2012's Rebuild vs. Today

[Rhody15]

“Mr 78, you ask a lot of questions.”
- Roxann Rosanna-Danna.



An old Saturday Night Live ref in case you are too young to have watched it.

I’d take Zek back -IF he can start to turn things around. Otherwise, I would reconsider keeping him or not. The same applies to Weston, imho.

Not sure about others yet.

You’d take Weston back if he can turn things around, but you’re not sure about proven commodities in House and Kortright?

Interesting logic there.

As I said in a few posts above in clear language…

I have not gotten to the others yet. Did I ever say I was a no on any of them in that post. No. So, go F off. Not dealing with your petty bullcrap tonight.

lol you’re about as soft as our defense.

[Jdrums#3]

You’d take Weston back if he can turn things around, but you’re not sure about proven commodities in House and Kortright?

Interesting logic there.

As I said in a few posts above in clear language…

I have not gotten to the others yet. Did I ever say I was a no on any of them in that post. No. So, go F off. Not dealing with your petty bullcrap tonight.

lol you’re about as soft as our defense.

Like I said…and this is for the last time with you…F off.

[Billyboy78]

He talks about the defense here.

Well, if guard quickness is the problem with the defense, that's not going to change this year.

did he mention (lack of) quickness?

Listen to Koch's question at about 2:45.

[NYGFan_Section208]

Well, if guard quickness is the problem with the defense, that's not going to change this year.

did he mention (lack of) quickness?

Listen to Koch's question at about 2:45.

yep, I was kidding. Thought he hammered that point pretty good..

[Billyboy78]

did he mention (lack of) quickness?

Listen to Koch's question at about 2:45.

yep, I was kidding. Thought he hammered that point pretty good..

But.....these are his players. Can't blame that on Cox.

[reef]

I am still thinking we win 5-6 more regular season games and finish 8-10 or 9-9.
That was pretty much what I predicted early on, and I would be okay with it.

As discussed previously our 3 freshmen (Dubs really hasn't played) have been a pleasant surprise and made a large impact. Keeping them along with some of our other core players will be imperative.

With all that said I expect a huge jump in year 3 for Archie, not unlike what Hurley did in 14-15.

The only way we make a big jump is if our guys learn how to defend or he gets some upgrades. If we bring back most of the team and add Hammond and Farrell, I think we will be better, but not an NCAA-level team. Which is what I expected when we hired him..I think we are a year behind, and we won't make that big jump until year 4 or 5. I hope i'm wrong..

This is where I am also , I thought we have shown more improvement than we have @ this point in year 2 and I was thinking maybe NIT in year 3 or bubble which I don’t think will happen unless something drastic happens

[rambone 78]

At this level if you're not quick enough to stay in front of your man on defense, then there's no future for them here.

Archie recruited them. That's a major failure on his part.

Finding out after the fact is no bueno.

[Jdrums#3]

Which leads to another question. Which guys on the current roster should Archie prioritize to keep here? Do we want both House and Luis back? Or just one of them? Do we want Zek back? Brandon? Etc?...

I would want Louis, House, Fuchs, Cam, Foumena, Zek, Green back for sure. Probably need Brown to sub Foumena for now.

I would agree with those 7/8.

Agreed, Jersey. The freshman getting playing time are a no brainer to keep, imho.

If it was my call as of today, I would keep Luis, House, Green, Bilau ( IF he can get healthy, play and wants to stay another year) just for front court depth behind the young bigs or Brown if he is okay with backing up the young bigs ( but I wouldn’t keep both Bilau and Brown ).

Maybe keep Connor one more year IF he is developing in practice, that is. Shooting is tough to come by for us it seems and right now we have no new shooters coming in so, I’d give Connor a bit more rope.

Zek and Weston stand out to me. They are the most frustrating, disappointing and puzzling to me because my expectations for them were higher. Unfortunately, neither can seem to put it together consistently. IF either or both finished the season strong then keeping one or both would help.

Do the older players I referenced above want to stay ? I have no idea - especially with the uncertainty around the transfer sit-out rule. Anyway, my priority would be on retaining the young players first.

Good, thoughtful questions again, 78.

[McRam]

The sooner we can get rid of Zek, the better. Defensively I see him as lliability. Reaching, not getting in the right position, looking for blocks instead of positioning correctly, etc. Surely, athletic enough, but missing any kind of defensive mindset.

Also, as much as I like Luis, he is not a full time point guard due to his defensive limitations. Unless we think Ben will play most of the point guard minutes, we need another point guard. Unless Always can develop some offense, he is not the answer.

I remain positive on Weston(maybe because he is one of the few that plays defense). He really does not get many minutes so offensive consistency is very difficult.

Dubsky to lower level.

[Jdrums#3]

Good stuff, McRam.

Good point on Luis. Although I do like that he can be clutch. I would rather see more pt go to Cam however, if the backcourt is crowded.

I hate giving up on Connor’s 3 point shooting after one season. But I have no clue if he is progressing in practice enough to stick here. If he is, I’d give him one more year.

Hopefully, Zek can get back on track and finish the season strong - including playing better D as you aptly posted. IF he can then I’d be okay with him staying.

Weston has value. I am just hoping he can provide value consistently.

That all said, I have no idea if there will be upgrades considering us in the portal at the end of the season. If there are, then that changes things.

Good discussion.

[steveystuds06]

The sooner we can get rid of Zek, the better. Defensively I see him as lliability. Reaching, not getting in the right position, looking for blocks instead of positioning correctly, etc. Surely, athletic enough, but missing any kind of defensive mindset.

Also, as much as I like Luis, he is not a full time point guard due to his defensive limitations. Unless we think Ben will play most of the point guard minutes, we need another point guard. Unless Always can develop some offense, he is not the answer.

I remain positive on Weston(maybe because he is one of the few that plays defense). He really does not get many minutes so offensive consistency is very difficult.

Dubsky to lower level.

Ya I would love to see Archie play Weston over Zek for a few games. Give him the leash Zek has. It may be the spark we need on the defensive end and he's not bad on the offensive end either.

I really like Luis but I agree we need an upgrade at that position. A better two-way point.I don't think you can just give the keys to Hammond and play him heavy minutes. I think we need to bring on another older guard. But if it's still Luis that's not terrible.

[PeterRamTime]

GIVE FOU MORE MINUTES

He is LAST in minutes per game in the regular rotation, averaging 13.8 per game.

Fou has only scored SEVEN less points than Fuchs, even though Fuchs has played 114 more minutes! He has scored FIFTY more points than Tyson with FORTY less minutes. He has nine more rebounds than Tyson.

He has a higher FG% than them and averages less turnovers per game. He ranks THIRD in pts per 40 minutes on the team 18.8 per game. Averages 12.2 rebounds per 40 minutes. 1st in blocks.

Can one of those media ppl please ask Archie to explain? He is objectively better than Brown by every measure available. Fuchs is better at rebounding and....that's it. He was a CLEAR mismatch against Mason and rode the bench the whole game! Insanity! Never seen a player as good as Fou get so few minutes and he's 6'11!!! You got a 6'11 dude that plays harder than anyone on the court, is athletic, can make jump shots, 3's, isn't more of a liability on defense by any advanced statistic and can't get on the court.

Remember when he only played 16 minutes against UNH with only like 3 minutes in the second half even though he had a double double in the first half? He wasn't just benched for the rest of that game inexplicably, he was benched for the next three freaking games following that performance lolol and now that he's finally getting some minutes he has outplayed the other two for 5 games in a row.

The dude isn't perfect and he's had struggles, but he's rated our 3rd best player and he gets the least minutes. Wild.

[NYGFan_Section208]

Listen to Koch's question at about 2:45.

yep, I was kidding. Thought he hammered that point pretty good..

But.....these are his players. Can't blame that on Cox.

Hmm...you noticed that, too?

[steveystuds06]

GIVE FOU MORE MINUTES

He is LAST in minutes per game in the regular rotation, averaging 13.8 per game.

Fou has only scored SEVEN less points than Fuchs, even though Fuchs has played 114 more minutes! He has scored FIFTY more points than Tyson with FORTY less minutes. He has nine more rebounds than Tyson.

He has a higher FG% than them and averages less turnovers per game. He ranks THIRD in pts per 40 minutes on the team 18.8 per game. Averages 12.2 rebounds per 40 minutes. 1st in blocks.

Can one of those media ppl please ask Archie to explain? He is objectively better than Brown by every measure available. Fuchs is better at rebounding and....that's it. He was a CLEAR mismatch against Mason and rode the bench the whole game! Insanity! Never seen a player as good as Fou get so few minutes and he's 6'11!!! You got a 6'11 dude that plays harder than anyone on the court, is athletic, can make jump shots, 3's, isn't more of a liability on defense by any advanced statistic and can't get on the court.

Remember when he only played 16 minutes against UNH with only like 3 minutes in the second half even though he had a double double in the first half? He wasn't just benched for the rest of that game inexplicably, he was benched for the next three freaking games following that performance lolol and now that he's finally getting some minutes he has outplayed the other two for 5 games in a row.

The dude isn't perfect and he's had struggles, but he's rated our 3rd best player and he gets the least minutes. Wild.

He's also second on the team behind BIlau in PER. 1. Bilau 2. Fou 3. Green 4. Fuchs ... Now that may go down if he played more minutes because, as we know, he can make many mistakes. From what Archie has been saying, it seems like Brown has worked his ass off and stands out in practice. I think he rewards the players that bust their ass in practice. I'm not saying Foumena isn't doing this, but that's the vibe I got from his interviews. At this point, who cares? Winning matters. Fou is a much better player than Brown. Play him.

I think Fuchs is a better defender and a smarter player right now. Our team looked terrible when Fuchs was out. Fuchs and Fou could be a very very good frontcourt in a year or two. I hope they both stick around.

[Jersey77]

This past off season, I was one of the most cautious ones here.

Now it is a little ironic that I am feeling a little more optimistic than many here going into next season, considering we keep this roster pretty much intact.
I can see Bilau calling it quits with all his injury issues, and next season would be his 6th.
Rory getting no-run may decide to move on.
That would open 2 spots for the recruits.

Obviously, losing only 2 players is highly unlikely in this day and age plus our situation, but still, I would be okay with keeping everyone else.
An extra year working with the staff and the additional experience of Div. 1 basketball will greatly benefit the younger players.

Again if Archie feels he can upgrade some positions, I am good with that also.

[Billyboy78]

Many comments here include the phrase 'if they stick around'. Therein lies the problem.

[Rhody15]

Many comments here include the phrase 'if they stick around'. Therein lies the problem.

Unfortunately can say that about program, football or basketball, high mid or low major.

My favorite example to use is in college football.

Ole Miss won 11 games this season, most in its history.

They have their very good QB coming back along with the number 1 ranked portal class.

12 team playoff, they’ll be among the favorites to make it.

Their sophomore RB has started this season and last. Cleared 1000+ yards, 10+ TDs both years with ease. One of the best players in America and a sure fire draft pick.

With the reasons I listed above, you’d think no brainer he’d stay right?

Up and left for a bigger pay day at Ohio St.

[NYGFan_Section208]

Many comments here include the phrase 'if they stick around'. Therein lies the problem.

Unfortunately can say that about program, football or basketball, high mid or low major.

My favorite example to use is in college football.

Ole Miss won 11 games this season, most in its history.

They have their very good QB coming back along with the number 1 ranked portal class.

12 team playoff, they’ll be among the favorites to make it.

Their sophomore RB has started this season and last. Cleared 1000+ yards, 10+ TDs both years with ease. One of the best players in America and a sure fire draft pick.

With the reasons I listed above, you’d think no brainer he’d stay right?

Up and left for a bigger pay day at Ohio St.

I don't see it as a no-brainer in that case at all...Ole Miss will have a shot next year because it's expanded CFP.
Ohio State has a shot every year, expanded or not. I agree it's still elite level, and I think Kiffin is one of the gnarliest coaches out there, but that move seems like an upgrade in both pay, prominence and playoff likelihood, to me

[Rhody15]

Many comments here include the phrase 'if they stick around'. Therein lies the problem.

Unfortunately can say that about program, football or basketball, high mid or low major.

My favorite example to use is in college football.

Ole Miss won 11 games this season, most in its history.

They have their very good QB coming back along with the number 1 ranked portal class.

12 team playoff, they’ll be among the favorites to make it.

Their sophomore RB has started this season and last. Cleared 1000+ yards, 10+ TDs both years with ease. One of the best players in America and a sure fire draft pick.

With the reasons I listed above, you’d think no brainer he’d stay right?

Up and left for a bigger pay day at Ohio St.

I don't see it as a no-brainer in that case at all...Ole Miss will have a shot next year because it's expanded CFP.
Ohio State has a shot every year, expanded or not. I agree it's still elite level, and I think Kiffin is one of the gnarliest coaches out there, but that move seems like an upgrade in both pay, prominence and playoff likelihood, to me

Ohio St has their starter back, TreVeon Henderson.

Jenkins won’t be the clear cut guy like Ole Miss.

I agree OSU is the bigger and better program, but man, Jenkins had it all at Ole Miss.

[PeterRamTime]

GIVE FOU MORE MINUTES

He is LAST in minutes per game in the regular rotation, averaging 13.8 per game.

Fou has only scored SEVEN less points than Fuchs, even though Fuchs has played 114 more minutes! He has scored FIFTY more points than Tyson with FORTY less minutes. He has nine more rebounds than Tyson.

He has a higher FG% than them and averages less turnovers per game. He ranks THIRD in pts per 40 minutes on the team 18.8 per game. Averages 12.2 rebounds per 40 minutes. 1st in blocks.

Can one of those media ppl please ask Archie to explain? He is objectively better than Brown by every measure available. Fuchs is better at rebounding and....that's it. He was a CLEAR mismatch against Mason and rode the bench the whole game! Insanity! Never seen a player as good as Fou get so few minutes and he's 6'11!!! You got a 6'11 dude that plays harder than anyone on the court, is athletic, can make jump shots, 3's, isn't more of a liability on defense by any advanced statistic and can't get on the court.

Remember when he only played 16 minutes against UNH with only like 3 minutes in the second half even though he had a double double in the first half? He wasn't just benched for the rest of that game inexplicably, he was benched for the next three freaking games following that performance lolol and now that he's finally getting some minutes he has outplayed the other two for 5 games in a row.

The dude isn't perfect and he's had struggles, but he's rated our 3rd best player and he gets the least minutes. Wild.

He's also second on the team behind BIlau in PER. 1. Bilau 2. Fou 3. Green 4. Fuchs ... Now that may go down if he played more minutes because, as we know, he can make many mistakes. From what Archie has been saying, it seems like Brown has worked his ass off and stands out in practice. I think he rewards the players that bust their ass in practice. I'm not saying Foumena isn't doing this, but that's the vibe I got from his interviews. At this point, who cares? Winning matters. Fou is a much better player than Brown. Play him.

I think Fuchs is a better defender and a smarter player right now. Our team looked terrible when Fuchs was out. Fuchs and Fou could be a very very good frontcourt in a year or two. I hope they both stick around.

I think Fou may not be far behind him in thw defensive category, mostly by virtue if his size, but when was the last time we had a 6'11 true freshman play this well? Almost never. Dude has a crazy high ceiling for an A-10 center.

[PeterRamTime]

Unfortunately can say that about program, football or basketball, high mid or low major.

My favorite example to use is in college football.

Ole Miss won 11 games this season, most in its history.

They have their very good QB coming back along with the number 1 ranked portal class.

12 team playoff, they’ll be among the favorites to make it.

Their sophomore RB has started this season and last. Cleared 1000+ yards, 10+ TDs both years with ease. One of the best players in America and a sure fire draft pick.

With the reasons I listed above, you’d think no brainer he’d stay right?

Up and left for a bigger pay day at Ohio St.

I don't see it as a no-brainer in that case at all...Ole Miss will have a shot next year because it's expanded CFP.
Ohio State has a shot every year, expanded or not. I agree it's still elite level, and I think Kiffin is one of the gnarliest coaches out there, but that move seems like an upgrade in both pay, prominence and playoff likelihood, to me

Ohio St has their starter back, TreVeon Henderson.

Jenkins won’t be the clear cut guy like Ole Miss.

I agree OSU is the bigger and better program, but man, Jenkins had it all at Ole Miss.

What happened with Judkins is, Ole Miss started throwing big NIL money to these big time transfers. Money that they weren't giving to him and he bailed. Ole Miss also had two transfers from Tennesee bail and go to Louisville instead because they couldn't keep their NIL promises to them. Ole Miss is going all in on 2024 so they're just throwing money around recklessly.

[PeterRamTime]

There were also whispers that Judkins was a bad teammate but...meh who knows. Guys still do leave for a bigger pay day, but not all.

Either way, us winning and getting as much support as we can for our NIL collective is a must so we can acquire and maintain talent.

[reef]

GIVE FOU MORE MINUTES

He is LAST in minutes per game in the regular rotation, averaging 13.8 per game.

Fou has only scored SEVEN less points than Fuchs, even though Fuchs has played 114 more minutes! He has scored FIFTY more points than Tyson with FORTY less minutes. He has nine more rebounds than Tyson.

He has a higher FG% than them and averages less turnovers per game. He ranks THIRD in pts per 40 minutes on the team 18.8 per game. Averages 12.2 rebounds per 40 minutes. 1st in blocks.

Can one of those media ppl please ask Archie to explain? He is objectively better than Brown by every measure available. Fuchs is better at rebounding and....that's it. He was a CLEAR mismatch against Mason and rode the bench the whole game! Insanity! Never seen a player as good as Fou get so few minutes and he's 6'11!!! You got a 6'11 dude that plays harder than anyone on the court, is athletic, can make jump shots, 3's, isn't more of a liability on defense by any advanced statistic and can't get on the court.

Remember when he only played 16 minutes against UNH with only like 3 minutes in the second half even though he had a double double in the first half? He wasn't just benched for the rest of that game inexplicably, he was benched for the next three freaking games following that performance lolol and now that he's finally getting some minutes he has outplayed the other two for 5 games in a row.

The dude isn't perfect and he's had struggles, but he's rated our 3rd best player and he gets the least minutes. Wild.

Yeah no doubt 13.8 minutes per game is a joke for Fou needs to be avg over 20 minutes per game !

[jcru]

Surprisingly, I'm going to agree with Jersey here.

I don't think wholesale changing out the entire roster like last year is the way to go. They have the two players coming in, one is going to make an immediate impact and the other will make an inevitable impact, maybe try to get 2 more players and go with that. Try to keep anyone who is any good or has the potential to be good, like Fou and Fuchs.

I would even be very hesitant about letting go of Zek, unless he makes it absolutely clear that he just doesn't want to be here anymore. There is a ton of potential that we have seen in there. Someone mentioned him going elsewhere and blowing up. I could totally see that happen.

If he said he was going to keep Brown, I wouldn't be upset with that. In fact, I don't think I would be upset with just about anyone staying. It wouldn't even shock me if players like Rory or Always stayed.

Just because the team, as a whole, aren't doing well this year, doesn't automatically mean that they are going to suck next year. I harken (there's a $64 word!) back to the Al Skinner days, where no one thought much of our talent one year, brought back almost the entire team, or literally the entire team the following year, and they were greatly improved. I don't think you can build anything if you are constantly starting from square one every year.

[Rhodymob05]

Watched some of the Oklahoma game recently. Reggie Miller had a relevant quote (paraphrasing), “nothing beats experience” when talking about the veterans on the 2018 team.

[McRam]

I am also very high on Fou’s ceiling. My current concerns are related to his strength and his easy loss of balance. Is he currently strong enough to play a primary role as the 5. Did he work on his strength during his red shirt year and get stronger? He also seems to be foul prone and loses some minutes on the court due to this.

Interesting to think of Fuchs and Fou on the court together. Will that work? Are they both really limited to play only the 5? Can either of them play defense away from the basket?

I hope Archie gives Fou enough playing time for the rest of the season or he would likely become a portal candidate!

[Jersey77]

I am also very high on Fou’s ceiling. My current concerns are related to his strength and his easy loss of balance. Is he currently strong enough to play a primary role as the 5. Did he work on his strength during his red shirt year and get stronger? He also seems to be foul prone and loses some minutes on the court due to this.

Interesting to think of Fuchs and Fou on the court together. Will that work? Are they both really limited to play only the 5? Can either of them play defense away from the basket?

I hope Archie gives Fou enough playing time for the rest of the season or he would likely become a portal candidate!

Both Fou and Fuchs will continue to improve as they keep getting more experience.

Still too early to tell but both may be able to play at the same time down the road, depending upon the matchups.
The game will continue to slow down for them, so who knows, and I think both have the ability to step outside the paint.

I definitely want them to stick.

[steveystuds06]

Watched some of the Oklahoma game recently. Reggie Miller had a relevant quote (paraphrasing), “nothing beats experience” when talking about the veterans on the 2018 team.

They also said that when we played Duke, and we got destroyed, haha. But I agree. A team like ours needs some veteran players and continuity.

[theblueram]

I am also very high on Fou’s ceiling. My current concerns are related to his strength and his easy loss of balance. Is he currently strong enough to play a primary role as the 5. Did he work on his strength during his red shirt year and get stronger? He also seems to be foul prone and loses some minutes on the court due to this.

Interesting to think of Fuchs and Fou on the court together. Will that work? Are they both really limited to play only the 5? Can either of them play defense away from the basket?

I hope Archie gives Fou enough playing time for the rest of the season or he would likely become a portal candidate!

We had Hass and Cyril play the 5 together. Those guys get beat up down low. Always need two of them.

[reef]

Be nice if Fou and Fuchs can hit outside shots that would open them up to be able to play together

[bigappleram]

Be nice if Fou and Fuchs can hit outside shots that would open them up to be able to play together

I think 100% you want to keep both

Offensively both have impressed in different ways and have bright futures

In terms of playing together it’s all about the defensive end with Fuchs. Can he cover a fast undersized 4 like you typically see in the A10 or even with PC (Hopkins)? This year the answer is he struggles in that dept. Foot speed and spatial awareness are lacking. Some of that could get better. But for now I’d go with Fuchs in short spurts at the 4 and mostly keep him at the 5. With rest of the 5 minutes given to Fou.

[Jersey77]

Now that our season is officially over, we can revisit this and compare.
In Hurley's 2nd year we were 14-18 (5-12) actually very close to how we ended up this season.

The biggest question will be in year 3 DH won 23 games and 13-5 A10 (tied 2nd)
He had E.C, Martin, Biruta, and TJ returning plus added Jared and Jarvis.

Unless Archie becomes a miracle worker, I don't think we can make that big of a jump.
I don't see us having those quality players coming back and can our recruits make that same kind of immediate impact.

I know when this thread started quite a few thought that a rebuild can happen much faster in today's landscape.
I wonder if that is still the case.
So where does that put us now?

This off-season will be huge as to not only what our roster will look like in 24-25 but the development of our returning players and their improvement and of course the immediate impact of our newcomers.

[reef]

Agree , we definitely seem to be behind where DH was @ the same point
This is a crucial off-season as I don’t think we will match DH 23 wins in year 3 , right now if we can finish over .500 that will be OK

[Rhodymob05]

I’m a big believer in Foumena, his size and athleticism and passion. Maturing will be key.

[Jersey77]

Agree , we definitely seem to be behind where DH was @ the same point
This is a crucial off-season as I don’t think we will match DH 23 wins in year 3 , right now if we can finish over .500 that will be OK

I think that is what many were originally hoping for this season.
After year 3 and be around .500 or slightly higher would be below what several would have expected or wanted.

I am probably more patient than most, so for me I am willing to wait a little longer to see us contend.

If we keep our core veterans and add some key pieces along with our recruits, I expect major improvement next season and for us to be competitive.

[reef]

Yeah I was wrong so far I thought year 2 would be a decent jump in wins to a floor of 14 to maybe about 19 and we got 12
Then year 3 I was thinking bubble to NiT
I was way off