Conference Realignment

[Jersey77]

Nah the A10 is terrible.

It's not jealousy, it's anger because those were A10 programs, the best of which was a A10 member for almost 2 decades. And our leadership - who for some reason is still in place - did a horrendous job in incentivizing them to stay, finding suitable replacements, or being inventive enough to thrive in the re-alignment era. While other conferences that we were similar to or ahead of, surpass us.

Yeah our good teams need to do a better job in the OOC, but you can't tell me that our bubble teams - Dayton the last 2 years and 4 years ago, St Louis the last 2 years, VCU 2 and 4 years ago, Richmond 5 years ago, etc - they'd all be in with better metrics aka having really bad conference teams on their schedule.

I didn't look too deep across the conference - but those examples represent at a minimum $16M to the conference that we lost out on because having horrendous Q3 and Q4 teams on their schedule.

This "awesome" new TV contract didn't release any financial data - only the "trust us it's a HUGE increase" tagline.

And then remember that number has to be split now 15 times, and I'm sure soon 16 times since there's no shortage of historically underfunded, underperforming programs the battleaxe is thirsty to add to our conference.

We're in the midst of a steady decline, from a high of 6 in 2015 (coming off the wave of having a top flight conference with Butler and Xavier), to 3 for 4 years, then down to 2 for the subsequent 3 years, and now we're a 1 bid league - both last year and probably this year as well.

That's not the definition of a good conference. That's a 1 bid. Who cares if our conference ranking is top 10 if you can only get 1 team with a double digit seed into the dance? It's like a Baron team - good enough for some excitement, but not good enough to accomplish anything meaningful.

Blue Man I know we will always disagree on this issue and of course Loyola.

Don't get hung up on the financials because neither of us were involved with that decision nor are we accountable for the balance sheet.
I don't think the presidents and AD's were totally ignorant to all the facts and of course they weighed all the pluses against the negatives. We didn't sit in on those meetings, so we have to trust their judgement and it seemed to be a very easy one for them.

Teams leave and we never had the money or the drawing power of the BE blue-blood programs to keep them.

So many conferences have been affected and poached, shit happens.

The P12 is gone, they arrogantly declined an ESPN $30M/school contract even after UCLA and USC decided to leave.
The B12 loses top programs Texas and Oklahoma to the B10.
Then they poach the AAC who in turn poaches the C-USA, etc, etc.

Just because the "unanimous" voting is what the public sees, doesn't mean that's the reality.

The financials are really all that matter because that's why re-alignment is happening.

I dislike the defeatist attitude that "we never had the money or drawing power" to keep programs.

The Catholic 7 was dogshit. Villanova looked like they were coming down to Earth. Marquette lost Buzz Williams, PC was trash. Seton Hall was middling average. St Johns was irrelevant. Georgetown was a perpetual NCAA flame-out. DePaul is Fordham.

The best program in the new Big East was Xavier. An A10 school. The 2nd best add was Butler, an A10 school at the time.

We had the programs - any inventive leader could've thrown a multitude of offers about restructuring the NCAA payouts, the scheduling, etc - OR GONE AND PITCHED A BETTER TV CONTRACT OPTION TO BRING IN MORE MONEY TO THE CONFERENCE.

But we did not.

And this is less about Loyola, and far more about La Salle, Duquesne, Fordham, and George Mason who've contributed nothing but still exist here.

You make it sound so easy and are dismissing the relevance of basketball centric programs like Villanova, Marquette, Georgetown, PC, and St. Johns.
Of course, Xavier and Butler were going to bolt along with Creighton once given the opportunity, nothing was going to change that.
The whole situation for them made perfect sense, the deal was on the table, and that is how it played out.

Everything else is pure made-up speculation, that didn't have any legs.

We can keep rehashing the past and trying to recreate make believe, but it all happened and now we have to move on.

[PeterRamTime]

My only hope is we are good enough to perhaps get an invite to some other conference in the future.

Which is also why I felt it was so important to get David Green eligible to dig us out of this rutt as soon as possible. Be good as fast as possible so you don't get left behind in this mess.

[section(105)]

My only hope is we are good enough to perhaps get an invite to some other conference in the future.

Which is also why I felt it was so important to get David Green eligible to dig us out of this rutt as soon as possible. Be good as fast as possible so you don't get left behind in this mess.

Yeah. We are more likely headed to some new version of the America East level, with other northeast state schools than we going up to BE or similar level.

[Jdrums#3]

Latest on Big East expansion talk Val Ackerman:
https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=5a1c72a8 ... BocA&ntb=1

"Nothing on the horizon at this point. A number of schools have approached us about being part of the Big East. Our presidents, at this point, have not wanted to add schools. So, we stay at 11. It's really as simple as that."

"It would take the right school to add," Ackerman added. "And you want it to be for all the right reasons, including what they add from a basketball standpoint, is their school mission in line with our other schools? How does the financial piece of it work out? So, for now, the decision our board has made has been to stay at 11."

Also states that Gonzaga rumors have quieted down.

As we know, things can also change come March/April.

Smart move by the NBE. They get it that smaller, like-minded and competitive (except for DePaul for some reason) is better for a basketball centric conference.

If the A10 is going to stay as is - with so many mouths to feed, so to speak- and thrive, then all the programs better get on board from a basketball commitment perspective to get back to a 3-4 bid conference, imho. Because it just makes no sense to me to have so many teams in a one bid - 2 bids if you get lucky - conference.

I would rather see the A10 contract ( by encouraging non-committed schools to leave somehow) or see like-minded mbb programs - from a basketball commitment perspective - break off but as more and more time passes, that happening does not appear likely, unfortunately.

[RhowdyRam02]

Agreed - the Big East understands that the more mouths you have to feed, the less for everyone else.

They are in a position of strength and they nailed realignment. 10 programs that are all good/good enough, high level arenas, investments, and programs that care about basketball.

For some reason DePaul still gets to ride the conference coattails, but they do give the Big East a recruiting foothold in Chicago. I'm sure they'd love to trade DePaul for a Dayton - but I'm sure Xavier doesn't want the recruiting battle 45 mins to the north.

Otherwise, every single program in the Big East has been to the NCAA at least twice since realignment. They've won more games than I could bother to count, 4 final fours and 3 national championships.

Yes Blue Man it is very easy to be jealous of them and what they have accomplished.
We have been the basketball red-headed stepchild to them.

But for what we are the A10 isn't so terrible.
The teams just need to do a better job in the OOC and take advantage of the opportunities and avoid those dreaded losses.

Yes, key words are “for what we are……”. Just need to be better where we are, take are of that, be poised and flexible for reacting to any conference changes. I have to think any moves for us will be a step down, not up. I am sure this is very distasteful to many here, but think this is the path down the road. No?

As long as we insist on doing nothing about the anchor schools hanging around our neck, yes everything will be a step down. Either a consistent one bid A10 or a move to the America East. A future where the Ryan Center is a white elephant instead of an advantage.

Or, we could have some vision and form a new conference with programs that actually care about basketball

[RhowdyRam02]

Yes Blue Man it is very easy to be jealous of them and what they have accomplished.
We have been the basketball red-headed stepchild to them.

But for what we are the A10 isn't so terrible.
The teams just need to do a better job in the OOC and take advantage of the opportunities and avoid those dreaded losses.

Nah the A10 is terrible.

It's not jealousy, it's anger because those were A10 programs, the best of which was a A10 member for almost 2 decades. And our leadership - who for some reason is still in place - did a horrendous job in incentivizing them to stay, finding suitable replacements, or being inventive enough to thrive in the re-alignment era. While other conferences that we were similar to or ahead of, surpass us.

Yeah our good teams need to do a better job in the OOC, but you can't tell me that our bubble teams - Dayton the last 2 years and 4 years ago, St Louis the last 2 years, VCU 2 and 4 years ago, Richmond 5 years ago, etc - they'd all be in with better metrics aka having really bad conference teams on their schedule.

I didn't look too deep across the conference - but those examples represent at a minimum $16M to the conference that we lost out on because having horrendous Q3 and Q4 teams on their schedule.

This "awesome" new TV contract didn't release any financial data - only the "trust us it's a HUGE increase" tagline.

And then remember that number has to be split now 15 times, and I'm sure soon 16 times since there's no shortage of historically underfunded, underperforming programs the battleaxe is thirsty to add to our conference.

We're in the midst of a steady decline, from a high of 6 in 2015 (coming off the wave of having a top flight conference with Butler and Xavier), to 3 for 4 years, then down to 2 for the subsequent 3 years, and now we're a 1 bid league - both last year and probably this year as well.

That's not the definition of a good conference. That's a 1 bid. Who cares if our conference ranking is top 10 if you can only get 1 team with a double digit seed into the dance? It's like a Baron team - good enough for some excitement, but not good enough to accomplish anything meaningful.

Blue Man I know we will always disagree on this issue and of course Loyola.

Don't get hung up on the financials because neither of us were involved with that decision nor are we accountable for the balance sheet.
I don't think the presidents and AD's were totally ignorant to all the facts and of course they weighed all the pluses against the negatives. We didn't sit in on those meetings, so we have to trust their judgement and it seemed to be a very easy one for them.

Teams leave and we never had the money or the drawing power of the BE blue-blood programs to keep them.

So many conferences have been affected and poached, shit happens.

The P12 is gone, they arrogantly declined an ESPN $30M/school contract even after UCLA and USC decided to leave.
The B12 loses top programs Texas and Oklahoma to the B10.
Then they poach the AAC who in turn poaches the C-USA, etc, etc.

Yes Blue Man, the presidents and ADs are always right and you just don't know all the facts. Just like they were right about Duquesne. Just like they were right about Fordham. Just like they were right about La Salle. Just like...

[RhowdyRam02]

Yes Blue Man it is very easy to be jealous of them and what they have accomplished.
We have been the basketball red-headed stepchild to them.

But for what we are the A10 isn't so terrible.
The teams just need to do a better job in the OOC and take advantage of the opportunities and avoid those dreaded losses.

Yes, key words are “for what we are……”. Just need to be better where we are, take are of that, be poised and flexible for reacting to any conference changes. I have to think any moves for us will be a step down, not up. I am sure this is very distasteful to many here, but think this is the path down the road. No?

Problem is, it is hard to keep everyone happy.
There are just so many really good quality programs, so you do the best you can in trying to reload.

You don't have to reload. You don't have to expand. You can stand pat. You don't have to accept every school that comes calling

[Jdrums#3]

Yes Blue Man it is very easy to be jealous of them and what they have accomplished.
We have been the basketball red-headed stepchild to them.

But for what we are the A10 isn't so terrible.
The teams just need to do a better job in the OOC and take advantage of the opportunities and avoid those dreaded losses.

Yes, key words are “for what we are……”. Just need to be better where we are, take are of that, be poised and flexible for reacting to any conference changes. I have to think any moves for us will be a step down, not up. I am sure this is very distasteful to many here, but think this is the path down the road. No?

As long as we insist on doing nothing about the anchor schools hanging around our neck, yes everything will be a step down. Either a consistent one bid A10 or a move to the America East. A future where the Ryan Center is a white elephant instead of an advantage.

Or, we could have some vision and form a new conference with programs that actually care about basketball

Your last sentence above, 02, hits the nail on the head for me.

We (the A10) need visionaries to move us forward. Is the battleaxe a visionary - one that can present and sell/convince/encourage the school administrators on a vision to move forward ?

I am not confident she can based on how the conference has regressed to a 1-2 bid NCAAT conference while also adding schools.

[RhowdyRam02]

She is not. She's been in charge for 16 years and has done nothing while this regression took place.

Look at something as simple as flex scheduling at the end of the regular season where you group teams based on NET or standings position for the final few games hoping you can improve the resumes of the top schools for Selection Sunday. We didn't even need to invite the idea, we just needed to see other conferences do it and say hey, that could help us. Instead, business as usual.

We're stuck in the business model of 15-20 years ago even as the latest round of conference realignment has made that model obsolete. Add as many schools as you can and focus on TV markets, even though large conferences don't make sense unless you're a top football conference and even as TV market value has never been weaker.

We need a new leader for the conference with real vision. Or we need to start getting used to the idea of Rhode Island in the America East

[section(105)]

So, back to what I mentioned earlier, is out current President and AD these visionaries? Doubt it.

[Rhody15]

So, back to what I mentioned earlier, is out current President and AD these visionaries? Doubt it.

...you doubt that Parlange and Thorr are visionaries after all the money that just went into Archie and the basketball program, along with the massive facility upgrades we're getting?

[section(105)]

So, back to what I mentioned earlier, is out current President and AD these visionaries? Doubt it.

...you doubt that Parlange and Thorr are visionaries after all the money that just went into Archie and the basketball program, along with the massive facility upgrades we're getting?

Committing to the program is one thing. A totally different animal is leading others down a path to envision a new/better league not just seeing but doing the work to make happen.

[Jersey77]

Yes, key words are “for what we are……”. Just need to be better where we are, take are of that, be poised and flexible for reacting to any conference changes. I have to think any moves for us will be a step down, not up. I am sure this is very distasteful to many here, but think this is the path down the road. No?

Problem is, it is hard to keep everyone happy.
There are just so many really good quality programs, so you do the best you can in trying to reload.

You don't have to reload. You don't have to expand. You can stand pat. You don't have to accept every school that comes calling

You can stand pat, but that wasn't what the membership wanted.
I think they are selective and felt that Loyola was their best fit, aside from a couple of posters here, everyone agreed with that addition.

[NHRamFan]

If you aren't moving forward, you're falling behind.

[RhodyKyle]

So, back to what I mentioned earlier, is out current President and AD these visionaries? Doubt it.

...you doubt that Parlange and Thorr are visionaries after all the money that just went into Archie and the basketball program, along with the massive facility upgrades we're getting?

Committing to the program is one thing. A totally different animal is leading others down a path to envision a new/better league not just seeing but doing the work to make happen.

I absolutely believe they're visionaries by your definition. I would think the massive investment in basketball that R15 mentioned is a dog whistle bull horn to the other schools if talks are starting to heat up showing we're players looking to improve and by the time realignment happens again we'll hopefully be back to a top program in the sport.

[KeaneyTheChemist]

For the people that want Duquense, LaSalle, and Fordham out of the A10 as they are a liability to the strength of schedule and overall quality of conference play, where would you want them to be placed in? I really don't think the American East is an option since they are not actively engaged in expansion of their basketball programs.

[Rhody15]

For the people that want Duquense, LaSalle, and Fordham out of the A10 as they are a liability to the strength of schedule and overall quality of conference play, where would you want them to be placed in? I really don't think the American East is an option since they are not actively engaged in expansion of their basketball programs.

Patriot League

[RhowdyRam02]

For the people that want Duquense, LaSalle, and Fordham out of the A10 as they are a liability to the strength of schedule and overall quality of conference play, where would you want them to be placed in? I really don't think the American East is an option since they are not actively engaged in expansion of their basketball programs.

I don't really care, that wouldn't be our problem. But the Patriot League for Fordham and the MAAC or NEC for Duquesne and La Salle are where those schools actually belong

[PeterRamTime]

Maybe CAA for Duquesne, Ford and LA Salle.

[steviep123]

For the people that want Duquense, LaSalle, and Fordham out of the A10 as they are a liability to the strength of schedule and overall quality of conference play, where would you want them to be placed in? I really don't think the American East is an option since they are not actively engaged in expansion of their basketball programs.

I don't really care, that wouldn't be our problem. But the Patriot League for Fordham and the MAAC or NEC for Duquesne and La Salle are where those schools actually belong

LaSalle was about to move to the Patriot a few years ago then changed their minds. I wish they had.

[RhowdyRam02]

Maybe CAA for Duquesne, Ford and LA Salle.

One thing with the CAA is if Duquesne or Fordham get admitted they would automatically be allowed to join CAA football. The other problem for those three schools is the main CAA conference seems to be skewing more and more south. It's a possibility, just some extra things to think about

[RhowdyRam02]

For the people that want Duquense, LaSalle, and Fordham out of the A10 as they are a liability to the strength of schedule and overall quality of conference play, where would you want them to be placed in? I really don't think the American East is an option since they are not actively engaged in expansion of their basketball programs.

I don't really care, that wouldn't be our problem. But the Patriot League for Fordham and the MAAC or NEC for Duquesne and La Salle are where those schools actually belong

LaSalle was about to move to the Patriot a few years ago then changed their minds. I wish they had.

Honestly, with the financial difficulties that school has faced I'm shocked the Patriot League was considering them. That would be best for everyone though

[rambone 78]

The A10 refuses to drop teams.

The only alternative is to break away and form a new conference.

Doubt it will happen, especially with a major NCAA shakeup looming in the not too distant future.

[wakefield]

How about the top 7 teams play in their own division of the A10?

[section(105)]

How about the top 7 teams play in their own division of the A10?

Just asking, how would he top 7 be defined/determined? What happens to the rest of the teams? Are you saying the top 7 would be the only ones qualified for conference tourney.

[wakefield]

Average NET rankings over the last 3 years will determine the top teams and the teams in the top division will stay the same for 5 years or so. Maybe the A10 adds a few teams so there will be two lower divisions determined by their location. All teams can still qualify for the tournament.

Top division teams will play teams in their division twice and have 6 games against other A10 teams.

[NYGFan_Section208]

Average NET rankings over the last 3 years will determine the top teams and the teams in the top division will stay the same for 5 years or so. Maybe the A10 adds a few teams so there will be two lower divisions determined by their location. All teams can still qualify for the tournament.

Top division teams will play teams in their division twice and have 6 games against other A10 teams.

If you suck for a prolonged period of time...can you get relegated to the lower division?

[wakefield]

Yes

[RhowdyRam02]

It's at least something that might help the top teams have better resumes. My first thought is I wouldn't lock it in for any amount of time, the top and lower can change every year. I would also weight the NET, so your NET in year 3 counts once, year 2 counts twice, and your NET the year before counts 3 times when doing an average. For instance, and I'm just using KenPom numbers here because it's easier to see past numbers. So when coming up with the weighted NET for URI when making the 2024-25 conference schedule:

URI 2021-22 = 132
URI 2022-23 = 255 x 2 = 510
URI 2023-24 = 184 x 3 = 552

Total is 1194, divide by 6 equals a weighted NET of 199

One problem I can see is there's the chance that if you start in the lower division it could be incredibly hard to move to the upper division, I'm not totally sure how that would work

[wakefield]

The A10 tournament results might play a factor on which teams are in the top division.

[section(105)]

Interesting approach. Different for sure.

[Jdrums#3]

Average NET rankings over the last 3 years will determine the top teams and the teams in the top division will stay the same for 5 years or so. Maybe the A10 adds a few teams so there will be two lower divisions determined by their location. All teams can still qualify for the tournament.

Top division teams will play teams in their division twice and have 6 games against other A10 teams.

Wakefield, Not sure if it’s a solution but I like the out-of-the-box thinking.

Excellent discussion point, too!

Do you you think 5 years may be too long in this transfer portal era ?

What if you added an incentive of a higher share of tourney credits to the top group ? Thoughts ?

I like the idea of limiting the damage the non-committed programs / minimal investing programs can inflict on the more committed programs without having to jettison them from the conference. Therefore, they can stay but with the understanding that they will not share in all of the benefits unless they change course and commit / invest.

[adam914]

It could work even as just a way of making the conference schedule each year. I know others have mentioned that before, where the better teams play each other more. It doesn't even need to be divisions necessarily. Didn't CUSA or someone do something like that?

[Jdrums#3]

It could work even as just a way of making the conference schedule each year. I know others have mentioned that before, where the better teams play each other more. It doesn't even need to be divisions necessarily. Didn't CUSA or someone do something like that?

Although, Adam, I like the idea of divisions because being relegated to the lower division may have an embarrassing effect and perhaps get certain programs off their ass and start investing.

I would hope it would, anyway.

Good stuff.

[wakefield]

Average NET rankings over the last 3 years will determine the top teams and the teams in the top division will stay the same for 5 years or so. Maybe the A10 adds a few teams so there will be two lower divisions determined by their location. All teams can still qualify for the tournament.

Top division teams will play teams in their division twice and have 6 games against other A10 teams.

Wakefield, Not sure if it’s a solution but I like the out-of-the-box thinking.

Excellent discussion point, too!

Do you you think 5 years may be too long in this transfer portal era ?

What if you added an incentive of a higher share of tourney credits to the top group ? Thoughts ?

I like the idea of limiting the damage the non-committed programs / minimal investing programs can inflict on the more committed programs without having to jettison them from the conference. Therefore, they can stay but with the understanding that they will not share in all of the benefits unless they change course and commit / invest.

5 years might be too long of a period of time
How about the team which goes to the tournament gets more money and everyone else get a equal amount.

[section(105)]

It's at least something that might help the top teams have better resumes. My first thought is I wouldn't lock it in for any amount of time, the top and lower can change every year. I would also weight the NET, so your NET in year 3 counts once, year 2 counts twice, and your NET the year before counts 3 times when doing an average. For instance, and I'm just using KenPom numbers here because it's easier to see past numbers. So when coming up with the weighted NET for URI when making the 2024-25 conference schedule:

URI 2021-22 = 132
URI 2022-23 = 255 x 2 = 510
URI 2023-24 = 184 x 3 = 552

Total is 1194, divide by 6 equals a weighted NET of 199

One problem I can see is there's the chance that if you start in the lower division it could be incredibly hard to move to the upper division, I'm not totally sure how that would work

Wonder how this concept would have played out for all league teams over the three years? My guess it URI would be in the lower division?

[NYGFan_Section208]

It's at least something that might help the top teams have better resumes. My first thought is I wouldn't lock it in for any amount of time, the top and lower can change every year. I would also weight the NET, so your NET in year 3 counts once, year 2 counts twice, and your NET the year before counts 3 times when doing an average. For instance, and I'm just using KenPom numbers here because it's easier to see past numbers. So when coming up with the weighted NET for URI when making the 2024-25 conference schedule:

URI 2021-22 = 132
URI 2022-23 = 255 x 2 = 510
URI 2023-24 = 184 x 3 = 552

Total is 1194, divide by 6 equals a weighted NET of 199

One problem I can see is there's the chance that if you start in the lower division it could be incredibly hard to move to the upper division, I'm not totally sure how that would work

Wonder who this concept would have played out for all league teams over the three years? My guess it URI would be in the lower division?

relegated?

[ramster]

[reef]

Yeah DePaul is god god awful ! Fire that coach !

[Obadiah]

This thread has gone way off the rails. Besides engaging is fantasy scenarios, we focus on dumping on the A-10, McGlade, Loyola and ridding the conference of some members. People in glass houses should never throw stones.

[Jersey77]

This thread has gone way off the rails. Besides engaging is fantasy scenarios, we focus on dumping on the A-10, McGlade, Loyola and ridding the conference of some members. People in glass houses should never throw stones.

Gee Obadiah you are making a little too much sense. You would think we should be more concerned about getting our own shit together than be worried, find fault, or place blame on everyone else.

[RF1]

This thread has gone way off the rails. Besides engaging is fantasy scenarios, we focus on dumping on the A-10, McGlade, Loyola and ridding the conference of some members. People in glass houses should never throw stones.

Agreed. Would think all the problems we presently have in Kingston would be more than enough to keep people occupied. Furthermore, we have a far better chance of actually effecting improvement here than elsewhere across the league.

[PCFriars]

Yeah DePaul is god god awful ! Fire that coach !

The DePaul situation is broken. It’s concerning that they are actually spending money on the program and remain stuck in the same vicious circle. They built a really nice new arena and cycled through multiple coaches. No one seems to know how to get the thing out of the gutter, and even worse, no one really seems to care.

[Rhodymob05]

Of course this guy wants to take the A10s best and replace the Big East’s worst. So annoying.

[Rhody15]

Of course this guy wants to take the A10s best and replace the Big East’s worst. So annoying.

He’s not wrong though.

[rambone 78]

They wont drop DePaul.

But they might add one more to make it 11 teams and do a 20 game league schedule.

[ramster]

They wont drop DePaul.

But they might add one more to make it 11 teams and do a 20 game league schedule.

Rambone
Big East is already at 11 teams and they already play a 20 game schedule. Happened when they added UCONN from the AAC

[rambone 78]

Oops. Must have been in an alternate universe lol.

[PCFriars]

I believe Xavier remains a significant obstacle to the BE adding Dayton. If they were to expand I think Saint Louis would be the most likely candidate.

[Jersey77]

I believe Xavier remains a significant obstacle to the BE adding Dayton. If they were to expand I think Saint Louis would be the most likely candidate.

Hard to believe that SLU would move the needle enough for the BE.
Besides most of the SLU fans aren't happy with Travis Ford.