Conference Realignment

[Obadiah]

If they can never fill a 4300 seat arena...and have 17K students and Rhody averages more than than their total capacity....I think it's pretty safe to say, "their students don't care." What else can you call that?

The Loyola arena can hold more than 4300 and this is supported by the fact that on numerous occasions in recent years game attendance has been over 4900.

Also on November 26, URI in a furious comeback, defeated, Yale 76-72, before 3,511 fans, Several nights later on Dec. 2, Loyola trounced Harvard ( (who easily handled URI in a scrimmage) 75-53 before 3,754. Using your logic, "is it pretty safe to say that URI students don't care. What else can you call that?

Loyola attendance is nothing to brag about, but making exaggerations about it - "if they can never fill a 4300 seat arena" - doesn't serve anyone.

[PeterRamTime]

Loyola can be a valuable program

However, the fact that they have like zero fans as soon as they have a bad season after they:

Made a final four run in 17-18

Regular season title and NIT in 18-19

21-11 season (covid) 19-20

Sweet 16 in 20-21

And an NCAA appearance in 21-22


Kind a red flag...I mean last year they were truly awful..but still. Feels like a toss up whether or not they'll get the magic back.

[section(105)]

Loyola can be a valuable program

However, the fact that they have like zero fans as soon as they have a bad season after they:

Made a final four run in 17-18

Regular season title and NIT in 18-19

21-11 season (covid) 19-20

Sweet 16 in 20-21

And an NCAA appearance in 21-22


Kind a red flag...I mean last year they were truly awful..but still. Feels like a toss up whether or not they'll get the magic back.

……..and they have Sister Jean

[Rhody15]

Loyola can be a valuable program

However, the fact that they have like zero fans as soon as they have a bad season after they:

Made a final four run in 17-18

Regular season title and NIT in 18-19

21-11 season (covid) 19-20

Sweet 16 in 20-21

And an NCAA appearance in 21-22


Kind a red flag...I mean last year they were truly awful..but still. Feels like a toss up whether or not they'll get the magic back.

……..and they have Sister Jean

99.9% of college programs are all based on the coach.

Past history is great, but most every program needs a coach,

[Blue Man]

If they can never fill a 4300 seat arena...and have 17K students and Rhody averages more than than their total capacity....I think it's pretty safe to say, "their students don't care." What else can you call that?

The Loyola arena can hold more than 4300 and this is supported by the fact that on numerous occasions in recent years game attendance has been over 4900.

Also on November 26, URI in a furious comeback, defeated, Yale 76-72, before 3,511 fans, Several nights later on Dec. 2, Loyola trounced Harvard ( (who easily handled URI in a scrimmage) 75-53 before 3,754. Using your logic, "is it pretty safe to say that URI students don't care. What else can you call that?

Loyola attendance is nothing to brag about, but making exaggerations about it - "if they can never fill a 4300 seat arena" - doesn't serve anyone.

To be fair - Yale was during the week of thanksgiving when students had left.

Loyola, in the midst of a winning season, is averaging 2653 people in the building. So by this argument, what must’ve been one of Loyola’s biggest home games was barely more than one of our worst with students not on campus and people likely traveling for Thanksgiving.

I’m not sure why we’re celebrating a team that sometimes has gone over capacity to a level that would be below average for URI across a season.

Similar amount of people on campus, larger enrollment, in a city with 2.7 million people and public transportation options that brings you to bars and the arena for some reason can’t draw more people than a smaller school in the middle of farmland where a majority of the people live at least 20 mins from campus with zero public transportation options or dining/entertainment available.

We are not the same and the A10 should be trying to distance themselves from these type of programs, not adding them.

And my bad about confusing MVC and Horizon - I think it goes to my larger point about teams that can’t even dominate those meaningless 1 bid leagues aren’t the teams we desperately need to add.

[section(105)]

Question. Is there any sense that there is on behalf of the current URI President, Athletics Administration any dissatisfaction with the current makeup of the A-10 and looking to act and move to some exit or realignment action? Just asking.

[Obadiah]

The question is does the attached link support Blue Man's assertion about Loyola:

"Their students don't care. Their adult fans don't care. They don't exist.”

“No basketball players really want to go there. No fans really want to go there either”

And just how does URI 's Soloviev facility compare to Norville and '"they don't care" Loyola attitude.

https://rdgusa.com/work/project/loyola- ... e-facility

[Jersey77]

Like I said before Loyola's arena size and their attendance isn't my concern, last I looked I am not in charge of their financial budget or bottom line.
I would just like to see them competitive in our conference.

They have invested in their program and opened up the $18.5M Alfie Norville practice facility in 2019.
The were also willing to compensate Porter Moser $2.2M/year (10 years) to stay.

Also, we were looking to expand the Midwest footprint especially in Chicago, and now have presence in 3 of the 4 largest media markets.
That certainly was a major reason for their unanimous acceptance into the A10, plus the committee knew it would help hasten and be beneficial in the new media contract negotiations, which it did.
That contract was also unanimously approved by the President's Council.

It is extremely doubtful that the top tier A10 programs will break away to form a new conference, I don't think there has been any serious conversations to that effect with those school's leaders.
Besides some of those schools may be looking for something bigger, possibly the BE.
UMass is probably looking to join a football conference at some point in the near future.
The A10 administration and council wanted to position itself in the best possible situation going forward and was looking for the best fit available. Loyola fit that bill for them and was overwhelmingly accepted by all the member schools.

[RhowdyRam02]

Sorry, Blue Man, while I respect your opinion on this subject I don’t think we will ever agree on this.

You dismiss size of school as unimportant factor using PC as an example, totally ignoring the key point that PC has enjoyed the advantage for the last 50 years of playing in a better conference whose media grants alone gives more money to support their program. A mixed metaphor at best.

You dismiss any Loyola BB achievements as quirks and refer to their playing in a “soft mid major conference” who you misidentify as the Horizon when in fact it was the Missouri Valley. BTW the MVC schools today and in the past have been very good programs and most of their BB facilities are far larger than what is found in the A-10.

Also, you dump on the Loyola arena as too small, but have no trouble with the College of Charleston who has similar size arena as a possible new A-10 member. Is the implication here that the CAA is a non-soft mid major and the CofC fan base is so much bigger than Loyola?

Finally, when you make dogmatic statements like the following you lose me, since you have no evidence to back up these statements

“Their students don't care. Their adult fans don't care. They don't exist.”

“No basketball players really want to go there. No fans really want to go there either”

Come on you should know better.

They average less fans than UMass even though they're located in the middle of Chicago. That's the definition of not having a fan base. That's the definition of students and adult fans not caring. They don't exist.

They've made 4 tournament appearances since the 1968-69 basketball season, so yes, any success they've had is a quirk. And if basketball players actually wanted to go there they'd have a lot more than four tournament appearances in 54 opportunities.

Fordham Chicago was a terrible addition and it's time for people to realize that

[RhowdyRam02]

If they can never fill a 4300 seat arena...and have 17K students and Rhody averages more than than their total capacity....I think it's pretty safe to say, "their students don't care." What else can you call that?

The Loyola arena can hold more than 4300 and this is supported by the fact that on numerous occasions in recent years game attendance has been over 4900.

Also on November 26, URI in a furious comeback, defeated, Yale 76-72, before 3,511 fans, Several nights later on Dec. 2, Loyola trounced Harvard ( (who easily handled URI in a scrimmage) 75-53 before 3,754. Using your logic, "is it pretty safe to say that URI students don't care. What else can you call that?

Loyola attendance is nothing to brag about, but making exaggerations about it - "if they can never fill a 4300 seat arena" - doesn't serve anyone.

I'm sorry, that's a dogshit comparison. The URI game you're using as an example was during Thanksgiving weekend. There's a massive difference between comparing a game on Thanksgiving weekend to a Saturday afternoon game when there were no major conflicts

[Obadiah]

And my bad about confusing MVC and Horizon - I think it goes to my larger point about teams that can’t even dominate those meaningless 1 bid leagues aren’t the teams we desperately need to add.

I wouldn’t confuse the MVC with the Horizon and denigrate them as a meaningless one bid league. Big difference between those two conferences. BTW, since you place big emphasis on size of arena, it is interesting to note that when it comes to facilities, the MVC schools are way above that of the A-10 as seen by the following:

Bradley U. 	    Carver Arena	11,060
Southern Illinois   Banterra Center	 8,264
Missouri State	    JPH Arena	        11,000
Indiana State	    Hulman Center	 9,000
Belmont	            Curb Event Center    5,000
Drake U.	    Knapp Center	 6,424
Illinois State	    CEFCU Arena	        10,200
Evansville U. 	    Ford Center	        11,000
Northern Iowa       Macleod Center	 6,500
Valparaiso U.       ARC	                 5,000
UIC	            CU 1 Arena	         8,000

[Obadiah]

Like I said before Loyola's arena size and their attendance isn't my concern, last I looked I am not in charge of their financial budget or bottom line.
I would just like to see them competitive in our conference.

They have invested in their program and opened up the $18.5M Alfie Norville practice facility in 2019.
The were also willing to compensate Porter Moser $2.2M/year (10 years) to stay.

Also, we were looking to expand the Midwest footprint especially in Chicago, and now have presence in 3 of the 4 largest media markets.
That certainly was a major reason for their unanimous acceptance into the A10, plus the committee knew it would help hasten and be beneficial in the new media contract negotiations, which it did.
That contract was also unanimously approved by the President's Council.

It is extremely doubtful that the top tier A10 programs will break away to form a new conference, I don't think there has been any serious conversations to that effect with those school's leaders.
Besides some of those schools may be looking for something bigger, possibly the BE.
UMass is probably looking to join a football conference at some point in the near future.
The A10 administration and council wanted to position itself in the best possible situation going forward and was looking for the best fit available. Loyola fit that bill for them and was overwhelmingly accepted by all the member schools.

Thanks, an excellent perspective on the overall situation supported by facts.

[bigappleram]

[Blue Man]

The question is does the attached link support Blue Man's assertion about Loyola:

"Their students don't care. Their adult fans don't care. They don't exist.”

“No basketball players really want to go there. No fans really want to go there either”

And just how does URI 's Soloviev facility compare to Norville and '"they don't care" Loyola attitude.

https://rdgusa.com/work/project/loyola- ... e-facility

OK their practice facility is nicer than ours...I'll give you that. If practice facilities were all that mattered than that would be cool.

But for some reason since they opened their super nice practice facility they haven't been any better than they were without it.

The best players obviously are looking for more than just a practice facility.

When we go back to the point about them having a fanbase that largely doesn't care...who's their "rival" - because it's tough to say.

They "revived" their super big rivalry with DePaul (that they've played 41 times in 74 years, and only 5 in the last 12) is a draw (when they play it), as it sold out last year. Probably a contributing factor is that the arenas are 20 mins from each other and DePaul's arena is almost 3x the size. I'll assume based on Loyola's average attendance, that the majority of those bodies in the seats were DePaul fans.

Since DePaul isn't really a rival for them and more a once every couple of years "treat" that people keep trying to make happen, Loyola went and manufactured a rivalry with UIC. That super awesome heated rivalry drew 2600 this year.

I even went back to the year after their Final Four run. A year you'd think that in a great city and a school with such rich basketball tradition, when things were at the best of the best. A year you'd expect that a 4600 seat arena just wouldn't be enough and people would be hanging from the rafters. You know what I found?

5 sellouts. home game 2 vs Furman, home game 4 vs #5 Nevada, home game 13 vs Southern Illinois (4pm Sat), home game 16 vs Missouri State (4pm Sun), Senior day home game 18 (6pm Sat).

5/18 games sold out in an arena of 4600 is shameful for a "basketball school" with such a rich history and vibrant fanbase to celebrate their greatest time as a program.

#23 Maryland came in while classes were still in session, 74% full. I think Rhody's student section would hit that number for the same game.

When URI had a small arena and we were good, it was standing room only. We have 1/10 the endowment of Loyola, and yet we were able to build an arena double the size, that has averaged more attendees per game over it's 22 years of operation than Loyola's capacity.

Sorry. I can't get there that this is some bastion of college basketball fandom that we're just not sophisticated enough to understand. This would be like saying we need to bow down to Fordham because of Digger Phelps that one time and Rose Hill is super old.

They can be a good school with a really nice practice facility. But they're not a basketball program that makes the A10 better.

[Blue Man]

And my bad about confusing MVC and Horizon - I think it goes to my larger point about teams that can’t even dominate those meaningless 1 bid leagues aren’t the teams we desperately need to add.

I wouldn’t confuse the MVC with the Horizon and denigrate them as a meaningless one bid league. Big difference between those two conferences. BTW, since you place big emphasis on size of arena, it is interesting to note that when it comes to facilities, the MVC schools are way above that of the A-10 as seen by the following:

Bradley U. 	    Carver Arena	11,060
Southern Illinois   Banterra Center	 8,264
Missouri State	    JPH Arena	        11,000
Indiana State	    Hulman Center	 9,000
Belmont	            Curb Event Center    5,000
Drake U.	    Knapp Center	 6,424
Illinois State	    CEFCU Arena	        10,200
Evansville U. 	    Ford Center	        11,000
Northern Illinois   NIU Con. Center	10,000
Valparaiso U.       ARC	                 5,000
UIC	            CU 1 Arena	         8,000

Exactly - it's not just the size of the arena. It's a constellation of things.

None of those are schools I'd be looking to form a conference with.

Again, if it were just arena size than George Mason would be a great basketball program too.

But it's sad that Loyola has a smaller arena than all of those programs since there's such a rich history that their super huge sports-focused fanbase cares about.

And maybe there's an easier way to explain this. It would be like URI arguing to be a part of the Big East and then we'd have to try and explain ourselves as an overall basketball program. We aren't a program at that level either. It's not right wrong or indifferent - it just is what it is.

Like yeah - we're a significantly better program than DePaul, but it doesn't mean we'd make the Big East better.

Dayton? Sure. They'd be a fit. But Loyola was never the Dayton of the MVC. They had a year or two.

But the argument about media markets is kind of irrelevant with streaming and how people watch today. The only argument you can make is for recruiting - where you can tell a recruit from Chicago they can play a team in their city. But with 15+ teams in the conference, you can use that pitch for once every 2 years. So it's pretty pointless.

[Jersey77]

The question is does the attached link support Blue Man's assertion about Loyola:

"Their students don't care. Their adult fans don't care. They don't exist.”

“No basketball players really want to go there. No fans really want to go there either”

And just how does URI 's Soloviev facility compare to Norville and '"they don't care" Loyola attitude.

https://rdgusa.com/work/project/loyola- ... e-facility

OK their practice facility is nicer than ours...I'll give you that. If practice facilities were all that mattered than that would be cool.

But for some reason since they opened their super nice practice facility they haven't been any better than they were without it.

The best players obviously are looking for more than just a practice facility.

When we go back to the point about them having a fanbase that largely doesn't care...who's their "rival" - because it's tough to say.

They "revived" their super big rivalry with DePaul (that they've played 41 times in 74 years, and only 5 in the last 12) is a draw (when they play it), as it sold out last year. Probably a contributing factor is that the arenas are 20 mins from each other and DePaul's arena is almost 3x the size. I'll assume based on Loyola's average attendance, that the majority of those bodies in the seats were DePaul fans.

Since DePaul isn't really a rival for them and more a once every couple of years "treat" that people keep trying to make happen, Loyola went and manufactured a rivalry with UIC. That super awesome heated rivalry drew 2600 this year.

I even went back to the year after their Final Four run. A year you'd think that in a great city and a school with such rich basketball tradition, when things were at the best of the best. A year you'd expect that a 4600 seat arena just wouldn't be enough and people would be hanging from the rafters. You know what I found?

5 sellouts. home game 2 vs Furman, home game 4 vs #5 Nevada, home game 13 vs Southern Illinois (4pm Sat), home game 16 vs Missouri State (4pm Sun), Senior day home game 18 (6pm Sat).

5/18 games sold out in an arena of 4600 is shameful for a "basketball school" with such a rich history and vibrant fanbase to celebrate their greatest time as a program.

#23 Maryland came in while classes were still in session, 74% full. I think Rhody's student section would hit that number for the same game.

When URI had a small arena and we were good, it was standing room only. We have 1/10 the endowment of Loyola, and yet we were able to build an arena double the size, that has averaged more attendees per game over it's 22 years of operation than Loyola's capacity.

Sorry. I can't get there that this is some bastion of college basketball fandom that we're just not sophisticated enough to understand. This would be like saying we need to bow down to Fordham because of Digger Phelps that one time and Rose Hill is super old.

They can be a good school with a really nice practice facility. But they're not a basketball program that makes the A10 better.

Actually making the A10 better don't know yet (hope so), but the A10 felt that Loyola's addition would be helpful and beneficial in keeping the conference relevant. I would guess that the pluses far outweighed the negatives, based upon their fast acceptance and overwhelming approval, it was apparently a no-brainer in their minds. Survival is the key in today's college basketball environment especially for the mid-majors and those that don't have football.

[RhowdyRam02]

You keep reciting your appeal to authority argument as if it means anything. The Atlantic 10 and it's members have made a bunch of mistakes in deciding which schools to add and we've been trending in the wrong direction for a decade, culminating in only having one bid last year. They get plenty of decisions wrong, this was another one they whiffed on

[Jersey77]

You keep reciting your appeal to authority argument as if it means anything. The Atlantic 10 and it's members have made a bunch of mistakes in deciding which schools to add and we've been trending in the wrong direction for a decade, culminating in only having one bid last year. They get plenty of decisions wrong, this was another one they whiffed on

02, I think you are rushing to judgement way too soon.
You and I weren't in those A10 meetings, so we don't have all the facts.
We can only go by what the insider's impressions were and how fast and easy the decision was made.

Of course, the losses over the years outweigh the gains, can't blame those schools for trading up.
Just like I will never blame Hurley or any other coach for doing the same.

I guess the same can also be said for the players in today's world of the portal and NIL, or free agency.

[RF1]

I wonder whether fans on other A-10 Boards are advocating against URI's continued membership in the A-10. The program has never been able to be a consistent winner experiencing dramatic peaks and valleys. This season will likely be its fourth losing year in a row and its home attendance is declining to near its lowest level in some 25 years. It no longer has any local tv game coverage and does not even broadcast its games on a traditional over the airwaves radio station. The program typically has annual issues selling its mandatory ticket allotment to the men's basketball conference tournament and has routinely actively marketed its tickets to the fan bases of other schools so that it does not take a financial hit.

[bigappleram]

I wonder whether fans on other A-10 Boards are advocating against URI's continued membership in the A-10. The program has never been able to be a consistent winner experiencing dramatic peaks and valleys. This season will likely be its fourth losing year in a row and its home attendance is declining to near its lowest level in some 25 years. It no longer has any local tv game coverage and does not even broadcast its games on a traditional over the airwaves radio station. The program typically has annual issues selling its mandatory ticket allotment to the men's basketball conference tournament and has routinely actively marketed its tickets to the fan bases of other schools so that it does not take a financial hit.

This is such BS. We just posted data showing despite the on court performance we still rank 5th or 6th in attendance.

Literally 1-2 years ago programs stopped getting free money from our tourney wins under Dan.

We have had 4 different coaches lead us to the tourney and a 5th (Baron) who got as close as humanly possible on multiple occasions. See how many other programs can say that? I am guessing VCU and no one else can make that same claim over the last 35-40 years. Most have had 1 magical run under 1 coach and never able to replicate it (ahem, Umass).

Just bc we have had a few bad seasons recently and even over the course of the last 2-3 decades it does not even come close to putting us in same boat at Fordham, Lasalle, Duquesne, etc. There are levels to this.

[RF1]

And my bad about confusing MVC and Horizon - I think it goes to my larger point about teams that can’t even dominate those meaningless 1 bid leagues aren’t the teams we desperately need to add.

While Loyola came to the A-10 from the MVC, it was in the conference for less than a decade (2013-2022). It had earlier been a charter member of the Horizon league for 34 seasons.

[RF1]

I wonder whether fans on other A-10 Boards are advocating against URI's continued membership in the A-10. The program has never been able to be a consistent winner experiencing dramatic peaks and valleys. This season will likely be its fourth losing year in a row and its home attendance is declining to near its lowest level in some 25 years. It no longer has any local tv game coverage and does not even broadcast its games on a traditional over the airwaves radio station. The program typically has annual issues selling its mandatory ticket allotment to the men's basketball conference tournament and has routinely actively marketed its tickets to the fan bases of other schools so that it does not take a financial hit.

This is such BS. We just posted data showing despite the on court performance we still rank 5th or 6th in attendance.

Literally 1-2 years ago programs stopped getting free money from our tourney wins under Dan.

We have had 4 different coaches lead us to the tourney and a 5th (Baron) who got as close as humanly possible on multiple occasions. See how many other programs can say that? I am guessing VCU and no one else can make that same claim over the last 35-40 years. Most have had 1 magical run under 1 coach and never able to replicate it (ahem, Umass).

Just bc we have had a few bad seasons recently and even over the course of the last 2-3 decades it does not even come close to putting us in same boat at Fordham, Lasalle, Duquesne, etc. There are levels to this.

I am not saying that URI does not have some strengths and makes contributions to the league. I am merely trying to point out that it also has many weaknesses which some others around the league might instead choose to fixate on.

[PlayMikeMotenMore]

And my bad about confusing MVC and Horizon - I think it goes to my larger point about teams that can’t even dominate those meaningless 1 bid leagues aren’t the teams we desperately need to add.

I wouldn’t confuse the MVC with the Horizon and denigrate them as a meaningless one bid league. Big difference between those two conferences. BTW, since you place big emphasis on size of arena, it is interesting to note that when it comes to facilities, the MVC schools are way above that of the A-10 as seen by the following:

Bradley U. 	    Carver Arena	11,060
Southern Illinois   Banterra Center	 8,264
Missouri State	    JPH Arena	        11,000
Indiana State	    Hulman Center	 9,000
Belmont	            Curb Event Center    5,000
Drake U.	    Knapp Center	 6,424
Illinois State	    CEFCU Arena	        10,200
Evansville U. 	    Ford Center	        11,000
Northern Illinois   NIU Con. Center	10,000
Valparaiso U.       ARC	                 5,000
UIC	            CU 1 Arena	         8,000

Exactly - it's not just the size of the arena. It's a constellation of things.

None of those are schools I'd be looking to form a conference with.

Again, if it were just arena size than George Mason would be a great basketball program too.

But it's sad that Loyola has a smaller arena than all of those programs since there's such a rich history that their super huge sports-focused fanbase cares about.

And maybe there's an easier way to explain this. It would be like URI arguing to be a part of the Big East and then we'd have to try and explain ourselves as an overall basketball program. We aren't a program at that level either. It's not right wrong or indifferent - it just is what it is.

Like yeah - we're a significantly better program than DePaul, but it doesn't mean we'd make the Big East better.

Dayton? Sure. They'd be a fit. But Loyola was never the Dayton of the MVC. They had a year or two.

But the argument about media markets is kind of irrelevant with streaming and how people watch today. The only argument you can make is for recruiting - where you can tell a recruit from Chicago they can play a team in their city. But with 15+ teams in the conference, you can use that pitch for once every 2 years. So it's pretty pointless.

A few things on all these comments...
-Slight correction, Northern Illinois University is in the MAC, not the Missouri Valley Conference.
-Arena size is irrelevant. You build an arena to fit the needs and the demand. (what's the season ticket base, where do ticket holders live, what's the potential ticket base if the school consistently wins, should it be a multi-purpose facility, is there even land to build a larger arena, etc.)
-I wouldn't poo-poo the Missouri Valley Conference nor the Horizon League as conferences. People sound like snobby Big East blowhards when Butler and Creighton joined that league, right? Before those schools joined the that league, Big East slappies would claim that Horizon/MVC teams could never hack it in the rough-and-tumble Big East. That's proven to be wrong. (And Davidson has shown that they're more than capable of competing in the A10.)
-From a geography standpoint, Loyola makes zero sense joining the A10. But as we now know, geography means nothing in conferences these days.
-The only people who can speak to Loyola and its fan base and student engagement are Loyola people. It's a niche school in Chicago. It has never had a big following in Chicago and certainly not the surrounding area. It's Illinois and Notre Dame...and everybody else. And I don't think one can pass judgment on it as a fit for the A10 based on one lousy men's basketball season...just as I hope people wouldn't judge URI or Archie Miller based on 2022-23.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... 65,-87.488

[Obadiah]

Thanks PMMM for the correction, I went astray by my scribbling and got my Northerns confused. The correct school is Northern Iowa and the MacLeod Center with its 6,500 capacity.

[RhowdyRam02]

I wouldn’t confuse the MVC with the Horizon and denigrate them as a meaningless one bid league. Big difference between those two conferences. BTW, since you place big emphasis on size of arena, it is interesting to note that when it comes to facilities, the MVC schools are way above that of the A-10 as seen by the following:

Bradley U. 	    Carver Arena	11,060
Southern Illinois   Banterra Center	 8,264
Missouri State	    JPH Arena	        11,000
Indiana State	    Hulman Center	 9,000
Belmont	            Curb Event Center    5,000
Drake U.	    Knapp Center	 6,424
Illinois State	    CEFCU Arena	        10,200
Evansville U. 	    Ford Center	        11,000
Northern Illinois   NIU Con. Center	10,000
Valparaiso U.       ARC	                 5,000
UIC	            CU 1 Arena	         8,000

Exactly - it's not just the size of the arena. It's a constellation of things.

None of those are schools I'd be looking to form a conference with.

Again, if it were just arena size than George Mason would be a great basketball program too.

But it's sad that Loyola has a smaller arena than all of those programs since there's such a rich history that their super huge sports-focused fanbase cares about.

And maybe there's an easier way to explain this. It would be like URI arguing to be a part of the Big East and then we'd have to try and explain ourselves as an overall basketball program. We aren't a program at that level either. It's not right wrong or indifferent - it just is what it is.

Like yeah - we're a significantly better program than DePaul, but it doesn't mean we'd make the Big East better.

Dayton? Sure. They'd be a fit. But Loyola was never the Dayton of the MVC. They had a year or two.

But the argument about media markets is kind of irrelevant with streaming and how people watch today. The only argument you can make is for recruiting - where you can tell a recruit from Chicago they can play a team in their city. But with 15+ teams in the conference, you can use that pitch for once every 2 years. So it's pretty pointless.

A few things on all these comments...
-Slight correction, Northern Illinois University is in the MAC, not the Missouri Valley Conference.
-Arena size is irrelevant. You build an arena to fit the needs and the demand. (what's the season ticket base, where do ticket holders live, what's the potential ticket base if the school consistently wins, should it be a multi-purpose facility, is there even land to build a larger arena, etc.)
-I wouldn't poo-poo the Missouri Valley Conference nor the Horizon League as conferences. People sound like snobby Big East blowhards when Butler and Creighton joined that league, right? Before those schools joined the that league, Big East slappies would claim that Horizon/MVC teams could never hack it in the rough-and-tumble Big East. That's proven to be wrong. (And Davidson has shown that they're more than capable of competing in the A10.)
-From a geography standpoint, Loyola makes zero sense joining the A10. But as we now know, geography means nothing in conferences these days.
-The only people who can speak to Loyola and its fan base and student engagement are Loyola people. It's a niche school in Chicago. It has never had a big following in Chicago and certainly not the surrounding area. It's Illinois and Notre Dame...and everybody else. And I don't think one can pass judgment on it as a fit for the A10 based on one lousy men's basketball season...just as I hope people wouldn't judge URI or Archie Miller based on 2022-23.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... 65,-87.488

"-Arena size is irrelevant. You build an arena to fit the needs and the demand. (what's the season ticket base, where do ticket holders live, what's the potential ticket base if the school consistently wins, should it be a multi-purpose facility, is there even land to build a larger arena, etc.)"

Season ticket base, where do ticket holders live, and what's the potential ticket base if the school consistently wins all seem like very important factors in deciding what conference a school belongs in. If a school doesn't have a big enough fanbase buying tickets they're not going to have the money to compete long-term in this conference. There's a reason why La Salle, Fordham, and Duquesne are consistently near the bottom, why Dayton and VCU are consistently near the top, and programs like St. Louis, Rhode Island, and Richmond are mid-pack programs that bounce all around the standings.

Arena size says a lot about a program. Part of the design process is studying what your fan base is and what it could be under optimal conditions. That Loyola has about 4500 seats for a home gym, with the same student enrollment as URI, in the third most populous city in the country, with no plans to expand, and an average attendance below UMass says everything about that program, and none of it is good

[Blue Man]

I wonder whether fans on other A-10 Boards are advocating against URI's continued membership in the A-10. The program has never been able to be a consistent winner experiencing dramatic peaks and valleys. This season will likely be its fourth losing year in a row and its home attendance is declining to near its lowest level in some 25 years. It no longer has any local tv game coverage and does not even broadcast its games on a traditional over the airwaves radio station. The program typically has annual issues selling its mandatory ticket allotment to the men's basketball conference tournament and has routinely actively marketed its tickets to the fan bases of other schools so that it does not take a financial hit.

This is such BS. We just posted data showing despite the on court performance we still rank 5th or 6th in attendance.

Literally 1-2 years ago programs stopped getting free money from our tourney wins under Dan.

We have had 4 different coaches lead us to the tourney and a 5th (Baron) who got as close as humanly possible on multiple occasions. See how many other programs can say that? I am guessing VCU and no one else can make that same claim over the last 35-40 years. Most have had 1 magical run under 1 coach and never able to replicate it (ahem, Umass).

Just bc we have had a few bad seasons recently and even over the course of the last 2-3 decades it does not even come close to putting us in same boat at Fordham, Lasalle, Duquesne, etc. There are levels to this.

Technically we're still giving the conference free money. Credits are good for 6 years of payouts.

And yes, no one in any rational mind would be saying URI needs to leave the conference when La Salle, Duquesne, Fordham, George Mason, or George Washington exist.

Ignoring the fact that we STILL draw significantly more per game than a majority of the conference (which is a good indicator of fan support), but we are usually a good game for the conference - typically a top 150/top 100 team that doesn't hurt an aspiring A10 team's chances of going dancing.

That to me is far more important than anything else when it comes to "helping" the conference. You're either getting bids yourself, or you're helping the conference get bids.

Only once in the last decade have we been a "bad" loss for the conference. We've always been a Q2 team or better. Only last year were we outside of the top 150 in NET for the first time ever. Even Cox's worst team was a 142. That's a Q2 game for anyone coming to see us at the Ryan Center. Going all the way back to the Baron/RPI era - only in his last year and Hurley's first were we outside of the top half of college basketball. We've always been good enough to be a quality win, just rarely good enough to be an NCAA team.

Basically once a decade when we rebuild are we a bad team. And it usually lasts for a short time.

As a refresher, La Salle had ONE good year where they caught fire and won some NCAA games. Otherwise they've never been dancing and have almost routinely been a Q3 or Q4 game that drags everyone down. George Mason, Fordham, Duquesne have NEVER been to the NCAA since their joining the conference. Yet, despite not contributing one dollar to everyone's coffers (but getting an equal payout), they have been a BAD loss - Q3 or Q4 a majority of the time.

I can't believe we're having to defend URI as a basketball program on URI's message board.

The "near lowest" attendance figure (which is far from written in stone), is still top 6 and probably top 5 in the conference by the end of the year. So I'm not sure what we're even talking about here.

The point being that we're at a low point in our program's history, during a rebuild - and we still draw significantly more fans on an average night than the majority of our conference. That's more positive for URI than negative. Like, yeah..it's below average for us, but it's still a hell of a lot better than a majority of A10 programs on their best days.

We're far more basketball school than most of the conference - just like Dayton, VCU, Richmond, St. Louis, and St. Bonaventure in the attendance rankings. Which is ironic, because those are all the schools some of us are saying we should be explore a separate conference with.

[bigappleram]

I wonder whether fans on other A-10 Boards are advocating against URI's continued membership in the A-10. The program has never been able to be a consistent winner experiencing dramatic peaks and valleys. This season will likely be its fourth losing year in a row and its home attendance is declining to near its lowest level in some 25 years. It no longer has any local tv game coverage and does not even broadcast its games on a traditional over the airwaves radio station. The program typically has annual issues selling its mandatory ticket allotment to the men's basketball conference tournament and has routinely actively marketed its tickets to the fan bases of other schools so that it does not take a financial hit.

This is such BS. We just posted data showing despite the on court performance we still rank 5th or 6th in attendance.

Literally 1-2 years ago programs stopped getting free money from our tourney wins under Dan.

We have had 4 different coaches lead us to the tourney and a 5th (Baron) who got as close as humanly possible on multiple occasions. See how many other programs can say that? I am guessing VCU and no one else can make that same claim over the last 35-40 years. Most have had 1 magical run under 1 coach and never able to replicate it (ahem, Umass).

Just bc we have had a few bad seasons recently and even over the course of the last 2-3 decades it does not even come close to putting us in same boat at Fordham, Lasalle, Duquesne, etc. There are levels to this.

I am not saying that URI does not have some strengths and makes contributions to the league. I am merely trying to point out that it also has many weaknesses which some others around the league might instead choose to fixate on.

Preposterous again. Besides VCU or Dayton fans which “some others around the league” have even a half leg to stand on in talking down Rhody. I’ll answer that, none of them.

Resources and track record for success are all that matters. Besides those two programs not 1 other could have beef with our existence in this league. And none do…except for some of our own fans lol.

[RhowdyRam02]

I wonder whether fans on other A-10 Boards are advocating against URI's continued membership in the A-10. The program has never been able to be a consistent winner experiencing dramatic peaks and valleys. This season will likely be its fourth losing year in a row and its home attendance is declining to near its lowest level in some 25 years. It no longer has any local tv game coverage and does not even broadcast its games on a traditional over the airwaves radio station. The program typically has annual issues selling its mandatory ticket allotment to the men's basketball conference tournament and has routinely actively marketed its tickets to the fan bases of other schools so that it does not take a financial hit.

This is such BS. We just posted data showing despite the on court performance we still rank 5th or 6th in attendance.

Literally 1-2 years ago programs stopped getting free money from our tourney wins under Dan.

We have had 4 different coaches lead us to the tourney and a 5th (Baron) who got as close as humanly possible on multiple occasions. See how many other programs can say that? I am guessing VCU and no one else can make that same claim over the last 35-40 years. Most have had 1 magical run under 1 coach and never able to replicate it (ahem, Umass).

Just bc we have had a few bad seasons recently and even over the course of the last 2-3 decades it does not even come close to putting us in same boat at Fordham, Lasalle, Duquesne, etc. There are levels to this.

Actually, unless something changed, last year was the last year they got money from our 2017 tournament and this year is the last year they're getting money from our 2018 tournament.

In other words, teams are still sucking on our teat

[Blue Man]

You keep reciting your appeal to authority argument as if it means anything. The Atlantic 10 and it's members have made a bunch of mistakes in deciding which schools to add and we've been trending in the wrong direction for a decade, culminating in only having one bid last year. They get plenty of decisions wrong, this was another one they whiffed on

Yeah again, the members had an opportunity when the Catholic 7 was a thing to go for the jugular and be inventive. If the battle axe had any foresight or balls, maybe this one bid conference could've been avoided.

In 2012-2013 - you had a conference that sent 5 teams to the NCAA. There was no AAC yet.

There were 7 programs - DePaul, Georgetown, Marquette, PC, St John's, Seton Hall, and Villanova all without homes.

You could've pitched a collective agreement with Butler, Xavier, Dayton, St Louis, VCU, Richmond, and Rhode Island - 7 basketball only schools with larger arenas, geographical partners in recruiting areas around the Midwest, DMV, and Northeast.

Travel partners would be convenient in all regions - SLU/DePaul/Marquette/Butler/Dayton/Xavier in the midwest, Villanova/St Johns/PC/URI/Seton Hall in the Northeast, and Georgetown/VCU/Richmond in the DMV

You'd have imported natural rivalries with Xavier/Dayton, VCU/Richmond, and PC/URI.

A 14 team conference with enough national pedigree at that time and no D1 football aspirations to drive the ship. I would bet if you pitched that to Fox, you get a similar or larger contract with high profile/up and coming name brand coaches like Brad Stevens, Chris Mack, Shaka Smart, Dan Hurley, Archie Miller.

Xavier was coming off of 7 straight NCAA's, 3 with Chris Mack, with 3 Sweet 16s and an Elite 8.
VCU was another name brand 3 years removed from the final four with Shaka and Havoc.
Butler was 2 years removed from national final appearances and an NCAA run with Brad Stevens.
Richmond was 2 years removed from a Sweet 16 and back to back appearances.
St Louis was on back to back NCAA appearances and wins and Rick Majerus just passed away.
Dayton and URI were in the 2nd years of their rebuilds with big name upstart coaches in Dan and Archie.

Those A10 teams had plenty of leverage considering...

Marquette had Buzz Williams and an Elite 8 run coming off of 8 straight appearances. That compares to what Xavier was doing at the same time.
Nova wasn't Nova yet - they had made a final four run to that point, comparable to VCU.
Georgetown still had John Thompson, and were 4 straight NCAAs at that point, coming off of a final four 7 years prior. Compare them to Butler.
St Johns had been to one NCAA in the last decade and it was Lavin's 2nd year. Richmond was a better program at that time.
Seton Hall was in year 3 of Willard, hadn't been to the NCAAs in 7 years. St Louis was a better program at that time.
PC was in a post-Keno rebuild, it was Ed Cooley's 2nd year. Zero NCAA appearances since 98. Dayton was a better program at that time.
DePaul was what they always were, and even with the rebuild Rhody was better at that time.

If you look at this list...both those groups had 3 NCAA teams that season. You can make the case that 3 of the 4 best teams in that 14 at the time were coming from the A10 with Xavier, VCU, and Butler.

The fact that we had a brief moment in history to have that much leverage, and form a legitimate basketball conference with those teams is a gut shot.

Instead we stuck with the high school gyms and nobodies and have watched the world grow around us while we sink into irrelevancy.

This is a long form post to say that the unanimous decisions of our conference leadership is reproachable to say the least.

Ugh. IMAGINE WHAT WE COULD'VE HAD.

I'm gonna start boozing to get my head right for the game and forget this re-discovered pain.

[Rhody15]

You keep reciting your appeal to authority argument as if it means anything. The Atlantic 10 and it's members have made a bunch of mistakes in deciding which schools to add and we've been trending in the wrong direction for a decade, culminating in only having one bid last year. They get plenty of decisions wrong, this was another one they whiffed on

Yeah again, the members had an opportunity when the Catholic 7 was a thing to go for the jugular and be inventive. If the battle axe had any foresight or balls, maybe this one bid conference could've been avoided.

In 2012-2013 - you had a conference that sent 5 teams to the NCAA. There was no AAC yet.

There were 7 programs - DePaul, Georgetown, Marquette, PC, St John's, Seton Hall, and Villanova all without homes.

You could've pitched a collective agreement with Butler, Xavier, Dayton, St Louis, VCU, Richmond, and Rhode Island - 7 basketball only schools with larger arenas, geographical partners in recruiting areas around the Midwest, DMV, and Northeast.

Travel partners would be convenient in all regions - SLU/DePaul/Marquette/Butler/Dayton/Xavier in the midwest, Villanova/St Johns/PC/URI/Seton Hall in the Northeast, and Georgetown/VCU/Richmond in the DMV

You'd have imported natural rivalries with Xavier/Dayton, VCU/Richmond, and PC/URI.

A 14 team conference with enough national pedigree at that time and no D1 football aspirations to drive the ship. I would bet if you pitched that to Fox, you get a similar or larger contract with high profile/up and coming name brand coaches like Brad Stevens, Chris Mack, Shaka Smart, Dan Hurley, Archie Miller.

Xavier was coming off of 7 straight NCAA's, 3 with Chris Mack, with 3 Sweet 16s and an Elite 8.
VCU was another name brand 3 years removed from the final four with Shaka and Havoc.
Butler was 2 years removed from national final appearances and an NCAA run with Brad Stevens.
Richmond was 2 years removed from a Sweet 16 and back to back appearances.
St Louis was on back to back NCAA appearances and wins and Rick Majerus just passed away.
Dayton and URI were in the 2nd years of their rebuilds with big name upstart coaches in Dan and Archie.

Those A10 teams had plenty of leverage considering...

Marquette had Buzz Williams and an Elite 8 run coming off of 8 straight appearances. That compares to what Xavier was doing at the same time.
Nova wasn't Nova yet - they had made a final four run to that point, comparable to VCU.
Georgetown still had John Thompson, and were 4 straight NCAAs at that point, coming off of a final four 7 years prior. Compare them to Butler.
St Johns had been to one NCAA in the last decade and it was Lavin's 2nd year. Richmond was a better program at that time.
Seton Hall was in year 3 of Willard, hadn't been to the NCAAs in 7 years. St Louis was a better program at that time.
PC was in a post-Keno rebuild, it was Ed Cooley's 2nd year. Zero NCAA appearances since 98. Dayton was a better program at that time.
DePaul was what they always were, and even with the rebuild Rhody was better at that time.

If you look at this list...both those groups had 3 NCAA teams that season. You can make the case that 3 of the 4 best teams in that 14 at the time were coming from the A10 with Xavier, VCU, and Butler.

The fact that we had a brief moment in history to have that much leverage, and form a legitimate basketball conference with those teams is a gut shot.

Instead we stuck with the high school gyms and nobodies and have watched the world grow around us while we sink into irrelevancy.

This is a long form post to say that the unanimous decisions of our conference leadership is reproachable to say the least.

Ugh. IMAGINE WHAT WE COULD'VE HAD.

I'm gonna start boozing to get my head right for the game and forget this re-discovered pain.

That’s a crazy hypothetical that wasn’t even brought to the table by anyone.

Absolutely no reason to get upset about that not happening seeing how it’s just a completely made up scenario.

Now sure, that sounds great. Would’ve been a great conference.

But not even worth wasting time thinking or posting about that made up conference you just typed out.

[theblueram]

You keep reciting your appeal to authority argument as if it means anything. The Atlantic 10 and it's members have made a bunch of mistakes in deciding which schools to add and we've been trending in the wrong direction for a decade, culminating in only having one bid last year. They get plenty of decisions wrong, this was another one they whiffed on

Yeah again, the members had an opportunity when the Catholic 7 was a thing to go for the jugular and be inventive. If the battle axe had any foresight or balls, maybe this one bid conference could've been avoided.

In 2012-2013 - you had a conference that sent 5 teams to the NCAA. There was no AAC yet.

There were 7 programs - DePaul, Georgetown, Marquette, PC, St John's, Seton Hall, and Villanova all without homes.

You could've pitched a collective agreement with Butler, Xavier, Dayton, St Louis, VCU, Richmond, and Rhode Island - 7 basketball only schools with larger arenas, geographical partners in recruiting areas around the Midwest, DMV, and Northeast.

Travel partners would be convenient in all regions - SLU/DePaul/Marquette/Butler/Dayton/Xavier in the midwest, Villanova/St Johns/PC/URI/Seton Hall in the Northeast, and Georgetown/VCU/Richmond in the DMV

You'd have imported natural rivalries with Xavier/Dayton, VCU/Richmond, and PC/URI.

A 14 team conference with enough national pedigree at that time and no D1 football aspirations to drive the ship. I would bet if you pitched that to Fox, you get a similar or larger contract with high profile/up and coming name brand coaches like Brad Stevens, Chris Mack, Shaka Smart, Dan Hurley, Archie Miller.

Xavier was coming off of 7 straight NCAA's, 3 with Chris Mack, with 3 Sweet 16s and an Elite 8.
VCU was another name brand 3 years removed from the final four with Shaka and Havoc.
Butler was 2 years removed from national final appearances and an NCAA run with Brad Stevens.
Richmond was 2 years removed from a Sweet 16 and back to back appearances.
St Louis was on back to back NCAA appearances and wins and Rick Majerus just passed away.
Dayton and URI were in the 2nd years of their rebuilds with big name upstart coaches in Dan and Archie.

Those A10 teams had plenty of leverage considering...

Marquette had Buzz Williams and an Elite 8 run coming off of 8 straight appearances. That compares to what Xavier was doing at the same time.
Nova wasn't Nova yet - they had made a final four run to that point, comparable to VCU.
Georgetown still had John Thompson, and were 4 straight NCAAs at that point, coming off of a final four 7 years prior. Compare them to Butler.
St Johns had been to one NCAA in the last decade and it was Lavin's 2nd year. Richmond was a better program at that time.
Seton Hall was in year 3 of Willard, hadn't been to the NCAAs in 7 years. St Louis was a better program at that time.
PC was in a post-Keno rebuild, it was Ed Cooley's 2nd year. Zero NCAA appearances since 98. Dayton was a better program at that time.
DePaul was what they always were, and even with the rebuild Rhody was better at that time.

If you look at this list...both those groups had 3 NCAA teams that season. You can make the case that 3 of the 4 best teams in that 14 at the time were coming from the A10 with Xavier, VCU, and Butler.

The fact that we had a brief moment in history to have that much leverage, and form a legitimate basketball conference with those teams is a gut shot.

Instead we stuck with the high school gyms and nobodies and have watched the world grow around us while we sink into irrelevancy.

This is a long form post to say that the unanimous decisions of our conference leadership is reproachable to say the least.

Ugh. IMAGINE WHAT WE COULD'VE HAD.

I'm gonna start boozing to get my head right for the game and forget this re-discovered pain.

That’s a crazy hypothetical that wasn’t even brought to the table by anyone.

Absolutely no reason to get upset about that not happening seeing how it’s just a completely made up scenario.

Now sure, that sounds great. Would’ve been a great conference.

But not even worth wasting time thinking or posting about that made up conference you just typed out.

Why not?

[Jdrums#3]

I don’t think it’s a waste. I appreciate the creative, adapt and overcome thought process as well as the mental exercise.

Nice job, BlueMan! I could only hope that the conference and our athletic dept puts some out of the box thinking to use in the future to keep our mbb program relevant.

[adam914]

Do we know for a fact that there wasn't an attempt like that made at the time? Or that there was interest from those other schools? It's great to speculate about what could have been, but some of this discussion is making it sound like they had the option to take all those teams and make that conference but just decided not to instead.

[Jersey77]

Do we know for a fact that there wasn't an attempt like that made at the time? Or that there was interest from those other schools? It's great to speculate about what could have been, but some of this discussion is making it sound like they had the option to take all those teams and make that conference but just decided not to instead.

[Rhody15]

Getting legitimately mad about stuff you 100% make up in your own head is, uh, very weird.

But that’s just me.

[ramster]

Note to self.....

Make sure to be in town for the Sunday Feb 18 game with Loyola at the Ryan Center. Imagine this place if we lose to Loyola at home? Yikes!!

77,
You might want to make it up here for that one. Plus URI WBB hosts Davidson on Saturday, same weekend.

[Jersey77]

Note to self.....

Make sure to be in town for the Sunday Feb 18 game with Loyola at the Ryan Center. Imagine this place if we lose to Loyola at home? Yikes!!

77,
You might want to make it up here for that one. Plus URI WBB hosts Davidson on Saturday, same weekend.

Yep, saw that.

[ramster]

Note to self.....

Make sure to be in town for the Sunday Feb 18 game with Loyola at the Ryan Center. Imagine this place if we lose to Loyola at home? Yikes!!

77,
You might want to make it up here for that one. Plus URI WBB hosts Davidson on Saturday, same weekend.

Yep, saw that.

It's funny 77,
This board is turning URI vs Loyola into a rivalry

[ramster]

Note to self.....

Make sure to be in town for the Sunday Feb 18 game with Loyola at the Ryan Center. Imagine this place if we lose to Loyola at home? Yikes!!

77,
You might want to make it up here for that one. Plus URI WBB hosts Davidson on Saturday, same weekend.

Yep, saw that.

It's funny 77,
This board is turning URI vs Loyola into a rivalry

If you have never been to Fordham, URI plays at Fordham the last game of the season. Good game to go to prior to the start of the A10 Tournament on Tuesday at Barclays.

[Jersey77]

Note to self.....

Make sure to be in town for the Sunday Feb 18 game with Loyola at the Ryan Center. Imagine this place if we lose to Loyola at home? Yikes!!

77,
You might want to make it up here for that one. Plus URI WBB hosts Davidson on Saturday, same weekend.

Yep, saw that.

It's funny 77,
This board is turning URI vs Loyola into a rivalry

If you have never been to Fordham, URI plays at Fordham the last game of the season. Good game to go to prior to the start of the A10 Tournament on Tuesday at Barclays.

I typically go to that game and have dinner on Arthur Ave. I have a picture with Bill Murray hugging my wife at that game from years ago, when his son was coaching.

[NYGFan_Section208]

Note to self.....

Make sure to be in town for the Sunday Feb 18 game with Loyola at the Ryan Center. Imagine this place if we lose to Loyola at home? Yikes!!

77,
You might want to make it up here for that one. Plus URI WBB hosts Davidson on Saturday, same weekend.

Yep, saw that.

It's funny 77,
This board is turning URI vs Loyola into a rivalry

If you have never been to Fordham, URI plays at Fordham the last game of the season. Good game to go to prior to the start of the A10 Tournament on Tuesday at Barclays.

It was a fun bus trip...seems like way back when...

[Rhody15]

Yep, saw that.

It's funny 77,
This board is turning URI vs Loyola into a rivalry

If you have never been to Fordham, URI plays at Fordham the last game of the season. Good game to go to prior to the start of the A10 Tournament on Tuesday at Barclays.

It was a fun bus trip...seems like way back when...

Last years got cancelled I remember.

[Blue Man]

You keep reciting your appeal to authority argument as if it means anything. The Atlantic 10 and it's members have made a bunch of mistakes in deciding which schools to add and we've been trending in the wrong direction for a decade, culminating in only having one bid last year. They get plenty of decisions wrong, this was another one they whiffed on

Yeah again, the members had an opportunity when the Catholic 7 was a thing to go for the jugular and be inventive. If the battle axe had any foresight or balls, maybe this one bid conference could've been avoided.

In 2012-2013 - you had a conference that sent 5 teams to the NCAA. There was no AAC yet.

There were 7 programs - DePaul, Georgetown, Marquette, PC, St John's, Seton Hall, and Villanova all without homes.

You could've pitched a collective agreement with Butler, Xavier, Dayton, St Louis, VCU, Richmond, and Rhode Island - 7 basketball only schools with larger arenas, geographical partners in recruiting areas around the Midwest, DMV, and Northeast.

Travel partners would be convenient in all regions - SLU/DePaul/Marquette/Butler/Dayton/Xavier in the midwest, Villanova/St Johns/PC/URI/Seton Hall in the Northeast, and Georgetown/VCU/Richmond in the DMV

You'd have imported natural rivalries with Xavier/Dayton, VCU/Richmond, and PC/URI.

A 14 team conference with enough national pedigree at that time and no D1 football aspirations to drive the ship. I would bet if you pitched that to Fox, you get a similar or larger contract with high profile/up and coming name brand coaches like Brad Stevens, Chris Mack, Shaka Smart, Dan Hurley, Archie Miller.

Xavier was coming off of 7 straight NCAA's, 3 with Chris Mack, with 3 Sweet 16s and an Elite 8.
VCU was another name brand 3 years removed from the final four with Shaka and Havoc.
Butler was 2 years removed from national final appearances and an NCAA run with Brad Stevens.
Richmond was 2 years removed from a Sweet 16 and back to back appearances.
St Louis was on back to back NCAA appearances and wins and Rick Majerus just passed away.
Dayton and URI were in the 2nd years of their rebuilds with big name upstart coaches in Dan and Archie.

Those A10 teams had plenty of leverage considering...

Marquette had Buzz Williams and an Elite 8 run coming off of 8 straight appearances. That compares to what Xavier was doing at the same time.
Nova wasn't Nova yet - they had made a final four run to that point, comparable to VCU.
Georgetown still had John Thompson, and were 4 straight NCAAs at that point, coming off of a final four 7 years prior. Compare them to Butler.
St Johns had been to one NCAA in the last decade and it was Lavin's 2nd year. Richmond was a better program at that time.
Seton Hall was in year 3 of Willard, hadn't been to the NCAAs in 7 years. St Louis was a better program at that time.
PC was in a post-Keno rebuild, it was Ed Cooley's 2nd year. Zero NCAA appearances since 98. Dayton was a better program at that time.
DePaul was what they always were, and even with the rebuild Rhody was better at that time.

If you look at this list...both those groups had 3 NCAA teams that season. You can make the case that 3 of the 4 best teams in that 14 at the time were coming from the A10 with Xavier, VCU, and Butler.

The fact that we had a brief moment in history to have that much leverage, and form a legitimate basketball conference with those teams is a gut shot.

Instead we stuck with the high school gyms and nobodies and have watched the world grow around us while we sink into irrelevancy.

This is a long form post to say that the unanimous decisions of our conference leadership is reproachable to say the least.

Ugh. IMAGINE WHAT WE COULD'VE HAD.

I'm gonna start boozing to get my head right for the game and forget this re-discovered pain.

That’s a crazy hypothetical that wasn’t even brought to the table by anyone.

Absolutely no reason to get upset about that not happening seeing how it’s just a completely made up scenario.

Now sure, that sounds great. Would’ve been a great conference.

But not even worth wasting time thinking or posting about that made up conference you just typed out.

Search this board I guarantee I brought it up. I'm just remembering it now.

Now whether or not the battleaxe did is a different story. But why some just out of college fan is thinking about it and not the leader of the conference is a different story.

[Rhode_Island_Red]

I typically go to that game and have dinner on Arthur Ave. I have a picture with Bill Murray hugging my wife at that game from years ago, when his son was coaching.

Always liked seeing Bill Murray in the seats behind our bench. He came off as just a regular guy.

[NYGFan_Section208]

It's funny 77,
This board is turning URI vs Loyola into a rivalry

If you have never been to Fordham, URI plays at Fordham the last game of the season. Good game to go to prior to the start of the A10 Tournament on Tuesday at Barclays.

It was a fun bus trip...seems like way back when...

Last years got cancelled I remember.

Well, get your tix for that busser early this year...it's going to be the history-making "18-0 game"

[PlayMikeMotenMore]

Exactly - it's not just the size of the arena. It's a constellation of things.

None of those are schools I'd be looking to form a conference with.

Again, if it were just arena size than George Mason would be a great basketball program too.

But it's sad that Loyola has a smaller arena than all of those programs since there's such a rich history that their super huge sports-focused fanbase cares about.

And maybe there's an easier way to explain this. It would be like URI arguing to be a part of the Big East and then we'd have to try and explain ourselves as an overall basketball program. We aren't a program at that level either. It's not right wrong or indifferent - it just is what it is.

Like yeah - we're a significantly better program than DePaul, but it doesn't mean we'd make the Big East better.

Dayton? Sure. They'd be a fit. But Loyola was never the Dayton of the MVC. They had a year or two.

But the argument about media markets is kind of irrelevant with streaming and how people watch today. The only argument you can make is for recruiting - where you can tell a recruit from Chicago they can play a team in their city. But with 15+ teams in the conference, you can use that pitch for once every 2 years. So it's pretty pointless.

A few things on all these comments...
-Slight correction, Northern Illinois University is in the MAC, not the Missouri Valley Conference.
-Arena size is irrelevant. You build an arena to fit the needs and the demand. (what's the season ticket base, where do ticket holders live, what's the potential ticket base if the school consistently wins, should it be a multi-purpose facility, is there even land to build a larger arena, etc.)
-I wouldn't poo-poo the Missouri Valley Conference nor the Horizon League as conferences. People sound like snobby Big East blowhards when Butler and Creighton joined that league, right? Before those schools joined the that league, Big East slappies would claim that Horizon/MVC teams could never hack it in the rough-and-tumble Big East. That's proven to be wrong. (And Davidson has shown that they're more than capable of competing in the A10.)
-From a geography standpoint, Loyola makes zero sense joining the A10. But as we now know, geography means nothing in conferences these days.
-The only people who can speak to Loyola and its fan base and student engagement are Loyola people. It's a niche school in Chicago. It has never had a big following in Chicago and certainly not the surrounding area. It's Illinois and Notre Dame...and everybody else. And I don't think one can pass judgment on it as a fit for the A10 based on one lousy men's basketball season...just as I hope people wouldn't judge URI or Archie Miller based on 2022-23.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... 65,-87.488

"-Arena size is irrelevant. You build an arena to fit the needs and the demand. (what's the season ticket base, where do ticket holders live, what's the potential ticket base if the school consistently wins, should it be a multi-purpose facility, is there even land to build a larger arena, etc.)"

Season ticket base, where do ticket holders live, and what's the potential ticket base if the school consistently wins all seem like very important factors in deciding what conference a school belongs in. If a school doesn't have a big enough fanbase buying tickets they're not going to have the money to compete long-term in this conference. There's a reason why La Salle, Fordham, and Duquesne are consistently near the bottom, why Dayton and VCU are consistently near the top, and programs like St. Louis, Rhode Island, and Richmond are mid-pack programs that bounce all around the standings.

Arena size says a lot about a program. Part of the design process is studying what your fan base is and what it could be under optimal conditions. That Loyola has about 4500 seats for a home gym, with the same student enrollment as URI, in the third most populous city in the country, with no plans to expand, and an average attendance below UMass says everything about that program, and none of it is good

So we have a difference of opinion. I think how nice an arena is more important than the size of the arena. To me, that's more of a reflection of the university's commitment to its basketball program. Kudos to Loyola for reimagining and redesigning their basketball arena into a top-flight basketball arena. Loyola's campus is very difficult to get to for any alumni living in the suburbs, especially on weeknights.

In the same city, UIC plays in the former UIC Pavilion. UIC has 22K undergrads and their arena holds 9,500. I can guarantee you that 10 out of 10 people would tell you that Loyola's Gentile Center is a far better basketball arena.

Build an arena too big and you have the Mullins Center. Sure, it was filled in the Camby hey-days. But otherwise, it's a ghost town. St. John's is in NYC, enrollment 16,000 undergrads and has Carnesecca Arena with a capacity of 5,600. What does that say about St. John's program?

[ramster]

https://www.nj.com/sports/2023/12/rick- ... nt-no.html

Rick Pitino is not a fan of Gonzaga potentially joining the Big East: ‘100 percent no’
Updated: Dec. 17, 2023, 10:06 a.m.|Published: Dec. 17, 2023, 8:03 a.m.

So out of one side of his mouth, Undead Little Ricky says, "100 percent no." Out of the other side of his mouth, Undead Little Ricky says, "But if they want to join for basketball only, hey, let’s do it."

If he's quoted correctly, he contradicted himself in the same breath. Even for Undead Little Ricky, that's amazing.

From reading the article, I gathered he said "basketball only", because those dudes fly charter....not all of the other sports teams do.

I know folks are always on the "Gotcha, Ricky" hunt, but to bother to go back to a month old article, and then not even be whole about what he said, in order to take another swipe at him...seems like a reach. You hate the Rick, we get it ...

[RhowdyRam02]

A few things on all these comments...
-Slight correction, Northern Illinois University is in the MAC, not the Missouri Valley Conference.
-Arena size is irrelevant. You build an arena to fit the needs and the demand. (what's the season ticket base, where do ticket holders live, what's the potential ticket base if the school consistently wins, should it be a multi-purpose facility, is there even land to build a larger arena, etc.)
-I wouldn't poo-poo the Missouri Valley Conference nor the Horizon League as conferences. People sound like snobby Big East blowhards when Butler and Creighton joined that league, right? Before those schools joined the that league, Big East slappies would claim that Horizon/MVC teams could never hack it in the rough-and-tumble Big East. That's proven to be wrong. (And Davidson has shown that they're more than capable of competing in the A10.)
-From a geography standpoint, Loyola makes zero sense joining the A10. But as we now know, geography means nothing in conferences these days.
-The only people who can speak to Loyola and its fan base and student engagement are Loyola people. It's a niche school in Chicago. It has never had a big following in Chicago and certainly not the surrounding area. It's Illinois and Notre Dame...and everybody else. And I don't think one can pass judgment on it as a fit for the A10 based on one lousy men's basketball season...just as I hope people wouldn't judge URI or Archie Miller based on 2022-23.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... 65,-87.488

"-Arena size is irrelevant. You build an arena to fit the needs and the demand. (what's the season ticket base, where do ticket holders live, what's the potential ticket base if the school consistently wins, should it be a multi-purpose facility, is there even land to build a larger arena, etc.)"

Season ticket base, where do ticket holders live, and what's the potential ticket base if the school consistently wins all seem like very important factors in deciding what conference a school belongs in. If a school doesn't have a big enough fanbase buying tickets they're not going to have the money to compete long-term in this conference. There's a reason why La Salle, Fordham, and Duquesne are consistently near the bottom, why Dayton and VCU are consistently near the top, and programs like St. Louis, Rhode Island, and Richmond are mid-pack programs that bounce all around the standings.

Arena size says a lot about a program. Part of the design process is studying what your fan base is and what it could be under optimal conditions. That Loyola has about 4500 seats for a home gym, with the same student enrollment as URI, in the third most populous city in the country, with no plans to expand, and an average attendance below UMass says everything about that program, and none of it is good

So we have a difference of opinion. I think how nice an arena is more important than the size of the arena. To me, that's more of a reflection of the university's commitment to its basketball program. Kudos to Loyola for reimagining and redesigning their basketball arena into a top-flight basketball arena. Loyola's campus is very difficult to get to for any alumni living in the suburbs, especially on weeknights.

In the same city, UIC plays in the former UIC Pavilion. UIC has 22K undergrads and their arena holds 9,500. I can guarantee you that 10 out of 10 people would tell you that Loyola's Gentile Center is a far better basketball arena.

Build an arena too big and you have the Mullins Center. Sure, it was filled in the Camby hey-days. But otherwise, it's a ghost town. St. John's is in NYC, enrollment 16,000 undergrads and has Carnesecca Arena with a capacity of 5,600. What does that say about St. John's program?

It says they have access to, and a working relationship with, Madison Square Garden, so they can tailor their arena to various conditions

[ramster]

Yeah right, all I have donated to the University over the years is because I don't care about their best interest.
I have probably been a fan before you were even born.

I guess we should all bow to your arrogance that you know what is best for our program and smarter than all those decision makers.
My apologies I didn't realize that we were in the company of such brilliance.

As opposed to your brilliance? You wanted Hurley fired, you wanted Cox kept, you thought hiring Archie Miller wasn't realistic, and you think our destiny as an athletic program for a state flagship should be left to be decided by a handful of small Catholic colleges who haven't once brought anything to the Atlantic 10 table. Your thinking is small time and is against us moving forward

Not for nothing but you oppose the flagship university having branding in the major gateway to the state (TF Green) because in your opinion people are in a bad mood at the airport. That's so ridiculous it can't even be argued against. Talking down anyone else's intelligence might be a step too far. And 77 is clearly a massive fan the teardown on this topic is uncalled for.

Caught a glimpse of that giant Providence Friars Wall mural many times the past few months. Wishing we had one.

As you walk the decline corridor towards final exit Matunuck Oyster Bar has about 10 beautiful pictures on the wall showing how the oysters and vegetables are grown, harvested and prepared for customers to eat. Very nicely done and a nice welcome to RI. Perry Raso gets it.

Plus I don’t get this people in a bad mood thing at the airport. I find it a pleasant place. Enjoy time there. So easy to get to and they are improving the appearance along the Airport Connector for people visiting RI.

Love returning from a flight, going down the escalator, see all the people waiting at the bottom to hug loved ones and the piano player is such a wonderful, unique, only in RI touch. Even returning at midnight the piano player is there. And at Christmas time it’s a busy but great place.

I hope we get a promotion there someday.

[bigappleram]

As opposed to your brilliance? You wanted Hurley fired, you wanted Cox kept, you thought hiring Archie Miller wasn't realistic, and you think our destiny as an athletic program for a state flagship should be left to be decided by a handful of small Catholic colleges who haven't once brought anything to the Atlantic 10 table. Your thinking is small time and is against us moving forward

Not for nothing but you oppose the flagship university having branding in the major gateway to the state (TF Green) because in your opinion people are in a bad mood at the airport. That's so ridiculous it can't even be argued against. Talking down anyone else's intelligence might be a step too far. And 77 is clearly a massive fan the teardown on this topic is uncalled for.

Caught a glimpse of that giant Providence Friars Wall mural many times the past few months. Wishing we had one.

As you walk the decline corridor towards final exit Matunuck Oyster Bar has about 10 beautiful pictures on the wall showing how the oysters and vegetables are grown, harvested and prepared for customers to eat. Very nicely done and a nice welcome to RI. Perry Raso gets it.

Plus I don’t get this people in a bad mood thing at the airport. I find it a pleasant place. Enjoy time there. So easy to get to and they are improving the appearance along the Airport Connector for people visiting RI.

Love returning from a flight, going down the escalator, see all the people waiting at the bottom to hug loved ones and the piano player is such a wonderful, unique, only in RI touch. Even returning at midnight the piano player is there. And at Christmas time it’s a busy but great place.

I hope we get a promotion there someday.

Nobody gets the "everyone is in a bad mood so the advertising doesn't work" comment...it's right up there with 72s Jimmy Baron free throw advice as one for the ages.