Big East - Basketball Only Schools Leaving

rambone 78 · Unread post by **rambone 78** » 11 years ago

Bigger hits? This is as big as it gets, without totally disbanding the league.

Having said all this, I just hope you're right, Rod.

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 11 years ago

Pittsburgh, Villanova, Penn State, West Virginia, and VATech.
YES, bigger hits.

The Dude · Unread post by **The Dude** » 11 years ago

I wonder if Dayton and St. Louis will change their mind and decide to stay after observing the new Big East next year.
I submit my argument below.
Georgetown, Marquette and Villanova are strong basketball schools. Both St. Johns and PC have been steadily improving and so has their recruiting. Xavier is weaker this year. I don't know how this conference would ever get more than 5 bids. I mean think about it. They have just created a new conference. There's only so many bids to go around.
This is what bids they got last year:
Big East (9):
Cincinnati, (old Big East)
Connecticut, (old Big East)
Georgetown, (Catholic 7)
Louisville, (leaving)
Marquette, (Catholic 7)
Notre Dame, (leaving)
South Florida, (old Big East)
Syracuse, (leaving)
West Virginia (leaving)
Atlantic 10 (4):
Saint Louis,
Temple,
St. Bonaventure,
Xavier
Colonial Athletic (1):
VCU (now A10)
...but Colonial will still get 1 different team(bid) in.
The old Big East which had 9 will still most likely have 2 maybe 3 bids to the NCAA tournament.
UCONN
Cincy
Temple...or other
The A10 which had 4 will still have at least 2 you would think. One at bare minimum...but with Hurleys at helm I see VCU and URI as contenders.
VCU
....and 1 other...URI? LaSalle? Richmond? St. Louis (in 2013, until they leave in 2014)
This means the new Big East will most likely get 3 bids...maybe 5 at most if old Big East gets 2 and A10 gets 1 (assuming schools like Syracuse, Notre Dame, Louisville, etc...don't have their programs fall off a cliff and continue to make the tournament, as they usually do.)
This is why I wonder if Dayton and St. Louis will contemplate staying in the A10....after they have a chance to witness how tough it will be to be successful in the new Big East. Xavier and Butler are going to get beat up next year. The whole new Big East is going to beat each other up and in reality there are most likely 5+ teams that won't even sniff a bid year after year.
Come selection time, the log jam will be worse than Fat Bastard with constipation.
Even a slightly weaker schedule with a ton of wins can look better than a team from the new Big East that has a ton of loses with a slightly tougher schedule. A10 teams can always schedule a tougher out of conference schedule to boost the SOS.
I'm not saying this will happen...I'm merely saying it "wouldn't surprise me" if the new Big East only gets 3 or 4 bids, each year while the A10 gets 3 because of this. If St. Louis and Dayton go to the new Big East I have a tough time seeing them having any success in that league.
Obviously this is my opinion. Who the hell knows...
I'm probably getting delusional in my older age with delusions of granger. URI a tournament contender??? I mean...seriously...I must be losing it...right?? haha.

ramfan85 · Unread post by **ramfan85** » 11 years ago

We've always survived, but now we're running out of teams to add. We've lost good programs before.I may be wrong, but I don't think they all left at the same time.
I don't like this at all. I wish we could hear something positive out of the A10 offices.

peeps4life · Unread post by **peeps4life** » 11 years ago

ramfan85 wrote:We've always survived, but now we're running out of teams to add. We've lost good programs before.I may be wrong, but I don't think they all left at the same time.
I don't like this at all. I wish we could hear something positive out of the A10 offices.

this is the part rod keeps forgetting... as if there are infinite good programs to add.

Rhody72 · Unread post by **Rhody72** » 11 years ago

The new BE and C7 will not be major conferences, and as such will no longer have the cache or command the largesse of the old BE. The better teams will always be looking for a ticket to a major.

reef · Unread post by **reef** » 11 years ago

I am devastated losing X and Butler

Unread post by **SGreenwell** » 11 years ago

peeps4life wrote:
ramfan85 wrote:We've always survived, but now we're running out of teams to add. We've lost good programs before.I may be wrong, but I don't think they all left at the same time.
I don't like this at all. I wish we could hear something positive out of the A10 offices.
this is the part rod keeps forgetting... as if there are infinite good programs to add.

Aren't there? Or, to frame it this way - Excluding the 60s, Butler first made the NCAAs in the 60s, then skipped until 1997, which started off their current run basically. So, we're talking about 16 years. From 1999 onward, George Mason has made six NCAA appearance. Beforehand, just one.

While part of this is that the tournament expanded and will continue to expand, basketball programs are like anything else. They grow, they decay, they don't progress in a linear fashion. If you told URI fans the year Harrick left that they wouldn't make the NCAAs for a decade and counting, they would have told you that you were crazy. (And oddly enough, from the same time frame, Butler instead became a perennial NCAA contender.) As long as there is NCAA basketball, conferences are going to be poaching from one another, whether it's the Big East taking from the Atlantic 10, the Atlantic 10 taking from the MAC, or the MAC taking from the Sunbelt League or some other low-level conference. I think it's premature to say that any conference or program is going to suck and die out until they actually do it, or they publicly put on the brakes (like Holy Cross did in the 80s).

seanmc94 · Unread post by **seanmc94** » 11 years ago

Red,

Keep the jokes coming my friend...

BFC · Unread post by **BFC** » 11 years ago

The truly bad part about this is not the quality of the conference leftovers, yes a good program can still excel in a bad conference. It's the revenue gap between us and the programs we want to be competing against, its growing by alot. The new Big East will be non-football schools, just like us (sorry FCS fans but its true), but they're going to have $3 million plus in their pocket just for playing. That's the coaching staff paid for, travel budget (including charter flights) paid for, all without winning a game or selling a ticket. People keep saying conference is all that matters, it's not the conference, it's the money.

rjsuperfly66 · Unread post by **rjsuperfly66** » 11 years ago

The different between previous realignments and now are that until today, no basketball-only programs had really been poached.

Football programs might have left, but they were never really the "cream" of the conference. Some of them operated in the top half of the conference with basketball schools, others were way down near the bottom where most of their value was with football.

With this bout of realignment, no matter how you slice and dice it, 3 of the top 5 A-10 programs are leaving.

The A-10 will be able to survive, but will always struggle to get bigger or more successful with Fordham, Duquesne, and others.

rambone 78 · Unread post by **rambone 78** » 11 years ago

BFC, you are so right.

What do you think VCU is thinking right now? This isn't what THEY signed up for.

They are paying their coaching staff 2 million a year. That's just salary.

If I'm VCU, I'm looking to get out.

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 11 years ago

rambone 78 wrote:BFC, you are so right.

What do you think VCU is thinking right now? This isn't what THEY signed up for.

They are paying their coaching staff 2 million a year. That's just salary.

If I'm VCU, I'm looking to get out.

Still the best league for them. Where are they going to go? The only leagues that haven't lost teams in all this are the SEC and the PAC12. Otherwise everyone has been hit. Relax. This stuff happens.

rambone 78 · Unread post by **rambone 78** » 11 years ago

Still would be nice to know what the A10 is doing about this, but I'll guess we should hear something soon.

BFC · Unread post by **BFC** » 11 years ago

rambone 78 wrote:BFC, you are so right.

What do you think VCU is thinking right now? This isn't what THEY signed up for.

They are paying their coaching staff 2 million a year. That's just salary.

If I'm VCU, I'm looking to get out.

What is VCU going to do? Run back to the CAA? They probably still have some hope of getting the Big East call down the line.

rjsuperfly66 · Unread post by **rjsuperfly66** » 11 years ago

BFC wrote:
rambone 78 wrote:BFC, you are so right.

What do you think VCU is thinking right now? This isn't what THEY signed up for.

They are paying their coaching staff 2 million a year. That's just salary.

If I'm VCU, I'm looking to get out.
What is VCU going to do? Run back to the CAA? They probably still have some hope of getting the Big East call down the line.

I know I was crucified for this scenario a while back, but what is stopping VCU from going back to the CAA and joining a "southern/mid-atlantic"-centric conference?

What is stopping them from going back with George Mason, and attacking many of the "southern/Mid-atlantic" teams that the A-10 might be interested in?

Travel budgets wouldn't need to be as high, TV $$ would likely be in similar ballpark. Heck, maybe they could attract some of the A-10 more southern teams like Richmond or GW to join them.

A long shot? Probably. But I don't think it's completely impossible that it could happen.

That is why it is important for the A-10 to strike first. If they get George Mason to come over, any bad possibility of teams leaving is negated.

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 11 years ago

rambone 78 wrote:Still would be nice to know what the A10 is doing about this, but I'll guess we should hear something soon.

What do you want them to do? Invent a new school with a blue chip basketball program? Maybe send out invites to Kansas and Kentucky?

rambone 78 · Unread post by **rambone 78** » 11 years ago

It's possible, 66. I doubt it, but the door might be open to that.

Hey, maybe URI, VCU, Richmond, etc. call UConn and Cincy. Try and keep UMass, bring back Temple.

Let's get together!

Now that would be a league to rival the new BE. That would also bring big TV money calling.

BFC · Unread post by **BFC** » 11 years ago

rjsuperfly66 wrote:I know I was crucified for this scenario a while back, but what is stopping VCU from going back to the CAA and joining a "southern/mid-atlantic"-centric conference?

What is stopping them from going back with George Mason, and attacking many of the "southern/Mid-atlantic" teams that the A-10 might be interested in?

Travel budgets wouldn't need to be as high, TV $$ would likely be in similar ballpark. Heck, maybe they could attract some of the A-10 more southern teams like Richmond or GW to join them.

A long shot? Probably. But I don't think it's completely impossible that it could happen.

That is why it is important for the A-10 to strike first. If they get George Mason to come over, any bad possibility of teams leaving is negated.

I don't pretend to understand all of the decisions being made, but while I can envision some sort of A-10 - CAA merger, I don't see this happening. Conferences are getting less and less area-centric, why would VCU be so determined to be in a local conference?

rjsuperfly66 · Unread post by **rjsuperfly66** » 11 years ago

BFC wrote:
rjsuperfly66 wrote:I know I was crucified for this scenario a while back, but what is stopping VCU from going back to the CAA and joining a "southern/mid-atlantic"-centric conference?

What is stopping them from going back with George Mason, and attacking many of the "southern/Mid-atlantic" teams that the A-10 might be interested in?

Travel budgets wouldn't need to be as high, TV $$ would likely be in similar ballpark. Heck, maybe they could attract some of the A-10 more southern teams like Richmond or GW to join them.

A long shot? Probably. But I don't think it's completely impossible that it could happen.

That is why it is important for the A-10 to strike first. If they get George Mason to come over, any bad possibility of teams leaving is negated.
I don't pretend to understand all of the decisions being made, but while I can envision some sort of A-10 - CAA merger, I don't see this happening. Conferences are getting less and less area-centric, why would VCU be so determined to be in a local conference?

It depends how VCU views the conference. They could look at it and say "Well if we are going to be in a one or two bid conference here, why not just go back to the CAA where it is a 1 or 2 bid conference, and maybe bring some friends with us?"

There needs to be a real benefit for programs for area to not really matter. Again, I still think it's unlikely, but I don't rule anything out at this point.

Unread post by **ATPTourFan** » 11 years ago

ATTENTION:

This thread has run its course and now remains the place to discuss the new C7+++ conference which apparently will remain named the Big East.

HOWEVER, for everyone who would like to discuss URI's future basketball conference, we have a thread for that entitled NEW A10.

In this new thread, we discuss potential new members for the A10 or other out of the box strategies to form a new hoops centric conference where Rhody is a member.

Discussion on the new basketball-only BigEast will remain here, for those who would like to remain on this topic.

BFC · Unread post by **BFC** » 11 years ago

rjsuperfly66 wrote:It depends how VCU views the conference. They could look at it and say "Well if we are going to be in a one or two bid conference here, why not just go back to the CAA where it is a 1 or 2 bid conference, and maybe bring some friends with us?"

There needs to be a real benefit for programs for area to not really matter. Again, I still think it's unlikely, but I don't rule anything out at this point.

There's alot of scenarios we can throw against the wall under the unlikely but anything is possible threshold. I don't see why VCU wouldn't wait it out and see if the A-10 does really flop first, while trying to keep their profile as high as possible for the next big shake-up.

rjsuperfly66 · Unread post by **rjsuperfly66** » 11 years ago

BFC wrote:
rjsuperfly66 wrote:It depends how VCU views the conference. They could look at it and say "Well if we are going to be in a one or two bid conference here, why not just go back to the CAA where it is a 1 or 2 bid conference, and maybe bring some friends with us?"

There needs to be a real benefit for programs for area to not really matter. Again, I still think it's unlikely, but I don't rule anything out at this point.
There's alot of scenarios we can throw against the wall under the unlikely but anything is possible threshold. I don't see why VCU wouldn't wait it out and see if the A-10 does really flop first, while trying to keep their profile as high as possible for the next big shake-up.

The only thing most of these schools have is to take control of their own destiny.

The A-10 is not going to have the votes to get rid of any schools.

A group of 7 schools would have to decide to break off, and then split revenue and other $$ with the teams they broke off from. Assuming there are 9 A-10 teams are left, you would leave 2 in the dark and split everything with them.

So option 1 is to split and drop the dead-weight and option 2 is to expand with the dead weight. Other options include partial mergers. But you need at least 7 teams from one conference to keep NCAA bid I believe.

Option 1 to me would be the most intriguing, but also the most risky. Will TV help drive them like they did the C7?

If that is me, that is the option I think I would like best, and would also be most marketable.

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 11 years ago

THEY PAID SHAKA SMART THAT MONEY WHEN THEY WERE IN THE CAA!
I'm starting to get pissed off at this stupid negativity, and hand wringing.
Like a bunch of old ladies on The Hill at a wake.
Cut the whining, it's sickening!

rjsuperfly66 · Unread post by **rjsuperfly66** » 11 years ago

rodfromcranston wrote:THEY PAID SHAKA SMART THAT MONEY WHEN THEY WERE IN THE CAA!
I'm starting to get pissed off at this stupid negativity, and hand wringing.
Like a bunch of old ladies on The Hill at a wake.
Cut the whining, it's sickening!

Rod,

Do you realize how much creative accounting it took to get there?

VCU basically let Shaka become his own entity as opposed to a representative of the school.

It is Shaka Smart Basketball Camp, not affliated with VCU.

It is his endorsements, not the school.

The school has really no control over him or his "product."

The school itself is paying Smart a good salary comapred to conference foes, but a lot of the additional cash that is allowing him to stay VCU really has no part of, and it's a risk a lot of schools prefer not to take. They just wouldn't have the revenue to afford him otherwise. He has basically had to sell himself.

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 11 years ago

My point, which you clearly missed is, he was paid while VCU was in the CAA.
Stop trying to rile the chickens, and go back to the PC board and tell each other
about your national championship aspirations from a weaker conference than you were in before.

rjsuperfly66 · Unread post by **rjsuperfly66** » 11 years ago

rodfromcranston wrote:My point, which you clearly missed is, he was paid while VCU was in the CAA.
Stop trying to rile the chickens, and go back to the PC board and tell each other
about your national championship aspirations from a weaker conference than you were in before.

I didn't miss that point at all. Smart's base salary is just north of $1 million. It's a good salary, but nothing impressive, especially after a Final Four run.

It's the other $1.5-2.0 million he is making from endorsements, camps, and perks that allow him to stay at VCU. VCU took their name off those products allowing Smart to make more than a small portion of them. A big risk on their part.

Most schools (say a Kentucky) will pay you more in a base salary but give you zip from selling the brand.

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 11 years ago

I'll take it. I hope Thorr took note of how VCU paid Smart.

rjsuperfly66 · Unread post by **rjsuperfly66** » 11 years ago

rodfromcranston wrote:I'll take it. I hope Thorr took note of how VCU paid Smart.

It's an interesting thought.

Being a public university, does Thorr have power to do that, or do they have to answer to the state to get approval?

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 11 years ago

Hellooooo! VCU is a State school, too.
The URI Athletic Department has more autonomy that you might think.

rjsuperfly66 · Unread post by **rjsuperfly66** » 11 years ago

rodfromcranston wrote:Hellooooo! VCU is a State school, too.
The URI Athletic Department has more autonomy that you might think.

Duhh you are right my fault.

I think Shaka's contract is more than reasonable for other's like URI to replicate.

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 11 years ago

I love the people over there just drunk with joy over UConn not being in
th Satanic Seven.
They're making fun of UConn fans for pointing out their success over the past decades.
Gee, they were only the most successful program in New England basketball history.
Ditto for the women's program.
Talk about jealousy. As if any one of those 7 wouldn't trade places with UConn, just for their three
NCAA Championships.
Yet, they point to their 7's history, which is far more aged than UConns, as if it were significant today.
Hypocricy at it's worst.
3-2-1 wait for the PC poster's double or triple team, now........

BFC · Unread post by **BFC** » 11 years ago

"The Catholic 7's exit from the Big East is being expedited by Fox Sports Network. The network initially contacted the seven schools and laid the groundwork for them to leave the Big East with the promise of a lucrative media-rights deal, a source said."

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketb ... ng-sources

Gonebarongone · Unread post by **Gonebarongone** » 11 years ago

rjsuperfly66 wrote:
rodfromcranston wrote:Hellooooo! VCU is a State school, too.
The URI Athletic Department has more autonomy that you might think.
Duhh you are right my fault.

I think Shaka's contract is more than reasonable for other's like URI to replicate.

It's surely a state school and the Smart contract really wouldn't be that hard to replicate but Virginia and Rhode Island are world's apart as far as finances go. Just look at the municipal debt bond ratings. So, yes, both state schools but a lot easier to swallow in VA.

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 11 years ago

True, and they have a Governor with an actual brain, too.

seanmc94 · Unread post by **seanmc94** » 11 years ago

Rod,

I keep forgetting, only Rhody fans are allowed to get excited for the future. Everyone else, sit quietly.

rjsuperfly66 · Unread post by **rjsuperfly66** » 11 years ago

Rod,

PC fans are giddy about UCONN for one real reason:

They were a huge part of realignment.

'Cuse and Pitt obviously started the dominoes, but as soon as they decided to leave, UCONN the next day was out begging to go to any conference that would take them, B1G or ACC.

Their need to keep doing that made no other program feel safe, and other's began to panic as well, leading to zero stability in the conference.

For that alone, it's funny to see that UCONN, a huge part of realignment, is a program without a home, who will be competing against the likes of Tulane, East Carolina, UCF, SMU, etc. in their needs to find football relevancy. Sure PC, SJU, SHU, and DePaul don't belong on the Mt. Rushmore of College Hoops, but if those 4 are bad, some of these football/basketball schools are downright freakin' terrible, incomparable on any level.

Now after causing the panic, they are the one's panicing. Those pompous pricks thought that they would be surefire locks to be in the B1G or ACC back in 2011. Now, the only way that will happen is if one of those conferences breaks apart becoming a second-tier football conference.

Tell me you didn't feel the same way about PC back in December, praying they would be a puppy without a home? But now that it's PC laughing about UCONN's state, we are a bunch of clowns

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 11 years ago

Double teamed instead of triple teamed.
I worry about URI. PC doesn't affect anything we do.
As for the UConn disdain, I get it.
However, for people to belittle their awesome history of the past couple of
decades, reeks of jealously.

rjsuperfly66 · Unread post by **rjsuperfly66** » 11 years ago

rodfromcranston wrote:Double teamed instead of triple teamed.
I worry about URI. PC doesn't affect anything we do.
As for the UConn disdain, I get it.
However, for people to belittle their awesome history of the past couple of
decades, reeks of jealously.

Anyone who can downplay 3 Championships since '99 is an idiot.

I think the things people mock more is that just because you have had success doesn't mean you will continue to be successful.

UCONN fans have this opinion that they are the sacred cow and will always be the sacred cow, ignoring the fact that Calhoun made them sacred, not the name UCONN.

They can still be a great program under Ollie, but it shouldn't be taken for granted. They seem to think the name UCONN is made of gold and should take them wherever they need to go.

For a group that has been punished by realignment, basically told to their face by multiple conferences, "For whatever reason, WE DON'T WANT YOU!" they still believe their brand is the face of college sports.

Guess what? Football drives college sports, not basketball accomplishments. That is what scared PC fans about realignment at the beginning. Not only are we basketball only, we haven't been a good basketball only. Lucky the proper agreements were in place to save PC, otherwise, imagine what could have been? PC could have been that AE or NEC team.

So yes, it is fun to watch them squirm and believe that they belong at the table, because they don't, and there is no guarantee they will ever have a spot like that.

Gonebarongone · Unread post by **Gonebarongone** » 11 years ago

Uconn is just in a tricky spot. They have put a LOT of money into football. None of the big 5 BCS conferences want them and the next best options for hoops (C7 and/or A10) don't want to mess with football teams because of the conflicts of interest. I guess they probably stick in the new football big east and hope the hoops doesn't atrophy as they wait to see if the B10 nabs an ACC team or two and slide into their place.

rambone 78 · Unread post by **rambone 78** » 11 years ago

If I had to guess, after reading the UMass article about whether they should stay in the A10 for BB, or go to the ex-BE, I'm going to say they stay put. Either by choice, or if Tulsa gets the nod ahead of them.

Just a gut feeling. Would be at least a minor plus for the A10 if they stay.

rhodylaw · Unread post by **rhodylaw** » 11 years ago

Rambone - UMass staying would be a huge plus for the A10 and for rhody. I hope they do stay.

This new BE football conference makes no sense for non-football sports. I really think it would be best to make a football only conference and let the programs go to other conferences for other sports. The mistake UConn made wad endorsing Tulane for anything other than football. If those schools had been added as football only, and then you added Temple and Memphis as full members the BE would have lived on with UConn.

rambone 78 · Unread post by **rambone 78** » 11 years ago

rl, that conference is an utter abortion. They will have big travel expenses, not many real rivalries, and not a whole lot of TV revenue to sustain it.

Just a whole bunch of mismatched programs, all in the same boat. UMass wants to go big time football, but if they join that mess, they'll be out of it sooner rather than later, and a lot poorer for it.

There's nothing big time about it.

reef · Unread post by **reef** » 11 years ago

I want UMASS to stay, I like the rivalry with them

seanmc94 · Unread post by **seanmc94** » 11 years ago

Get down off the cross, Rod.
Somebody else needs the wood.

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 11 years ago

Truth hurts, Sean?

seanmc94 · Unread post by **seanmc94** » 11 years ago

The "truth" that you like to throw out shots at PC and the BE and then play the martyr or victim when people disagree with your point of view? Yep, it hurts.

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 11 years ago

Oh. So, PC fans aren't jumping for joy over UConn's plight, or diminishing their history?
I must've read the wrong PC board. Sorry.

seanmc94 · Unread post by **seanmc94** » 11 years ago

My point is, don't act all hurt and shocked when people disagree with you. You fire off a shot, then predict that we will respond with the "PC double team". You bring it on yourself, so drop the victim act.

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 11 years ago

Can't take a joke, Sean?
I was married for 12 years. I got used to being disagreed with.
Don't recall acting "hurt" about whatever is written here.
Whatever.