Game #22: @ Fordham - Sat Feb 1, 7pm

[BPR2010]

Guys, for what it's worth, I do believe that putting extra time and effort into free throw shooting outside of a normal practice session is HUGE to being successful. Rhythm and consistency in my opinion are the 2 biggest keys to success. I was an Elk's FT shooting champion for Rhode Island back in 2001. What it took to get to that level, was going out of my way, outside of my middle school practice schedule, to shoot upwards of 300-500 free throws every day after school. It becomes mechanical, even automatic. Went from a 75-80 percent shooter to upwards of a 90-95 percent shooter. It does play a factor guys. Laziness may not be the right word, but extra time and effort does.

Also, check out this article on Bob Mckillop, Davidson head coach, and why his teams are consistently at the top of the nation every year in free throw shooting. Various other coaches also contribute their thoughts.

http://espn.go.com/ncb/notebook/_/page/ ... basketball

[ramfan85]

I don't know if taking more shots a day will help, but I'm pretty sure taking less won't help. So, i guess I'm saying i just don't know.
I wonder what a reasonable expectation is for improvement for free throws from freshman to senior years? We've had some players who have improved from the line. Of course, I don't remember a whole team having to do it.
Seawright comes to mind. He improved somewhat through his years here. Which was a good thing since CFL always had him on the line at the end of games instead of one of the best free throw shooters in the country.

[Blue Man]

Its taken me a few days to deal with this, and want to revisit the boards.

I do not blame Dan for the free throws. I don't think you can.

This is 100% on the players. Jimmy and Billy Baron are perfect examples of what practicing free throws can do for you. They both practice in the dark. Often. A lot.

You should be able to shut your eyes and make a f$*#&ng free throw. It's the same no matter where it is. There's no weather, no one defending you, the ball is the same, the shot is taken from EXACTLY the same spot on the floor, at a rim that is exactly the same height and distance away as any other court in the country.

You should practice enough that it is a mechanical reaction to put a ball into a hoop.

If you continually suck at shooting free throws - it is without a doubt, unquestionably, undeniably because you are lazy. You don't care enough about basketball or this team to take time out of the other areas of your life to practice.

This is literally the dumbest thing I have ever read in my life. Taken to it's logical conclusion, everyone that doesn't shoot 100% is lazy. Where is your line between hard working and lazy? Caring about your team and not? 80%? 65%? 68.253%? Is that the Blue Man line? Really dumb. But, easy to say with internet anonymity. Doubt you would say that to Hassan.

Well there's a pretty big gap between 80% and 65% so we can start there. If we shot 80% we'd probably be 17-5 right now. We'd also be tied for 5th in the country, which would be nice. But we shoot 65.7%, good enough for 303 in the country, and we're 11-11.

My line for hard working would be not to have 7 or 8 losses completely attributed to free throws.

So we can put it at 75% if that's satisfactory for you. Since we've only been above that in 3 of 22 games this year it's probably a goal to shoot for. Considering we've had 7 games shooting 61% or below that might be nice.

The logical conclusion of my argument didn't assert a number, or say that we should make all our free throws - considering nobody does that and the best team is shooting 84.3 - I'm confused by your use of the word "logic."

What my argument did say is that Jimmy and Billy Baron both have an absurdly high work ethic when it comes to free throws. Class, what would the opposite of a high work ethic be? Oh, lazy? Very good, class. Gold stars for everybody.

If you're here to tell me that every single one of the players on this team is going to the gym and shooting free throws in the dark or with their eyes closed during their free time, I'll gladly eat my words and change my tune from "lazy" to "just terrible basketball players."

Shaq was 7'1 and 300 pounds and had hands so big that a basketball was comparable to a softball in an average hand. Considering no one on our team is dealing with that kind of size, or can dominate and take over a game like one of the greatest centers of all time...we should probably stop those comparisons.

As for internet anonymity...um, dude? My avatar is a picture of myself. My twitter handle is my name. I'm usually yelling the same shit I say on here at the games. And most people on the boards here refer to me as Jay.

So yeah...I would tell Hassan to his face that he sucks at free throws and he should put more time in. I don't think that would be a shock to him or to anyone shooting 52%. And if it was, he's having a crisis of character and we've got bigger problems.

[rodfromcranston]

I have to attest....knowing Jay, he is certifiable.
He plays rugby. Need any more proof?
And, yes, he would say it to Martin.
No, he is far from anonymous.
Did I cover it, Blue Man?

[Blue Man]

I have to attest....knowing Jay, he is certifiable.
He plays rugby. Need any more proof?
And, yes, he would say it to Martin.
No, he is far from anonymous.
Did I cover it, Blue Man?

Hahah I think that covers it

[Gonebarongone]

OK. You're not anonymous. Maybe you are crazy enough to go up to Hassan and call him lazy and he doesn't put his team first. That doesn't make your point valid. It's actually an insane point. Of course, more practice will lead to better results but that's such a superficial way to look at it. First off, it's really hard to replicate game conditions in practice. Certainly when you are off on your own ripping off 500 free throws. Some of these guys are busting their ass on the post or trying to defend someone like Chazz Williams. And then all of a sudden, you are asked to basically use the form you practiced when your heart rate is 60 on a side court. Yeah, you can do it inside of a practice and try to replicate it. It's just not the same. Anyway, I am droning on. It's not just a simple thought of you stink at FTs. Work at it for a year. And you will be great.

[Blue Man]

My point is that you should practice enough that game conditions don't affect you. The shot is the same. It's a mechanical motion. You don't have to adjust your shot for anything different in a game vs practice.

You should practice enough that it's mechanical/automatic/a reflex. Like dribbling.

Shooting free throws is as much of a skill as it is a party trick. It's simple muscle memory. Anybody on the boards could practice free throws and become an 80% free throw shooter. You just actually have to put in the effort.

Like you said, work at it for a year, and you'll be great. It's obvious no one on the team is doing that currently.

[bigappleram]

The point of this whole discourse is what DH laughed at in a few interviews, OF COURSE OUR TEAM WORKS ON FREE THROWS! That is a very simple cure to a bigger problem, our team is not comprised of a ton of great shooters. That is the problem. PC is the best FT shooting team in the country, do you think that is because they spend 300% more time in practice on foul shooting. I know the answer to that question.

And we didn't lose to Fordham because of FT shooting, we lost to them because we could not stop dribble penetration, specifically from Brendan Frazier. Same way they beat us last year.

[BPR2010]

I will reference the Shaq argument applying to most if not all big men. Being a Spartans fan since childhood, I've had the privilege of watching Adreian Payne, Sparty's center, turn from just a freak athlete, to a likely 1st round draft pick. Let me just post his freshman FT average. 46.9 percent. Pathetic. Sad. Whatever negative adjective you'd like to use. Now, following his work ethic documented by Tom Izzo, I knew this kid would improve. Not counting the fact that at one point this season he was shooting 46 percent from 3 point land (this as a 6'10, 250 pound center), his FT percentage has blossomed to 81 percent this season. He led the ENTIRE BIG TEN in that stat last season shooting 85 percent. Again, this was a guy who, in his freshman year, shot 47 percent. I can tell you how this was improved from following the team, but I'd love to hear your theories. He's playing in tougher arenas than Rhody goes to. He's playing in Austin, Columbus, Madison, Ann Arbor, etc. Game atmosphere should have zero effect on this. He's a prime example of my argument.

[bigappleram]

There is an exception to every rule. There are also countless guys that shoot the 3 better than free throws. Which seems inexplicable. I just dont think our FT woes correlate to spending no time practicing them.

THere are a finite amount of hours in a day. So how much they spend working on all the other facets of the game needs to be balanced, unless u want a 90% FT shooting team that cant dribble, defend, shoot, block shots, rebound, run a break, run an out of bounds play, etc.

[rodfromcranston]

When a guy like Ray Allen is out shooting 3 hours before games,
at his age, that says something.
There's a guy who could say, "Hey, I've done it all. Why should I practice at
my age?"
Says volumes about the man and his work ethic. Most greats put in the extra effort.
It's part of the drive that makes them great.
Thanks, BPR. I love Tom Izzo's teams.
BAR, we lost because if we made HALF of the free throws we missed, we win, regardless of whatever Frazier did.
We've lost SIX games, where the margin of loss was less (in some cases a lot less))
than the amount of free throws missed.
Hurley can be snippy about it, but the truth is, our free throw shooting
has destroyed what could have been a banner season.

[bigappleram]

Rod , its impossible to "forecast" the game going the exact same way by assuming we made the free throws. You cant just say we lost by 5 and missed 10 free throws, so if we hit 6 we would have won.

[CTRamfan]

For what it is worth.......

We take 25 ft/game.
We shoot 66%
Our opponents have shot 65%
The national average for D1 is 70%

So, if we shot 70%, that would be one more point per game.

[Keaney.Blue]

For what it is worth.......

We take 25 ft/game.
We shoot 66%
Our opponents have shot 65%
The national average for D1 is 70%

So, if we shot 70%, that would be one more point per game.

Math and logic prevail! Thanks for some pragmatism CT.

[rodfromcranston]

We shot 50% vs. PC. 50%!!! We make TWO and we win.
We missed 8 vs. St. Louis. We lost by one.
Sorry those are the facts. I could go through almost all but
three losses and say the very same thing.
If you don't think out free throw shooting hasn't hurt this team,
I don't know what team you're watching.

[bigappleram]

When a guy like Ray Allen is out shooting 3 hours before games,
at his age, that says something.
There's a guy who could say, "Hey, I've done it all. Why should I practice at
my age?"
Says volumes about the man and his work ethic. Most greats put in the extra effort.
It's part of the drive that makes them great.
Thanks, BPR. I love Tom Izzo's teams.
BAR, we lost because if we made HALF of the free throws we missed, we win, regardless of whatever Frazier did.
We've lost SIX games, where the margin of loss was less (in some cases a lot less))
than the amount of free throws missed.
Hurley can be snippy about it, but the truth is, our free throw shooting
has destroyed what could have been a banner season.

If you think missed free throws are the only thing between us and a "banner season" then we can agree to disagree. I think losing Hare and Aaman, and the lack of development from Iffy, which amounted to a paper thin front court have something to do with it. I think not having a good PG has something to do with it. I think having 2 Freshmen as two of your best players has something to do with it. I think having to play a paper-thin swing 3 at the 4 and 5 at times has something to do with it. I think having to integrate 7 new faces with 2 hold-overs has something to do with it. Basically all of the above and other things have more to do with our record than below average FT shooting. Just pointing to FT shooting seems a bit myopic and short sighted.

[rodfromcranston]

Sorry, with all you mentioned, if we made our free throws, it's a different season.
PC seems to be doing pretty well with worse personnel problems
than ours.

[CTRamfan]

I talked twice to asistants in the past about technique. Back in the dark ages, that was my Summer job mostly in H.S., and to a lesser extent in college.

My coaches would have considered X's shot flawed for the sidespin. Most bad shots as I see it, are as a result of lost rythym.....
1. Place your feet so one is slightly ahead. [ to balance your body]
2. Make sure your shoulders are square to the backboard.
3. Bounce the ball if you like to start the timing of the shooting motion. [ do not spin the ball in your hands]
4. Bend your knees comfortably at the start of your motion.
5. Make sure your eyes are focused on the front of the rim. [really important]
6. Make sure you hold the ball mostly with your fingers [for balance in your hand].
7. Release the ball in front of you. [ not over your head while not looking the ball into the hoop]
7. Practice the rythym of the shot A LOT...../

[theblueram]

and our misses do not take into account the misses on one and one's. would be nice to see the number of missed free throws we missed because we didn't even have a chance to make them.

[bigappleram]

also....center your lead foot on the nail on the floor, which every basketball court ever made has to mark the center of the rim. in the first half, step back 4-6 inches to account for adrenaline/energy....in second half go back to right up to the line.

[bigappleram]

we also shoot more FTs than most teams in our conference, which balances out the percentage differences if you look at a game-by-game comparison.

[rambone 78]

Great points, BAR.

And yes, FT shooting has contributed to us losing some close games.

All of the above.

The only thing I'll add to the FT debate, is that yes, our players certainly practice FT shooting. And I imagine the staff has tried to improve their FT shooting technique.

They just need to practice them more. Whatever it takes. If you want to be good, that is.

Whatever they are doing now, isn't enough.

[theblueram]

we also shoot more FTs than most teams in our conference, which balances out the percentage differences if you look at a game-by-game comparison.

This doesn"t make much sense. So if we shoot 50% on 20 FT's and opponents shoot 70% on 10 FT's then thats 10 points for us and 7 for them. So we lose by 2. If we shot 70% then that's 14 points and we win by 2.

[bigappleram]

PC and SLU could be great examples, 1 pt losses where we missed a lot of FTs. After that, zilch. Those are two more wins, not my definition of a banner season. 13-9 is better than 11-11, but not dramatically.

[bigappleram]

we also shoot more FTs than most teams in our conference, which balances out the percentage differences if you look at a game-by-game comparison.

This doesn"t make much sense. So if we shoot 50% on 20 FT's and opponents shoot 70% on 10 FT's then thats 10 points for us and 7 for them. So we lose by 2. If we shot 70% then that's 14 points and we win by 2.

just saying our below average FT shooting is somewhat mitigated by us taking more than our opponents, only as it relates to the argument of whether better FT shooting is the driving factor in our W/L record.

[rambone 78]

I would be thrilled if we could shoot FT's at, say 70-72% as a team.

Not asking for much there. Even if we land more talent, if we keep clanking away at 65.7% next year, we're not going anywhere.

I understand every team loses a game due to poor FT shooting now and then, but if we lose even 2 or 3 a year due to it, that could mean the difference between the NIT and NCAA's.

BAR, you forgot about Detroit. 8-19 as I recall, a 2 pt. loss. That was pathetic.

Add just those 3 wins, and 14-8 puts us in the conversation for an NIT bid.

[theblueram]

and the there was Detroit. Both teams made 27 Fg's. Except we hit 5 more three's then them. That would put us up 5. But we shot 42% from the line going 8-19. They shot 68 going 15-22. We had the advantage and lost on free throws.

[rodfromcranston]

ONLY PC AND ST.LOUIS???????????????
Detroit - 2 point loss - 8-19 free throws
Lassalle- 10 point loss -11-21 free throws
St. Joe's-4 point loss -10-15 free throws
Fordham-6 point loss 17-28 free throws
And, as Blue mentioned, these don't show us how many
one and ones were missed, taking 2 points off the board.
The Lasalle game was the only stretch in this group.
16-6 is a damned good season YEAH!

[CTRamfan]

My point exactly.......If the technique was solid, and reproducible, these wide varitions could be minimized

[rambone 78]

Rod, agree with you except for LaSalle and St Joes.

The refs boned us at St Joes.

So, 15-7 would be nice, yes.

[rodfromcranston]

I'll take it! I said Lasalle was a stretch.
The unknown factor in all this is, how many one and ones were missed?
I guess we'll all have to agree to disagree on why we lose.

[Gonebarongone]

We shot 50% vs. PC. 50%!!! We make TWO and we win.
We missed 8 vs. St. Louis. We lost by one.
Sorry those are the facts. I could go through almost all but
three losses and say the very same thing.
If you don't think out free throw shooting hasn't hurt this team,
I don't know what team you're watching.

Well. That's undeniably true. But, it's sort of tough to just do the math like that. Making the free throws would have caused the situations to change, defenses/offense change, butterfly effect yada yada. I also just saw that we are actually shooting better than our opponents. Even if Rhody gets up to 70% next year, you would expect our opponents to bump up, too.

[ramster]

Here are the A10 FT Team Percentages through roughly the half way point.

FREE THROW PCT G FTM FTA Pct
1 St. Bonaventure 7 133 178 0.747
2 La Salle 7 124 173 0.717
3 Duquesne 7 119 168 0.708
4 Saint Louis 7 120 170 0.706
Dayton 7 108 153 0.706
6 George Mason 7 80 114 0.702
7 VCU 7 121 174 0.695
8 Richmond 7 124 181 0.685
9 Fordham 8 120 178 0.674
10 Massachusetts 7 91 140 0.65
11 George Washington 7 116 180 0.644
12 Rhode Island 7 108 170 0.635
13 Saint Joseph's 7 96 166 0.578

[theblueram]

If you miss a free throw, you don't get a point
if you don't get a point you could lose the game
if you lose the game the fans will be upset
if the fans are upset they don't go to games
if the fans don't go to games you play in an empty arena
don't play in an empty arena

[bigappleram]

Lassalle- 10 point loss -11-21 free throws
St. Joe's-4 point loss -10-15 free throws
Fordham-6 point loss 17-28 free throws

Sorry I stand corrected, if we shot 100% from the line we would have won these games. what was I thinking, given how easy that is.

[rodfromcranston]

Don't play in an empty arena. Pick Fios.

6 point loss with 11 shots missed is 100%?
I said the Lasalle one was a stretch.
Tell me about Detroit.
So, that's FOUR more wins. Like four more wins is something to
make light of?

[rambone 78]

Rod, I think it's a combination of a lot of factors, like you and BAR have said.

But FT shooting has been directly responsible for a few losses. Doesn't matter much this year, but it cannot continue in the future.

Dan might get defensive about the criticism now, but he knows it.

Ramster, .635? Awful. The league as a whole sucks, but that is bad.

And that also means we've gotten WORSE since league play started.

[bigappleram]

I'll take it! I said Lasalle was a stretch.
The unknown factor in all this is, how many one and ones were missed?
I guess we'll all have to agree to disagree on why we lose.

Rod, I agree they are A factor, not THE factor. That we can agree on, but I think why we lose each game requires a bit more going inside the numbers. The biggest factor in losing the 3 games above was not FT shooting. PC and SLU I will give you, Detroit on the fence, the 3 you cite above no way. Play better perimeter D and keep Gil in the game and we beat Fordham even if we shoot 50% from the line. I have to believe if the driving force behind us losing was poor FT shooting that our coach who's livelihood relies upon us winning games would have us only practicing free throws.

[bigappleram]

Rod in your scenario of those 3 games we would have had to shoot 95% to win. Not a realistic argument.

[bigappleram]

by our theory GW would be 22-0 if they shot FTs at 90%. Just go by our own conference stats conveniently put up by ramster...GW and Umass who up to last week were our two best teams are at the bottom. With Fordham and Duquesne, two of the weaker teams, at the top. The correlation between FT% and winning seems low, doesn't it?

[rodfromcranston]

You're right, as to all those factors hounding our season, but I'm
pointing out the easiest one to solve. (I think)
So, PC, St. Louis and Detroit wins, puts us on the road to a nice improvement in
wins over last year.
It's still three more wins than we now have.
Detroit -2 point loss -11 missed free throws 42%
PC-1 point loss -6 missed free throws 50%
St. Louis 1 point loss - 5 missed free throws 66%
Far from 100%. Do the math.

[rambone 78]

A good FT shooting team can make up for some weaknesses elsewhere, in that they can pull out a few close ones in which they would otherwise lose. PC is a good example of that.

This team needs all the help they can get right now.

Of course, if we were 15-7 right now, a lot of people would look at the record and say, hey we're pretty good. We know better, but I would rather be 15-7 than 11-11.

Wouldn't you?

[theblueram]

Free throw shooting wins close games. No doubt about it. See 1998 URI vs Stanford. It's not rocket science. A ten point and under game is going to come down to free throws. Make em and you win. Miss em and you may lose.

[bigappleram]

Of course Bone, and agree Rod 2-3 wins in this season would make a world of difference in the perception game. I do however find it interesting that the FT stats above show almost zero correlation between winning and FT shooting efficacy. You want to say PC has a good record bc they are a great FT shooting team, and I would argue they have a good record because they have an experienced core to build around, an excellent PG, a true 7 footer and a bunch of above average perimeter shooters. Yes the Ft shooting helps, but again not the biggest factor and IMO secondary to all of the above.

[bigappleram]

Dear God, now we lost to Stanford b/c Tyson missed 3 free throws. Were you at the game? Did the Arthur Lee 3 pointer, the strip of Cat, the 3 pt play by Madsen, the TO by ARD or JHs inability to calm our team have anything to do with it? You guys are proposing simple solutions to much more complex issues.

[ramster]

Lassalle- 10 point loss -11-21 free throws
St. Joe's-4 point loss -10-15 free throws
Fordham-6 point loss 17-28 free throws

Sorry I stand corrected, if we shot 100% from the line we would have won these games. what was I thinking, given how easy that is.

I think the reason behind our losses goes beyond FT shooting where we rank 12 of 13.
We are dead LAST in 3 point shooting 13 of 13.
BUT we are 6th in FG%. FG% leadership comes from #10 ranked Martin @ 55% and #15 ranked Biruta 52%.
Moral of the story could be to pound the ball inside more.

We are not a good FT shooting team or 3 point shooting team - at least not through the first 7 league games.

FREE THROW PCT G FTM FTA Pct
1 St. Bonaventure 7 133 178 0.747
2 La Salle 7 124 173 0.717
3 Duquesne 7 119 168 0.708
4 Saint Louis 7 120 170 0.706
Dayton 7 108 153 0.706
6 George Mason 7 80 114 0.702
7 VCU 7 121 174 0.695
8 Richmond 7 124 181 0.685
9 Fordham 8 120 178 0.674
10 Massachusetts 7 91 140 0.65
11 George Washington 7 116 180 0.644
12 Rhode Island 7 108 170 0.635
13 Saint Joseph's 7 96 166 0.578

Only EC Mathews in Top 15 ranked #15 at 77%

3-POINT FG PCT G 3FGM 3FGA Pct
1 Saint Joseph's 7 50 127 0.394
2 Duquesne 7 54 138 0.391
3 George Mason 7 37 95 0.389
4 Dayton 7 43 116 0.371
5 Massachusetts 7 40 113 0.354
6 Saint Louis 7 44 125 0.352
7 VCU 7 56 161 0.348
8 Richmond 7 42 122 0.344
9 Fordham 8 62 194 0.32
10 St. Bonaventure 7 37 116 0.319
11 George Washington 7 31 98 0.316
12 La Salle 7 43 137 0.314
13 Rhode Island 7 29 93 0.312

No URI Player Ranked in Top 15

FIELD GOAL PERCENTAGES G FGM FGA Pct
1 Saint Joseph's 7 170 353 0.482
2 George Washington 7 179 372 0.481
3 Massachusetts 7 187 399 0.469
4 George Mason 7 198 430 0.46
5 Dayton 7 163 362 0.45
6 Rhode Island 7 167 376 0.444
7 Saint Louis 7 169 382 0.442
8 St. Bonaventure 7 169 386 0.438
9 Richmond 7 158 380 0.416
10 VCU 7 187 452 0.414
11 Duquesne 7 164 397 0.413
12 La Salle 7 157 381 0.412
13 Fordham 8 181 491 0.369

Martin ranked #10 @ 55% and Biruta ranked #15 @ 52%

[rambone 78]

It all factors in. The whole package.

It's easy to see the stats, and when you brick 'em up like we do, in most close games, you can see the result.

Maybe when we get the talent we need, we can afford to have an off night shooting from the line, and get away with it. Right now we can't.

The only game this year we could afford that, was the Dayton game. We would have won that one shooting 35% from the line.

But that's a rarity right now.

BAR, stop torturing us with the ugly details of that game. I had almost forgotten about them.
Not really.

[And I agree, the FT misses by Tyson weren't the sole reason we lost]

[theblueram]

Dear God, now we lost to Stanford b/c Tyson missed 3 free throws. Were you at the game? Did the Arthur Lee 3 pointer, the strip of Cat, the 3 pt play by Madsen, the TO by ARD or JHs inability to calm our team have anything to do with it? You guys are proposing simple solutions to much more complex issues.

Ha, actually I blame it on my father in law who came to our apartment at the 2 minute mark and proceeded to give me a lecture on the finer points of a table saw. Loved the man but sheesh, bad timing.....

[bigappleram]

Tyson's free throws would never have happened if the game played out the way it should have. At that point the game was already lost. They weren't the sole factor, nor were they any factor. By the time he stepped to the line the game was lost. Regardless what the time or score was, anyone in the arena that day could tell our team was already defeated. The reason we lost that game, was that our coach for some reason lost his composure at the most crucial moment, and his team followed suit.

[bigappleram]

Dear God, now we lost to Stanford b/c Tyson missed 3 free throws. Were you at the game? Did the Arthur Lee 3 pointer, the strip of Cat, the 3 pt play by Madsen, the TO by ARD or JHs inability to calm our team have anything to do with it? You guys are proposing simple solutions to much more complex issues.

Ha, actually I blame it on my father in law who came to our apartment at the 2 minute mark and proceeded to give me a lecture on the finer points of a table saw. Loved the man but sheesh, bad timing.....

HA, and I blame my mother who at the 1 min mark turned to me and said "now we have to go to San Antonio"? Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.