2012's Rebuild vs. Today

[Jersey77]

Now that we completed our roster for this season, not a bad time to revisit this thread.
Our core players for 2013-2014 were: Munford, EC, Biruta, Martin, and TJ.
Also, incoming recruits for the following season were JT (4* top 100) and Jarvis.
That following season 2014-2015 we finished T2nd in the A10.

How would you compare our situation now to then?

Let’s see how this season goes before making a comparison.

This is what we do in the off-season, then why have any predictions at all.

[reef]

Yeah the 13-14 season set us up for future success, I’m hopeful our current group can come close to that

[SGreenwell]

I don't know if we have anyone as good as the four players in that top four, but I think our depth might be better than that squad. That being said, it's almost always better in college and pro hoops to have more high-end talent and less depth, vs. a bunch of average players. That particular team was especially thin, since player 6 onward from the depth chart couldn't really play at the mid-major level. I'd probably be happy / okay if this year's squad was close to .500, either a couple games better or worse, like that one was. Miller was able to get Leggett out of a pretty severe sophomore slump, so maybe someone else will take a similar jump in production level from their previous team.

[Jersey77]

I don't know if we have anyone as good as the four players in that top four, but I think our depth might be better than that squad. That being said, it's almost always better in college and pro hoops to have more high-end talent and less depth, vs. a bunch of average players. That particular team was especially thin, since player 6 onward from the depth chart couldn't really play at the mid-major level. I'd probably be happy / okay if this year's squad was close to .500, either a couple games better or worse, like that one was. Miller was able to get Leggett out of a pretty severe sophomore slump, so maybe someone else will take a similar jump in production level from their previous team.

Can't really disagree SG, your post makes sense to me.
We must really see a lot of talent and upside from our players this season in order to match Hurley's huge jump from year 2 to 3, contending for the 2014-2015 title.

[theblueram]

I don't know if we have anyone as good as the four players in that top four, but I think our depth might be better than that squad. That being said, it's almost always better in college and pro hoops to have more high-end talent and less depth, vs. a bunch of average players. That particular team was especially thin, since player 6 onward from the depth chart couldn't really play at the mid-major level. I'd probably be happy / okay if this year's squad was close to .500, either a couple games better or worse, like that one was. Miller was able to get Leggett out of a pretty severe sophomore slump, so maybe someone else will take a similar jump in production level from their previous team.

SG
you do realize our whole home schedule is Q3 or Q4, right? Most of our conference games are also Q3 or Q4. If we are .500 on this schedule, this team will be worse than last years.

[reef]

I don't know if we have anyone as good as the four players in that top four, but I think our depth might be better than that squad. That being said, it's almost always better in college and pro hoops to have more high-end talent and less depth, vs. a bunch of average players. That particular team was especially thin, since player 6 onward from the depth chart couldn't really play at the mid-major level. I'd probably be happy / okay if this year's squad was close to .500, either a couple games better or worse, like that one was. Miller was able to get Leggett out of a pretty severe sophomore slump, so maybe someone else will take a similar jump in production level from their previous team.

Can't really disagree SG, your post makes sense to me.
We must really see a lot of talent and upside from our players this season in order to match Hurley's huge jump from year 2 to 3, contending for the 2014-2015 title.

That’s what I have been thinking is the big jump from year 2-3 that’s the year hopefully postseason , this season is big improvement on the win total of last years 9

[Jersey77]

Blue Man now revisiting this thread since you started it.

Granted, Hurley struggled in season 2 but we did have some pieces to set the stage for year 3.
EC and Martin were only freshmen and we had (F)Biruta.
We picked up recruits Jared and Jarvis.

In season 3 Hurley won 23 games and 13-5 A10, losing to #2 seed Stanford in the NIT 2nd round.

As of now, how do you think we compare, and do we have those core pieces to make that big jump next season?

Yes still a long way to go and all speculation, but why not.

[NYGFan_Section208]

Blue Man now revisiting this thread since you started it.

Granted, Hurley struggled in season 2 but we did have some pieces to set the stage for year 3.
EC and Martin were only freshmen and we had (F)Biruta.
We picked up recruits Jared and Jarvis.

In season 3 Hurley won 23 games and 13-5 A10, losing to #2 seed Stanford in the NIT 2nd round.

As of now, how do you think we compare, and do we have those core pieces intact to make that big jump next season?

Wait...was the Stanford game the one where Hurls pitched an absolute nutty, ripped his jacket off and swung it all over the place?

[Jersey77]

Blue Man now revisiting this thread since you started it.

Granted, Hurley struggled in season 2 but we did have some pieces to set the stage for year 3.
EC and Martin were only freshmen and we had (F)Biruta.
We picked up recruits Jared and Jarvis.

In season 3 Hurley won 23 games and 13-5 A10, losing to #2 seed Stanford in the NIT 2nd round.

As of now, how do you think we compare, and do we have those core pieces intact to make that big jump next season?

Wait...was the Stanford game the one where Hurls pitched an absolute nutty, ripped his jacket off and swung it all over the place?

[RhowdyRam02]

Blue Man now revisiting this thread since you started it.

Granted, Hurley struggled in season 2 but we did have some pieces to set the stage for year 3.
EC and Martin were only freshmen and we had (F)Biruta.
We picked up recruits Jared and Jarvis.

In season 3 Hurley won 23 games and 13-5 A10, losing to #2 seed Stanford in the NIT 2nd round.

As of now, how do you think we compare, and do we have those core pieces intact to make that big jump next season?

Wait...was the Stanford game the one where Hurls pitched an absolute nutty, ripped his jacket off and swung it all over the place?

The one you're referring to is Stanford II - The Refs Strike Again

[NYGFan_Section208]

Blue Man now revisiting this thread since you started it.

Granted, Hurley struggled in season 2 but we did have some pieces to set the stage for year 3.
EC and Martin were only freshmen and we had (F)Biruta.
We picked up recruits Jared and Jarvis.

In season 3 Hurley won 23 games and 13-5 A10, losing to #2 seed Stanford in the NIT 2nd round.

As of now, how do you think we compare, and do we have those core pieces intact to make that big jump next season?

Wait...was the Stanford game the one where Hurls pitched an absolute nutty, ripped his jacket off and swung it all over the place?

The one you're referring to is Stanford II - The Refs Strike Again

I'm glad Dan's got much better control these days (mostly for his own health's sake), but Stanford II, as far as coach explosions go...well,

[Billyboy78]

Blue Man now revisiting this thread since you started it.

Granted, Hurley struggled in season 2 but we did have some pieces to set the stage for year 3.
EC and Martin were only freshmen and we had (F)Biruta.
We picked up recruits Jared and Jarvis.

In season 3 Hurley won 23 games and 13-5 A10, losing to #2 seed Stanford in the NIT 2nd round.

As of now, how do you think we compare, and do we have those core pieces to make that big jump next season?

Yes still a long way to go and all speculation, but why not.

I was thinking about this last night at halftime during the Ring of Honor inductions. My thoughts were that we don't have any players that are even close to Tyson, Cat and ARD on the team now. But to answer your question....no, we don't have anybody close to guys like Jared and EC either.

[bigappleram]

While we might not have Tysons or ECs, we at least should have a semblance of Cofields, Ivey Jones or Samuels (made NCAA and won a game).

I do think guys like Zek, House and Bilau have the ceiling to be key parts of a pretty good team. Jury probably out on everyone else but I'd put Fuchs, Estevez and Foumena in a benefit of doubt category based on them all being FR and too early to tell.

Last year we had a massive talent disparity vs our opponents. This year that simply isn't the case. We have the talent to be better than we have been thus far; this is on Archie.

He has to get cohesion, role definition/minutes distribution and other issues fixed stat. And he has to get his guys to play harder for him.

[reef]

Blue Man now revisiting this thread since you started it.

Granted, Hurley struggled in season 2 but we did have some pieces to set the stage for year 3.
EC and Martin were only freshmen and we had (F)Biruta.
We picked up recruits Jared and Jarvis.

In season 3 Hurley won 23 games and 13-5 A10, losing to #2 seed Stanford in the NIT 2nd round.

As of now, how do you think we compare, and do we have those core pieces to make that big jump next season?

Yes still a long way to go and all speculation, but why not.

Good to revisit this 77 ! I’m definitely more pessimistic now watching this team over the last couple of weeks and feel we won’t have as good of a year 3 as DH did , hope I prove to be wrong

[Blue Man]

If there's one thing you can say about Hurley, it's that no matter the level of talent, the game, the moon, the tides, the alignment of the planets...his teams always played hard.

I can't say that about Archie.

Last year's team you at least saw cohesive offense, and I figured you'd see growth in other areas as his system take shape.

After the past week, I saw guys who just flat out don't give a shit.

Archie may be a great coach - as far as X's and O's go, but his kids for the last week have clearly not wanted to play for him. I don't know what's going on behind the scenes, but on the court it's flat out unacceptable.

Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard.

That's where I think we are. When Dan's teams didn't try, and I can think of only 2 times they didn't, he pulled them off the floor, took the L, and taught the lesson. Archie's coaching/rotations/substitutions in the past 2 games has been reprehensible to say the least.

The at-large dream is 100000% dead this year. Now it's conference play and the A10 tournament as our only hope...again. This is sad, because this is a pretty early elimination - a 5th loss in 10 games.

I really thought Archie would turn this around. I had us at 9-4 this OOC - figuring we'd stumble somewhere but take at least 1 out of NW/WSU/PC. Maybe drop C of C on the road. But the was this has shaken out - losing to Brown. Losing to a C of C team that is NOWHERE close to who anyone expected them to be...it's unacceptable.

The way those kids looked the last couple games - I got a feeling it's going to get worse. The coach needs to go earn his paycheck and get these kids to give a shit again.

[RIFan]

Maybe there is something to that report about a physical altercation between starters…we have really sucked since then.

When you are making wholesale changes like we did last year, that is a lot of personalities to add at one time and all of them you really don’t know.

[section(105)]

Archie Miller career coaching record, 220-148 (.598) just saying.

[RIFan]

Everyone on here wants Archie to be the Archie from Dayton when the A10 was getting 4-5 bids and the 1 time portal rule and NIL weren’t a thing. He is 81-85 in his last 5+ season coaching. I am sure there are many reasons for it, but that’s the record.

[SGreenwell]

If there's one thing you can say about Hurley, it's that no matter the level of talent, the game, the moon, the tides, the alignment of the planets...his teams always played hard.

I can't say that about Archie.

Last year's team you at least saw cohesive offense, and I figured you'd see growth in other areas as his system take shape.

After the past week, I saw guys who just flat out don't give a shit.

Archie may be a great coach - as far as X's and O's go, but his kids for the last week have clearly not wanted to play for him. I don't know what's going on behind the scenes, but on the court it's flat out unacceptable.

Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard.

That's where I think we are. When Dan's teams didn't try, and I can think of only 2 times they didn't, he pulled them off the floor, took the L, and taught the lesson. Archie's coaching/rotations/substitutions in the past 2 games has been reprehensible to say the least.

The at-large dream is 100000% dead this year. Now it's conference play and the A10 tournament as our only hope...again. This is sad, because this is a pretty early elimination - a 5th loss in 10 games.

I really thought Archie would turn this around. I had us at 9-4 this OOC - figuring we'd stumble somewhere but take at least 1 out of NW/WSU/PC. Maybe drop C of C on the road. But the was this has shaken out - losing to Brown. Losing to a C of C team that is NOWHERE close to who anyone expected them to be...it's unacceptable.

The way those kids looked the last couple games - I got a feeling it's going to get worse. The coach needs to go earn his paycheck and get these kids to give a shit again.

I think this is kind of judging with the benefit of knowing how things turned out with Hurley, though. We do have game threads from Hurley's second year, such as the 2-point loss against Detroit Mercy that came on the heels of a 1-point loss to Providence and a 7-point loss to George Mason. It is oddly amusing how closely the complaints track - can't shoot FT, lack of defensive intensity in the final 20 minutes, and seemingly more criticism against a European big man than any other player on the team.

Saying that Miller's tenure will play out like Hurley's is obviously silly. I still think he'll do well here, but I can't fault people for being restless after a couple poor efforts. I think the talent level of the 2023-24 team is obviously better than last year's team, but we're still light on depth and experienced rotation players. Progress isn't linear - Players can improve over the course of a season, but that still means they might look like dogshit or lacking effort in a particular game.

[RhowdyRam02]

I can't believe people are saying Archie should be in the hot seat in year 2. Dan took over a much more drastic rebuild on a program level considering we hadn't been to a tournament in 13 seasons when he took over and he had to deal with an APR nightmare when recruiting but let's not act like this was a much better scenario that Archie walked into.

We let David Cox stay a year too long, which put everything in a worse spot than they needed to be. Hurley didn't inherit much, but he did inherit TJ who ended up being a necessary glue guy for his first NIT team in year 3, which is much more than you can say Archie will have.

If it took Dan Hurley three years to make an NIT and five to make an NCAA, maybe we should give Archie more than a year and a third to start talking about hot seats. Honestly we shouldn't even be talking about a hot seat until the end of next year and only in the context of "If Archie doesn't make the tournament next year (year four) than it might be time to move on if things aren't going in the right direction

[rhodyram22]

I can't believe people are saying Archie should be in the hot seat in year 2. Dan took over a much more drastic rebuild on a program level considering we hadn't been to a tournament in 13 seasons when he took over and he had to deal with an APR nightmare when recruiting but let's not act like this was a much better scenario that Archie walked into.

We let David Cox stay a year too long, which put everything in a worse spot than they needed to be. Hurley didn't inherit much, but he did inherit TJ who ended up being a necessary glue guy for his first NIT team in year 3, which is much more than you can say Archie will have.

If it took Dan Hurley three years to make an NIT and five to make an NCAA, maybe we should give Archie more than a year and a third to start talking about hot seats. Honestly we shouldn't even be talking about a hot seat until the end of next year and only in the context of "If Archie doesn't make the tournament next year (year four) than it might be time to move on if things aren't going in the right direction

Are you even watching these games? We look terrible. That win vs Yale doesn't mean shit anymore. It's a win NOW situation, not later. We don't even know if half of these players are going to stay next year.

[RhowdyRam02]

I can't believe people are saying Archie should be in the hot seat in year 2. Dan took over a much more drastic rebuild on a program level considering we hadn't been to a tournament in 13 seasons when he took over and he had to deal with an APR nightmare when recruiting but let's not act like this was a much better scenario that Archie walked into.

We let David Cox stay a year too long, which put everything in a worse spot than they needed to be. Hurley didn't inherit much, but he did inherit TJ who ended up being a necessary glue guy for his first NIT team in year 3, which is much more than you can say Archie will have.

If it took Dan Hurley three years to make an NIT and five to make an NCAA, maybe we should give Archie more than a year and a third to start talking about hot seats. Honestly we shouldn't even be talking about a hot seat until the end of next year and only in the context of "If Archie doesn't make the tournament next year (year four) than it might be time to move on if things aren't going in the right direction

Are you even watching these games? We look terrible. That win vs Yale doesn't mean shit anymore. It's a win NOW situation, not later. We don't even know if half of these players are going to stay next year.

Yes, we look terrible. You also don't talk about firing a coach in year fucking 2 if you have any clue unless that coach is on the Jerry D level. Even Cox, as bad as he was, deserved a third year. There's no such thing as a win now situation in year 2 of a college coach or you'll never get another coach worth anything and no player would ever come here

[Rhody15]

Archie's seat is about as cold as we are from the FT line.

[rhodyram22]

I can't believe people are saying Archie should be in the hot seat in year 2. Dan took over a much more drastic rebuild on a program level considering we hadn't been to a tournament in 13 seasons when he took over and he had to deal with an APR nightmare when recruiting but let's not act like this was a much better scenario that Archie walked into.

We let David Cox stay a year too long, which put everything in a worse spot than they needed to be. Hurley didn't inherit much, but he did inherit TJ who ended up being a necessary glue guy for his first NIT team in year 3, which is much more than you can say Archie will have.

If it took Dan Hurley three years to make an NIT and five to make an NCAA, maybe we should give Archie more than a year and a third to start talking about hot seats. Honestly we shouldn't even be talking about a hot seat until the end of next year and only in the context of "If Archie doesn't make the tournament next year (year four) than it might be time to move on if things aren't going in the right direction

Are you even watching these games? We look terrible. That win vs Yale doesn't mean shit anymore. It's a win NOW situation, not later. We don't even know if half of these players are going to stay next year.

Yes, we look terrible. You also don't talk about firing a coach in year fucking 2 if you have any clue unless that coach is on the Jerry D level. Even Cox, as bad as he was, deserved a third year. There's no such thing as a win now situation in year 2 of a college coach or you'll never get another coach worth anything and no player would ever come here

I'm not saying we need to make the NIT this year. I expected significant improvement from last year, and I don't see it. The Yale win was great, but that's all we've got. Beating Fairfield and Wagner doesn't prove anything to me, same with JWU.

[RhowdyRam02]

Archie's seat is about as cold as we are from the FT line.

One of them should be much hotter than it is. For the benefit of 22, that's the FT line, not Archie's seat

[section(105)]

I am not suggesting hot seat, just that the hire was touted everywhere as great hire(including me)and yes we were expecting more like the Dayton results not the Indiana results. Yes, maybe overacting to last few games.

[adam914]

There are a couple things I struggle to understand about the two ideas that 1.) half these guys might not even be here next year and 2.) that we are being hurt by the portal changes.

1.) In order for half these guys to not be here next year, they would all almost certainly have to sit out a year since waivers seem harder and harder to come by. I just have a hard time believing many are going to be willing to do that. Unless the idea is that Archie will push them out and leave them no choice? (not sure I see that happening for many of them either)

2.) Archie has only been here for less than two seasons so far. So the only players he has lost in the portal are the ones who played here last year and left. So in order to already be saying that the portal is hurting us, wouldn't that mean you have to believe we'd be better off with last year's roster than this year's roster? Which would be insane to actually think. If anything, the portal changes have actually helped us because without it we'd be even worse than we already are which is depressing to think about!

[RhowdyRam02]

I am not suggesting hot seat, just that the hire was touted everywhere as great hire(including me)and yes we were expecting more like the Dayton results not the Indiana results. Yes, maybe overacting to last few games.

But what about those Dayton results? His first year's team had 11 guys he inherited from an NIT team and he went to the NIT in his first year. His second year they went 7-9 in the A10. He didn't make the NCAA tournament until year 3 at Dayton and he still had 3 players on that roster he inherited.

People want Dayton results, but he didn't make the tournament until year 3 and this rebuild was a lot worse than what he took over in Dayton. So as I said earlier, there should be no talk of a hot seat until the end of next year, and only in the context of we need a tournament or a team on the verge in year four. And that's at the most severe. It shouldn't be talked about before conference play starts in year 2

[Blue Man]

I can't believe people are saying Archie should be in the hot seat in year 2. Dan took over a much more drastic rebuild on a program level considering we hadn't been to a tournament in 13 seasons when he took over and he had to deal with an APR nightmare when recruiting but let's not act like this was a much better scenario that Archie walked into.

We let David Cox stay a year too long, which put everything in a worse spot than they needed to be. Hurley didn't inherit much, but he did inherit TJ who ended up being a necessary glue guy for his first NIT team in year 3, which is much more than you can say Archie will have.

If it took Dan Hurley three years to make an NIT and five to make an NCAA, maybe we should give Archie more than a year and a third to start talking about hot seats. Honestly we shouldn't even be talking about a hot seat until the end of next year and only in the context of "If Archie doesn't make the tournament next year (year four) than it might be time to move on if things aren't going in the right direction

Are you even watching these games? We look terrible. That win vs Yale doesn't mean shit anymore. It's a win NOW situation, not later. We don't even know if half of these players are going to stay next year.

So you would've fired Dan Hurley mid season 2016?

Yeah, we looked terrible. In December. Of Year 2.

Holy crap is it going to be Baron 2.0 all over again?

I mean I'm down and down bad after what we've had to watch, but I'll jump up on the wall again if need be.

Holy crap why do we have to be so dumb?

[Jersey77]

If there's one thing you can say about Hurley, it's that no matter the level of talent, the game, the moon, the tides, the alignment of the planets...his teams always played hard.

I can't say that about Archie.

Last year's team you at least saw cohesive offense, and I figured you'd see growth in other areas as his system take shape.

After the past week, I saw guys who just flat out don't give a shit.

Archie may be a great coach - as far as X's and O's go, but his kids for the last week have clearly not wanted to play for him. I don't know what's going on behind the scenes, but on the court it's flat out unacceptable.

Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard.

That's where I think we are. When Dan's teams didn't try, and I can think of only 2 times they didn't, he pulled them off the floor, took the L, and taught the lesson. Archie's coaching/rotations/substitutions in the past 2 games has been reprehensible to say the least.

The at-large dream is 100000% dead this year. Now it's conference play and the A10 tournament as our only hope...again. This is sad, because this is a pretty early elimination - a 5th loss in 10 games.

I really thought Archie would turn this around. I had us at 9-4 this OOC - figuring we'd stumble somewhere but take at least 1 out of NW/WSU/PC. Maybe drop C of C on the road. But the was this has shaken out - losing to Brown. Losing to a C of C team that is NOWHERE close to who anyone expected them to be...it's unacceptable.

The way those kids looked the last couple games - I got a feeling it's going to get worse. The coach needs to go earn his paycheck and get these kids to give a shit again.

Blue Man don't resign from being president of the Archie Fan Club just yet, it is still too soon.

Yeah, I may be a little partial to Hurley because he is from Jersey and played at Seton Hall about a mile from where I grew up.
Remember though his 2nd season he only won 14 games and finished 10th in the A10.
Still, he had talented players returning, some nice recruits, and a strong enough core to win 23 games in his 3rd season.
There is a chance that may be the case for us in 24-25, don't know yet.

Much will depend upon how strong we finish this season and who decides to return.
Archie isn't close to being on any hot seat, that talk is ridiculous at this time.

[RhowdyRam02]

I can't believe people are saying Archie should be in the hot seat in year 2. Dan took over a much more drastic rebuild on a program level considering we hadn't been to a tournament in 13 seasons when he took over and he had to deal with an APR nightmare when recruiting but let's not act like this was a much better scenario that Archie walked into.

We let David Cox stay a year too long, which put everything in a worse spot than they needed to be. Hurley didn't inherit much, but he did inherit TJ who ended up being a necessary glue guy for his first NIT team in year 3, which is much more than you can say Archie will have.

If it took Dan Hurley three years to make an NIT and five to make an NCAA, maybe we should give Archie more than a year and a third to start talking about hot seats. Honestly we shouldn't even be talking about a hot seat until the end of next year and only in the context of "If Archie doesn't make the tournament next year (year four) than it might be time to move on if things aren't going in the right direction

Are you even watching these games? We look terrible. That win vs Yale doesn't mean shit anymore. It's a win NOW situation, not later. We don't even know if half of these players are going to stay next year.

So you would've fired Dan Hurley mid season 2016?

Yeah, we looked terrible. In December. Of Year 2.

Holy crap is it going to be Baron 2.0 all over again?

I mean I'm down and down bad after what we've had to watch, but I'll jump up on the wall again if need be.

Holy crap why do we have to be so dumb?

URI's December in year 2 of Hurley:

50-49 loss vs Providence (KenPom 48), 70-68 loss at Detroit (195), 62-45 win vs New Hampshire (328), 77-64 loss vs Southern Miss (64).

1-3 for the month. And we finished that year with a KenPom of 115 even though our record was 14-18 (5-11)

[steveystuds06]

Are you even watching these games? We look terrible. That win vs Yale doesn't mean shit anymore. It's a win NOW situation, not later. We don't even know if half of these players are going to stay next year.

Yes, we look terrible. You also don't talk about firing a coach in year fucking 2 if you have any clue unless that coach is on the Jerry D level. Even Cox, as bad as he was, deserved a third year. There's no such thing as a win now situation in year 2 of a college coach or you'll never get another coach worth anything and no player would ever come here

I'm not saying we need to make the NIT this year. I expected significant improvement from last year, and I don't see it. The Yale win was great, but that's all we've got. Beating Fairfield and Wagner doesn't prove anything to me, same with JWU.

"I understand your concerns. I expected better results as well. So far, the truth is we have one horrible loss: Brown. It sucked. Yesterday sucked. But overall, we have lost to one team we shouldn't have. If we keep playing worse and worse, and Archie loses the team, then I'm done defending him. We can't have another restart next year, but I don't think we will.

I keep saying to myself, imagine Hammond, Cam, Farrell, Green, Fuchs, Foumena, etc., in two years. I think that could be a really good team. Cam and Hammond could be one of the better backcourts once they develop. Connor's shot is a thing of beauty as well... As much hate as he gets, Fuchs could be a monster by junior year if he keeps improving. But none of that matters if Archie is losing his team and people bail, and that's my biggest worry

[Rhody Guy]

Baron 3.0!

[RIFan]

[/quote]
I keep saying to myself, imagine Hammond, Cam, Farrell, Green, Fuchs, Foumena, etc., in two years. I think that could be a really good team. Cam and Hammond could be one of the better backcourts once they develop. Connor's shot is a thing of beauty as well... As much hate as he gets, Fuchs could be a monster by junior year if he keeps improving. But none of that matters if Archie is losing his team and people bail, and that's my biggest worry
[/quote]

If this was pre 1 time portal and NIL I would agree, but pessimistic me says those players you are hoping to build around in 2-3 years are also the least like to be here if they are as good as we hope (except Green). I truly hope my take is wrong.

[BruceW]

Hi everyone and Happy Holidays to all.
After watching the latest games against Brown and College of Charleston. Many viewpoints have surfaced. I personally have never been an Archie Miller fan. Always thought his was an excellent X’s and O’s coach. But that alone is just a part of what a head coach does. When a team plays bad and then follows up with more of the same. The coach is going to get the brunt of it in college sports. Should he be on the hot seat now ? Yes* . * only if team continues downhill. Let’s remember that Archie took a year off I believe after leaving Indiana “ to clear his head”. So we can read into every scenario and it won’t change who Archie is a person. His best chance this year is going with a four guard and one big man. Guards must play hard and fast. Archie is being WELL PAID. to turn us around. Up to now the signs for the future are still dimly lit.

[reef]

You never really know what you get when you take 5 guys from the portal or whatever it was then try to get them to play as a team , maybe the players are worse than we or the coaches thought they would be ?

Anyway things aren’t looking too good and it’s early in his tenure let’s see how this team improves as the season progresses

[Blue Man]

If there's one thing you can say about Hurley, it's that no matter the level of talent, the game, the moon, the tides, the alignment of the planets...his teams always played hard.

I can't say that about Archie.

Last year's team you at least saw cohesive offense, and I figured you'd see growth in other areas as his system take shape.

After the past week, I saw guys who just flat out don't give a shit.

Archie may be a great coach - as far as X's and O's go, but his kids for the last week have clearly not wanted to play for him. I don't know what's going on behind the scenes, but on the court it's flat out unacceptable.

Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard.

That's where I think we are. When Dan's teams didn't try, and I can think of only 2 times they didn't, he pulled them off the floor, took the L, and taught the lesson. Archie's coaching/rotations/substitutions in the past 2 games has been reprehensible to say the least.

The at-large dream is 100000% dead this year. Now it's conference play and the A10 tournament as our only hope...again. This is sad, because this is a pretty early elimination - a 5th loss in 10 games.

I really thought Archie would turn this around. I had us at 9-4 this OOC - figuring we'd stumble somewhere but take at least 1 out of NW/WSU/PC. Maybe drop C of C on the road. But the was this has shaken out - losing to Brown. Losing to a C of C team that is NOWHERE close to who anyone expected them to be...it's unacceptable.

The way those kids looked the last couple games - I got a feeling it's going to get worse. The coach needs to go earn his paycheck and get these kids to give a shit again.

Blue Man don't resign from being president of the Archie Fan Club just yet, it is still too soon.

Yeah, I may be a little partial to Hurley because he is from Jersey and played at Seton Hall about a mile from where I grew up.
Remember though his 2nd season he only won 14 games and finished 10th in the A10.
Still, he had talented players returning, some nice recruits, and a strong enough core to win 23 games in his 3rd season.
There is a chance that may be the case for us in 24-25, don't know yet.

Much will depend upon how strong we finish this season and who decides to return.
Archie isn't close to being on any hot seat, that talk is ridiculous at this time.

I am for sure not resigning. He's a brilliant X's and O's guy, and easily the highest profile coach we've brought in since Jim Harrick.

He's not like Dan in Hurley's sense of "everything has to operate at a championship level" and that attention to detail. Archie is of the "when we're winning everything will fix itself" philosophy, which is understandable and I agree with that to a degree.

Last year and this year, you can see that we're getting open looks, the offense flows, the transition works, and until recently the defense had forced teams into poor shots. So I'm on board with all of that.

We have talent, and we have that talent because Archie and staff have brought that talent here.

What is clear that in the last week, that talent has flat out not wanted to work hard - and looks like they don't care. That is where it becomes an issue of coaching and motivation.

With the rumblings of turmoil behind the scenes, or issues between Fuchs/House - it does bring about questions. Are the players seeing what some of us are and questioning rotations and playing time for certain guys? Do guys not want to play on the floor with other guys?

Archie has to figure out how to motivate his guys and get them to come together. Sooner rather than later.

None of this is an indictment of Archie's coaching ability. But it's a fair criticism of an obvious problem. Like when players are in a rut, coaches can get in one too. I think he'll get out of it, and the "is Arch the guy" questions are as overblown as they are stupid.

But the problems this week have come from the top, so it's on the top guy to fix it.

[PeterRamTime]

It's just way too early. We are in essentially the same boat as we were in Hurley's second year.

Wildly inconsistent with a group that hasn't played together long.

We thought we would be way better than we ended up being that year. We had EC and Hass and a bunch of transfers that had sat out a year that we were excited about and it didn't immediately translate to a good team.

It's easy to feel super down about us, but it's also the same team that has flashed a lot this year.

Inexperienced group mixed with some injuries, absences and an ineligible player can make you pretty inconsistent early.

That's not excusing losing to Brown, but that stuff happens in college basketball and almost every team at every level has ups and downs throughout the year.

Right now it's just sit back and see what happens time because it's impossible to project how the year goes. Almost every team has had head scratching weeks or games.

For instance, No.15 Miami gets blown out 90-63 to Colorado yesterday...Colorado is good, but Miami has no business getting beat like that. It's a shocking head scratching "wtf is going on" game that happened to a really good team.

Bryant held FAU to 52 points somehow and then FAU goes and scores 90+ in basically every game since against teams vastly superior to Bryant.

There are hundreds of examples like that. So many up and down teams so it's not surprising that we are incredibly up and down this early in the season with a group this new to each other. Not excusing, just pointing out that it's silly to wave the white flag this early.

We could lose the rest of the games on our schedule or go on a tear and finish top 4 in the league. It's all within the realm of possibility. College basketball makes no sense.

Our goals are still there

Look good by the end of the year and at least have a winning record.

[Jersey77]

It's just way too early. We are in essentially the same boat as we were in Hurley's second year.

Wildly inconsistent with a group that hasn't played together long.

We thought we would be way better than we ended up being that year. We had EC and Hass and a bunch of transfers that had sat out a year that we were excited about and it didn't immediately translate to a good team.

It's easy to feel super down about us, but it's also the same team that has flashed a lot this year.

Inexperienced group mixed with some injuries, absences and an ineligible player can make you pretty inconsistent early.

That's not excusing losing to Brown, but that stuff happens in college basketball and almost every team at every level has ups and downs throughout the year.

Right now it's just sit back and see what happens time because it's impossible to project how the year goes. Almost every team has had head scratching weeks or games.

For instance, No.15 Miami gets blown out 90-63 to Colorado yesterday...Colorado is good, but Miami has no business getting beat like that. It's a shocking head scratching "wtf is going on" game that happened to a really good team.

Bryant held FAU to 52 points somehow and then FAU goes and scores 90+ in basically every game since against teams vastly superior to Bryant.

There are hundreds of examples like that. So many up and down teams so it's not surprising that we are incredibly up and down this early in the season with a group this new to each other. Not excusing, just pointing out that it's silly to wave the white flag this early.

We could lose the rest of the games on our schedule or go on a tear and finish top 4 in the league. It's all within the realm of possibility. College basketball makes no sense.

Our goals are still there

Look good by the end of the year and at least have a winning record.

Yes PRT don't really disagree, but even if we have a losing conference record, I still won't trash the staff or the players.
I predicted 8-10 and if that is how we finish, depending on how competitive the games are, I will be okay with that.
Bring back the core players, along with the upside of our younger players, I expect 24-25 to be a totally different story.

I felt that some of the expectations this season from our posters were a little unrealistic, but I can understand their enthusiasm.
Let's face it, a rebuild takes time, especially from where we started out.

[section(105)]

Always liked the notation coaching is a blend of the Xs and Os as well as the Jimmies and Joes.

[Billyboy78]

Regarding how many of our players would have to sit if they transferred, I believe there are only 3....Weston, Green and Zek. All other players are either HS recruits, JC transfers or 4th year students (if they are on track to graduate, they wouldn't have to sit). I wonder if Weston might even be able to get a waiver with whatever situation he's going through right now. Although I think it's very unlikely, a mass exodus is not out of the question.

[RhowdyRam02]

The other thing is, as bad as the Brown game was, we're pretty much right where most of us predicted. We're 5-5 with 3 more non-conference games left. I predicted we'd go 7-6, the average was 8-5. Going 3-0 isn't out of the question considering Delaware on a neutral court is a toss up and we're favored against Northeastern and New Hampshire. I don't know, I guess I'm not really sure what people thought 8-5 would look like with this non-conference schedule? This is pretty much exactly what I thought except we beat Yale and lost to Brown

[Jersey77]

Regarding how many of our players would have to sit if they transferred, I believe there are only 3....Weston, Green and Zek. All other players are either HS recruits, JC transfers or 4th year students (if they are on track to graduate, they wouldn't have to sit). I wonder if Weston might even be able to get a waiver with whatever situation he's going through right now. Although I think it's very unlikely, a mass exodus is not out of the question.

Actually 78, this is also Green's 4th year, don't know his status and very doubtful he would leave.
Like you I don't see a mass exodus after this season.

[PeterRamTime]

The other thing is, as bad as the Brown game was, we're pretty much right where most of us predicted. We're 5-5 with 3 more non-conference games left. I predicted we'd go 7-6, the average was 8-5. Going 3-0 isn't out of the question considering Delaware on a neutral court is a toss up and we're favored against Northeastern and New Hampshire. I don't know, I guess I'm not really sure what people thought 8-5 would look like with this non-conference schedule? This is pretty much exactly what I thought except we beat Yale and lost to Brown

Yeah let's just go 3-0 please...

[theblueram]

The other thing is, as bad as the Brown game was, we're pretty much right where most of us predicted. We're 5-5 with 3 more non-conference games left. I predicted we'd go 7-6, the average was 8-5. Going 3-0 isn't out of the question considering Delaware on a neutral court is a toss up and we're favored against Northeastern and New Hampshire. I don't know, I guess I'm not really sure what people thought 8-5 would look like with this non-conference schedule? This is pretty much exactly what I thought except we beat Yale and lost to Brown

I predicted a loss against Wagner and a win against Brown. Even though I predicted 8-5, doesn't mean I'm happy with it.

[rhodyram22]

Yes, we look terrible. You also don't talk about firing a coach in year fucking 2 if you have any clue unless that coach is on the Jerry D level. Even Cox, as bad as he was, deserved a third year. There's no such thing as a win now situation in year 2 of a college coach or you'll never get another coach worth anything and no player would ever come here

I'm not saying we need to make the NIT this year. I expected significant improvement from last year, and I don't see it. The Yale win was great, but that's all we've got. Beating Fairfield and Wagner doesn't prove anything to me, same with JWU.

"I understand your concerns. I expected better results as well. So far, the truth is we have one horrible loss: Brown. It sucked. Yesterday sucked. But overall, we have lost to one team we shouldn't have. If we keep playing worse and worse, and Archie loses the team, then I'm done defending him. We can't have another restart next year, but I don't think we will.

I keep saying to myself, imagine Hammond, Cam, Farrell, Green, Fuchs, Foumena, etc., in two years. I think that could be a really good team. Cam and Hammond could be one of the better backcourts once they develop. Connor's shot is a thing of beauty as well... As much hate as he gets, Fuchs could be a monster by junior year if he keeps improving. But none of that matters if Archie is losing his team and people bail, and that's my biggest worry

I agree with all of this. I wish we had won maybe a couple of those games we shouldn't have won. At least for me, that's a sign of progress.

[rhodyram22]

I can't believe people are saying Archie should be in the hot seat in year 2. Dan took over a much more drastic rebuild on a program level considering we hadn't been to a tournament in 13 seasons when he took over and he had to deal with an APR nightmare when recruiting but let's not act like this was a much better scenario that Archie walked into.

We let David Cox stay a year too long, which put everything in a worse spot than they needed to be. Hurley didn't inherit much, but he did inherit TJ who ended up being a necessary glue guy for his first NIT team in year 3, which is much more than you can say Archie will have.

If it took Dan Hurley three years to make an NIT and five to make an NCAA, maybe we should give Archie more than a year and a third to start talking about hot seats. Honestly we shouldn't even be talking about a hot seat until the end of next year and only in the context of "If Archie doesn't make the tournament next year (year four) than it might be time to move on if things aren't going in the right direction

Are you even watching these games? We look terrible. That win vs Yale doesn't mean shit anymore. It's a win NOW situation, not later. We don't even know if half of these players are going to stay next year.

So you would've fired Dan Hurley mid season 2016?

Yeah, we looked terrible. In December. Of Year 2.

Holy crap is it going to be Baron 2.0 all over again?

I mean I'm down and down bad after what we've had to watch, but I'll jump up on the wall again if need be.

Holy crap why do we have to be so dumb?

Yes, I am dumb for saying this team is terrible again. I really don't know what you all see in this team. They suck! The effort isn't there, the shot making isn't there, the defense isn't there.

[theblueram]

As much pain as our rebuild is causing us, it's nothing compared to the rebuild of the new Washington Bridge going on right now. Glad I don't commute through that. What's that bridge, like 10 years old?

[KeaneyBluBallz]

You never really know what you get when you take 5 guys from the portal or whatever it was then try to get them to play as a team , maybe the players are worse than we or the coaches thought they would be ?

Anyway things aren’t looking too good and it’s early in his tenure let’s see how this team improves as the season progresses

nonsense.

you know exactly what you're getting through the portal. and if you don't, then those who are responsible for getting guys to commit via the portal need to go.

you're getting college athletes. game film is there, their wants and needs (NIL and whatever else) are known, the 'word on the street' on the guys is there. the baggage or lack of is there (or not). coaches talk. difficult to hide things when you transfer and is some cases twice.

these aren't 8th graders and HS kids you're taking a flier on and hope they mature and grow because they show potential. these are guys someone else has already recruited to a program.

[Jersey77]

You never really know what you get when you take 5 guys from the portal or whatever it was then try to get them to play as a team , maybe the players are worse than we or the coaches thought they would be ?

Anyway things aren’t looking too good and it’s early in his tenure let’s see how this team improves as the season progresses

nonsense.

you know exactly what you're getting through the portal. and if you don't, then those who are responsible for getting guys to commit via the portal need to go.

you're getting college athletes. game film is there, their wants and needs (NIL and whatever else) are known, the 'word on the street' on the guys is there. the baggage or lack of is there (or not). coaches talk. difficult to hide things when you transfer and is some cases twice.

these aren't 8th graders and HS kids you're taking a flier on and hope they mature and grow because they show potential. these are guys someone else has already recruited to a program.

Obviously, there is always some risk involved when we get players from the portal, there are no guarantees.
Even so, success usually won't be instantaneous.

The best thing is to keep the core players, develop the youngsters, and use the portal to fill in the missing pieces or help with your depth.
To try and build a new roster year-after-year using the portal is a recipe for failure.