URI Membership in the A-10

RF1 · Unread post by **RF1** » 8 years ago

I have begun to increasingly question whether URI’s membership in the A-10 is really benefitting the school. If UMass were to depart finding full membership in a conference that accommodates its FBS football program, my concerns jump even more. The A-10 has been going in a direction not favorable to URI for some time. URI, a public state school, has had little in common with many of the new members added in the last two decades as most were private schools. The league has been moving south and westward in its focus further isolating Rhody. If UMass were to go and a new member added, it probably would not be anywhere near Kingston, RI. If this does happen, would the A-10 be the right place for Rhode Island athletics?

The greatest argument for membership in the A-10 is tied to men’s basketball. A-10 basketball has some very good programs and consistently places multiple teams in the NCAA Tournament. This however has not shown dividends for URI in the last 16 years despite facilities investment (most notably the 54 million dollar Ryan Center), coaching changes, and increased operational spending. The best URI has been able to do is get invited to multiple NIT Tournaments (6 in the last 16 seasons). The NIT can be a nice consolation prize on occasion but regular trips with no NCAA bids in or around them is not a desirable outcome. The NIT has very little monetary benefit and doesn’t appear to even excite Rhody fans anymore (see attendance for home NIT games in the last few appearances). If the main objective is to reach the NCAA Men’s Basketball Tournament, URI is failing miserably.

Being an A-10 member does have monetary benefits. There is a tv deal which nets members several hundred thousand dollars a year (all higher profile leagues tv payouts are however in the millions/school). Furthermore, because other conference teams are able to make the NCAA Tournament with regularity with some advancing each year, there are decent NCAA shares paid out to all members. Trying to compete in the A-10 is however much more costly than being in a lower profile regional league. Is the added cost offset by the revenues? Even outside of men’s basketball, Rhody struggles in other league sports. Rhode Island is usually competitive in the men’s sports of baseball and soccer but qualifying for the NCAA in those is even now rare. URI is for the most part particularly woeful in the A-10 women’s sports.

URI is pretty much an outlier in the A-10. The league rarely acts in a way beneficial to URI. It moved its headquarters further away and continues to add new members in other parts of the country. This has hurt the travel budget and time away from class for URI student athletes. Even when URI has tried to integrate itself more with the league, it has not worked. The recent rebuff of Providence as a site for the men’s tournament is just another sign that URI and New England in general are not a priority for the current A-10. The choice of Pittsburgh, home to Duquense, as the site for the tournament next year says all you need to know about Rhody’s place in the league.

URI has always faced financial struggles when it comes to athletics. The expenses for league members are listed below for your perusal. Rhode Island is generally middle of the pack in most areas yet the goal of reaching the NCAA is elusive for most all sports which points to a very poor return on investment. It is particularly troubling that even in men’s basketball, many A-10 programs spend tens of percent more for operations than URI. Several have also recently spent considerable capital monies (not in the numbers below) on infrastructure such as practice facilities. Is it reasonable to think URI can keep up with other schools? Is it then realistic to think URI hoops can continue to compete if it is consistently outspent?
URI joined a much different A-10 back in 1982 with a far different college athletics landscape at that time. The league has over the years added members far from Kingston with Rhody having little in common with many of them. Membership was for the first 20 years a decent fit for Rhody and the school benefitted. That has not necessarily been the case in the last 10-15 years. URI has had to spend more to compete in the league but success has mostly been elusive for the majority of its programs.

It is probably very unlikely to think that URI will ever be able to spend near the top of the league and it may be unrealistic to just keep pace with current spending increases. The overall management of the athletic department at URI has never been particularly strong. The school does not make athletics a big priority and it doesn’t seem like it will ever have the will for athletic success. With that environment in mind, is long term membership in the highly competitive A-10 a good fit for the school?

I have become increasingly more pessimistic in respect to the athletic programs at URI with each passing year. The football program seems to be a hopeless situation that no one seems to want to do anything about. The marquis men’s basketball program can’t seem to make it over the hump despite several moves. Success in the A-10 for most all sports programs in recent years is not common and things do not look to be getting any easier in the future.

A few years ago, the Providence Journal did a series of articles on the future of athletics at URI with a lot of input from former President Carothers. He basically saw a scenario with URI competing in a lower level regional athletic conference with peer institutions. Joining some variation of the current America East is what he most likely envisioned. I, along with most longtime URI supporters here, was very much against this prospect back then. I however am beginning to rethink things. It seems that URI just can’t get it done in this league and does not have the funding or will to do so. The A-10 also doesn’t really seem to have much concern for the interests of URI. That becomes more clear with each passing year and I don’t know if it is realistic to think that will soon change.

I am sorry to be negative but the future of athletics at URI does not seem to be very bright as based on the recent history. Unless there are big changes in Kingston, Rhody’s future might better be served in another league where its philosophy toward athletics is shared.

A-10 Member Athletic Expenses (Reporting Year: 7/1/2014 - 6/30/2015)

Grand Total Expenses
Massachusetts $33,121,307
Fordham $31,963,111
Virginia Commonwealth $29,770,145
George Washington $29,374,668
Richmond $26,951,928
Dayton $24,177,246
Rhode Island $24,028,080
George Mason $21,254,390
Saint Joseph's $19,845,795
Duquesne $17,899,626
Saint Louis $17,402,473
La Salle $14,325,653
Davidson $13,348,176
Saint Bonaventure $9,774,664

Athletically Related Student Aid (i.e., athletic scholarships)
Fordham $13,061,354
George Washington $11,002,402
Richmond $9,671,851
Massachusetts $9,375,971
Rhode Island $8,625,576
Duquesne $7,053,970
Saint Joseph's $6,698,158
La Salle $5,955,262
Saint Louis $5,129,854
George Mason $5,120,669
Dayton $4,997,352
Virginia Commonwealth $4,035,244
Saint Bonaventure $3,149,365
Davidson $3,072,446

Recruiting Expenses
Massachusetts $710,295
Dayton $521,746
Davidson $514,181
Duquesne $508,430
Fordham $503,568
Richmond $459,366
Rhode Island $418,756
Virginia Commonwealth $387,566
George Mason $383,268
George Washington $381,766
La Salle $313,353
Saint Louis $247,016
Saint Joseph's $244,665
Saint Bonaventure $187,540

Men's Basketball Expenses
Virginia Commonwealth $5,584,380
Fordham $5,226,030
Richmond $4,928,859
Dayton $4,757,973
Saint Louis $4,185,914
George Mason $4,081,042
Saint Joseph's $3,871,346
Massachusetts $3,822,521
Rhode Island $3,652,260
Duquesne $3,518,812
La Salle $3,246,080
George Washington $3,130,281
Saint Bonaventure $2,690,887
Davidson $2,572,475

Football Expenses
Massachusetts $7,027,529
Fordham $6,515,087
Richmond $6,463,260
Rhode Island $4,273,324
Duquesne $2,840,309
Davidson $1,480,393
Dayton $1,289,024
George Mason N/A
George Washington N/A
La Salle N/A
Saint Bonaventure N/A
Saint Joseph's N/A
Saint Louis N/A
Virginia Commonwealth N/A

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 8 years ago

sf2010 · Unread post by **sf2010** » 8 years ago

Interesting take, RF1.

Personally, the only athletics program at URI that I am really invested in is men's basketball. As an alum, of course I would like to see success in all of our programs, but I really don't care about our success in most other sports. We certainly are not near the top in the A10 in terms of overall athletics, and that does not cause me to lose sleep. For me, conference affiliation is most important for our men's basketball program, and the A10 is far and away the best option for us. It is a nationally relevant conference that sends multiple teams to the NCAAs every year, and if we were to change conferences, it damn sure wouldn't be "trading up."

Regarding the A10 and their perceived poor treatment of URI, I do not have the same strong feelings about them as you do. Conference realignment has certainly moved the geographic center of the A10 away from the Northeast, and so it makes sense to me that the conference HQ should also move. Also, does the physical location of the HQ have anything at all to do with URI? Seems to me that a thing like that makes no difference. Regarding the choice of where to hold the conference championship - can any of us really complain about them not choosing Providence given that it is only close (ish) for URI, UMass, and Fordham, especially given our struggles at filling up our own building this year? Seems like a smart move for the conference to not pick Providence, even if it would have been something that URI die-hards would appreciate.

TL;DR - The A10 is the best basketball option for URI, none of the other sports matter as much, it's not the fault of the A10 that we haven't been as competitive as we'd like in basketball, don't move please.

RF1 · Unread post by **RF1** » 8 years ago

I agree that basketball is the most important sport at URI and that is why it joined the A-10. The program leveraged its membership in the league fairly well in the first two decades getting five NCAA bids (all but one an at large) and advancing in the tournament in three appearances. URI however has not been able to take advantage of league membership for the last sixteen years (and looking like 17). This failure has happened despite the 54 million dollar Ryan Center being opened and spending being greatly increased. Even being in the A-10, Rhody's only avenue to getting to the NCAA has become winning the A-10 Tournament for the automatic bid. Since the league is highly competitive, this has not happened. Furthermore, many schools are spending large sums on auxiliary practice facilities. Some A-10 members such as VCU spend several million more just on men's basketball operating expenses. As most Rhody boosters will acknowledge, these things won't be happening at URI.

If the priority is men's basketball and the goal is to make the NCAA Tournament, would it not be an easier path in a lesser league? Winning the A-10 Tournament has become the only path to the NCAA for URI. Wouldn't it be easier route in an America East like league?

sf2010 · Unread post by **sf2010** » 8 years ago

If we were able to maintain our current level of talent and recruiting, yes, it would be much easier to win America East or the Patriot League. But we would not be able to recruit the level of player that we currently are. I don't keep up with URI football nearly as much as I do with URI basketball, but think of the effect it had on recruiting when URI decided briefly to drop out of the CAA. The impact would be just as profound for basketball

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 8 years ago

TP, I was going to read the rest of this thread, but
your post made me have to rush to the bathroom
to puke.

HobbyBurley · Unread post by **HobbyBurley** » 8 years ago

"Winning the A-10 Tournament has become the only path to the NCAA for URI"

Despite recent results, this just isn't true.

I also don't think the correlation between spending and winning is as direct as you think. Two examples on your list: Fordham (2nd in spending), and Davidson (2nd to last). According to your list, we are right there with Dayton as well.

Overall your tone is very negative and I don't think things are nearly as bad as they come across in your post.

RF1 · Unread post by **RF1** » 8 years ago

HobbyBurley wrote:"Winning the A-10 Tournament has become the only path to the NCAA for URI"

Despite recent results, this just isn't true.

I also don't think the correlation between spending and winning is as direct as you think. Two examples on your list: Fordham (2nd in spending), and Davidson (2nd to last). According to your list, we are right there with Dayton as well.

Overall your tone is very negative and I don't think things are nearly as bad as they come across in your post.

The realization that this is probably going to be another season with no NCAA has me in a pessimistic funk. It is not just men's hoop however as Rhody is not very good across the board in many sports. The football situation is especially depressing.

I will agree that money is not always the difference maker. You point out the futility of Fordham even though they spend quite a bit. You could also use St Bonventure on the other extreme which spends near the bottom. The little school in Olean (undergraduate enrollment of less than 1,800) has somehow made the NCAA Men's Tournament TWICE in the last 16 years.

Why is that URI cannot be like the blind squirrel that finds a nut on occassion (such as SBU above)? I am really beginning to think it is URI that prevents itself from succeeding. Support for athletics from the administration, students, alumni, and state is very poor. There does not seem to be the same degree of pride seen elsewhere. Excellence is not demanded. Mediocrity or even less reigns supreme and that seems quite fine with many. There is no will for success and it shows.

hrstrat57 · Unread post by **hrstrat57** » 8 years ago

We won't need that basketball practice facility in the America East or the Patriot league. Won't need the RC either build a parking garage there instead.

HobbyBurley · Unread post by **HobbyBurley** » 8 years ago

I think it's a bit of a shame the baseball program isn't better supported. Not really a surprise considering the venue they play at, but they are always around the top 3 in the A-10 (barring 2014). MLB draft picks in 2012, 2013, and 2014, not to mention 4 draft picks in 2009.

Football is obviously in a sad state especially compared to the amount of money that it generates for other programs.

Unread post by **SGreenwell** » 8 years ago

HobbyBurley wrote:"Winning the A-10 Tournament has become the only path to the NCAA for URI"

Despite recent results, this just isn't true.

I also don't think the correlation between spending and winning is as direct as you think. Two examples on your list: Fordham (2nd in spending), and Davidson (2nd to last). According to your list, we are right there with Dayton as well.

Overall your tone is very negative and I don't think things are nearly as bad as they come across in your post.

The spending lists also tend to be not completely accurate, depending on how schools wish to account for things, which obviously vary from school to school.

Also, RF1, even positing that URI would leave the A10 - which I simply don't think it in the cards for a slew of reasons - what conference do you propose them joining? The Big East is not happening. The AAC seemingly requires a D1 football team, which would probably be the conference closest in quality when it comes to basketball for the A10. The ACC would have no interest in URI. The other conferences are clear downgrades, and usually one-bid leagues. I realize the A10 has issues as a conference at times, but the other realistic options are not appealing to me.

RF1 · Unread post by **RF1** » 8 years ago

SGreenwell wrote:
HobbyBurley wrote:"Winning the A-10 Tournament has become the only path to the NCAA for URI"

Despite recent results, this just isn't true.

I also don't think the correlation between spending and winning is as direct as you think. Two examples on your list: Fordham (2nd in spending), and Davidson (2nd to last). According to your list, we are right there with Dayton as well.

Overall your tone is very negative and I don't think things are nearly as bad as they come across in your post.
The spending lists also tend to be not completely accurate, depending on how schools wish to account for things, which obviously vary from school to school.

Also, RF1, even positing that URI would leave the A10 - which I simply don't think it in the cards for a slew of reasons - what conference do you propose them joining? The Big East is not happening. The AAC seemingly requires a D1 football team, which would probably be the conference closest in quality when it comes to basketball for the A10. The ACC would have no interest in URI. The other conferences are clear downgrades, and usually one-bid leagues. I realize the A10 has issues as a conference at times, but the other realistic options are not appealing to me.

The new league would be a downgrade to a group of other schools that treat athletics similar to URI.

RhowdyRam02 · Unread post by **RhowdyRam02** » 8 years ago

My biggest concern with regards to the A10 is the fact that when UMass moves to an all sports conference Fordham will be our closest geographic rival. That's a massive issue, but I don't see what school the A10 could realistically add that would be a rival with the program we're trying to build. That said it's not enough of an issue for me to think Yankee Conference 2.0 with Maine, Vermont and New Hampshire is a good idea. Also, any thoughts from Muskrat Bobby C on athletics are invalid, that guy was a clown and it makes me sick there's a banner honoring him hanging from the Ryan Center.

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 8 years ago

Agree, RR02.
Carothers stuck us with Jerry D and CFL and his
insane extension.
I see no reason to run up the white flag and go to a lesser
league.
What purpose will that serve?

rjsuperfly66 · Unread post by **rjsuperfly66** » 8 years ago

Take budgets out of it, if I'm a URI fan, I want the conference to bring in the best teams possible to make the A10 the best conference possible. While the geographic base has moved because realignment has occured, who else could the A10 have brought in to maintain a primarily northeast/mid-atlantic flavor? Siena? Northeastern? Buffalo? The list is underwhelming. Bringing in a school like Davidson, VCU, Butler, George Mason, etc., while moving the geographic identity further south and west, was done to help solidify a better conference.

URI is not missing the tournament because of the conference. They have had teams good enough to make it. They just haven't been able to do their job when they've had to, to win the statement game, or clean up a big non-conference game or two. Losing games you should win, or could have won, has been the problem, and that can change at the snap of a finger.

Just my honest, uninformed two cents.

Unread post by **SGreenwell** » 8 years ago

RF1 wrote:
SGreenwell wrote:
HobbyBurley wrote:"Winning the A-10 Tournament has become the only path to the NCAA for URI"

Despite recent results, this just isn't true.

I also don't think the correlation between spending and winning is as direct as you think. Two examples on your list: Fordham (2nd in spending), and Davidson (2nd to last). According to your list, we are right there with Dayton as well.

Overall your tone is very negative and I don't think things are nearly as bad as they come across in your post.
The spending lists also tend to be not completely accurate, depending on how schools wish to account for things, which obviously vary from school to school.

Also, RF1, even positing that URI would leave the A10 - which I simply don't think it in the cards for a slew of reasons - what conference do you propose them joining? The Big East is not happening. The AAC seemingly requires a D1 football team, which would probably be the conference closest in quality when it comes to basketball for the A10. The ACC would have no interest in URI. The other conferences are clear downgrades, and usually one-bid leagues. I realize the A10 has issues as a conference at times, but the other realistic options are not appealing to me.

The new league would be a downgrade to a group of other schools that treat athletics similar to URI.

URI spends more than $1M a year on its basketball coach, and it has a 7,500+ seat on-campus arena. It hasn't made the NCAA tournament in the past decade, but it has made multiple NITs and been ranked, and last year they finished tied for second in the regular season. Men's basketball is also the only sport that has the potential to be a revenue booster for the athletic department, to be cruel for a moment, so it should be the focus of any discussion about conference. (Although, of course it helps if football can go from "horrible" to just simple average.) I think it's in a perfectly fine conference right now.

RF1 · Unread post by **RF1** » 8 years ago

My original post was to initiate a thought provoking general discussion and introspection about URI athletics and its membership in the A-10.

Rhode Island spends a large amount on its athletic programs. I think it is fair to say the return on investment is abysmal. There have been very few league championships and NCAA appearances in the last decade or so across the board in the sports that URI competes.

Why can a small school such as nearby Providence College do so well in athletics? They just announced a 37.5 million dollar facility yesterday and have been upgrading all their on campus athletics facilities in the last few years. They currently have the 14th ranked men's hoop program which is very likely headed to its 3rd straight NCAA. Its hockey team is ranked #1 and is the reigning national champion. It's men's soccer team has been nationally ranked and made multiple NCAA tournaments in recent years making it to the semifinals in one year. How is it that PC does so well in so many sports while URI struggles for excellence in all?

RF1 · Unread post by **RF1** » 8 years ago

SGreenwell wrote: URI spends more than $1M a year on its basketball coach, and it has a 7,500+ seat on-campus arena. It hasn't made the NCAA tournament in the past decade, but it has made multiple NITs and been ranked, and last year they finished tied for second in the regular season. Men's basketball is also the only sport that has the potential to be a revenue booster for the athletic department, to be cruel for a moment, so it should be the focus of any discussion about conference. (Although, of course it helps if football can go from "horrible" to just simple average.) I think it's in a perfectly fine conference right now.

For this very moment, I would agree the A-10 is probably the proper place for URI. If however there are more conference changes, continuing athletics operations spending increases and infrastructure investments at other league members, and URI continues to be an NCAA bridesmaid in men's basketball, I think one must start to wonder if the A-10 is still the right fit.

Unread post by **ATPTourFan** » 8 years ago

Yeah, no reason to be so pessimistic. Focusing on men's basketball, I think all would agree that this was the year had EC not gotten hurt.

So if we were 9-1 and possibly even ranked, or at least getting votes, and trending for a ~25-35 RPI, would this post even happened? I don't think so.

Until we are a perennial NCAA participant like a Dayton, we cannot afford to lose our best and most dynamic player. Full stop. We're just trying to get into the tournament. Doing so will be massively beneficial in so many ways. I can see why Dan, staff, and especially the players who give so much were depressed after game 1.

They all invested so much so that year 4 was THE Year we are comfortably positioned for an at-large. National and local media all agreed that was the case -- but teams like ours, still looking to complete the rebuild, cannot lose their best player.

Unread post by **ATPTourFan** » 8 years ago

RF1 wrote:Why can a small school such as nearby Providence College do so well in athletics? They just announced a 37.5 million dollar facility yesterday and have been upgrading all their on campus athletics facilities in the last few years. They currently have the 14th ranked men's hoop program which is very likely headed to its 3rd straight NCAA. Its hockey team is ranked #1 and is the reigning national champion. It's men's soccer team has been nationally ranked and made multiple NCAA tournaments in recent years making it to the semifinals in one year. How is it that PC does so well in so many sports while URI struggles for excellence in all?

You know why... league membership. That's why PC is able to compete when similar small colleges could not. The Big East membership, and all its transition for decades, has served PC very well even when it was hard to break into the top half. The revenue from membership is key. Their Private status and "relationship" with local government is key to spending only what they need on what they want to spend it.

The combination of all time high in TV revenue for PC plus an excellent hire in their head coach has made their hoop success possible. Take either one of those away and they'd not be poised for 3 straight Dance appearances.

PC struggled with Hockey until they got the right coach. They don't always knock it out of the park on the first try either.

[RJ or other Friar fans please correct me if any of my statements are wrong. This was totally off the top of my head]

section(105) · Unread post by **section(105)** » 8 years ago

I have never liked nor see appropriate to use PC as some sort of measuring stick for our athletics. I would like to think there is an on-going review of a comprehensive plan in the athletic department. IT is probably tweaked from time to time to adapt to the A-10 goals and objectives. I also would like to think that review does not include any visions and considerations for changing league affiliations to something like that which was mentioned......unless......the A-10 makes some sudden, unlikely and drastic change to elevate itself to become a power conference, in all sports.....thus placing an unrealistic financial burden upon URI.....

RF1 · Unread post by **RF1** » 8 years ago

ATPTourFan wrote:
RF1 wrote:Why can a small school such as nearby Providence College do so well in athletics? They just announced a 37.5 million dollar facility yesterday and have been upgrading all their on campus athletics facilities in the last few years. They currently have the 14th ranked men's hoop program which is very likely headed to its 3rd straight NCAA. Its hockey team is ranked #1 and is the reigning national champion. It's men's soccer team has been nationally ranked and made multiple NCAA tournaments in recent years making it to the semifinals in one year. How is it that PC does so well in so many sports while URI struggles for excellence in all?
You know why... league membership. That's why PC is able to compete when similar small colleges could not. The Big East membership, and all its transition for decades, has served PC very well even when it was hard to break into the top half. The revenue from membership is key. Their Private status and "relationship" with local government is key to spending only what they need on what they want to spend it.

Then compare URI to fellow A-10 member St Bonaventure, a financially struggling little school with less than 1,800 undergrads located out in the boonies. It has gone to the NCAA men's tournament twice since Rhody last appeared and its women won the A-10 basketball tournament and went to the Women's NCAA. They are in the same league as URI with similar league revenue streams and spend even less on expenses than URI. How have they been able to find some success on occasion yet URI continues to be shut out year after year?

You have to at least admit, that URI gets very little return on its athletics investment. Why is it so bad here?

section(105) · Unread post by **section(105)** » 8 years ago

Free throws.....?

RF1 · Unread post by **RF1** » 8 years ago

What benefits does the A-10 provide to URI?

Do you feel league management and the other schools act in a manner or give serious consideration with regards to the best interests of URI?

Do you feel an affinity for the league and its other members schools? What are the connections?

Seawrightspostgame · Unread post by **Seawrightspostgame** » 8 years ago

People put too much thought into spending in sports. The monetary difference doesn't exist in terms of people. Also the rankings kids have coming out of high school are like 50/50.

URI does have things going for it. In the $$$ column too. URI Dayton and SLU have the best arenas and it would take a lot to match them. I don't understand why people routinely put blinders on and not realize the SAC is great. There are like 50 basketball courts at URI.

rjsuperfly66 · Unread post by **rjsuperfly66** » 8 years ago

ATPTourFan wrote:
RF1 wrote:Why can a small school such as nearby Providence College do so well in athletics? They just announced a 37.5 million dollar facility yesterday and have been upgrading all their on campus athletics facilities in the last few years. They currently have the 14th ranked men's hoop program which is very likely headed to its 3rd straight NCAA. Its hockey team is ranked #1 and is the reigning national champion. It's men's soccer team has been nationally ranked and made multiple NCAA tournaments in recent years making it to the semifinals in one year. How is it that PC does so well in so many sports while URI struggles for excellence in all?
You know why... league membership. That's why PC is able to compete when similar small colleges could not. The Big East membership, and all its transition for decades, has served PC very well even when it was hard to break into the top half. The revenue from membership is key. Their Private status and "relationship" with local government is key to spending only what they need on what they want to spend it.

The combination of all time high in TV revenue for PC plus an excellent hire in their head coach has made their hoop success possible. Take either one of those away and they'd not be poised for 3 straight Dance appearances.

PC struggled with Hockey until they got the right coach. They don't always knock it out of the park on the first try either.

[RJ or other Friar fans please correct me if any of my statements are wrong. This was totally off the top of my head]

ATP, 100% correct. It's all in the coaches, it's all in a little bit of luck, it's a huge number of factors.
The conference is a big part, you can argue that despite losing big programs, for at least the 10 year Fox period, the BE won.
To sustain it after, sure they need to be a lot better in March, but they are ok for the moment.
Recruiting is still good, the money is 2x and then some what it ever was.
You combine the good hire with the extra money coming in, makes it easier for the amentities.
A practice facility might be unnecessary to some, but to 16-18 year old kids, it's cool.
It's like a chartered flight, or an athletic dorm.
You'll never be able to keep up with the blue-bloods, but I think you have to at least try.
Think the worst mistake you can make is say "We can't keep up" or "It's stupid and unnecessary spending."
The BE membership has been a large part of PC being able to do that.

bigappleram · Unread post by **bigappleram** » 8 years ago

The A10 serves URIs primary interest in basketball by placing teams in the NCAA tourney. End of story.

I can't believe because we have lost 3 winnable basketball games we are now rethinking whether we belong in the A10, and someone even uttered the word Patriot League...barf.

You know what catapults teams like Soccer, Football, etc to the middle to top of the conference -- better coaching hires. When Ed Bradley was at URI we had a national presence. Look what LaForce is doing to bring back a dormant women's program. Its all about great coaching hires, and then giving those hires the right resources.

RhowdyRam02 · Unread post by **RhowdyRam02** » 8 years ago

RF1 wrote:What benefits does the A-10 provide to URI?

Do you feel league management and the other schools act in a manner or give serious consideration with regards to the best interests of URI?

Do you feel an affinity for the league and its other members schools? What are the connections?

It gives us more income then other possible leagues would give us. It provides us better opponents then other possible leagues. It gets us better exposure then other possible leagues.

What is your solution? What is your alternative?

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 8 years ago

rjsuperfly66 wrote: The conference is a big part, you can argue that despite losing big programs, for at least the 10 year Fox period, the BE won.

I don't think it benefited the conference overall and maybe not any other school, but the re-tooling of the BE was uniquely beneficial to PC because while the league got worse it still has name recognition and suddenly PC went from not being able to compete to being a factor at the top of the standings. Schools like Georgetown, Villanova and Marquette got burned because the loss of the other premium programs hurt the perceptions of their programs; for schools like St. John's, Seton Hall and Depaul it doesn't matter because they still aren't able to compete even in a weakened conference. Of the Old Big East teams, PC was the Goldilocks team for whom this change worked out perfectly, and combining that with having nailed the coaching hire this time, things have really worked out well for them.

spookydog · Unread post by **spookydog** » 8 years ago

RF1 wrote:My original post was to initiate a thought provoking general discussion and introspection about URI athletics and its membership in the A-10.

I understand why you asked this but it is crazy & completely foolish to want to change the course. Since going to the NBE isn't an option, going down a level is the only recourse. You would be going to a league that only gets one bid & we all know how much Dan Hurley loved that. It's one of the reasons he left Wagner. They went 25-5 (I think) & couldn't get in because they didn't win the NEC. He hates 1 bid leagues & rightfully so.

RF1 · Unread post by **RF1** » 8 years ago

Are people generally pleased with the performance of URI athletics in recent years? While I know men's basketball is the primary focus of most here, do you care that most all other sports programs at URI don't do very well? Is it acceptable that men's hoops hasn't been to the NCAA in the last 16 years and that looks like it may continue this season? Do you think URI athletics gets a decent return on the money it spends?

sf2010 · Unread post by **sf2010** » 8 years ago

RF1 wrote:Are people generally pleased with the performance of URI athletics in recent years? While i know men's basketball is the primary focus of most here, do you care that most all other sports programs at URI don't do very well? Is it acceptable that men's hoops hasn't been to the NCAA in the last 16 years and that looks like it may continue this season? Do you think URI athletics gets a decent return on the money it spends?

In order: No, sort of, BIG NO, and I don't know enough about the situation. I am sure that the athletics department has many of its best people working on making sure that their ROI improves. I am also sure that dropping our most prominent sport into a less prestigious conference is not the best solution to fixing the overall performance of our athletic programs.

adam914 · Unread post by **adam914** » 8 years ago

RF1 wrote:Are people generally pleased with the performance of URI athletics in recent years? While I know men's basketball is the primary focus of most here, do you care that most all other sports programs at URI don't do very well? Is it acceptable that men's hoops hasn't been to the NCAA in the last 16 years and that looks like it may continue this season? Do you think URI athletics gets a decent return on the money it spends?

Given this criteria and some of the other comments you've made in this thread, I have to assume you think football should be dropped completely, correct?

steveystuds06 · Unread post by **steveystuds06** » 8 years ago

Why would we ever drop our most important sport to a lesser conference! What to be a 15 seed and get spanked in the first round. I know this team has been extremely frustrating this season, but we are right there to get a bid the next couple years and our incoming class should continue this. It would be a huge mistake. I have trained some football players at my gym so I would hope that they don't drop football. I would understand if they did because consistently winning 1-2 games a year is tough to see.

RF1 · Unread post by **RF1** » 8 years ago

adam914 wrote:
RF1 wrote:Are people generally pleased with the performance of URI athletics in recent years? While I know men's basketball is the primary focus of most here, do you care that most all other sports programs at URI don't do very well? Is it acceptable that men's hoops hasn't been to the NCAA in the last 16 years and that looks like it may continue this season? Do you think URI athletics gets a decent return on the money it spends?
Given this criteria and some of the other comments you've made in this thread, I have to assume you think football should be dropped completely, correct?

No. Football is not unlike many other sports with regards to futility. Just as most sports at URI, it is generally underfunded and not adequately supported and consequently has difficulty competing. Football however, unlike most URI sports, actually has a strong booster club (for URI) and draws on average close to men's basketball.

adam914 · Unread post by **adam914** » 8 years ago

RF1 wrote:
adam914 wrote:
RF1 wrote:Are people generally pleased with the performance of URI athletics in recent years? While I know men's basketball is the primary focus of most here, do you care that most all other sports programs at URI don't do very well? Is it acceptable that men's hoops hasn't been to the NCAA in the last 16 years and that looks like it may continue this season? Do you think URI athletics gets a decent return on the money it spends?
Given this criteria and some of the other comments you've made in this thread, I have to assume you think football should be dropped completely, correct?
No. Football is not unlike many other sports with regards to futility. Just as most sports at URI, it is generally underfunded and not adequately supported and consequently has difficulty competing. Football however, unlike most URI sports, actually has a strong booster club (for URI) and draws on average close to men's basketball.

That's what I figured, your own criteria only applies to the select situation you want it to.

rjsuperfly66 · Unread post by **rjsuperfly66** » 8 years ago

TruePoint wrote:
rjsuperfly66 wrote: The conference is a big part, you can argue that despite losing big programs, for at least the 10 year Fox period, the BE won.
I don't think it benefited the conference overall and maybe not any other school, but the re-tooling of the BE was uniquely beneficial to PC because while the league got worse it still has name recognition and suddenly PC went from not being able to compete to being a factor at the top of the standings. Schools like Georgetown, Villanova and Marquette got burned because the loss of the other premium programs hurt the perceptions of their programs; for schools like St. John's, Seton Hall and Depaul it doesn't matter because they still aren't able to compete even in a weakened conference. Of the Old Big East teams, PC was the Goldilocks team for whom this change worked out perfectly, and combining that with having nailed the coaching hire this time, things have really worked out well for them.

I agree to an extent. Villanova, Georgetown, and Marquette have seen minimal negative effects as a result of the switch. Marquette lost Buzz Williams which hurt, but Wojo has done great. They are competitively scheduling, and the conference play has been strong. All metrics average to be pretty good the past 3 years. All are still recruiting at extraordinary levels. Of course they would have been better off with the other top programs, but they also might not have seen this money. All things considered, they had to make the move by default and it's been far better than expected. Losing tourney games isn't a result of the switch, the one area they need to be better in.

As far as PC goes, this narrative they couldn't compete in the old BE is patently false. They couldn't compete because Welsh basically stopped recruiting and Keno was a joke. The NIT a few years back, PC was 9/16 I think. Do I think PC would be a top-end team like they have been now? No, probably not. But I think they would still be competitive, chasing tourney bids, etc.

RF1 · Unread post by **RF1** » 8 years ago

My perspective on the A-10:

The A-10 is a very good basketball league. It is settling into a position just outside the Power-5 conferences. This is quite an accomplishment given all the teams that have departed in recent years. It typically garners several at large men's NCAA invites but that has not seemed to help Rhody as we are in the midst of a 16 year drought. It's tv contract revenue (several hundred thousand/yr) is a fraction (less than 10%) of higher profile leagues. While the league pays out revenues and gets exposure that low level leagues do not, it costs substantially more to to compete in it. If you never get to the NCAA (league payout is heavily weighted to schools that get the bids) which nets more revenues, I question whether it is cost effective.

I don't think other A-10 schools and fans feel much love for URI. I recall that when URI was fighting for an NCAA bid on occasion in the last decade, it did not get much support from the league and other schools. I particularly remember St. Joe's Coach Phil Martelli declining to support URI's argument and PR bid for the NCAA.

It seems to me that league management does not do much to raise each and every member. Look no further than the continued gross ineptitude of Fordham or Duquesne. The league in my view tries to raise its image more through its successful schools and goes out of its way to cater to them. The league actions in many ways help create a byproduct that maintains a permanent caste system whereby it is more difficult for lower members to escape.

The league on the whole has been run at various times by multiple factions with URI always seemingly on the outside. The Catholic/private schools now make up the majority of the membership and their interests have more sway (see new members added over the years). I also think the league has had some geographic blocks over the years which have dominated league business and interests. When URI first joined, it was the Pittsburgh area (combinations of Pitt, Duquense, WVU, and PSU), then the Philly schools (Temple, SJU, and LaSalle) and now the VA/DC schools (GW, GMU, UR, and VCU). URI has typically been an outsider in the A-10 being a geographically isolated public state school. This has affected the New England market with UMass and URI in my estimation. This region is mostly an afterthought to the A-10 (there has never been a tournament in NE despite the presence of two of the largest and longest tenured members) with nothing much done to raise the league profile here. It falls entirely on the individual schools to promote themselves and the conference. If UMass were to leave the league, that will become even more of an issue here.

Other than UMass, I do not have much of a strong connection to the other members of the A-10. Most of them are distant schools that are very different than Rhody. There is little in common. While I might be a little more excited to see the better league teams (say Dayton and VCU), most of the others these days do not get me worked up.

section(105) · Unread post by **section(105)** » 8 years ago

I think we need to continue to be in a conference that sees the value of institutions with strong academics, and basketball centric robust athletic programs......we should do what is necessary to gather the necessary resources to compete.....unless the conference goes in some other direction, I think we are right where we need to be....no?

Frank_Keaney_95 · Unread post by **Frank_Keaney_95** » 8 years ago

bigappleram wrote:The A10 serves URIs primary interest in basketball by placing teams in the NCAA tourney. End of story.

I can't believe because we have lost 3 winnable basketball games we are now rethinking whether we belong in the A10, and someone even uttered the word Patriot League...barf.

You know what catapults teams like Soccer, Football, etc to the middle to top of the conference -- better coaching hires. When Ed Bradley was at URI we had a national presence. Look what LaForce is doing to bring back a dormant women's program. Its all about great coaching hires, and then giving those hires the right resources.

Amen, BAR.

URI leaving the A10 would be a disastrous move. The A10 is a great fit. SLU and the Bonnies are more of an outlier than we are? Two of the most recent additions, VCU and Mason, are state schools. Unfortunately, UMASS will leave to follow their football pipe dream which is sad but we still have plenty of solid rivals remaining. In Bernie we trust. Also, with our decreased funding from the state, we're basically a private school anyway.

It is definitely about hiring the best coaches.

It's not like URI is a tough place to sell to a recruit. RI is one of the most beautiful states in the country. Kraft, Penders, Skinner and Harrick succeeded in Kingston with a fraction of the resources that recent Rhody coaches have had. Hurley will be fine and this rebuild will happen. Losing EC was about as big a blow as we could handle but with the addition of next year's class and Stan, the future looks bright.

As far as geography is concerned, look at the Big East. PC's closest rivals are SJU and SHU. How is that any different than URI having Fordham, SJU and Lasalle as our closest rivals?

860_rhody · Unread post by **860_rhody** » 8 years ago

Not sure why UMASS leaving has anything to do with us. Ya it will stink not to have a rival close by that we can travel to, but there are far worse geographical outliers in CBB - just look at the Huskies in the UCONNference.

sf2010 · Unread post by **sf2010** » 8 years ago

RF1 wrote:My perspective on the A-10:

The A-10 is a very good basketball league. It is settling into a position just outside the Power-5 conferences. This is quite an accomplishment given all the teams that have departed in recent years. It typically garners several at large men's NCAA invites but that has not seemed to help Rhody as we are in the midst of a 16 year drought. It's not the fault of the A10 that URI hasn't taken advantage of the strength of the league. If anything the overall competitiveness has helped the program It's tv contract revenue (several hundred thousand/yr) is a fraction (less than 10%) of higher profile leagues. While the league pays out revenues and gets exposure that low level leagues do not, it costs substantially more to to compete in it. If you never get to the NCAA (league payout is heavily weighted to schools that get the bids) which nets more revenues, I question whether it is cost effective.

I don't think other A-10 schools and fans feel much love for URI. I recall that when URI was fighting for an NCAA bid on occasion in the last decade, it did not get much support from the league and other schools. I particularly remember St. Joe's Coach Phil Martelli declining to support URI's argument and PR bid for the NCAA.

It seems to me that league management does not do much to raise each and every member. Look no further than the continued gross ineptitude of Fordham or Duquesne. The league in my view tries to raise its image more through its successful schools and goes out of its way to cater to them. The league actions in many ways help create a byproduct that maintains a permanent caste system whereby it is more difficult for lower members to escape.

The league on the whole has been run at various times by multiple factions with URI always seemingly on the outside. The Catholic/private schools now make up the majority of the membership and their interests have more sway (see new members added over the years). I also think the league has had some geographic blocks over the years which have dominated league business and interests. When URI first joined, it was the Pittsburgh area (combinations of Pitt, Duquense, WVU, and PSU), then the Philly schools (Temple, SJU, and LaSalle) and now the VA/DC schools (GW, GMU, UR, and VCU). URI has typically been an outsider in the A-10 being a geographically isolated public state school. This has affected the New England market with UMass and URI in my estimation. This region is mostly an afterthought to the A-10 (there has never been a tournament in NE despite the presence of two of the largest and longest tenured members) with nothing much done to raise the league profile here. It falls entirely on the individual schools to promote themselves and the conference. If UMass were to leave the league, that will become even more of an issue here. Does America East go tooting its own horn all over the place? Perhaps I'm not looking hard enough or in the right places, but I am really struggling to identify how the A10 has damaged the URI athletic department.

Other than UMass, I do not have much of a strong connection to the other members of the A-10. Most of them are distant schools that are very different than Rhody. There is little in common. While I might be a little more excited to see the better league teams (say Dayton and VCU), most of the others these days do not get me worked up. As confusing as it has made things, geography now matters less and less in terms of conference alignment. But I think that's for the best in URI's case. Maybe Fordham and Duquesne don't quite get the juices flowing, but you would rather play Quinnipiac, CCSU, Holy Cross, and UNH on a yearly basis? The top programs in those leagues would not move the needle any more than the bottom programs in the A10 do.

section(105) · Unread post by **section(105)** » 8 years ago

I had a feeling this was gonna be a long week....... When is it Saturday.......?

theblueram · Unread post by **theblueram** » 8 years ago

most ridiculous thread ever. Top 5, 6 or 7 conference in the country is the A10.

RF1 · Unread post by **RF1** » 8 years ago

theblueram wrote:most ridiculous thread ever. Top 5, 6 or 7 conference in the country is the A10.

And yet with that in mind and a new arena which opened in 2002, it has not helped URI get to the NCAA Tournament since 1999. If Rhody consistently isn't getting to the tournament , does the quality of the league matter much? It's like having great benefits at work but never taking advantage of them.

section(105) · Unread post by **section(105)** » 8 years ago

Yes, cause when lightning strikes, we will be right there....Let's hope the Yankee Conference is not coming thru the door....

The Dude · Unread post by **The Dude** » 8 years ago

Personally I feel the A-10 has been on the rise as a whole for the past few years. They are getting more attention and getting 3 or 4 spots in the NCAA tournament each year. They continue to beat good teams this year...who knows...at some point the conference may get 5 teams to the dance. Rhode Island is already "almost" as far east geographically as a school can get, so no mater what changes occur within the conference you're most likely not going to find too many teams joining the conference who are going to be closer in proximity geographically. UCONN, Temple, PC, Boston College, etc...I doubt are going to leave their big conferences any time soon due to the revenue from TV deals. I think Rhody is right where it needs to be. It's not a big fish in a small pond that doesn't play in a conference with tough opposition and it's not a small fish in a big pond in which they might be a bottom dweller in the conference year after year. They are in a conference that affords them the opportunity to be competitive year in and year out. If you have a 14 team conference that has the opportunity to send 3 or 4 teams to the tournament each year that's 21 - 29% of the teams in the conference can make the tournament percentage-wise. As the A10 continues to beat good teams in out of conference play, like this year, there may come a time in a few years that the A10 starts to gain 4 or 5 bids on a consistent basis...especially if some of those teams like Dayton, VCU, Davidson, Rhody, etc...start to win games in the NCAA tournament. This would mean 1/3 (29-35%) of the teams in the conference will have a shot to go to the big dance each year. In my opinion, that's a damn good percentage.
The A10 seems to be improving as a whole just as Rhody seems to be improving as a team. I think the future for Rhody and the A10 is pretty bright. I don't think the conference would even blink if UMass left. I honestly don't think it would hurt the conference much. If anything I think it would hurt UMass more. Their football program went D-1 and has floundered ever since. If their basketball program left the A10 for a bigger conference I'm pretty sure the same exact thing would happen...they would flounder in the conference and be a little fish in a big pond and become a consistent bottom dweller in the conference. The grass isn't always greener.
This is just my opinion.

steveystuds06 · Unread post by **steveystuds06** » 8 years ago

The Dude wrote:Personally I feel the A-10 has been on the rise as a whole for the past few years. They are getting more attention and getting 3 or 4 spots in the NCAA tournament each year. They continue to beat good teams this year...who knows...at some point the conference may get 5 teams to the dance. Rhode Island is already "almost" as far east geographically as a school can get, so no mater what changes occur within the conference you're most likely not going to find too many teams joining the conference who are going to be closer in proximity geographically. UCONN, Temple, PC, Boston College, etc...I doubt are going to leave their big conferences any time soon due to the revenue from TV deals. I think Rhody is right where it needs to be. It's not a big fish in a small pond that doesn't play in a conference with tough opposition and it's not a small fish in a big pond in which they might be a bottom dweller in the conference year after year. They are in a conference that affords them the opportunity to be competitive year in and year out. If you have a 14 team conference that has the opportunity to send 3 or 4 teams to the tournament each year that's 21 - 29% of the teams in the conference can make the tournament percentage-wise. As the A10 continues to beat good teams in out of conference play, like this year, there may come a time in a few years that the A10 starts to gain 4 or 5 bids on a consistent basis...especially if some of those teams like Dayton, VCU, Davidson, Rhody, etc...start to win games in the NCAA tournament. This would mean 1/3 (29-35%) of the teams in the conference will have a shot to go to the big dance each year. In my opinion, that's a damn good percentage.
The A10 seems to be improving as a whole just as Rhody seems to be improving as a team. I think the future for Rhody and the A10 is pretty bright. I don't think the conference would even blink if UMass left. I honestly don't think it would hurt the conference much. If anything I think it would hurt UMass more. Their football program went D-1 and has floundered ever since. If their basketball program left the A10 for a bigger conference I'm pretty sure the same exact thing would happen...they would flounder in the conference and be a little fish in a big pond and become a consistent bottom dweller in the conference. The grass isn't always greener.
This is just my opinion.

Awesome post couldn't agree more

section(105) · Unread post by **section(105)** » 8 years ago

And to drag out the long week......maybe I should stop?.....an interesting/or not, question would be speculation on which program would be good for the A-10 if UMass left....I think we have plowed that ground before.....

theblueram · Unread post by **theblueram** » 8 years ago

RF1 wrote:
theblueram wrote:most ridiculous thread ever. Top 5, 6 or 7 conference in the country is the A10.

And yet with that in mind and a new arena which opened in 2002, it has not helped URI get to the NCAA Tournament since 1999. If Rhody consistently isn't getting to the tournament , does the quality of the league matter much? It's like having great benefits at work but never taking advantage of them.

Hahahaha. You think the Conference is preventing URI from getting to the NCAAT? WOW.

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