KeaneyBlue - The URI Basketball Forum

And Sandoval to the DL. If he's not the worst Red Sox signing ever he's damn close.

Wow...he might be the worst signing ever...for sure...at least in the discussion.

Upside is...with him on the DL, frees up a roster spot for someone potentially useful.

Who is this man on the mound for the Sox tonight...and what has he done with Rick Porcello?
Then again...who cares?

Hanley...throwing the leather around at 1st base. Good to see him fired up about playing.

When was the last time a team played 3 games in 3 days, with each starting multiple hours earlier than the previous one? 7PM, 4PM, 130PM, 11AM....

Oh those poor major league baseball players... it's too bad they don't have any time to catch their breath during these marathon 3+ hour games, right?

Baseball pitchers these days are the most pampered athletes around.
Pitch counts, and strolling around after every pitch.
Look up Warren Spahn.
At age 42, he was 23-7 and pitched 259 innings with 22 complete games!
He won 21 and 18 games the prior two years after turning 40
with 22 and 21 complete games and 262 and 269 innings.
Spahn could also hit and field his position.
He won 363 games, despite missing three years to
the military in WWll.
Think about all this and look at the
current day pitchers. Pampered poodles.

Pampered poodles for sure...the complete game has gone the way of the phone booth. You'd think that, with increased specialization, causing fewer complete games...that run scoring would be way down...but not sure that it is?

The thing I like most about baseball still tho is...not a TV watcher, except for sports and it's on almost every day...just thought it was odd they'd have three games consecutively earlier each day.

And, when was the last time the Red Sox were the 'best defensive team in the AL'?

The pitcher stamina thing, at least when Bill James looked at in the 1990s, was a combination of two things:

1) There's plenty of ancedotal evidence that pitchers from way-back-when didn't throw as hard, or at least, they didn't have to throw hard every pitch. This is partly because...

2) ... Even the #8 and #9 hitters on rosters now can plant a straight 85 to 90 MPH fastball in the stands. I mean, the game has always had dangerous sluggers in the 3 to 5 holes in the batting order. But there are way less "easy outs" in modern lineups, like your Mark Belangers.

Good points...those that can't hit the 85-90 fastball at a minimum, don't generally make it to the majors anymore...

I enjoy watching Jonathan Papelbon be bad at his job.

Good times, as Sox say Pablo is expected to miss the rest of the year after undergoing shoulder surgery: http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/15449 ... er-surgery

Now, if only Pablo could pull a Lackey. Folks were generally not upset at all when Lackey had to miss a year...but he rocked when he came back...

Team is looking great..Hanley throwing the leather around at first just fine...two bombs off Betances..one of the relievers I fear the most in baseball...Pedroia healthy....JBJ...best base-stealing team in the league (whaaaaat?)....unbelievable...I also love that Dave O'B is not afraid to talk about wins before they happen...it really is a new day. GO SOX!

I bet Red Sox can get protection from paying the entire salary out of their pocket, too. They will look to use salary insurance which normally kicks in when a player is lost for the season with a verifiable injury.

ATPTourFan wrote:I bet Red Sox can get protection from paying the entire salary out of their pocket, too. They will look to use salary insurance which normally kicks in when a player is lost for the season with a verifiable injury.

http://nypost.com/2016/05/03/red-sox-ar ... 7m-season/

Yep, I heard on the radio that they were not insured.
Will take the 'insurance that he won't play this year' as a plus anyway...

SGreenwell wrote:The pitcher stamina thing, at least when Bill James looked at in the 1990s, was a combination of two things:

1) There's plenty of ancedotal evidence that pitchers from way-back-when didn't throw as hard, or at least, they didn't have to throw hard every pitch. This is partly because...

2) ... Even the #8 and #9 hitters on rosters now can plant a straight 85 to 90 MPH fastball in the stands. I mean, the game has always had dangerous sluggers in the 3 to 5 holes in the batting order. But there are way less "easy outs" in modern lineups, like your Mark Belangers.

Even if you get away from just speed and velocity, how many teams bring back a guy on short-rest, even in a run to the postseason? The last one I can remember is CC in 2008 with the Brewers. He pitched a half-season with the Brewers and led the NL in complete games and shutouts. He pitched the last 3 games of the regular season on short rest, turning what would have been 2 starts into 3. The last game of the regular season, tied in the wild card, he went for a complete game victory to led the Brewers to the playoffs. Now pitchers are so protected, even in that scenario, it was CC who had to volunteer, his agent was against it, pleading for him not to do it, to protect his arm for free agency. Not even regular season, but in playoffs, why can't a pitcher go games 1, 4, and 7? In '14, Bumgarner went games 1, 5, and 7, but game 7 was in relief, although he did go 5 scoreless innings. There is so much value in protecting the arms of the pitchers, but despite all of their restrictions and protection, Tommy John surgeries and still around historical highs. Are their more TJ injuries now because players are more open and willing to reveal them because the success rate from surgery is still high, or because of other factors? When Daisuke was with the Sox, one of the things he said bothered him was the fact that he was forced to pitch a certain way on off-days, when he was throwing extrodinarily high pitch-count bullpens in Japan.

Papi...."4 more years"

rjsuperfly66 wrote:

SGreenwell wrote:The pitcher stamina thing, at least when Bill James looked at in the 1990s, was a combination of two things:

1) There's plenty of ancedotal evidence that pitchers from way-back-when didn't throw as hard, or at least, they didn't have to throw hard every pitch. This is partly because...

2) ... Even the #8 and #9 hitters on rosters now can plant a straight 85 to 90 MPH fastball in the stands. I mean, the game has always had dangerous sluggers in the 3 to 5 holes in the batting order. But there are way less "easy outs" in modern lineups, like your Mark Belangers.

Even if you get away from just speed and velocity, how many teams bring back a guy on short-rest, even in a run to the postseason? The last one I can remember is CC in 2008 with the Brewers. He pitched a half-season with the Brewers and led the NL in complete games and shutouts. He pitched the last 3 games of the regular season on short rest, turning what would have been 2 starts into 3. The last game of the regular season, tied in the wild card, he went for a complete game victory to led the Brewers to the playoffs. Now pitchers are so protected, even in that scenario, it was CC who had to volunteer, his agent was against it, pleading for him not to do it, to protect his arm for free agency. Not even regular season, but in playoffs, why can't a pitcher go games 1, 4, and 7? In '14, Bumgarner went games 1, 5, and 7, but game 7 was in relief, although he did go 5 scoreless innings. There is so much value in protecting the arms of the pitchers, but despite all of their restrictions and protection, Tommy John surgeries and still around historical highs. Are their more TJ injuries now because players are more open and willing to reveal them because the success rate from surgery is still high, or because of other factors? When Daisuke was with the Sox, one of the things he said bothered him was the fact that he was forced to pitch a certain way on off-days, when he was throwing extrodinarily high pitch-count bullpens in Japan.

CC is a good example, though. All that wear and tear on his arm, and his career was over at 32. The reason for the increased incidence of Tommy John and the injuries that require it is a result of all the torque guys put on the ball now throwing breaking pitches, not that they don't pitch enough. Pitching in modern baseball is just more demanding physically than it was 40 years ago. The guys are not weaker, they are just taxing their bodies at much greater levels.

I also suspect that thanks to modern medicine and training methods, some guys make to it to the Majors who, X years ago, would have washed out at a lower level for health reasons.

TruePoint wrote:

rjsuperfly66 wrote:

SGreenwell wrote:The pitcher stamina thing, at least when Bill James looked at in the 1990s, was a combination of two things:

1) There's plenty of ancedotal evidence that pitchers from way-back-when didn't throw as hard, or at least, they didn't have to throw hard every pitch. This is partly because...

2) ... Even the #8 and #9 hitters on rosters now can plant a straight 85 to 90 MPH fastball in the stands. I mean, the game has always had dangerous sluggers in the 3 to 5 holes in the batting order. But there are way less "easy outs" in modern lineups, like your Mark Belangers.

Even if you get away from just speed and velocity, how many teams bring back a guy on short-rest, even in a run to the postseason? The last one I can remember is CC in 2008 with the Brewers. He pitched a half-season with the Brewers and led the NL in complete games and shutouts. He pitched the last 3 games of the regular season on short rest, turning what would have been 2 starts into 3. The last game of the regular season, tied in the wild card, he went for a complete game victory to led the Brewers to the playoffs. Now pitchers are so protected, even in that scenario, it was CC who had to volunteer, his agent was against it, pleading for him not to do it, to protect his arm for free agency. Not even regular season, but in playoffs, why can't a pitcher go games 1, 4, and 7? In '14, Bumgarner went games 1, 5, and 7, but game 7 was in relief, although he did go 5 scoreless innings. There is so much value in protecting the arms of the pitchers, but despite all of their restrictions and protection, Tommy John surgeries and still around historical highs. Are their more TJ injuries now because players are more open and willing to reveal them because the success rate from surgery is still high, or because of other factors? When Daisuke was with the Sox, one of the things he said bothered him was the fact that he was forced to pitch a certain way on off-days, when he was throwing extrodinarily high pitch-count bullpens in Japan.

CC is a good example, though. All that wear and tear on his arm, and his career was over at 32. The reason for the increased incidence of Tommy John and the injuries that require it is a result of all the torque guys put on the ball now throwing breaking pitches, not that they don't pitch enough. Pitching in modern baseball is just more demanding physically than it was 40 years ago. The guys are not weaker, they are just taxing their bodies at much greater levels.

It's tough to say on CC, was his career over because of the wear and tear from pitching so much, or because he became extremely overweight and didn't he spend time in rehab? His velocity did drop about 4 mph from 2011 to 2014, from about 93 to around 89, but in spring training 2015, he was throwing low to mid 90s again. In the middle of July last year, he was still throwing 92-93. Now it's going back the other way on him, his averages are in the mid to high 80s, he's also almost 36. I don't watch a lot of Yankees baseball, just going off the numbers.

I do agree on the torque though. Some older pitchers could dominate throwing 90-95% fastballs. Nolan Ryan used to openly taunt guys that he would throw them only heat, and they would still strike out. Heat may go down slightly over time, but is a standard arm movement. Now many guys balance their pitches, some throw 4 or 5, not many guys who rely on one-pitch unless coming out of the bullpen.

But they've screwed it up ... They tried to limit little leaguers throwing 120 pitches every 2 days, they've set up pitch counts that have these kids limited into what they can throw, but injuries still happening at rapid rates.

RJ, to your point - One thing Keith Law or Will Carroll, the old injury expert at Baseball Prospectus, used to say is that kids are playing far less catch. Meaning, you have specialization from such a young age now that kids aren't building up the basic arm strength they used to. Once they hit 9 or 10, they're putting into pitcher or catcher or SS roles and not moved from them.

Papi...please....4 more years!!!!

JBJ...on flippn fire.....

Dave O'B...he's ok...but, not sure he makes anyone say, "Glad they got rid of Orsillo".

We all need more Eck.....

David Ortiz...having an outstanding season...but has absolutely no wheels left whatsoever, or maybe worse. It's almost a negative when you see him get a non-RBI base hit...because then he has to run the bases. And, it's not just that he's slower than (you name it), but there's the very real risk of additional heel/Achilles issues every single time...

Will be in St. Pete for the games next week - cheaper to fly to FL and see them at the Trop than to drive up to Fenway. Hoping they remember how to hit.

Oh well...on the upside....can't ever get enough Eck.

More slamball yee-ha. S Wright for ASG starter.

NYGFan_Section208 wrote:David Ortiz...having an outstanding season...but has absolutely no wheels left whatsoever, or maybe worse. It's almost a negative when you see him get a non-RBI base hit...because then he has to run the bases. And, it's not just that he's slower than (you name it), but there's the very real risk of additional heel/Achilles issues every single time...

Will be in St. Pete for the games next week - cheaper to fly to FL and see them at the Trop than to drive up to Fenway. Hoping they remember how to hit.

Oh well...on the upside....can't ever get enough Eck.

Now you can say you've seen the needle and the damage done

Some impressive talljacks tonite at Petco....

Espinoza for Pomeranz...thumbs up? thumbs down?

I'm sure they wanted Kopech......

NYGFan_Section208 wrote:Espinoza for Pomeranz...thumbs up? thumbs down?

It's not the worst trade they could have done, but man, the backfire potential is high. Young pitchers are the toughest to develop, but it cuts both ways, because pitching is volatile in general. Pomeranz first half could have been a fluke, Espinoza could blow out his arm, and suddenly it's a "who cares?" deal. Lot of potential outcomes, but the price seemed a tiny bit high to me.

SGreenwell wrote:

NYGFan_Section208 wrote:Espinoza for Pomeranz...thumbs up? thumbs down?

It's not the worst trade they could have done, but man, the backfire potential is high. Young pitchers are the toughest to develop, but it cuts both ways, because pitching is volatile in general. Pomeranz first half could have been a fluke, Espinoza could blow out his arm, and suddenly it's a "who cares?" deal. Lot of potential outcomes, but the price seemed a tiny bit high to me.

Because pitching is so volatile, I think I like it.. some were using Pedro comparisons for Espinoza, but for every potential Pedro, there's probably more Brien Taylors.

Going to try to get to Yankee Stadium tomorrow with my son...not looking forward to the commute. Thinking of driving to New Rochelle and taking the train in from there - anyone have other suggestions (from WK)?

Pomeroy 41144.....perhaps Rod will get this reference....

Stooges! Convict # 41144....that's it...Pomeranz' nickname shall be ==> "Percy"

NYGFan_Section208 wrote:
Because pitching is so volatile, I think I like it.. some were using Pedro comparisons for Espinoza, but for every potential Pedro, there's probably more Brien Taylors.

Going to try to get to Yankee Stadium tomorrow with my son...not looking forward to the commute. Thinking of driving to New Rochelle and taking the train in from there - anyone have other suggestions (from WK)?

I've gone there from both Stamford and New Haven. If you don't mind a longer train ride then either of those places might make the commute a little easier.

Get used to these types of trades from Dombrowski, this was his MO in Detroit.

I'd be a little worried about this one if I was a Sox fan. Pomeranz has basically been good for about 3 months. Obviously as others have said, especially with pitchers, this is all somewhat of a crap shoot but I could easily see Pomeranz struggling once he gets to Boston.

My other concern is workload.
Last year Pomeranz pitched 88 innings (was mostly in relief).
In 2014 he pitched 115 innings.
In 2013 he pitched 112 innings.
In 2012 he pitched 147 innings.
In 2011 he pitched 119 innings.
He's already over 100 innings this season.
Will he wear down at 175 innings?
200 innings?
225 innings?
He's on pace for 200 regular season innings + hopefully 2 or 3 postseason starts.
I guess it's a plus that he wont be a free agent until 2019, but that won't matter if he can't hack it in the AL East.
Steep price for an unknown entity.

Just signed Broome and Kopech on fire.....DD would not have pulled the trigger on this otherwise.

Need one more deal for an arm and this team could take off....tho I am far from convinced like I was with the 2013 bunch.

We can re sign Espinoza as a free agent down the line at market $$$ if he turns into Pedro....and we moved him to the NL which is good.

I'm all in with DD, let's ride and see where it goes.

I am not in on moving Yoan Moncada, Andrew Benintendi or Michael Kopech. Need to keep those 3 ponies in the stable.

I like the trade for some of the reasons in this article and:

Pomeranz was an All Star this year from a not very good San Diego team
He had 6 games he went 7 innings in this year and gave up 2,5,3,2,2,3 hits in those games - excellent
115 K's in 102 innings is solid
2.47 ERA great
Left handed
27 years old, 6'5", 240 lbs

Timing
Red Sox led all 30 teams in hitting at .292, they are the strongest hitting team in baseball
Only 2 games out, 5.5 ahead of Yankees
Porcello and Wright have been bettering than expected
MUST have another starter and Pomeranz should fit the bill

Yes Anderson Espinosa has potential and was rated #19 prospect BEFORE this season started
But have to give up something to get an All Star
At Greenville, only single A, Espinosa had 72K's in 75 innings - not as good as Pomeranz in big leagues
4.38 era with 5-8 won loss record
6'0" and 160 pounds

Sox HAD to have another starter and now have one. Still some great arms in minor league system

I like what DD is doing, especially compared to previous management







http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/bost ... ler-071416

Interesting timing
http://m.redsox.mlb.com/news/article/18 ... mph-pitch/

That and... https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/reds ... story.html

Absolutely, Jason Groome has lots of potential

Awesome trip to Yankee Stadium yesterday with my son. Long day trips are so much better when your team wins (see last year's St Joe's, Fordham, UMass hoop games). Nice to finally see the 'new' stadium and the Yankees scuffling. Taking the train (from New Haven) made it easy to get in and out.

NYGFan_Section208 wrote:Awesome trip to Yankee Stadium yesterday with my son. Long day trips are so much better when your team wins (see last year's St Joe's, Fordham, UMass hoop games). Nice to finally see the 'new' stadium and the Yankees scuffling. Taking the train (from New Haven) made it easy to get in and out.

Yes, and yesterday was their 6th straight win and Sox are now the hottest team in baseball. I love that Pomeranz is now added to the starting rotation too. I loved that Elsbury popped out in a clutch opportunity.

I have been to both the old and new Yankee Stadiums. Have made it a weekend trip the last few times. Stayed at the Stamford Hilton Saturday for a very cheap rate (it is business hotel that is very busy during the week but cuts rates on the weekend to entice people). It was not all that far from the train station which runs a Yankee Clipper Express train direct to a station a short walk to the park (actually on the other side of the old stadium which you walk through). Did NYC area type things on Sunday (Bronx Zoo, Manhattan) before returning.

ramster wrote:I like the trade for some of the reasons in this article and:

Pomeranz was an All Star this year from a not very good San Diego team
He had 6 games he went 7 innings in this year and gave up 2,5,3,2,2,3 hits in those games - excellent
115 K's in 102 innings is solid
2.47 ERA great
Left handed
27 years old, 6'5", 240 lbs

Timing
Red Sox led all 30 teams in hitting at .292, they are the strongest hitting team in baseball
Only 2 games out, 5.5 ahead of Yankees
Porcello and Wright have been bettering than expected
MUST have another starter and Pomeranz should fit the bill

Yes Anderson Espinosa has potential and was rated #19 prospect BEFORE this season started
But have to give up something to get an All Star
At Greenville, only single A, Espinosa had 72K's in 75 innings - not as good as Pomeranz in big leagues
4.38 era with 5-8 won loss record
6'0" and 160 pounds

Sox HAD to have another starter and now have one. Still some great arms in minor league system

I like what DD is doing, especially compared to previous management

Here's the thing though - What if the previous regime had done the rumored deals for Betts, Xander and JBJ that were rumored over the years? Instead, they erred on the side of just keeping prospects, which in hindsight was almost certainly the right decision. The issue I always have with dealing prospects is that because they're volatile, you don't know which ones will succeed. Guys suddenly put it together at 23, or a Single A adds 5 MPH and suddenly he's in the majors the next season, or a guy killing Triple A can't adjust to breaking stuff, etc.

As a result, I'd prefer to just keep them all, unless you're dealing for a proven, top-tier talent. (The Beckett deal, or when the Tigers acquired Cabrera, which I give credit to Dombrowski for pulling.) I don't think Pomeranz is that guy. I don't really think there will be a true ace available on the trade market this year, so I probably would have just preferred the Sox continuing to churn through the minor league and waiver wire options.

SGreenwell wrote:

ramster wrote:I like the trade for some of the reasons in this article and:

Pomeranz was an All Star this year from a not very good San Diego team
He had 6 games he went 7 innings in this year and gave up 2,5,3,2,2,3 hits in those games - excellent
115 K's in 102 innings is solid
2.47 ERA great
Left handed
27 years old, 6'5", 240 lbs

Timing
Red Sox led all 30 teams in hitting at .292, they are the strongest hitting team in baseball
Only 2 games out, 5.5 ahead of Yankees
Porcello and Wright have been bettering than expected
MUST have another starter and Pomeranz should fit the bill

Yes Anderson Espinosa has potential and was rated #19 prospect BEFORE this season started
But have to give up something to get an All Star
At Greenville, only single A, Espinosa had 72K's in 75 innings - not as good as Pomeranz in big leagues
4.38 era with 5-8 won loss record
6'0" and 160 pounds

Sox HAD to have another starter and now have one. Still some great arms in minor league system

I like what DD is doing, especially compared to previous management

Here's the thing though - What if the previous regime had done the rumored deals for Betts, Xander and JBJ that were rumored over the years? Instead, they erred on the side of just keeping prospects, which in hindsight was almost certainly the right decision. The issue I always have with dealing prospects is that because they're volatile, you don't know which ones will succeed. Guys suddenly put it together at 23, or a Single A adds 5 MPH and suddenly he's in the majors the next season, or a guy killing Triple A can't adjust to breaking stuff, etc.

As a result, I'd prefer to just keep them all, unless you're dealing for a proven, top-tier talent. (The Beckett deal, or when the Tigers acquired Cabrera, which I give credit to Dombrowski for pulling.) I don't think Pomeranz is that guy. I don't really think there will be a true ace available on the trade market this year, so I probably would have just preferred the Sox continuing to churn through the minor league and waiver wire options.

I totally get what you're saying, but...sometimes you have to take a chance...you can't always keep them all. There are folks getting paid pretty good ching to make that call, and as long as it seems like there's some discretion, I'm good with it...make a deal once in a while...I think this is a good one.

What I DON'T think is a good one is...why wait til Wednesday to pitch the new guy? I was there yesterday and as stoked as could be about Eddie's performance, but not sure why they didn't line up the pitching post-break to get the best guys up first. Like, why not Price Friday, Porcello yesterday and Percy today? Not sure what the thought process was there...or, if there was one...

SGreenwell wrote:

ramster wrote:I like the trade for some of the reasons in this article and:

Pomeranz was an All Star this year from a not very good San Diego team
He had 6 games he went 7 innings in this year and gave up 2,5,3,2,2,3 hits in those games - excellent
115 K's in 102 innings is solid
2.47 ERA great
Left handed
27 years old, 6'5", 240 lbs

Timing
Red Sox led all 30 teams in hitting at .292, they are the strongest hitting team in baseball
Only 2 games out, 5.5 ahead of Yankees
Porcello and Wright have been bettering than expected
MUST have another starter and Pomeranz should fit the bill

Yes Anderson Espinosa has potential and was rated #19 prospect BEFORE this season started
But have to give up something to get an All Star
At Greenville, only single A, Espinosa had 72K's in 75 innings - not as good as Pomeranz in big leagues
4.38 era with 5-8 won loss record
6'0" and 160 pounds

Sox HAD to have another starter and now have one. Still some great arms in minor league system

I like what DD is doing, especially compared to previous management

Here's the thing though - What if the previous regime had done the rumored deals for Betts, Xander and JBJ that were rumored over the years? Instead, they erred on the side of just keeping prospects, which in hindsight was almost certainly the right decision. The issue I always have with dealing prospects is that because they're volatile, you don't know which ones will succeed. Guys suddenly put it together at 23, or a Single A adds 5 MPH and suddenly he's in the majors the next season, or a guy killing Triple A can't adjust to breaking stuff, etc.

As a result, I'd prefer to just keep them all, unless you're dealing for a proven, top-tier talent. (The Beckett deal, or when the Tigers acquired Cabrera, which I give credit to Dombrowski for pulling.) I don't think Pomeranz is that guy. I don't really think there will be a true ace available on the trade market this year, so I probably would have just preferred the Sox continuing to churn through the minor league and waiver wire options.

I share this same opinion. I tend to lean towards keeping "elite/top" prospects, unless you are in a situation where you are getting a proven talent that is either going to make you a legit championship contender this year or is going to be a key part of a potential championship nucleus in the coming years. Acquiring Pomeranz for Espinoza accomplishes neither of these, as he (Pomeranz) is still too much of an unknown to acquire for your top pitching prospect. This trade may ultimately pan out as a Red Sox win (due to the volatility of prospect ranking) but, in my opinion, the risk trading your top top pitching prospect for someone who is not going to put you over the hump as championship contender is short-sighted.

SS, I get your point, but I think this may be the kind of rotation boost that does put them over the hump... We shall see. Percy's Weds start may be one of the most scrutinized in a while!