NCAA Tournament - General Discussion

ramfan85 · Unread post by **ramfan85** » 9 years ago

Not calling a flagrant 1 or 2 was ridiculous. Looked like the refs (ncaa) really wanted the undefeated team in the finals.
The ONLY reason I can possibly think of for not calling that foul is because he wasn't looking at the player when he hit him. And that's really stretching it.
Glad to see Wisconsin win, though. If it was going to be Kentucky and Duke, I'd probably watch Dancing with the Stars.

UCH21377 · Unread post by **UCH21377** » 9 years ago

That was a fantastic game. Don't think the refs were favoring Kentucky; the tying basket by Wisconsin was definitely late. The refs just weren't very good. Hate Duke but I have a feeling they're going to win tomorrow night. Wisconsin was so excited after that game; just don't know if they can get back up emotionally again, two nights later. Wasn't there a similar scenario back in the 70's or 80's when a team pulled off a major upset in the semis only to lose as a favorite in the final?

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 9 years ago

I'd love to see Wisconsin win it, and strike a blow for
four year players.
So tired of these one and dones.
I was watching Monrteverde against Oak Hill in a prep championship.
All the color guy did was rave about what certain players will do in
the NBA.
College is like a rite of passage and nothing more.

rambone 78 · Unread post by **rambone 78** » 9 years ago

Well, in the women's tournament, ND wins a thriller over SC, 66-65.

They imo are the only team that could possibly beat UConn Tuesday night. They know how to win the close ones. UConn never plays any close ones.

So, if it's close, they could steal it. Making it close, though, is the problem against UConn.

bressler3south · Unread post by **bressler3south** » 9 years ago

PREDICTIONS FOR THE BIG GAME???????

Wisconsin 73, Duke 68

Billyboy78 · Unread post by **Billyboy78** » 9 years ago

bressler3south wrote:PREDICTIONS FOR THE BIG GAME???????

Wisconsin 73, Duke 68

Rhode Island 76, Duke 75.....oh wait, that's next year.

rambone 78 · Unread post by **rambone 78** » 9 years ago

Hope you're right, Bressler.

The key for Wisconsin, is just keep shooting like they have, and they will win.

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 9 years ago

Duke 70-66

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 9 years ago

Badgers need to make free throws, and get Kaminsky more shots.

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 9 years ago

So much Mike Stephens, my old coach.

Billyboy78 · Unread post by **Billyboy78** » 9 years ago

Tyus Jones was great. How many of the Duke frosh are one and done?

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 9 years ago

Duke probably couldn't have got there without their bigs, but their guards won the game for them.

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 9 years ago

Wisconsin went away from what got them there.
Hero ball by their guards, when Duke could not stop Kaminsky.
I wonder if, based on the tourney at Townes of Kentucky has passed Okafor
for the number one NBA choice.

RAM67 · Unread post by **RAM67** » 9 years ago

It was nice to hear the post game interview with Bo Ryan, where he was honest about the officiating. Yes the Duke frosh were great, but coach K turned the refs in the second half. Someday Dan will have that cache and be able to get the refs to work for him instead of against, as they did with Duke tonight. It was also interesting that Gumbel commented that Ryan was "gracious in defeat". Apparently I was watching a different interview.

josephski · Unread post by **josephski** » 9 years ago

RAM67 wrote:It was nice to hear the post game interview with Bo Ryan, where he was honest about the officiating. Yes the Duke frosh were great, but coach K turned the refs in the second half. Someday Dan will have that cache and be able to get the refs to work for him instead of against, as they did with Duke tonight. It was also interesting that Gumbel commented that Ryan was "gracious in defeat". Apparently I was watching a different interview.

Yea not sure how Gumbel could consider Ryan gracious in defeat. Ryan said in the post game they don't "rent-a-player". He's acts as if Jahlil Okafor had wanted to go to Wisconsin he wouldn't take him.

Running Ram · Unread post by **Running Ram** » 9 years ago

Neither team would be able to compete for the title without outstanding post play, sure college BB is more guard centric than NBA BB, but outstanding post play is the difference between competing for a title and competing for a spot in the tourney. I think its pretty clear from all the championship games I've watched and it hasn't changed in 32 years. An outstanding team can be built without but to date none of those outstanding teams without a good post product has won a title. This is observation and it doesn't in any manner mean I am assuming we won't get there too, just to make the point of the importance of post play and why many are anxious to see the puzzle be completed for Rhody.

bressler3south · Unread post by **bressler3south** » 9 years ago

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

rambone 78 · Unread post by **rambone 78** » 9 years ago

Agree on all points RR.

As for Dan having the "cache" with the refs like K does, yeah sure. After the game last night, Ryan said the refs completely changed the way they called the game in the second half. Different from any game they played all season.

NOBODY gets the calls [or non calls] like Duke does late in close games. The only team that might have come close, would have been if Kentucky played them last night.

As long as he's their coach, it won't change.

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 9 years ago

That out of bounds call was blown by the refs.
Funny, you could clearly see the ball going off the
fingertips of a Duke player.
Wisconsin didn't get on charge/block call in the second half.
Ryan was unhappy and I don't blame him.
Of course Duke grad Bilas would defend the refs. His team won.

sf2010 · Unread post by **sf2010** » 9 years ago

I don't like Duke.

The refs made the correct decision on the out-of-bounds call. There was not enough to over turn it. Even on zoomed-in replay you couldn't see the rotation of the ball shift in any way, and couldn't be certain that Winslow's fingers made contact. The refs didn't win the game for Duke - Grayson Allen and Tyus Jones did.

sf2010 · Unread post by **sf2010** » 9 years ago

Running Ram wrote:I think its pretty clear from all the championship games I've watched and it hasn't changed in 32 years. An outstanding team can be built without but to date none of those outstanding teams without a good post product has won a title.

Just to cherry-pick a few from recent memory, UConn is 2014/2011, Louisville in 2013, Syracuse in 2003, MSU in 2000. It is somewhat rare, to be sure, to find teams without a critical post presence that win a championship, but dominant post play is not nearly as critical as dominant guard play. And yes, I know, Hurley knows, his dog knows, we need more big men.

RAM67 · Unread post by **RAM67** » 9 years ago

It looked like the touch was fairly insignificant, but that call has to be made regardless of the whether there is a minor change in rotation or a very large change. I think the announcers had it correct after they viewed several different takes. Also that one call may have been at a crucial point in the game, but it was the entirety of the second half that had me upset. There were a couple of "and ones" that were absolutely off the charts, as a charge could have been easily called. I will be the first to admit that I've had a strong bias against the refs especially this year, and I was rooting for Wisconsin or against Duke, take your pick.

rambone 78 · Unread post by **rambone 78** » 9 years ago

Duke was allowed to do whatever they wanted on defense late in the game. On offense, they ran over Wisconsin players more than once, no calls.

Lots of contact not called.

BilASS is an ASS.

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 9 years ago

Too bad, because Wisconsin would have struck a blow for
a real team, with no one and dones.
Just guys from the Midwest, who are good four year players.
Coack K has almost as many one and dones as Kentucky, it seems.

Billyboy78 · Unread post by **Billyboy78** » 9 years ago

That charge/block call also would have been Winslow's 4th foul, right after Okafor got his 4th. It looked pretty clear to me that was a charge. K must have talked to the refs at halftime and pointed out that Wisconsin had only 2 fouls and they had to do something about it. They obliged.

Running Ram · Unread post by **Running Ram** » 9 years ago

sf, 2011 UConn had a future NBA F Alex Oriakhi on it, with a total complement of 5 players 6'8" or better, 2014 UConn had DeAndre Daniels and a total of 6 players 6'8" or better, Louisville had 6'11" Minn Timberwolf Gorgui Dieng with a total compliment of 4 players 6'8" or better, shall I go on or do you see how you are only making my point by using these teams as your examples of title teams without post presence. I didn't say the title team had to have the best post game in college, just a post game that competes with the top teams and yes outstanding guard play is the more important of the two, but without post presence, at least in my opinion, a team can only go so far.

Rhodymob05 · Unread post by **Rhodymob05** » 9 years ago

I am now really leaning towards refs blowing calls on purpose. I never wanted to believe it but its jus too obvious now. Game after game obvious calls are not being called. We have the BEST replay footage available. 20 million viewers all can agree with the right call but three professional refs cannot? How about the non flagrant during the WI UK game. Its just funny now.

Running Ram · Unread post by **Running Ram** » 9 years ago

also sf, I did notice the ball change rotation after it was touched by Winslow. Blown call.

sf2010 · Unread post by **sf2010** » 9 years ago

Good video of the play here. I realize that every response to the video is that it went off his finger, but I honestly don't see it. The ball does not change direction or rotation - the only slight evidence is that Winslow's finger seems to move with the ball, but it is inconclusive to my eyes.

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/post/_/ ... -wisconsin

sf2010 · Unread post by **sf2010** » 9 years ago

Running Ram wrote:sf, 2011 UConn had a future NBA F Alex Oriakhi on it, with a total complement of 5 players 6'8" or better, 2014 UConn had DeAndre Daniels and a total of 6 players 6'8" or better, Louisville had 6'11" Minn Timberwolf Gorgui Dieng with a total compliment of 4 players 6'8" or better, shall I go on or do you see how you are only making my point by using these teams as your examples of title teams without post presence. I didn't say the title team had to have the best post game in college, just a post game that competes with the top teams and yes outstanding guard play is the more important of the two, but without post presence, at least in my opinion, a team can only go so far.

Alex Oriakhi averaged 7pts and 5rebs per game at UConn. DeAndre Daniels is the furthest thing from a post player that a 6'9" person can be. You got me on Dieng, I forgot about him.

Good post scoring helps. Balanced scoring helps. Of course teams should strive to have interior scoring as well as perimeter. Most championship teams have both. A few do not have an interior scoring presence. None lack perimeter scoring/outside shooting. I think it is more true to say that perimeter scoring is necessary as opposed to interior scoring.

Running Ram · Unread post by **Running Ram** » 9 years ago

I GUESS its close enough for the refs to call it inconclusive, but with three refs making the replay call I find it hard to believe two of them didn't see a rotation change, it seems to me, and I may be incorrect, from the chat here that a touch of the ball is the majority opinion, probably two to one.

sf2010 · Unread post by **sf2010** » 9 years ago

Running Ram wrote:I GUESS its close enough for the refs to call it inconclusive, but with three refs making the replay call I find it hard to believe two of them didn't see a rotation change, it seems to me, and I may be incorrect, from the chat here that a touch of the ball is the majority opinion, probably two to one.

The poll at the bottom of that article actually has 88% of respondents saying that the refs blew it

Rhodekill · Unread post by **Rhodekill** » 9 years ago

it is obvious...his finger bends back through contact with the ball....blown call...

Running Ram · Unread post by **Running Ram** » 9 years ago

Post presence = floor spacing, it is not necessary for x amount of points to come from the paint, it is necessary for post players to command attention and have good body mechanics.

You're right about Daniels, and the discussion shouldn't focus on height I guess, but all of the teams you mention probably had better post presence than any team that didn't make this year's sweet sixteen. And any of them would probably beat our current roster down for lack of post play. Again I already noted that guard play is the more important and I don't think we need Lew Alcindor Jr. to succeed. I don't care if our entire front court averages 15 points a game as long as they are a threat and command proper floor spacing.

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 9 years ago

Like I said, Duke's two best players are Winslow and Okafor, and they wouldn't have been in the championship without those guys. But they did not win last night because of those guys, they won because Jones and Allen took the game over. Post play is definitely important, but so is guard play. Balance is the most important thing of all.

rambone 78 · Unread post by **rambone 78** » 9 years ago

Balance is the key word, TP. You have to have both good post and good guard play, so defenses can't focus on just one area.

These early early predictions, they're nice, but they increase the expectations and pressure that comes with trying to fulfill same.

Based on what we have now for a roster, a 7 seed is too high. Bring in a couple of big men, and that's much more realistic for us.

jmck · Unread post by **jmck** » 9 years ago

Tale of 2 half with the refs. Wisconsin got every call in the first half including phantom foul calls on winslow and okafor and Duke got every call in the second half. Can we just agree that the refs suck? It's amazing that people think there is a conspiracy. I think the refs made the right call on the deflection because there wasn't enough to overturn it. If I am Wisconsin I am more upset with winslows foot on the end line when he dished it to Okafor right before that. Of course you also could have called a foul since winslow was pushed out of bounds

Seawrightspostgame · Unread post by **Seawrightspostgame** » 9 years ago

a 7 seed just says they are 1 of the best 28 teams. What do you think 8?9?10? a 10 seed puts you in that 36-40 range.

Unread post by **SGreenwell** » 9 years ago

rodfromcranston wrote:Wisconsin went away from what got them there.
Hero ball by their guards, when Duke could not stop Kaminsky.
I wonder if, based on the tourney at Townes of Kentucky has passed Okafor
for the number one NBA choice.

It's more of a horse race now, with team need kind of influencing whether Townes or Okafor is #1 on the draft board, at least according to ESPN. Okafor is the more refined offensive player, Townes is better defensively.

Rhode_Island_Red · Unread post by **Rhode_Island_Red** » 9 years ago

I didn't watch the first half, choosing instead the HBO Sinatra documentary (if you're of a certain age, it's well worth the time). I tuned in at the start of the second half, and when Dim Jim Nantz mentioned Wisconsin only had two fouls in the first half I turned to Mrs. Red and said, "the referees had better start blowing their whistles." Sure enough, they did.

PlayMikeMotenMore · Unread post by **PlayMikeMotenMore** » 9 years ago

Running Ram wrote:Post presence = floor spacing, it is not necessary for x amount of points to come from the paint, it is necessary for post players to command attention and have good body mechanics.

You're right about Daniels, and the discussion shouldn't focus on height I guess, but all of the teams you mention probably had better post presence than any team that didn't make this year's sweet sixteen. And any of them would probably beat our current roster down for lack of post play. Again I already noted that guard play is the more important and I don't think we need Lew Alcindor Jr. to succeed. I don't care if our entire front court averages 15 points a game as long as they are a threat and command proper floor spacing.

Daniels was not a post-presence...he liked to jack it up from beyond the arc. He was as much of a post-presence as Sam Dekker.

Having a strong post-game is not a requirement in college ball but it sure is a nice asset to have. The great St. Joe's teams of recent memory (Jameer's team and Marvin O'Connor's team), Villanova's Final Four team (Lowry and what's his name), and Wichita State are teams that are guard-dominated.

What I do think helps is to have some big men that can finish with a 1-step dunk on a drop off pass from a penetrating guard, can go eat some glass offensive rebounding, and can block a shot or two. That's what UCONN has had, LVille has had, Florida had and others.

It's rare to find a big guy where you throw it down to the low block and say to him "go to work, big fella." More often than not, we're seeing in college hoops guards chuck it at the rim and we're saying to the big buy "go get it, big fella."

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 9 years ago

0 of 10 on ESPN's top 10 are Centers of Power Forwards.
Does that tell you that bigs are valued as more than garbage
players, to fetch guard's rebounds?
A good big should be able to dominate inside on offense and defense.

bigappleram · Unread post by **bigappleram** » 9 years ago

Agree with the notion above - foolish to think we will land a true back-to-the-basket offensively skilled big. There are about 4-5 in all of college hoops. A Bonzie Colson, Carson Desrosiers type role player is our realistic type target. A big body, to protect the rim, play good defense, get some garbage points, be a role player. Not a lot of teams win big without a true C - but plenty win big without a back-to-the-basket offensive player.

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 9 years ago

Look at Kaminsky. He started four games in his
first two years.
Would every team in the country take his clone?
You bet!
I would wish Dan would bring in a four year guy with some potential,
and have a juco/5th year player to play immediately.

Seawrightspostgame · Unread post by **Seawrightspostgame** » 9 years ago

Kaminsky was great.

He also went to Wisconsin where they were a perennial top #25 team. Also Big ten.

We don't have those things going for us. I would imagine getting a Kaminsky would be a huge deal for us.

It seems like he was under the radar guy because hes the best player in college and white, but he was really a good get regardless of how he was turning out. He's legit over 7 feet.

BPR2010 · Unread post by **BPR2010** » 9 years ago

Kaminsky is the exception to the rule of most big men. Him, much like Adreian Payne last year, are matchup nightmares because of the ability to shoot the 3 ball AND have supreme footwork to draw opposing bigs to the perimeter and take them off the dribble. Kaminsky made Okafor look foolish multiple times last night when he had to guard out on the perimeter. Getting a Kaminsky type big is hitting the lottery. His footwork for how big he is, is incredible. Going to be a Kelly Olynyk type big in the NBA for sure.

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 9 years ago

I think it's sad that the only comparable mentioned by
"Unnamed scout", is a slow white guy, who added, Kaminsky would never start
as a 4 in the NBA, due to "lack of athleticism" aka code words for white guys.
Never saw Olynick with the kind of low post footwork that Kaminsky has.
As with many big men, Kaminsky took a long time to develop, starting only
4 games in his first two years.

PlayMikeMotenMore · Unread post by **PlayMikeMotenMore** » 9 years ago

Coach K. compared Kaminsky to Laettner. I think a very good comparison in regards to skill set and level of athleticsm. Other guys who made a career...Marty Conlon and Brad Lohaus. Kevin Love is not the most athletic guy either but he's doing pretty well in the league too.

I hope Frank the Tank gets a legit shot.

Olynick was a legit center in college...low post scorer.

Seawrightspostgame · Unread post by **Seawrightspostgame** » 9 years ago

Kaminsky is supremely talented, I think Olynek and just NBA big men in general are larger in the shoulders and hips.

Most men grow wider and stronger naturally but he seems very thin.

IMHO I would think he projected more like a Ryan Anderson. Or someone that really does their work on the perimeter, which could make him valuable to all teams.

bigappleram · Unread post by **bigappleram** » 9 years ago

Being 7 foot with range out to 22-25 feet has to negate some of the lack of athleticism. I think he makes it in the league. If Dan got a Kaminsky to come here they should gift him South County and maybe parts of Warwick too.