Re: Possible Big East Expansion
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:47 am
...but not for the BE. Travel is absolutely an easy rule-out. There might be talk about it, and some at some point may say it's not about the travel, but it is. There are some scattered conferences out there with probably some nutty travel already, but Gonzaga to the BE would set the bar for ridiculous, wouldn't it?rjsuperfly66 wrote: ↑5 years ago The odds of Gonzaga coming are small, but I don't think it's an automatic rule out because of travel. It'll be a consideration, but I bet it'll be a consideration more from the remaining 10 than it will be from Gonzaga. Regardless of what is trying to be sold here, the WCC is just not a good conference. In the last 4 years, the conference has averaged 1.5 tournament teams, 1.5 NIT teams, and 7 "bad" losses. This year the conference has a nice resume to date, but it's the outlier, not the norm. No team is going to draw their baseline on the fact that right now this year, the WCC has 5 top 100 teams. If offered enough money and another conference was 100% invested, Gonzaga would absolutely leave.
There are ways to structure the travel patterns in a way that are not so overbearing. You aren't going to send Gonzaga from Spokane-Providence-Spokane, just like you would not do the same to Providence. You would find geographic partners for certain road trips, and pair them accordingly. Gonzaga could pair with Creighton and Marquette/DePaul/Butler for one "extended" trip. I'd have to imagine that would almost be better than the fact that PC traveled to those four locations on separate trips last year.NYGFan_Section208 wrote: ↑5 years ago ...but not for the BE. Travel is absolutely an easy rule-out. There might be talk about it, and some at some point may say it's not about the travel, but it is. There are some scattered conferences out there with probably some nutty travel already, but Gonzaga to the BE would set the bar for ridiculous, wouldn't it?
Ramster, Gonzaga was ready to leave the WCC last year. There was a deal on the table with the MWC. Gonzaga leveraged the WCC for a $1 million payment in back-dated tournament shares and a reduced conference schedule (18 games to 16) to stay. The reality is, neither conference is producing any real TV revenue for a basketball-program. Both conferences will stretch to get 3 tournament teams. Both conferences will offer a ton of "landmine" games. So Gonzaga got their money from the WCC and stayed. Good play on their part. They aren't staying with the WCC because of "long-standing rivalries." Right now they have stayed because there hasn't been a quality opening. The Big East has almost half of their membership in the midwest, it's not a purely "East Coast Catholic School Conference." Gonzaga already travels the entire country for games because they need to build their schedule out because of their poor conference resume. They are playing at UNC, they have played at Creighton, they've played in OOC Tournaments. Some might remember a double-header in Boston back in 2007 that featured Gonzaga/UCONN and PC/BC. They join a quality conference, they are just altering their travel patterns from Nov/Dec to Jan/Feb. I fully believe if the Big East 10 offered Gonzaga, they would join in a heartbeat given TV money, shared tournament shares (yes, the WCC shares most of their tournament shares, shares won predominately by Gonzaga), etc. I just think the BE10 will wait for a quality candidate to emerge locally first. St. Louis makes sense, but they have some ebbs and flows that makes them a potentially unreliable 11th.ramster wrote: ↑5 years ago There is like a dumb and dumber “million to one” “you mean there’s a chance” that Gonzaga would leave the West Coast Catholic School Conference for the East Coast Catholic School Conference. It’s not just the travel but the Time zone change to boot.
Just not enough of an advantage to leave long-standing rivalries to have to create new rivalries. But it sounds good to Big East fans and to sports writers.
St Louis goes to slot 11 imho.
.......then, they could become “The Zags of the East......”NYGFan_Section208 wrote: ↑5 years ago...but not for the BE. Travel is absolutely an easy rule-out. There might be talk about it, and some at some point may say it's not about the travel, but it is. There are some scattered conferences out there with probably some nutty travel already, but Gonzaga to the BE would set the bar for ridiculous, wouldn't it?rjsuperfly66 wrote: ↑5 years ago The odds of Gonzaga coming are small, but I don't think it's an automatic rule out because of travel. It'll be a consideration, but I bet it'll be a consideration more from the remaining 10 than it will be from Gonzaga. Regardless of what is trying to be sold here, the WCC is just not a good conference. In the last 4 years, the conference has averaged 1.5 tournament teams, 1.5 NIT teams, and 7 "bad" losses. This year the conference has a nice resume to date, but it's the outlier, not the norm. No team is going to draw their baseline on the fact that right now this year, the WCC has 5 top 100 teams. If offered enough money and another conference was 100% invested, Gonzaga would absolutely leave.
It works, ish. Teams are tired of playing in conferences where they need to dominate their OOC and avoid bad losses in their conference play. In 2016, Gonzaga finished 28-8 and got an 11 seed. They were 1-5 against Top 50 teams and the 1 win was to win the WCC. They barely made the tournament, and that left a mark. Same happened to Wichita St in 2016 and 2017 which directly impacted their move to the AAC. They finished 26-9 and 31-5 and got an 11 seed and a 10 seed. These teams are tired of playing in conferences that require OOC perfection to get a solid seed because of lack of quality wins during conference play. If they don't shine during the OOC, hard to build that resume during conference play. Minimal room for mistakes in that model.ramster wrote: ↑5 years ago True,
Gonzaga travels a lot already with their OCC schedule which is a very good one. All the more reason why they would not want to pile on 3-time zone travel for their Big East Conference Schedule. The situation they are in now works very well for them. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.
St Louis is the best option for the Big East plus it meets their fav pastime of raiding the A10
I think that is a very simplistic approach. For example, if URI was invited to the Big East (and let's say Providence was not apart of the Big East and was replaced by generic team X -- say Cincinnati), would they be disappointed about leaving all of their old A10 partners behind? Or would they be excited about being in a conference with several very good teams that would elevate their NET? There are other things at play but let's not throw in rivalries as a significant reason. If you really care about a rival, you keep playing them in the OOC. Money talks.
URI is never being discussed as an addition candidate to any major conference-why not? Is URI satisfied with being at best a mid-major program forever?rambone 78 wrote: ↑5 years ago URI isn't just not Catholic, they are a state school and too close to PC.
Zero chance.
I didn't think this would be confusing, but we're not a candidate for a major conference because we never have had, do not currently have, and will never have FBS football. Then when you get to basketball conferences, we're not welcome in the Big East due to PC's presence. The Atlantic 10 is the best we can getRhody72 wrote: ↑5 years agoURI is never being discussed as an addition candidate to any major conference-why not? Is URI satisfied with being at best a mid-major program forever?rambone 78 wrote: ↑5 years ago URI isn't just not Catholic, they are a state school and too close to PC.
Zero chance.
When we have positioned ourselves to be an attractive school during the Harrick and Hurley eras we immediately take a step back by not going after a big-time coach using the money from our NCAA tournament success.
This is what frustrates me as a long-long-long time URI basketball fan.
There's a massive difference between joining the MWC and the BE, namely at least 520 miles. That's the difference between the team furthest east in the MW and the team furthest west in the BE. Gonzaga to the BE isn't happening. Right now BE fans want it because Gonzaga would instantly be a top two school in the conference, but the BE probably couldn't offer enough to make the change worthwhile. The second Gonzaga slips and making the change becomes worth it for Gonzaga it ceases to be worth it for Big East members to add them unless they slip a ton as a conference, and if that happens can they still offer enough to make a deal palatable?rjsuperfly66 wrote: ↑5 years agoRamster, Gonzaga was ready to leave the WCC last year. There was a deal on the table with the MWC. Gonzaga leveraged the WCC for a $1 million payment in back-dated tournament shares and a reduced conference schedule (18 games to 16) to stay. The reality is, neither conference is producing any real TV revenue for a basketball-program. Both conferences will stretch to get 3 tournament teams. Both conferences will offer a ton of "landmine" games. So Gonzaga got their money from the WCC and stayed. Good play on their part. They aren't staying with the WCC because of "long-standing rivalries." Right now they have stayed because there hasn't been a quality opening. The Big East has almost half of their membership in the midwest, it's not a purely "East Coast Catholic School Conference." Gonzaga already travels the entire country for games because they need to build their schedule out because of their poor conference resume. They are playing at UNC, they have played at Creighton, they've played in OOC Tournaments. Some might remember a double-header in Boston back in 2007 that featured Gonzaga/UCONN and PC/BC. They join a quality conference, they are just altering their travel patterns from Nov/Dec to Jan/Feb. I fully believe if the Big East 10 offered Gonzaga, they would join in a heartbeat given TV money, shared tournament shares (yes, the WCC shares most of their tournament shares, shares won predominately by Gonzaga), etc. I just think the BE10 will wait for a quality candidate to emerge locally first. St. Louis makes sense, but they have some ebbs and flows that makes them a potentially unreliable 11th.ramster wrote: ↑5 years ago There is like a dumb and dumber “million to one” “you mean there’s a chance” that Gonzaga would leave the West Coast Catholic School Conference for the East Coast Catholic School Conference. It’s not just the travel but the Time zone change to boot.
Just not enough of an advantage to leave long-standing rivalries to have to create new rivalries. But it sounds good to Big East fans and to sports writers.
St Louis goes to slot 11 imho.
Then you obviously have not been paying attention because they have had a number of top 10 and top 25 matchups over the last few years.NYGFan_Section208 wrote: ↑5 years ago I don't find the Big East that attractive WITH PC. Can't remember the last time I said, "big game tonight in the Big East, must check it out."
I agree with this - BE is a very good league but no must watch matchups. If they added for instance Dayton and IRI there would now be bad blood which I think the league needs.NYGFan_Section208 wrote: ↑5 years ago I don't find the Big East that attractive WITH PC. Can't remember the last time I said, "big game tonight in the Big East, must check it out."
Bad blood doesn't always sell nationally. Who cares about PC and URI besides the people who live in RI or are affiliated with either school? There have been plenty of matchups in the last 5 years featuring Top 10/25 teams, so while the average fan might not gain any interest in it, there has been plenty of national attention. If they are inviting any team for bad blood purposes, the move will be UCONN because of their prior history with the old BE7 and their potential to be a Top 25 team. Their issue has and will always be their football program. I've firmly been on board for several years for saying IDGAF about their football team because it's one football school against ten basketball schools, and if they left for a P5 school one day to chase football dreams, it doesn't destabilize the conference from a membership standpoint, but it's been a non-negotiable for the conference to date. We'll see what happens ...rhodylaw wrote: ↑5 years agoI agree with this - BE is a very good league but no must watch matchups. If they added for instance Dayton and IRI there would now be bad blood which I think the league needs.NYGFan_Section208 wrote: ↑5 years ago I don't find the Big East that attractive WITH PC. Can't remember the last time I said, "big game tonight in the Big East, must check it out."
Similar issue with the AAC. Goodish league (at least at the top) no teams that hate each other or any real great matchups that make must watch TV.
I think what we are seeing is the old conference USA team just aren’t that big of a draw (despite being good teams). This of course is shocking to no one who has a brain, conference USA had no appeal before those teams were taken.
Maybe so, but please name a couple in the last two years that you would consider 'must see'.woodennickel1 wrote: ↑5 years agoThen you obviously have not been paying attention because they have had a number of top 10 and top 25 matchups over the last few years.NYGFan_Section208 wrote: ↑5 years ago I don't find the Big East that attractive WITH PC. Can't remember the last time I said, "big game tonight in the Big East, must check it out."
UCONN has FBS Football and is not a Catholic and/or Private School - 2 strikessteviep123 wrote: ↑5 years ago My guess is the Big East 2.0 wants nothing to do with accommodating football even if only 1 team and 1 team only so that keeps UConn out.
I mean if Gonzaga was located in Texas and not Washington, it would be a no-brainer.
Sure it would be different if Gonzaga was in Texas. That’s two time zones closer. Flying the red eye is not easy or fun, especially for basketball players. 10 games all for the Big East would require more travel than today.rjsuperfly66 wrote: ↑5 years agoI mean if Gonzaga was located in Texas and not Washington, it would be a no-brainer.
Any team from a basketball-only conference would die to be in a conference like the Big East.
That's not being conceited, it comes from the fact that again this year, you have a team like PC playing 18 conference games and 9 of those are Q1 and another 6 are Q2 (as of right now anyway), and it's like that pretty much every year (and ironically, this is a "terrible" year for the Big East and that's what the breakdown looks like right now).
Some schools make a lot more sense than others, but if the Big East was the "Big West," the marriage would be instantaneous.
Gonzaga has remained in the WCC because there is not another basketball conference that has fully made sense.
The new wave model is that you are probably best off with 10 or 11, and getting guaranteed double round robin against quality teams, especially with the way the new quadrants work. The last thing you want is playing a team once and because you get a certain team at home, they are Q3 versus playing them on the road and them being Q2. What Conference USA did was smart in forcing the Top 5 teams in conference to play eachother twice, I think that is a genius scheduling tactic. The problem is, if your teams aren't very good, doesn't make a huge difference. The top 5 teams in Conference USA currently have NET's of 54, 77, 91, 132, 165. Not super helpful.Ramulous wrote: ↑5 years ago If St Louis leaves for the Catholic East, and UMass goes to AAC for football and rivalry with UConn......I would strongly explore the logistics of disbanding the current A10 in favor of the new A10...with certain core programs making up the new conference...and without LaSalle and Fordham....the jury is out on Duquesne as of now......and maybe GW being out
....I would add some of the teams to make up the 6 teams out.....UMass, StLou, Duquesne, LaSalle, Fordham, and GW gone.....add in teams mentioned by ramster above ...pay the departees their shares of NCAA money from the tournament shares earned while they were here....over a 3 year period...
Although some of those teams waiting to join the A10 have had success, none on that list will help this league reputation-wise. In my opinion.ramster wrote: ↑5 years ago A10 is a Basketball centric conference and has all sports with the exception that Football is played at the FCS Level represented by:
Colonial Athletic Conference - URI, Villanova, Richmond
Northeast Conference - Duquesne
Patriot League - Fordham
Pioneer League - Dayton, Davidson
UMASS plays FCS
The AAC is a FBS Football and Basketball Conference and was built for that purpose
I do not see the AAC and the A10 merging because of the difference in FBS Football
If the A10 loses St Louis to the BE and/or Dayton then there will be schools lined up to join the A10 - Albany, Stony Brook, Northeastern, Vermont, NJIT, College of Charleston, Hofstra, Delaware, Drexel, William and Mary, Iona, Quinippiac,
If the AAC loses a team or teams there are a number of schools that would want to join that have up and coming facilities for Basketball and/or for Football: Geogia State, Georgia Southern from the Sunbelt, Buffalo from the Mid-Amereican or any number of teams from that FBS Conference, any number of teams from Conference USA including Florida international, Old Dominion, North Texas, Louisiana Tech, Alabama Birmingham
The A10 and the AAC have plenty of candidates in waiting.
The argument for Siena would be the facilities (outside of geography). They play in the Times Union Center which from a size component would be one of the larger arenas in the A10 and has been updated in the last decade. Many of the other schools listed do not have easily upgraded facilities. They are playing mostly in arenas that hold less than 5k and that look and feel tired. Can you picture URI playing at Patrick Gym at UVM? I would think one venue looking like Rose Hill Gymnasium would be one too many, forget adding a second.section(105) wrote: ↑5 years ago ......some folks have suggested Sienna on that list to get into that Capital District market, for me neither Albany or Sienna offer much......
The feeling of this quote is correct, and while I always appreciate when Yankee Conference schools play each other, it wouldn't be the best basketball conference (though not the worst). UVM did build a new gym that opens this year I believe?rjsuperfly66 wrote: ↑5 years agoThe argument for Siena would be the facilities (outside of geography). They play in the Times Union Center which from a size component would be one of the larger arenas in the A10 and has been updated in the last decade. Many of the other schools listed do not have easily upgraded facilities. They are playing mostly in arenas that hold less than 5k and that look and feel tired. Can you picture URI playing at Patrick Gym at UVM? I would think one venue looking like Rose Hill Gymnasium would be one too many, forget adding a second.section(105) wrote: ↑5 years ago ......some folks have suggested Sienna on that list to get into that Capital District market, for me neither Albany or Sienna offer much......
Vermont has approved $95 million for a new sports complex for basketballrjsuperfly66 wrote: ↑5 years agoThe argument for Siena would be the facilities (outside of geography). They play in the Times Union Center which from a size component would be one of the larger arenas in the A10 and has been updated in the last decade. Many of the other schools listed do not have easily upgraded facilities. They are playing mostly in arenas that hold less than 5k and that look and feel tired. Can you picture URI playing at Patrick Gym at UVM? I would think one venue looking like Rose Hill Gymnasium would be one too many, forget adding a second.section(105) wrote: ↑5 years ago ......some folks have suggested Sienna on that list to get into that Capital District market, for me neither Albany or Sienna offer much......
Sure but their estimates are that the new place will be able to hold 3,200 for basketball. The images of the facility are nicer than the current set-up, but I wouldn't look at it and say "Wow, beautiful." If you can't make a computer diagram of your new facility look sexy, what do you think it's going to really look like?ramster wrote: ↑5 years ago
Vermont has approved $95 million for a new sports complex for basketball
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states ... orts-arena
I love Rose Hill...don't knock it!rjsuperfly66 wrote: ↑5 years agoThe argument for Siena would be the facilities (outside of geography). They play in the Times Union Center which from a size component would be one of the larger arenas in the A10 and has been updated in the last decade. Many of the other schools listed do not have easily upgraded facilities. They are playing mostly in arenas that hold less than 5k and that look and feel tired. Can you picture URI playing at Patrick Gym at UVM? I would think one venue looking like Rose Hill Gymnasium would be one too many, forget adding a second.section(105) wrote: ↑5 years ago ......some folks have suggested Sienna on that list to get into that Capital District market, for me neither Albany or Sienna offer much......