RI State Funding and URI Facilities

[Blue Man]

The second a donor ponies up the $3-4M per year a men’s hockey program costs, and the matching title IX required team we would have a hockey program.

If this was a priority for Thorr, it would have happened. The truth is that this would be a threat to football whose cost is doubled for Title IX matching.

You are dumb and misinformed. You are not worth my time to explain why, you are worth enough of my time to tell you you are dumb and misinformed.

[CamsRams]

[PeterRamTime]

D1 Hockey is completely irrelevant

It's behind
Football FBS and FCS
Men's and Women's basketball
Baseball and Softball

It would be cool to have a varsity team, but it's not worth adding if we are strapped for cash.

I also think Baseball is worse than hockey if that makes anyone feel better.

For the most part Athletics are more marketing tools than profit centers.

D1 hockey in the northeast is probably 2nd to only Basketball in relevant sports

I dont know if I totally believe that

[rhodyblue12]

What else? Football? How many football programs in the Northeast are in the black? BC and ....
Hockey would draw and we could be relevant very, very quickly with the right hire as HC.

[bigappleram]

Football trumps Hockey even in the northeast.
PC has a nationally recognized program and draws what 2-3k in the densest city in the state.
We draw 5-6k to Kingston for football. And we have been historically awful until recently.

[RF1]

This thread was created to highlight the deplorable conditions of athletic facilities due to URI not having the money to maintain or upgrade them. There is also the not mentioned here issue of how URI does not really adequately fund the operations of most of the sports it currently sponsors. How can anyone in their right mind then advocate adding new fairly expensive varsity programs given this money situation?

[section(105)]

What else? Football? How many football programs in the Northeast are in the black? BC and ....
Hockey would draw and we could be relevant very, very quickly with the right hire as HC.

Gotta ask, draw who? Hockey fans south of Warwick? Maybe. Does “draw” involve knocking out the north wall and making Boss a complete bowl? I’ve heard here the original design of Boss was to allow for that. I go to PC hockey 5-7 games a season, and sometimes empty seats in Schneider even against upper HE teams. I have doubts D1 hockey would draw enough to make the move up.

[Rhody72]

This thread was created to highlight the deplorable conditions of athletic facilities due to URI not having the money to maintain or upgrade them. There is also the not mentioned here issue of how URI does not really adequately fund the operations of most of the sports it currently sponsors. How can anyone in their right mind then advocate adding new fairly expensive varsity programs given this money situation?

The tie here is that URI would have more support from Northern RI if we had a D1 hockey program. This would get URI more support for improved athletic facilities from the State. Going way back, Mackal's financial gift to URI was for a hockey facility. After many years, URI asked the family if they could use the money for its current purpose. There are far more high quality hockey players coming out of RI than basketball or football players. School districts are actually adding hockey programs.

[section(105)]

Ice hockey is a niche, specialized market draw by folks who grew up with it, appealing to larger audiences for South County, doubt it.

[hrstrat57]

I believe for ECAC or Atlantic Hockey membership the current Boss configuration is sufficient.

IMO as the elite regional opponents/ natural rivalries develop (Providence, Brown, UConn, uMass, Yale, Quinnipiac and others) could necessitate creating the complete bowl. The facility was built to be expanded either adding the additional north stands and/or a additional sheet of ice.

I often wonder how many of the negative folks who post thumbs down on URI varsity hockey have been in the building.

It’s easy to get to and HS hockey is played there every weekend along with URI hockey. It’s good, cheap fun.

[Rhody72]

Ice hockey is a niche, specialized market draw by folks who grew up with it, appealing to larger audiences for South County, doubt it.

South County is an area not a real County, so here is a list of Southern RI High Schools that have their own team or compete on a Co-op team in the RIIL.
Boys: EG, Prout, NK. Co-Op-SK, Westerly,Narr, Chariho, WW, EWG.
Girls: Co-op-Narr, SK, Chariho, EG.

Just about every high school in Northern & Central RI has teams.

The personal expense to play hockey is significant.

[Brian Forster]

Here is a parable based on this thread that aptly describes the chance of URI getting hockey:

There is as much interest in paying for hockey from the donors as there is in people from Northern RI to go to the Mayors cup.

[Brian Forster]

Just about every high school in Northern & Central RI has teams.

Cranston East ,the Providence schools all have significant hockey track records and could contribute players from the "North"
CCRI has a hockey legacy and could be a feeder system for Rhody.

(BTW-according to the RIIL web site,almost 40 % that have hockey are South of providence). maybe Vets in the South could help?
Including Aquidneck Island. Its about a 5 minute drive to South County. about 45 to Providence.

[rhodyblue12]

All good points. My comment (though looking back, not explained well) was more along the lines of "in general, hockey would have a better chance of breaking even financially than football in the Northeast". Less scholarships, lower number of coach salaries, an arena that can be additionally purposed to create income, etc. And I believe we could have a top D1 Program quickly due to our location.

[hrstrat57]

All good points. My comment (though looking back, not explained well) was more along the lines of "in general, hockey would have a better chance of breaking even financially than football in the Northeast". Less scholarships, lower number of coach salaries, an arena that can be additionally purposed to create income, etc. And I believe we could have a top D1 Program quickly due to our location.

Quinnipiac, uMass and others are proof positive. The sad part is we were there in the mid 2000’s. Augustine’s club was big, fast and strong and as always well coached. Hockey East ready. Level would have to rise back up based on what I saw last couple years. One wonders how long Augustine continues to coach.

[Blue Man]

All good points. My comment (though looking back, not explained well) was more along the lines of "in general, hockey would have a better chance of breaking even financially than football in the Northeast". Less scholarships, lower number of coach salaries, an arena that can be additionally purposed to create income, etc. And I believe we could have a top D1 Program quickly due to our location.

Quinnipiac, uMass and others are proof positive. The sad part is we were there in the mid 2000’s. Augustine’s club was big, fast and strong and as always well coached. Hockey East ready. Level would have to rise back up based on what I saw last couple years. One wonders how long Augustine continues to coach.

I will preface this by saying that I'm a hockey guy, my ability to play hockey in high school was because Boss Arena was built, and I'd love to see URI have a hockey program.

That said, what are those programs proof positive of? The best data I could find as that all 3 broke even against their expenses.

UML, who's top 15 in the country in attendance, in one of the most hockey-rich corridors in the country if not the world, got 4500 people in the building on average this year. 75% capacity.

UMass was 17 in attendance, 4400, 52%.

Quinnipiac nearly sold out at 96%, but 2900 average.

So these "top of their game" programs are breaking even at best - what exactly is it telling us?

This isn't some magic bullet, and while I'm a hockey guy - it's the 4th of the 4 major sports for a reason. It's niche, and even in this region where it's incredibly popular - it's still niche.

[PeterRamTime]

All good points. My comment (though looking back, not explained well) was more along the lines of "in general, hockey would have a better chance of breaking even financially than football in the Northeast". Less scholarships, lower number of coach salaries, an arena that can be additionally purposed to create income, etc. And I believe we could have a top D1 Program quickly due to our location.

Quinnipiac, uMass and others are proof positive. The sad part is we were there in the mid 2000’s. Augustine’s club was big, fast and strong and as always well coached. Hockey East ready. Level would have to rise back up based on what I saw last couple years. One wonders how long Augustine continues to coach.

I will preface this by saying that I'm a hockey guy, my ability to play hockey in high school was because Boss Arena was built, and I'd love to see URI have a hockey program.

That said, what are those programs proof positive of? The best data I could find as that all 3 broke even against their expenses.

UML, who's top 15 in the country in attendance, in one of the most hockey-rich corridors in the country if not the world, got 4500 people in the building on average this year. 75% capacity.

UMass was 17 in attendance, 4400, 52%.

Quinnipiac nearly sold out at 96%, but 2900 average.

So these "top of their game" programs are breaking even at best - what exactly is it telling us?

This isn't some magic bullet, and while I'm a hockey guy - it's the 4th of the 4 major sports for a reason. It's niche, and even in this region where it's incredibly popular - it's still niche.

Perpetually it would also be pretty pathetic if we joined Vermont and Alaska as the only states whose flagship university doesn't have football.

[RF1]

Just about every high school in Northern & Central RI has teams.

Cranston East ,the Providence schools all have significant hockey track records and could contribute players from the "North"
CCRI has a hockey legacy and could be a feeder system for Rhody.

(BTW-according to the RIIL web site,almost 40 % that have hockey are South of providence). maybe Vets in the South could help?
Including Aquidneck Island. Its about a 5 minute drive to South County. about 45 to Providence.

Student participation and the number of boys high school hockey programs has actually been on the decline in RI in recent years, especially in the more urban communities. The public high school for Woonsocket, once a city hockey hotbed, no longer even fields a team. Former high school power Cranston East doesn't have a team these days. Pawtucket's Tolman and Shea no longer compete and the city several years ago sold its municipal rink. No public schools in Providence have teams. Many other RI public high schools no longer have their OWN team as they now compete as part of a co-op team representing multiple schools. There are today co-op teams for Narragansett - Chariho, Rogers - Middletown - Tiverton, St Raphael - PCD, South Kingstown - Westerly, and West Warwick - Exeter WG. Per the 2022-23 RIIL boys hockey standings, there were just 24 teams that competed for the full season with two 12 team divisions. Five of the top teams in D1 were private schools with another private school in D2. There are 105 high schools in RI per a source I found. 74 of these are public and include charter schools with the remaining 31 being private high schools. 51 of these high schools sponsor their own boys basketball teams in the RIIL.



RIIL Boys Hockey 2022-23 Standings
https://www.riil.org/page/3147

[section(105)]

Niche activity, gear costs , especially goalie gear costs, ice t8me costs etc, all drag n school budgets and family ability to have kid participation. Not exactly a news flash here.

[NYGFan_Section208]

Niche activity, gear costs , especially goalie gear costs, ice t8me costs etc, all drag n school budgets and family ability to have kid participation. Not exactly a news flash here.

Hockey... fun to watch, too expensive for most to play...

[PeterRamTime]

Quinnipiac, uMass and others are proof positive. The sad part is we were there in the mid 2000’s. Augustine’s club was big, fast and strong and as always well coached. Hockey East ready. Level would have to rise back up based on what I saw last couple years. One wonders how long Augustine continues to coach.

I will preface this by saying that I'm a hockey guy, my ability to play hockey in high school was because Boss Arena was built, and I'd love to see URI have a hockey program.

That said, what are those programs proof positive of? The best data I could find as that all 3 broke even against their expenses.

UML, who's top 15 in the country in attendance, in one of the most hockey-rich corridors in the country if not the world, got 4500 people in the building on average this year. 75% capacity.

UMass was 17 in attendance, 4400, 52%.

Quinnipiac nearly sold out at 96%, but 2900 average.

So these "top of their game" programs are breaking even at best - what exactly is it telling us?

This isn't some magic bullet, and while I'm a hockey guy - it's the 4th of the 4 major sports for a reason. It's niche, and even in this region where it's incredibly popular - it's still niche.

Perpetually it would also be pretty pathetic if we joined Vermont and Alaska as the only states whose flagship university doesn't have football.

Perceptually***

[Brian Forster]

RF1-I was being facetious.
Hockey is fighting for its life in RI.
And people want URI to save it?
Just the fact nobody brings up how the school would need a womens team also says how much thought has gone into it.

[rhodyblue12]

RF1-I was being facetious.
Hockey is fighting for its life in RI.
And people want URI to save it?
Just the fact nobody brings up how the school would need a womens team also says how much thought has gone into it.

This is a big jump from the topic of "is it easier for hockey or football to break even financially at schools in the Northeast US" to your "people want URI to save hockey in RI".
Not what people were saying at all.

[Brian Forster]

OK Rhody Blue-for the record,I am for hockey.also,wrestling,lacrosse,boxing & weight lifting.
Since its you brought up the subject,what's your financial plan as to where would you get the $$ from for a womens team (just to start)?

That's a fair question.

[hrstrat57]

Absolutely cannot promote URI men’s hockey to varsity without promoting the women’s club.

Serious question…

How are the current club hockey teams teams funded? Who pays Augustine and staff salary? Who pays for travel?

[section(105)]

For hockey, against hockey………it an’t gonna happen beyond its current status.

[Rhody72]

OK Rhody Blue-for the record,I am for hockey.also,wrestling,lacrosse,boxing & weight lifting.
Since its you brought up the subject,what's your financial plan as to where would you get the $$ from for a womens team (just to start)?

That's a fair question.

If you are just starting a Title IX compliant athletic program at URI, you would absolutely list M&W hockey as sports to include. I will grant you that Women Athletics is a money loser, but you have little choice.

FCS Football is a massive money loser but has a strong external constituency so it is going nowhere. It has ~50 scholarships and supports an additional ~50 scholarships for Title IX compliance.

Men's hockey at top New England schools is a money maker. It could be at URI. Plus, it would raise URI's popularity in Northern RI.

[section(105)]

I see no path for URI memes/women’s ice hockey to be a money maker.

[rhodyblue12]

I never said hockey would be a big money maker - man it is tough to have a logical conversation these days.
I also was not talking SPECIFICALLY about URI, but in general.

Since my premise was that it is likely easier in the Northeast US for a hockey program to be financially self-sustaining, the logical thing is to cut football at Northeast Universities where it loses money.
As 72 says (a rare time where I agree with him) - if you cut football, you not only cut a money loser, you are also now eliminating a large number of men's scholarships.
This not only means you do not need to fund a woman's hockey team, but you can probably cut several other women's teams to even up the scholarships.

Mind you, this is purely a financial exercise.

[jcru]

Yeah, get lost with that.

We're not cutting football nor the women's scholarships needed to match it. Cutting football is a bad enough suggestion, cutting women's athletics in an era where they desperately need people to champion their cause, while they are literally being attacked, is an even worse suggestion.

One day, I believe URI will finally have men and women's d1 hockey programs, I might actually live to see it before I die, but it's not going to involve cutting or replacing other programs.

This football team is primed to finally deliver a run of some very good seasons and I for one cannot wait to see it.

[Brian Forster]

Rhody Blue-OK,you are right it doesn't have to be an argument.
Please clarify/qualify:
1. Football gives all the other sports $$$,are you sure a Men's hockey team could do the same??
2. Name 10 legit NE D1 hockey programs that have a men's team and no women's team??

[rhodyblue12]

BF,

1) I assume from this that you are saying that football programs in NE make a large amount of money for their school. I'm not sure that is correct in the Northeast US (basically, New England). My point was that most schools that have football in the NE generally lose money on that sport, and not just a little. Does the URI football turn enough profit to support the rest of the athletic department?
I never once said Hockey would make enough to fund other programs. What I said was that we could quickly create a high level D1 Hockey program that would pay for itself. That is a reachable goal if you have a good program.

2) This has no bearing on my argument. All Title IX says is that schools must "reward male and female athletes equally.". You need to have a distribution of scholarships that match the population distribution of the school. It does not say that if you have a men's hockey team, you must have a women's team. Otherwise, we'd have to have a women's football team. Name me ten schools that have that.

Someone else made a good pointy about the optics involved and I agree. Someone else said that certain boosters want football so it isn't going away at URI, again I agree,

In general, schools in NE would be better off financially if they had hockey and did not have football.

Sorry to everyone else, I definitely did not think my post would be that controversial.

[Rhody15]

I never said hockey would be a big money maker - man it is tough to have a logical conversation these days.
I also was not talking SPECIFICALLY about URI, but in general.

Since my premise was that it is likely easier in the Northeast US for a hockey program to be financially self-sustaining, the logical thing is to cut football at Northeast Universities where it loses money.
As 72 says (a rare time where I agree with him) - if you cut football, you not only cut a money loser, you are also now eliminating a large number of men's scholarships.
This not only means you do not need to fund a woman's hockey team, but you can probably cut several other women's teams to even up the scholarships.

Mind you, this is purely a financial exercise.

There is so much wrong here I don’t even know where to start.

[NYGFan_Section208]

I never said hockey would be a big money maker - man it is tough to have a logical conversation these days.
I also was not talking SPECIFICALLY about URI, but in general.

Since my premise was that it is likely easier in the Northeast US for a hockey program to be financially self-sustaining, the logical thing is to cut football at Northeast Universities where it loses money.
As 72 says (a rare time where I agree with him) - if you cut football, you not only cut a money loser, you are also now eliminating a large number of men's scholarships.
This not only means you do not need to fund a woman's hockey team, but you can probably cut several other women's teams to even up the scholarships.

Mind you, this is purely a financial exercise.

There is so much wrong here I don’t even know where to start.

That's a pretty good start

[rhodyblue12]

Remember the premise was purely a financial exercise.

If you had stocks that lost money every year for the past 20 years, would you keep them?
If your company had 20 projects and 10 of them were losing money, what would they do?

And don't twist this into something it is not. The cuts would be equal on both sides.
A University is a business.

[Rhody15]

Remember the premise was purely a financial exercise.

If you had stocks that lost money every year for the past 20 years, would you keep them?
If your company had 20 projects and 10 of them were losing money, what would they do?

And don't twist this into something it is not. The cuts would be equal on both sides.
A University is a business.

URI isn’t for profit.

URI isn’t a business.

[jcru]

It's a moot point, because the University would never do what you are suggesting. In order to understand how a state University is run and funded, requires an understanding of state politics. The University would never willingly give funding back to the state that has been ear marked for both football and those women's athletics, because it would be gone forever, and would not be available to simply divert to your favorite pet project instead. It would simply disappear, never to be seen again. It would simply lessen what the overall university is.

You don't subtract things from the state's only University, you add them. There is nothing in common here with a private university like B.U. Think UMass. Think UConn. Think UNH.

In short, dare I say it? We're not trying to save the state money here in a futile effort to give you, personally, what you want. We want them to up their contribution to this university, because it falls way short of what it should be, in comparison to our neighbors, and it's gone on way too long.

Now, if you want to have a discussion on how we should or could, pressure the state into starting brand new Men and Women's D1 hockey teams, without interfering with what we already have going on, I'm all ears. You could argue that this is not the right economy to bring up such things, but you could at least pose the question out there. It should probably come from local hockey families at the high school and lower levels and presented to the state as to why their children are not given an opportunity to earn scholarships at the state's only University for those sports, both men's and women's.

[Rhody72]

...
It should probably come from local hockey families at the high school and lower levels and presented to the state as to why their children are not given an opportunity to earn scholarships at the state's only University for those sports, both men's and women's.

So you are saying that money for Meade Stadium upgrades is coming from football families in RI wanting an opportunity for scholarships for their kids. REALLY!! It is coming from football boosters who have a football guy as AD.

[jcru]

Honestly, 72. How did you get that from what I wrote?

I said if you want to start a grass roots petition to the state to start Men and Women's div 1 hockey teams at the University, it should start with confronting the state that they do not currently provide athletic scholarships for men and women's hockey, which means they are depriving those families of an opportunity that they are entitled to. You like that? We throw that word entitled around like it's candy these days, they are actually entitled to the chance of their children being able to compete at their state university for their chosen sport like everyone else.

I'm trying to rubik's cube my head, and twist it like a pretzel, like you apparently did, to figure out how that has anything to do with the Meade stadium improvement project.

[rhodyblue12]

Last post, I promise. And I may take a few weeks off after this one ....

1) My assumption: Most football programs in the NE lose money on football
2) My opinion: URI, because of its proximity to New England prep schools, should be able to quickly build a competitive D1 program that could financially break even. Part of my reasoning included the fact that we already have the major cost covered (the arena). This was never pitched as my 'pet project'. Just making a statement to contribute to the thread. I'm not a hockey guy.
3) My solution to BF's inquiry: NE schools that continually lose money on football should consider cutting the sport. This is a general statement. If URI's football program makes enough money to 'fund all other sports' as BF says, then obviously do not cut it. If URI has several boosters that support football to the point that the sport does not lose money - again, do not cut football. I like going to the games.
4) jcru - some good points and I agree. However the state barely funds URI as it is (it used to be around only 8%). That level of support is not changing any time soon. But if you were to start a grass roots campaign for a new sport, you'd be better off making a pitch to add one that had a path to self sustainment, no? I also really appreciate you taking the time to give me some examples of public vs private schools as I always confused if UMass or BC was the public school (just joking, dude).

I think most folks here have preconceived notions that make them interpret posts a certain way, leading to misinterpretations that cause arguments. Others, like 72 do this on purpose in an effort to get people angry. It is sport for them. Sad, really.

[Brian Forster]

Rhody Blue-I asked for 10 legit D1 schools who have a mens team and no women's?
How about naming one ??

[jcru]

The state does not negotiate such things. And leading with a bribe of “if you get rid of a money loser we can replace it with a breaking-even substitute” isn’t going to work with them. I once thought like you do, and I was flat out wrong.

In the end it’s basically a form of envy politics, where hockey people hate the football people and think their best path to getting what they want is by replacing football. It’s faulty logic build on a house of cards.

I applaud the hockey community wanting to start these programs but it has to be organic and stand on it’s own two feet, not offering to tear something else already established down in an attempt to replace it.

And as for 72, he didn’t like what I had to say either, but instead of confronting any particular aspect directly, which would require too much work, he chose to deflect with nonsense. It’s a classic textbook move and it’s been going on since this board began

[Brian Forster]

I would suggest to all on the board to attend donor functions. They are a great bunch of people.
Most are either low cost or free (you have to pay for your own beer).
Gauge the donor's interest when hockey comes up.
To give you a head start,one of two things happen:
1. it doesn't come up
2. they aren't interested in paying for it.

[rhodyrudder]

... if you cut football, you not only cut a money loser, you are also now eliminating a large number of men's scholarships.
This not only means you do not need to fund a woman's hockey team, but you can probably cut several other women's teams to even up the scholarships.

You might not remember the trial, but this is precisely what Brown did in the early 90's, and it led to the clarification of the Title IX rules that every school has followed ever since...

URI is absolutely not in any way shape or form cutting football so they can cut 2 women's teams.

[NarraRamFan]

Wow, its embarrassing that the Board of Trustees of the school need a video to show the extent of degraded facilities. Shocking to (appear to) be so completely disengaged from the campus facilities.... or Thor is trying to completely embarrass them? I would imagine that a trustee would have been to a football game or two over the last five years?

[Rhody72]

The state does not negotiate such things. And leading with a bribe of “if you get rid of a money loser we can replace it with a breaking-even substitute” isn’t going to work with them. I once thought like you do, and I was flat out wrong.

The last I checked we have a Board of Trustees that advocate for URI and URI is no longer controlled by a State higher education Board of Governors. URI has far more control over how money is allocated, re-allocated and spent. What you are saying was true with the Board of Governors, but no more. Savings through reorganization stays with URI. It doesn't go to RIC, CCRI or go back to the State as it did in the distant past.

[OBRAM]

The State Budget has gone from $3 billion to $13 Billion in 20 years.
Double NH, which has 300k more people, and Double Nebraska
Per Capita is almost double for Massachusetts. That's what happens when you have Regressives running the state.

[PlayMikeMotenMore]

Rhody Blue-I asked for 10 legit D1 schools who have a mens team and no women's?
How about naming one ??

Michigan State
Michigan
Notre Dame
Arizona State
Western Michigan
Ferris State
Miami of Ohio
Bowling Green
UMASS
Air Force Academy

I'll be on my way now.

[KeaneyBluBallz]

Rhody Blue-I asked for 10 legit D1 schools who have a mens team and no women's?
How about naming one ??

Michigan State
Michigan
Notre Dame
Arizona State
Western Michigan
Ferris State
Miami of Ohio
Bowling Green
UMASS
Air Force Academy

I'll be on my way now.

Boom. Roasted.

[jcru]

Personally I’d rather have a women’s team as well as the men’s.