Game #16: St Louis - Tuesday Jan 7 @ 7pm ET

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Sweep The Leg
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Re: Game #16: St Louis - Tuesday Jan 7 @ 7pm ET

Unread post by Sweep The Leg »

bigappleram wrote:why do you guys expect an average at best perimeter shooting team to be an elite FT shooting team....those are expectations that will never be met. Given we aren't world beaters from the outside I would be more than happy with a team FT% hovering around 70%.
Because it's a 15ft shot without any defenders in center of the court. You have 10 seconds to shoot, so there isn't a rush. It's the easiest thing to do in the game which is why it frustrates me that our D1 scholarship athletes cannot do it. Don't tell it doesn't frustrate anyone else. I hear the collective groans every time we hit 1 of 2 or miss the front end of a one and one.

The whole being tired argument is exactly that, tired. So, it takes less energy to fight off screens to hit a jumper? Or drive the lane for a layup? Please.

And a free throw allows for imperfections. If you shoot short, but your form is good, you'll get the shooters bounce. If it's long, sometimes it will hit the backboard and sink in.

And practice will help. It 's called muscle memory. You hit it and do the same exact thing again.
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hrstrat57
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Re: Game #16: St Louis - Tuesday Jan 7 @ 7pm ET

Unread post by hrstrat57 »

Sweep The Leg wrote:
bigappleram wrote:why do you guys expect an average at best perimeter shooting team to be an elite FT shooting team....those are expectations that will never be met. Given we aren't world beaters from the outside I would be more than happy with a team FT% hovering around 70%.
Because it's a 15ft shot without any defenders in center of the court. You have 10 seconds to shoot, so there isn't a rush. It's the easiest thing to do in the game which is why it frustrates me that our D1 scholarship athletes cannot do it. Don't tell it doesn't frustrate anyone else. I hear the collective groans every time we hit 1 of 2 or miss the front end of a one and one.

The whole being tired argument is exactly that, tired. So, it takes less energy to fight off screens to hit a jumper? Or drive the lane for a layup? Please.

And a free throw allows for imperfections. If you shoot short, but your form is good, you'll get the shooters bounce. If it's long, sometimes it will hit the backboard and sink in.

And practice will help. It 's called muscle memory. You hit it and do the same exact thing again.

Hard to argue with this. I coached up to age 14 youth hoops and kids hit 65% all day, the better shooters even higher %. Had kids hitting the 3's all day too.

Granted they were not shooting into the black whole of a big arena with 5k peeps yelling at them.

Weren't elite athletes either....

On the flip side I wonder how many of us have shot fouls in a large venue at a clear back board. If you haven't I promise you it is a different beast.... Especially shooting with empty seats in the background.
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bigappleram
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Re: Game #16: St Louis - Tuesday Jan 7 @ 7pm ET

Unread post by bigappleram »

Sweep, Onyekaba could stand at the line for 20 seconds or 20 minutes and it wouldn't change the fact that his form is poor for a 15 foot shot. He could also shoot 1000 shots with that form and still likely only hit 500. Its form and focus, not muscle memory. Fatigue, the environment of the gym/shooting angle, and other factors detract from the focus aspect, but form is form. Either you have it or you don't.
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Sweep The Leg
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Re: Game #16: St Louis - Tuesday Jan 7 @ 7pm ET

Unread post by Sweep The Leg »

bigappleram wrote:Sweep, Onyekaba could stand at the line for 20 seconds or 20 minutes and it wouldn't change the fact that his form is poor for a 15 foot shot. He could also shoot 1000 shots with that form and still likely only hit 500. Its form and focus, not muscle memory. Fatigue, the environment of the gym/shooting angle, and other factors detract from the focus aspect, but form is form. Either you have it or you don't.
But, you can alter and perfect your form with practice. Good shooters know how much force and arc to use when at a particular area of the court. What's that called? Muscle memory.

So, you really think a player can't improve his shot? So, every good D1 player hit their very first outside shot at age 6 and never looked back?

C'mon man, we talking about practice....
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bigappleram
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Re: Game #16: St Louis - Tuesday Jan 7 @ 7pm ET

Unread post by bigappleram »

No of course I dont think there can't be improvement...but do you think practice practice practice can turn Iffy into an outside shooter? I respectfully disagree. Yes I bet that Jimmy Baron's first shot at age 6 had pretty dam near perfect form. I can only speak from personal experience, I was a good foul shooter at 8 and a bit better at 18, but i didn't go from atrocious to great. Good to better. So can Iffy become a 60% shooter with practice, sure...but he will never be in the 70-80 range I dont care if he shoots only FTs for the next year straight.

The key word in your post is "good shooters" -- so yes show me a good shooter on our team who struggles at the line? Our best "shooters" are X, EC and probably Gil. And guess what, they are also our best FT shooters. Our worst shooters are Biggie and Iffy, and guess what....
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adam914
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Re: Game #16: St Louis - Tuesday Jan 7 @ 7pm ET

Unread post by adam914 »

Lets not underestimate the mental aspect of it as well.
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Sweep The Leg
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Re: Game #16: St Louis - Tuesday Jan 7 @ 7pm ET

Unread post by Sweep The Leg »

I never said jump shot. I'm talking strictly free throws. And the two free throws the Big O took against the STL looked pretty good, like he had been practicing.

And our players are now not mentally tough?

I think we are over complicating free throws.
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bigappleram
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Re: Game #16: St Louis - Tuesday Jan 7 @ 7pm ET

Unread post by bigappleram »

agree, the mental part is the focus. and Sweep, form is form...whether its a jump shot or a set shot, most guys technique doesnt change a whole lot. Yes Iffy hit 2 in a row against SLU, i think that was the first time all season. not sure it is indicative of future results, i still saw bad arc and a knuckle ball thrown up there...but they went in.
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Re: Game #16: St Louis - Tuesday Jan 7 @ 7pm ET

Unread post by Sweep The Leg »

bigappleram wrote:agree, the mental part is the focus. and Sweep, form is form...whether its a jump shot or a set shot, most guys technique doesnt change a whole lot. Yes Iffy hit 2 in a row against SLU, i think that was the first time all season. not sure it is indicative of future results, i still saw bad arc and a knuckle ball thrown up there...but they went in.
I thought they actually looked better, maybe wishful thinking. I thought he hit his first two in the Maine game because I remember being thrilled that our big man could hit foul shots, but then he winded up being 5-10 for the game and wept openly.
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ace
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Re: Game #16: St Louis - Tuesday Jan 7 @ 7pm ET

Unread post by ace »

rodfromcranston wrote:Hmmm..... our neighbors to the North, are
the number ONE free throw shooting team in America.
Maybe Dan should ask Big Ed, what the secret is?
Besides having Bryce Cotton to shoot half their free throws,
that is.
Maybe Hurley should ask the 2010-2011 version of himself. He coached a team that shot 77% that year. Clearly he has forgotten how to coach guys to make free throws :)

By all reports, this team practices free throws the right way. Free throws are an easy thing to isolate and complain about, but it's just part of the bigger picture.
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Re: Game #16: St Louis - Tuesday Jan 7 @ 7pm ET

Unread post by Ramulous »

One of our posters here tutored Jimmy Baron on shooting free throws......I cannot remember who it was.....maybe he can be brought in to conduct a seminar on the proper techniques....
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Re: Game #16: St Louis - Tuesday Jan 7 @ 7pm ET

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Is it time for a GW thread?
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adam914
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Re: Game #16: St Louis - Tuesday Jan 7 @ 7pm ET

Unread post by adam914 »

theblueram wrote:Is it time for a GW thread?
Haha yeah, solid point.
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Re: Game #16: St Louis - Tuesday Jan 7 @ 7pm ET

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theblueram wrote:Is it time for a GW thread?
Was wondering the same thing.
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Re: Game #16: St Louis - Tuesday Jan 7 @ 7pm ET

Unread post by Running Ram »

I'd like to add to the free throw discussion, I agree the keys are form and focus, but one other important aspect of free throws (and jump shooting) is rhythm. Watch video of Larry Bird or Dennis Johnson shooting free throws, every free throw, exact same rhythm, you could set clocks or count off songs to them. One could understand how when the three aspects are on point it could be a muscle memory type of situation.
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Re: Game #16: St Louis - Tuesday Jan 7 @ 7pm ET

Unread post by section(105) »

Iffy can be taught to get more arc on the ball flights, therefore creating a greater % potential.
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Re: Game #16: St Louis - Tuesday Jan 7 @ 7pm ET

Unread post by ramfan85 »

'For what it's worth,"several years ago, I saw a story on tv about a high school coach who's team couldn't shoot free throws. He had them stand at the line for severals practices without a ball and mentally shoot the free throw. Supposedly, it helped.
I haven't heard of any other cases where this was tried.
UCH21377
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Re: Game #16: St Louis - Tuesday Jan 7 @ 7pm ET

Unread post by UCH21377 »

The guy that really scares me is Biggie. There is no way for him to be totally effective at the point if he can't shoot free throws. How can you have a point guard that has to removed at the end of games because of poor free throw shooting? You can't. He needs to fix it this summer.
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Re: Game #16: St Louis - Tuesday Jan 7 @ 7pm ET

Unread post by rambone 78 »

He can improve his FT shooting, but can he improve his handle and cut down on turnovers?

To me, those two things are the biggest issue with him. The thing about handle, is that by the time they are in college, what you see is what you're going to get. It's tough to improve that part of someone's game.

Making better decisions with the ball can and needs to improve also, for him to remain the starting PG next season, especially if Dan can bring in an impact PG.
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Re: Game #16: St Louis - Tuesday Jan 7 @ 7pm ET

Unread post by Ramulous »

I tried that mental thing with my sex life.....it didn't work :(
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Re: Game #16: St Louis - Tuesday Jan 7 @ 7pm ET

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Closed my eyes and pretended I was screwing Kate Upton. Didn't work either.....
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Re: Game #16: St Louis - Tuesday Jan 7 @ 7pm ET

Unread post by hrstrat57 »

UCH21377 wrote:The guy that really scares me is Biggie. There is no way for him to be totally effective at the point if he can't shoot free throws. How can you have a point guard that has to removed at the end of games because of poor free throw shooting? You can't. He needs to fix it this summer.

Rondo ha ha!
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Re: Game #16: St Louis - Tuesday Jan 7 @ 7pm ET

Unread post by adam914 »

rambone 78 wrote:He can improve his FT shooting, but can he improve his handle and cut down on turnovers?

To me, those two things are the biggest issue with him. The thing about handle, is that by the time they are in college, what you see is what you're going to get. It's tough to improve that part of someone's game.

Making better decisions with the ball can and needs to improve also, for him to remain the starting PG next season, especially if Dan can bring in an impact PG.
Biggie is only averaging 2.1 turnovers a game, thats actually pretty good for a PG. Bobby Hurley's sophomore year he averaged almost 4 per game (he did play more minutes per game). Chaz Williams, who is second in the country in assists per game, averages 3.2 turnovers a game. The majority of the Top 40 assist guys in the country average over 2 turnovers a game.

I don't think turnovers are Biggie's problem right now. I would like to see more assists though and in turn his assist to turnover ratio improve. Of course I've also seen him make a few very nice passes that ended in missed layups.
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Re: Game #16: St Louis - Tuesday Jan 7 @ 7pm ET

Unread post by Running Ram »

adam914 wrote: Of course I've also seen him make a few very nice passes that ended in missed layups.
yeah I bet he leads the nation in 'would be assists.'
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Re: Game #16: St Louis - Tuesday Jan 7 @ 7pm ET

Unread post by rambone 78 »

From what I hear Watson's going to clean up all those missed layups.

A guy that goes strong to the hoop. We don't have that right now.