look like they're falling apart. It's easy to coach when you're winning and things are going well. Getting teams through periods when the pieces just aren't there yet or a team is under achieving is where you earn your money.

[Gonebarongone]

Ace,
Could it also be relationships between the players themselves? Being said the freshmen and seniors are at odds. Agree Williard is very complimentary.

Probably some of that, too. Prior to this season, Willard had to have heard the whispers about job security. He took a big chance on recruiting (bringing in players who brought their own people). I don't necessarily blame Whitehead for all of it, like a lot of people do. It's a team-wide issue. When things were going well, the team dynamics were fine... they hit some adversity, they look like they're falling apart. It's easy to coach when you're winning and things are going well. Getting teams through periods when the pieces just aren't there yet or a team is under achieving is where you earn your money.

At the end of the day, these coaches are paid big bucks to handle this but it is pretty clear what is going on. Gibbs is an incredibly good, efficient player (and a senior) who was playing really well and the team had some nice wins while Whitehead was out hurt. Whitehead comes back (a frosh) and has a usage rate over 30% at an incredibly inefficient rate. That usage rate is lower than X ever had or EC this year. And he is doing way less than those guys. The friction between old guys and new guys is as old as time but you can see where the older guys might be coming from. Big time recruit comes in, forces way too much stuff, and on top of that the team is in a spiral.

[hrstrat57]

From what I have seen I suspect Butler is a huge part of the good chemistry on this team. No inside info here just my gut feeling.....sometimes that alone can be worth a scholly.

I wish we had a place for Sina though, liked his dad a lot and seems like he can play a bit and is a quality student.

We have to hold for the big tho, no choice....and it needs to be an impact player, probably a juco.

[rodfromcranston]

No doubt, a big man is priority.
As I said, all big time programs, handle their rosters
like professional team.
They don't keep deadwood around. They replace it and upgrade.
That is a fact of life, if you want to have a successful program.
If you have 8 or 9 top notch players for your rotation, you can
play around with giving scholarships to walk ons in their senior
year, and things like that.
We're not there yet, and the team has needs not served by
the current roster.

[ace]

Ace,
Could it also be relationships between the players themselves? Being said the freshmen and seniors are at odds. Agree Williard is very complimentary.

Probably some of that, too. Prior to this season, Willard had to have heard the whispers about job security. He took a big chance on recruiting (bringing in players who brought their own people). I don't necessarily blame Whitehead for all of it, like a lot of people do. It's a team-wide issue. When things were going well, the team dynamics were fine... they hit some adversity, they look like they're falling apart. It's easy to coach when you're winning and things are going well. Getting teams through periods when the pieces just aren't there yet or a team is under achieving is where you earn your money.

At the end of the day, these coaches are paid big bucks to handle this but it is pretty clear what is going on. Gibbs is an incredibly good, efficient player (and a senior) who was playing really well and the team had some nice wins while Whitehead was out hurt. Whitehead comes back (a frosh) and has a usage rate over 30% at an incredibly inefficient rate. That usage rate is lower than X ever had or EC this year. And he is doing way less than those guys. The friction between old guys and new guys is as old as time but you can see where the older guys might be coming from. Big time recruit comes in, forces way too much stuff, and on top of that the team is in a spiral.

But Whitehead isn't putting himself in for 20+ minutes a game. Willard, because of the chances he took, is feeling his hand is a little forced. I'm not going to put all of that on a freshman- there are lots of people playing a role. I like Seton Hall and have for years. I've tracked Gibbs since high school (and Ashton before that and now TJ). I know how solid he is as a player and person. Losing to Marquette at home... my god, that was ugly.

[ace]

hrstrat57 is right about Butler. As they're playing (or not playing) right now, Butler and Onyekaba are fine as 12 and 13, not so much as 10 and 11. That's a roster management situation that we all know developed because of several factors- none of which should be a concern moving forward.

[rodfromcranston]

I'll stick to what I said.
Chemistry gained for end of the bench guys doesn't
outweigh the needs of the program as a whole.
I doubt Calhoun, or any big name coach, ever cared about chemistry that didn't involve
contributing players.

[ace]

I'll stick to what I said.
Chemistry gained for end of the bench guys doesn't
outweigh the needs of the program as a whole.
I doubt Calhoun, or any big name coach, ever cared about chemistry that didn't involve
contributing players.

That wasn't my point. The problem with the roster isn't necessarily who is on it but who isn't. They dress eleven guys.

[Gonebarongone]

hrstrat57 is right about Butler. As they're playing (or not playing) right now, Butler and Onyekaba are fine as 12 and 13, not so much as 10 and 11. That's a roster management situation that we all know developed because of several factors- none of which should be a concern moving forward.

Not to take this thread off the rails but, man, isn't it amazing that Onyekaba is just putting up nothing? 21 and 10 in your first ever game and, over a year later, zero points and boards in the entire A10 season. Is it just the fouls? Crazy that he can't even give guys a breather.

[ATPTourFan]

GBG, two things: the opponent he scored his 21/10 against and the massive upgrade in talent/production in the position he plays.

[Gonebarongone]

I'll stick to what I said.
Chemistry gained for end of the bench guys doesn't
outweigh the needs of the program as a whole.
I doubt Calhoun, or any big name coach, ever cared about chemistry that didn't involve
contributing players.

Honestly...I know where you are coming from. But, I hate this. Calhoun did this multiple times. What if Butler enjoys URI? What if he loves playing for Hurley? What if he thinks he can contribute as a junior or senior (god knows that has happened before and god know URI needs shooters). It's what separates the pros from college. Or, it should. Hope DH isn't that kind of coach. If it costs the team a win or three, fine by me. I understand this isn't tiddlywinks and it's big money. But, it is still a kid's life. I think Hurley should have an open and frank conversation with everyone on the roster at season's end about what their prospects are for future playing time. Never push a kid out, though. Just my take.

[Gonebarongone]

GBG, two things: the opponent he scored his 21/10 against and the massive upgrade in talent/production in the position he plays.

No doubt but when there are times when EC is your fourth tallest player on the floor or Reischel? Just a bit shocking that he can't bang around/grab some boards/dunk once over ten minutes.

[rodfromcranston]

So, you're eluding to Hare and Powell?
Two empty scholarships. That hasn't helped
matters, either.

Oneykaba has been disappointing in his lack of any progress over the course of two years.
He came here heralded as a three star recruit, who was a steal , in the way he was
recruited right out of his prep school.
He's been here for three years, and other than his very first game, zilch.
Nice kid, good student, but............

As for Butler, you will have Thompson and Iverson playing 2-3, in
addition to EC, Biggie, Garrett and Terrell.
That's six guys in front of Butler. I like that some kids have confidence in their
abilities.The minimal time he's played this year, including Sunday, when all our
guards were in deep foul trouble, speaks to how Hurley and staff view him.
So far, he's proven to be a shooter who can't shoot, and doesn't contribute
much in other areas valued here, like defense.
Not saying push him out, but have the,"Kid, you're just not going to play here
for your career (take a hint)" talk.

[hrstrat57]

hrstrat57 is right about Butler. As they're playing (or not playing) right now, Butler and Onyekaba are fine as 12 and 13, not so much as 10 and 11. That's a roster management situation that we all know developed because of several factors- none of which should be a concern moving forward.

Not to take this thread off the rails but, man, isn't it amazing that Onyekaba is just putting up nothing? 21 and 10 in your first ever game and, over a year later, zero points and boards in the entire A10 season. Is it just the fouls? Crazy that he can't even give guys a breather.

No off the rails here, the Onyekaba situ is puzzling, no downright bizarre.

I keep waiting for a Henry Steele moment for both Butler and Iffy.........

[ace]

Yes, I'm specifically referring to the two roster spots formerly known as Powell's and Hare's. More generally, the situation is that the staff had to bring in 8 players at one time less than 3 years ago. They've managed to get some nice roster balance when considering players by class, but that big of an influx causes its own problems, starting with having to get a large group out of a less desirable pool of applicants (which is what's available in March/April) and limited previous relationships.

Every staff sits down with their players at the end of the season and lays out how they see things going in the future, from both a team and individual perspective. It's what, if you believe reports, led to Fortune leaving PC. The jokes about Garrett and Terrell aside, we should have no concern about Hurley being honest with his players. At the same time, and to his credit in my opinion, a guy who has been a solid part of the program who knows his role and makes the decision to stay is likely to stay on. From all available evidence, the approach outlined by GBG above seems fair and to be the approach of Hurley and the rest of the staff.

[Billyboy78]

So, if the 4 new players coming in could be 5,8,9 and 11 on the roster, it would be fine having Butler and Iffy as 12 and 13.

[Billyboy78]

So, if the 4 new players coming in could be 5,8,9 and 11 on the roster, it would be fine having Butler and Iffy as 12 and 13.

Meaning, for example Iverson 5, Thompson 8, big man recruit 9 and Butts 11.

[rodfromcranston]

However, as the roster is now constituted, assuming a big is brought in with the remaining
scholarship, there is no flexibility for a post grad transfer, or another big,
unless someone leaves.
So, you can be politically correct and keep non contributors on scholarship,
(remember scholarships are not for four or five year. They run year to year)
or advise them that playing time will be scare, and suggest they find another
school where they'll get playing time.
You're not throwing anyone out, but appealing to their competitive nature to
play college basketball, only not here.
Again, if you want to have a top notch program, this is what's almost
universally done in those types of programs.
It's one of the many reasons why there's 450 or so transfers every year,
and in growing numbers.

[TruePoint]

http://deadspin.com/seton-halls-mens-ba ... 1685456396

[BFC]

Pretty rare that a player today will hear from the coach that playing time is going to be scarce and the player doesn't transfer, especially with the benefit of the 5th year transfer rule.

[ace]

There's nothing "politically correct" about it, and the talk you described is not that different than what GBG or I outlined. It was nice having a roster spot open for Iverson, just as it was nice to have one for Terrell. In general, I don't think it's necessary to always have an open spot so that some hypothetical player can join the program. You know Hurley's philosophy about bringing in just anybody, and not just anybody is willing to be brought in to come off the bench. I do think you overstate what other programs do to their players as far as roster composition goes. There are a lot of reasons for record number of transfers each year. I'm fine with another big, maybe a post-grad transfer, being brought in and keeping the known Butler and Onyekaba as 12 and 13 as part of the big picture in continuing to develop this program. Other people may not be fine with adding a big and having everything else remain the same, which is fine.

[rodfromcranston]

The point your missing is this: you can't bring in anyone but a
big, under the current scholarship situation.
Somebody needs to move out, if you want to add a post grad scorer or
big, in addition to the juco or 2015 big.
I'm not talking about bringing in anyone who isn't going to contribute.
It isn't who starts the game but who's in at the end, that matters.
Hurley has a meritocracy, which seems to work well.
He tells guys he's recruiting that they'll have a chance to compete
for playing time. Maybe with four or five established players, he
longer can do that?
I'm far from overstating what goes on. I can put tons of stories on here
and bore everyone to death.
I mention Calhoun, because we watched him up close, build a premier
program at UConn. The best ever in NE.
We also saw a revolving door as the result of his over-recruiting or upgrading
his roster constantly.
URI was the beneficiary of two of his players transferring here, including
a McDonald's AA.
Whatever his methods, the results are hard to argue with.

[Gonebarongone]

Pretty rare that a player today will hear from the coach that playing time is going to be scarce and the player doesn't transfer, especially with the benefit of the 5th year transfer rule.

The hair we are splitting here is a big one. Telling a kid he won't get ever get regular minutes is fair to all parties. Telling a kid he is on a one year renewable and telling him to hit the bricks is not. You can have Calhoun if you want. Not for me. Not in college. We all know there is nudging and NUDGING. Not to mention that it gets around pretty quickly. Think it won't be used in recruiting against Rhody? Easy to not care at UConn where it's a parade of future NBA guys coming through the doors. What would Hurley's old man tell him to do? After he basically turned a generation of kids into adults?

[ace]

Rod- I've referenced several times just bringing in a big and no one else. I'm not missing that point at all.

[rodfromcranston]

Read Miracle at St. Anthony.
Bob Sr. kicked plenty of kids off his team, for any number of reasons.
He rules with an iron fist.
He's not Father Flannigan running Boys Town in Jersey City.

[rodfromcranston]

Speaking of Gibbs, he played for the NY Panthers,
FKA LI Panthers and old friend Gary Charles.
Charles suffered a heart attack during
hurricane Sandy.
Panthers bring back some interesting memories......

[adam914]

What am I missing on this Gibbs post grad stuff? Isn't he a junior?

[rodfromcranston]

He is, but he transferred from Texas. He will be in his 5th year,
and is on course to graduate in June.
Since there seems a rift between him and Whitehead, the
speculation is that he may leave and play elsewhere.
Believe me, there will be no shortage of suitors.

[Billyboy78]

It's the same thing that Biggie or Jarelle could do if they graduate this year.

[adam914]

He is, but he transferred from Texas. He will be in his 5th year,
and is on course to graduate in June.
Since there seems a rift between him and Whitehead, the
speculation is that he may leave and play elsewhere.
Believe me, there will be no shortage of suitors.

Ah ok, didn't know much about his history so just saw "Junior" next to his name and was confused. I figured there had to be something I was missing.

[ATPTourFan]

Read Miracle at St. Anthony.

Ha, would assume Ace owns a copy.

[ace]

Graduation in 4 years shouldn't be assumed, though. Biruta graduates this year, but he worked in a double major. Youncofski graduates this year, too, after only 3 years- that guy's a beast!

[Gonebarongone]

Read Miracle at St. Anthony.
Bob Sr. kicked plenty of kids off his team, for any number of reasons.
He rules with an iron fist.
He's not Father Flannigan running Boys Town in Jersey City.

You want to kick kids off the team. Fine by me. D1 hoops is not all rainbows and puppy dogs. Grades....fights....aholes...felons. Running off a kid because he might not be one of the best nine kids is another story. If Butler busts his ass in the classroom and on the practice court without causing issues, he earns four years at Rhody. To me, anyway. It's a slippery slope to hold a schollie for Hare for multiple seasons than do this to a seemingly good kid. Of course, I say this not knowing much about Butler. I guess I am assuming he is on the up and up.

[Iggy1979]

I would think if Butler leaves it will be mutual. Word was he was bummed when Terrell signed. If he's OK never playing and getting a free education my guess is Hurley will keep him. But most kids want to play, so I think he'll want to leave.

[Iggy1979]

I think the changes the big 5 conferences made to scholarships was that they will be for 4 years, not 1. Don't know if A10 will follow suit,