Packline explained

[hrstrat57]

If you’re interested in understanding Archie Miller and current URI hoops here’s a good piece on the packline defense. Since Rhode Island MBB will succeed or fail based on how well this defense is played I deemed it worthy of a dedicated thread.

I’ll be interested in the comments of KB forum members who take the time to view. Comments on how we’ve done executing the defense and thoughts on the packline in general especially.

Enjoy, and you’re welcome.

[section(105)]

I posted in the GW thread. Additional thoughts. When Archie talks about not getting back on defense, I guess that means that our defenders are late to set up to 1) pressure the ball and 2) slow to get into the pack and in stance to defend off ball. Lazy players need NOT apply.

[hrstrat57]

https://www.basketballforcoaches.com/pack-line-defense/

An even deeper dive into packline, history included.

Good site for digging deep into hoops coaching.

[Jdrums#3]

57 & 105, Looks like some excellent info. I will try to give it a go over but have to admit that I don’t have the mental focus I had in my younger, healthy years.

I have to add, one of the great things about this place are the posters who put in extra effort to provide deeper info, program intel, video’s, game threads, contests, etc. Much appreciated.

[hrstrat57]

57 & 105, Looks like some excellent info. I will try to give it a go over but have to admit that I don’t have the mental focus I had in my younger, healthy years.

I have to add, one of the great things about this place are the posters who put in extra effort to provide deeper info, program intel, video’s, game threads, contests, etc. Much appreciated.

YW. Miller gets a lot of criticism on the forums a few of our historically more negative members are already talking hotseat.

I think it’s important to understand what the guy is trying to implement before going all negative.

I’ve got some strong opinions on the packline but I’ll hold and hope others will respond with their thoughts before chiming in further. One thing should be crystal clear it requires the entire squad to buy in to succeed.

The packline has produced a recent national champion. Cox high post offense concept produced double digit national titles but failed here.

Looking forward to a good discussion!

Go Rhody!

[SGreenwell]

My thinking on the defense - the packline probably isn't the problem. We probably just have a group of bad defensive players. I can't speak for anyone on the staff, but I imagine the thinking was, "We know these incoming recruits can score, and maybe we can coach them up on the defensive end, whereas we can't really do much with the offense of the guys on the 2022-23 roster." However, sometimes players just are what they are, and you can't work bad habits or tendencies out of them. Also given how badly 2022-23 went, I think the staff was probably still in the "let's take anyone with a pulse and some basketball skills" and less worried about how the pieces fit together.

So, heading into 2024-25, I bet Miller will be looking more for defense-oriented players if he can get them. Since our record is going to be better heading into this off-season, and we're further removed from the mess of the end of '22 and '23, we should be able to attract better recruits. I always have a "wait and see" attitude when it comes to recruits, but Farrell and Hammond both have better pedigrees than the two previous recruiting classes.

[Billyboy78]

Yeah, regarding 'bad defensive players', I still think that effort is by far the most important thing with playing defense. Yes, there are some physical attributes that can make someone a very good defensive player, such as how quick he moves his feet, how quick are his hands, physical strength. And understanding the defensive strategy is another part of it. For most players, playing defense isn't fun. It's a lot of hard work that requires a lot of effort. You have to really WANT to play good defense. So, in my opinion, effort is still by far the most important thing in making someone a good defensive player, in addition to physical attributes and understanding.

[reef]

If you’re interested in understanding Archie Miller and current URI hoops here’s a good piece on the packline defense. Since Rhode Island MBB will succeed or fail based on how well this defense is played I deemed it worthy of a dedicated thread.

I’ll be interested in the comments of KB forum members who take the time to view. Comments on how we’ve done executing the defense and thoughts on the packline in general especially.

Enjoy, and you’re welcome.

Really good video , I hope we can get defenders in here who can execute it .
Sounds like Arch is married to it so I hope it starts working better

[KeaneyBluBallz]

hard work beats talent

[BruceW]

Interesting topic and certainly very timely as well. Basketball players can always grab a ball and practice shooting. From all angles too. But without the ball it’s hard to practice defense. What it takes is discipline. Those that have it will succeed.

[reef]

Interesting topic and certainly very timely as well. Basketball players can always grab a ball and practice shooting. From all angles too. But without the ball it’s hard to practice defense. What it takes is discipline. Those that have it will succeed.

Great point , we need smart IQ players hopefully we can start to execute better !

[McRam]

Another factor is what high school or prep school experience did they have. A New York City kid, will likely be street smart and has played against top tier competition. Likely , players like Fou, and Stuart are behind the tougher players that learned real basketball at an earlier age.

[Blue Man]

Another factor is what high school or prep school experience did they have. A New York City kid, will likely be street smart and has played against top tier competition. Likely , players like Fou, and Stuart are behind the tougher players that learned real basketball at an earlier age.

Definitely accurate take - but Fou's problem isn't his understanding of concepts - it's trying to be Giannis and doing really inexplicably dumb things at inopportune times lol.

[hrstrat57]

Nobody has any further comments on the packline and/or Rhody MBB execution of it so far?

Kinda disappointed…

Go Rhody!

[reef]

Xavier is playing right now and I’m going to zero in on the PACKLINE

[Jdrums#3]

If you’re interested in understanding Archie Miller and current URI hoops here’s a good piece on the packline defense. Since Rhode Island MBB will succeed or fail based on how well this defense is played I deemed it worthy of a dedicated thread.

I’ll be interested in the comments of KB forum members who take the time to view. Comments on how we’ve done executing the defense and thoughts on the packline in general especially.

Enjoy, and you’re welcome.

57, I finally watched the vid. Good explanation of the basics of the pack line D.

The weaknesses mentioned were notable to me: vulnerability to kick-out 3’s; off ball defenders not rotating, rotating too slow or too slow to react to prevent penetration or close out on shooters; vulnerability to giving up baseline drives.

I could see where this Rhody team could have problems playing this D well due to inconsistent effort, questionable quickness and lack of focus.

I could see where this defense could be played very effectively by a team with length, quick feet and quick recognition/reaction.

Also, I could see a player like Ben Hammond (very quick, high basketball IQ, high motor) excelling in this D eventually. Likely Farrell, too, from what I’ve watched of him so far.

I am going to watch the vid a few more times to see what I missed on the first go round.

Good stuff

[section(105)]

Seems like lots of potential weaknesses/vulnerabilities, seems like the only goal of it is stops the dribble drive penetration via forcing the ball into the pack/paint. Give me a belly-to belly lock down ball-U- man defense.

[reef]

Yeah sometimes when you are watching you sometimes forget about the packline , if you are looking for it then you can notice it
I like DH man to man D the best

[Jdrums#3]

Seems like lots of potential weaknesses/vulnerabilities, seems like the only goal of it is stops the dribble drive penetration via forcing the ball into the pack/paint. Give me a belly-to belly lock down ball-U- man defense.

105, I can see where it can be a very frustrating D to play against - especially if the team playing it is disciplined in the basics and play it with consistent high effort. Also when the off the ball defenders make good decisions on when to commit to help versus leaving their guy open - especially if their player is a good 3 pt shooter.

But with the increase in 3 pt shooting, if off ball defenders don’t close out on 3 pt shooters quickly or are too slow to react to a kick out pass, or are caught watching the paint dry (not paying close attention / not focused) the D can really get lit up from 3.

I can see where it can be tougher to play than a straight up man to man because of the heavy reliance on off the ball help and doing it correctly so that the D doesn’t break down.

Learning/understanding how and when to help seems to be key. That appears to be the most difficult aspect to me so far from watching the first video.

[section(105)]

So, maybe it does take time to learn, as others have offered, so maybe packline is not workable defense in the portal era? Love the talk here, thx

[Jdrums#3]

So, maybe it does take time to learn, as others have offered, so maybe packline is not workable defense in the portal era? Love the talk here, thx

The more I learn about it, the more I like it. I can envision how it can frustrate penetration and cause a lot of contested 3’s when guys are reacting and hustling to close out. The five defenders on the floor really need to be connected as opposed to primarily just focusing on your own guy in a straight up man to man, however.

It appears to be more intricate to me looking back at my playing days where I played on teams that mostly played straight up man. Intricate to me equals more time to learn - which could be a problem with regular turnover in the portal era to answer your question.

But if you can keep a core of players together who can get it down and play it effectively then that could be a big advantage, I believe, because there aren’t many offenses that go up against it since so few teams play the pack line
D.

On a separate note, I think the vid touched on defending the pick and role/ pick and pop also. I will have to go back and check if it does and watch how it does.

It definitely is an interesting discussion, 105, like you alluded to above.

ETA: There is a second video by the same person that evidently touches on defending screens, etc. It goes more in-depth on the pack line D.

[Jdrums#3]

Okay. So I started watching the second vid which gets into defending ball screens. It doesn’t look easy.

If bigs are hard hedging the ball then they better really hustle to get back and cover their guy or pray the off ball defenders are paying attention and communicating to help.

The narrator noted that it helps if you have athletic bigs.

I’ve never coached so, I have a hard time trying to gauge how fast young bigs can put hard hedging and recovering into practice and do it well so as to not place place extra pressure on the other defenders.

I will need to watch this second vid more than a few times.

ETA: the narrator notes that on ball screens that communication and rotations are very important. That rotations need to be practiced daily. And that hard hedging ball screens is vulnerable to slips by the opposing big for layups so high basketball IQ bigs work better.

Narrator also added that if you have slow, less athletic bigs you can flat hedge ball screens ( which is less aggressive) versus hard hedge. Again though, the other defenders off the ball need to have their rotations down and be communicating.

The narrator also touches on pack line post D. Mentions either defending the post straight up one on one (less complicated) or doubling the post but rotations are important if doubling or the D is vulnerable to open 3’s on the opposite side.

Good tutorial.

[Jdrums#3]

Bumped for RhodyKyle and other interested posters.

[section(105)]

For me requires to much thinking and reacting rather than straight up belly to belly tough aggressive ball-u- man defense.

[reef]

For me requires to much thinking and reacting rather than straight up belly to belly tough aggressive ball-u- man defense.

That’s what I prefer ball -u -man defense Hurley style !

[NYGFan_Section208]

For me requires to much thinking and reacting rather than straight up belly to belly tough aggressive ball-u- man defense.

I'm with you...this casual fan is not about to watch multiple videos and read multiple break downs of a defensive philosophy...
I don't even really like defense to begin with, but at least if they're playing man, for the most part, you can tell who's good at it and who isn't/who's hustling and who isn't, as opposed to try to guess what area dude was supposed to shade at, but not cover, depending on which side of his a the guy with the ball scratches...

If the players aren't doing it right, it's probably because they don't understand it, or they just refuse to do it. If you can't explain it to a 10 year old, you probably don't understand it. I don't think anyone really understands it and it's just a bunch of blah blah fake defense-speak that no one can argue with because no one knows (or truly cares enough to find out). Not that I'm getting cynical...

[hrstrat57]

Hokies destroying uVA packline tonight. Clinic.

Edit: added game summary

https://www.streakingthelawn.com/2024/2 ... c-mckneely

[reef]

Hokies destroying uVA packline tonight. Clinic.

Love it ! Make that packline defense pay !