Understanding the NIL

[RhodyKyle]

If there is a booster with the time and ability to start and manage a collective, I'd happily pay a monthly "subscription" fee like a Patreon fee. Let's get at least some cash flowing in to be able to compete. Like a practice facility, eventually these NIL collectives will become a necessity rather than a luxury. Let's be ahead of the curve this time.

[bigappleram]

I mean didn’t David Cox sign 4 (Walker, Carey, Mitchell twins) a couple years ago with no NIL and with no national cache like Martin has.

Not two weeks after taking a new job and not with the NIL $ in place. That tweet is from the UMass Associate AD. He is saying “we have more money to pay platers”.

Umass just announced they are creating a Collective so there is no way of knowing if they already have been dangling dollars to kids who signed last couple weeks.

Frank Martin is a national brand name coach. He has a massive network and relationships all over the place from his long tenure in the biz.
He brought in 2 former players and 2 kids with roots in Mass (and Diggins). I don't think any of them averaged double figures in their last spot. So I don't necessarily think NIL $ is primary driver of him getting these kids. There could be lots of factors. Perhaps there is some $$$ involved but impossible to know.

[PeterRamTime]

See when I brought up NIL potentially being a big disadvantage for us i was ignored.

We have to do something with it.

[Rhody83]

I mean didn’t David Cox sign 4 (Walker, Carey, Mitchell twins) a couple years ago with no NIL and with no national cache like Martin has.

Not two weeks after taking a new job and not with the NIL $ in place. That tweet is from the UMass Associate AD. He is saying “we have more money to pay platers”.

Umass just announced they are creating a Collective so there is no way of knowing if they already have been dangling dollars to kids who signed last couple weeks.

Frank Martin is a national brand name coach. He has a massive network and relationships all over the place from his long tenure in the biz.
He brought in 2 former players and 2 kids with roots in Mass (and Diggins). I don't think any of them averaged double figures in their last spot. So I don't necessarily think NIL $ is primary driver of him getting these kids. There could be lots of factors. Perhaps there is some $$$ involved but impossible to know.

BAR deny and ignore it all you want. Do you know who/what Team Altmus is?

[Rhody83]

[Rhody83]

[ramster]

This guy doesn’t have a clue what the NIL rules are either. And Dan Gavitt knows below zero

[ramster]

Wichita State has officially joined the newest arms race in the world of college athletics with its first NIL collective. Armchair Strategies, LLC, headed by two former Shocker baseball players, confirmed to The Eagle on Tuesday morning that it will begin immediately representing Wichita State student-athletes in all sports to help them start earning money from their name, image and likeness.


Money to be made


Read more at: https://www.kansas.com/sports/college/w ... rylink=cpy

[Rhode_Island_Red]

This guy doesn’t have a clue what the NIL rules are either. And Dan Gavitt knows below zero

Obvious nepotism hire Dan Gavitt knows one thing: his job. It's to keep the Cartel from leaving the NCAA.

[Jdrums#3]

Just wondering…

If agents can make money off NIL, I’m wondering if agents will guide athletes to the higher paying schools. Is this possible? Is it happening already?

To me, NIL, the extra Covid year of eligibility and the no sit out transferring, all happening at the same time in college sports is the perfect storm. This perfect storm is moving college sports to a state of anarchy: No rules, anything goes, make it up as you go along. It’s like a snowball rolling downhill getting larger and rolling faster and faster day after day.

Will the pendulum swing too far, too fast? Will it swing back some? Will college sports become Miami U of the 80’s - 90’s where the money was flowing and anything goes?

Goodman’s tweets on the subject are thought provoking. Thanks for posting them, 83.

[bigappleram]

Not two weeks after taking a new job and not with the NIL $ in place. That tweet is from the UMass Associate AD. He is saying “we have more money to pay platers”.

Umass just announced they are creating a Collective so there is no way of knowing if they already have been dangling dollars to kids who signed last couple weeks.

Frank Martin is a national brand name coach. He has a massive network and relationships all over the place from his long tenure in the biz.
He brought in 2 former players and 2 kids with roots in Mass (and Diggins). I don't think any of them averaged double figures in their last spot. So I don't necessarily think NIL $ is primary driver of him getting these kids. There could be lots of factors. Perhaps there is some $$$ involved but impossible to know.

BAR deny and ignore it all you want. Do you know who/what Team Altmus is?

I'm not denying or ignoring anything. There is just a lot of stuff being overblown and misconstrued as it relates to NIL.

I am not intimately familiar with Team Altmus but they are like dozens and dozens of companies that have sprouted or developed capabilities to service this market. Seems like they provide legal counsel to the school and are partnered with an agency who will do the marketing side. It's a new market there are tons of new players popping up every day. I work in sports marketing so I have some pretty good intel on what is happening.

However, the majority of this activity isn't NIL in the way it was intended. Its funneling donor money to players via these "collectives". I have no way of knowing if that was in place at UMass and if money was dangled to these players but I can't imagine much money changed hands for a kid who averaged 4ppg at Louisville last year. Or a Freshman PG who got no PT at Uconn...I just don't think its a stretch to say Martin did most of the heavy lift on them the old fashioned way and recruited them to come play for him based on his track record, etc. Maybe some money is there via Umass new collective I just can't imagine we are talking about anything that couldn't be replicated by URI. If Umass can do it so can URI from a resource standpoint.

My point on NIL is this it was positioned as "hey these players should be able to profit from their name, image and likeness." And in the end what will be realized is that for 98% of student athletes their name, image and likeness isn't worth a whole lot to national corporations and businesses that have big budgets to throw around. But their points, rebounds and assists are worth something to donors thirsty for NCAA wins and championships. I do think the NCAA will eventually try to put some governance around this but right now it seems the Collective is the cost of doing business and URI will have to get in the game.

[bigappleram]

Just wondering…

If agents can make money off NIL, I’m wondering if agents will guide athletes to the higher paying schools. Is this possible? Is it happening already?

To me, NIL, the extra Covid year of eligibility and the no sit out transferring, all happening at the same time in college sports is the perfect storm. This perfect storm is moving college sports to a state of anarchy: No rules, anything goes, make it up as you go along. It’s like a snowball rolling downhill getting larger and rolling faster and faster day after day.

Will the pendulum swing too far, too fast? Will it swing back some? Will college sports become Miami U of the 80’s - 90’s where the money was flowing and anything goes?

Goodman’s tweets on the subject are thought provoking. Thanks for posting them, 83.

Agents can certainly get between legitimate marketing deals between companies and student athletes. I am not sure what role they can play with these Collectives. Since they are being formed as spokes of the university my guess is they aren't able to commission the dollars flowing from the collective to the athlete but not totally sure. There is going to be an ugly situation eventually if the NCAA doesn't try to put some rules around this.

[Jdrums#3]

Bar, I agree as to the potential ugliness. To me, I feel like I am watching a car wreck in slow motion. But then, part of me finds the chaos and resulting developments fascinating.

I am really curious as to how this all plays out.

[reef]

Did NIL force Emmert to step down ??

[SGreenwell]

Again, a lot of this only matters if teams have perfect knowledge when it comes to player ability and fit on a team. The entire history of basketball has shown that *professional* teams really struggle with this, never mind college teams, where the market of players with the talent to play that level is exponentially more. I suspect NILs are ultimately going to involve a lot of "wasted" money on guys who don't effect a program that much.

[ramster]

No different than free agency in NFL, MLB or NBA. Lots of money wasted. Part of the process of paying players in Free Agency. It’s like an auction. Go to a car auction and you might get a lemon or a Diamond.

The G-league, Overtime-Elite play into the bidding war too.

[Billyboy78]

[bigappleram]

I believe Rhody had already signed an agreement with OpenDorse when they first launched, but I could be wrong.
OpenDorse is a marketplace exchange where athletes are uploaded and companies can opt in to the marketplace and basically buy the marketing services of any athletes in it. A lot of the services being bought there are social media posts or appearances on behalf of local/regional companies, etc.

But unlike these Collectives this is true NIL as OpenDorse is only an intermediary between companies and athletes (from what I understand) not donors and athletes. But to give context to size of this market when Open Dorse released data the average deal was 300-500/month per student athlete. A nice piece of pocket change for a college kid for sure but certainly not any type of significant dollars that would sway someone to choose one school over another. 99% of that big money stuff is via the collectives and basically pay for play agreements.

[Jdrums#3]

To KB, this is what has me scratching my head in all this…

NIL and pay for play (via collectives), seem to me, to be two different things. How did we get from NIL to pay for play via collectives? Or, are there three different things going on: NIL, pay for play, collectives?

Obviously, NIL is compensation for the use of an individuals name, image, likeness. But, pay for play (as in the player Miami just signed with $800K plus a car from a booster) seems to be an employment like agreement or independent contractor agreement. Or, is the collective (or, booster in Miami’s case) just the money provider for the schools use of the individuals NIL?

The pay to play term (which just may be slang for an NIL agreement?) is what is throwing me for a loop.

[RhodyKyle]

To KB, this is what has me scratching my head in all this…

NIL and pay for play (via collectives), seem to me, to be two different things. How did we get from NIL to pay for play via collectives? Or, are there three different things going on: NIL, pay for play, collectives?

Obviously, NIL is compensation for the use of an individuals name, image, likeness. But, pay for play (as in the player Miami just signed with $800K plus a car from a booster) seems to be an employment like agreement or independent contractor agreement. Or, is the collective (or, booster in Miami’s case) just the money provider for the schools use of the individuals NIL?

The pay to play term (which just may be slang for an NIL agreement?) is what is throwing me for a loop.

I could be wrong but the collectives seem to be people paying in and getting something in return (autographed merchandise, meet and greets, etc.) so it's the players getting paid for their name. What the booster in Miami did was pay this kid a ton of money and a car to promote his new company/app (a platform that keeps electronic medical records for ease of access for people's doctors). In that instance, it's paying a player for their name/image and their social media presence.

Now, nobody buys that this kid's ability to promote an app is worth what he got paid. This all becomes a substance over form argument. The form is paying players for their name/image but the substance of the payment is for the kid to play for a certain school.

[Jdrums#3]

To KB, this is what has me scratching my head in all this…

NIL and pay for play (via collectives), seem to me, to be two different things. How did we get from NIL to pay for play via collectives? Or, are there three different things going on: NIL, pay for play, collectives?

Obviously, NIL is compensation for the use of an individuals name, image, likeness. But, pay for play (as in the player Miami just signed with $800K plus a car from a booster) seems to be an employment like agreement or independent contractor agreement. Or, is the collective (or, booster in Miami’s case) just the money provider for the schools use of the individuals NIL?

The pay to play term (which just may be slang for an NIL agreement?) is what is throwing me for a loop.

I could be wrong but the collectives seem to be people paying in and getting something in return (autographed merchandise, meet and greets, etc.) so it's the players getting paid for their name. What the booster in Miami did was pay this kid a ton of money and a car to promote his new company/app (a platform that keeps electronic medical records for ease of access for people's doctors). In that instance, it's paying a player for their name/image and their social media presence.

Now, nobody buys that this kid's ability to promote an app is worth what he got paid. This all becomes a substance over form argument. The form is paying players for their name/image but the substance of the payment is for the kid to play for a certain school.

Thanks, RhodyK. Makes sense. I think someone mentioned that before and it totally slipped my mind or these freakin’ meds are messing with my reading comprehension or both. Yikes! I need to pay closer attention.

[bigappleram]

To KB, this is what has me scratching my head in all this…

NIL and pay for play (via collectives), seem to me, to be two different things. How did we get from NIL to pay for play via collectives? Or, are there three different things going on: NIL, pay for play, collectives?

Obviously, NIL is compensation for the use of an individuals name, image, likeness. But, pay for play (as in the player Miami just signed with $800K plus a car from a booster) seems to be an employment like agreement or independent contractor agreement. Or, is the collective (or, booster in Miami’s case) just the money provider for the schools use of the individuals NIL?

The pay to play term (which just may be slang for an NIL agreement?) is what is throwing me for a loop.

I could be wrong but the collectives seem to be people paying in and getting something in return (autographed merchandise, meet and greets, etc.) so it's the players getting paid for their name. What the booster in Miami did was pay this kid a ton of money and a car to promote his new company/app (a platform that keeps electronic medical records for ease of access for people's doctors). In that instance, it's paying a player for their name/image and their social media presence.

Now, nobody buys that this kid's ability to promote an app is worth what he got paid. This all becomes a substance over form argument. The form is paying players for their name/image but the substance of the payment is for the kid to play for a certain school.

This is spot on. NIL is being used to explain each circumstance of a player getting paid. But most of these situations aren’t NIL in substance they are moreso pay for play under the cover of the NIL rules. Some like the Miami booster did it under the cover of his business but no one thinks that kid is worth 400k a year in marketing value for that business. Some are doing it under these collectives where boosters fund the collective and the money is disbursed and the players are then asked to do meet n greets or make an appearance or what not. Again the value of those things does not equal what the players actually receiving. It’s just a nice cover and bc there are no rules completely legal due to NIL ruling.

[RAM67]

Will this slow the transfer market, and will a team or collective get stuck with a player who underperforms? (The first part assumes the player gets paid for his complete eligibility at that school.)

[bigappleram]

Will this slow the transfer market, and will a team or collective get stuck with a player who underperforms? (The first part assumes the player gets paid for his complete eligibility at that school.)

It may help with retention sure, but if someone has a bigger war chest, it could sway movement regardless. The issues when something goes sideways ie a kid is paid to go somewhere then decides he wants out or doesn’t perform to expectations is where this gets ugly. Or if the player commits a crime or does something to bring negative publicity to a school. So many potential downsides that will eventually happen.

[RAM67]

I do see ugly.

[Rhody83]

Will this slow the transfer market, and will a team or collective get stuck with a player who underperforms? (The first part assumes the player gets paid for his complete eligibility at that school.)

They get paid per year they are at the school (and eligible).
Pack’s deal (Miami) is $400,000 per year.
All 10 scholarship players on Kentucky last year got paid by their Collective.

[rjv]

Student Athlete gets paid by their Collective = NIL
Student Athlete goes to school for free = Scholarship

Only in America!!!!

[Rhody83]

[bigappleram]

A high school player signed an international NIL today. A legit one. Top rated 2024 PG from Jersey I think but he’s half Swedish and a Swedish nutrition / supplement brand is paying him a five figure sum to promote the brand on social 2x a month and do some basketball camps in Sweden in the summer.

[Jersey77]

A high school player signed an international NIL today. A legit one. Top rated 2024 PG from Jersey I think but he’s half Swedish and a Swedish nutrition / supplement brand is paying him a five figure sum to promote the brand on social 2x a month and do some basketball camps in Sweden in the summer.

[bigappleram]

Yep that’s him. This is good. This is pure NIL and an amateur athlete receiving a fair market value for his association and social media clout. Brands pay 4-5 figure sums for these types of engagements. Also I’m sure there is a bit of a bet here from the company “hey maybe this Swedish kid turns into a US star” which ups his value. Net net this is what NIL should be about not some booster using his own business to overpay a kid to try and win games or these collectives handing out no show jobs for cash.

[Rhody83]

[Rhody83]

It’s only going to get worse.

[RIFan]

Wow, now demanding a raise! We will soon need an NIL salary cap.

[RhodyKyle]

Geez, is Wong going to threaten to hold out of training camp? Refuse to sign his franchise tag? He's already knocking on the door of demanding a trade.

[Rhody83]

Switching teams for a better payday and he has an agent. What isn’t professional about this?

[Rhody83]

[bigappleram]

Because everyone knows cbb players can sell a lot of high performance speed boats. What an unmitigated disaster. Ncaa is so inept

[Billyboy78]

NCAA will get exactly what it wants from this....widen the gap between the power and the mids even more. More $$$$$$ in their pockets too.

[SGreenwell]

NCAA will get exactly what it wants from this....widen the gap between the power and the mids even more. More $$$$$$ in their pockets too.

I don't think the NCAA and its institutions want any of this. Every dollar that goes directly to an athlete via an NIL is one less that ends up funding the $X million "student athlete center" at a power conference school. Or, to steal and paraphrase a joke from The Simpsons, the Montgomery Burns International Airport at the University of Alabama.

[Billyboy78]

NCAA will get exactly what it wants from this....widen the gap between the power and the mids even more. More $$$$$$ in their pockets too.

I don't think the NCAA and its institutions want any of this. Every dollar that goes directly to an athlete via an NIL is one less that ends up funding the $X million "student athlete center" at a power conference school. Or, to steal and paraphrase a joke from The Simpsons, the Montgomery Burns International Airport at the University of Alabama.

Watch when they negotiate their next contract with the networks. That's where all the increase in their pockets will come from.

[TruePoint]

You can't, that is why the High-Majors will have a huge advantage.

In addition, the NCAAT committee favoring these conferences doesn't help matters for the smaller guys.

So, why are we getting our hopes up that Archie is going to get some great players here?

Not easy.

But there are many good players out there.
Keeping them will be more difficult.

I have skipped this thread mostly and am just reading it now, and only got about 4 posts in before I saw something I wanted to jump in on. So sorry if this point has been in the 80+ posts since.

But the reality is that A10-level teams will mostly not be competing with the blue blood schools for players under the NIL system, the exact same way we were not competing for the very very top players in the old system. Once this market matures and finds its level, we will be back in a situation where the only players getting ridiculous NIL money will be guys headed straight for the lottery anyways. There are a lot of very good college basketball players out there and I find it hard to believe that there will be enough money to go around that guys will be getting six figures to sit on the very far end of the bench at West Virginia or whatever. Mostly, the net result here is that all the money hovering around programs will get redirected from infrastructure improvements and amenities directly to the kids, ending one arms race and starting another. But the haves and have-nots will be relatively unchanged and teams like URI will compete the same way as they have for a long time: can our experienced but perhaps slightly less talented players beat your lottery-bound and übertalented 18 year olds when the chips are down? We’ve seen in college basketball for decades that the answer to that is “maybe, sometimes” and we can still have magical march runs from high majors but in all likelihood those will not end with a national championship. Same as it ever was.

[RIFan]

While this whole thing stinks to me, some of these kids and families were getting paid under the table so to speak already. And as long as there is still a 13 scholarship limit, there will still be players to fill all tiers of teams and all levels of NIL money. Now one could say scholarships mean nothing when a kid could just get an NIL that covers cost of attendance plus some walking around money. But you can still only play so many kids. We will all get a chance to see how this plays out.

[TruePoint]

That’s an interesting question: do you have to be on scholarship to be eligible to receive NIL money? If not, that’s a huge loophole that rich programs could exploit to have 30-man basketball rosters theoretically.

[reef]

This whole thing getting out of control , Wong wants to transfer from Miami unless he gets what the K State transfer in got , crazy

[Rhody83]

So, why are we getting our hopes up that Archie is going to get some great players here?

Not easy.

But there are many good players out there.
Keeping them will be more difficult.

I have skipped this thread mostly and am just reading it now, and only got about 4 posts in before I saw something I wanted to jump in on. So sorry if this point has been in the 80+ posts since.

But the reality is that A10-level teams will mostly not be competing with the blue blood schools for players under the NIL system, the exact same way we were not competing for the very very top players in the old system. Once this market matures and finds its level, we will be back in a situation where the only players getting ridiculous NIL money will be guys headed straight for the lottery anyways. There are a lot of very good college basketball players out there and I find it hard to believe that there will be enough money to go around that guys will be getting six figures to sit on the very far end of the bench at West Virginia or whatever. Mostly, the net result here is that all the money hovering around programs will get redirected from infrastructure improvements and amenities directly to the kids, ending one arms race and starting another. But the haves and have-nots will be relatively unchanged and teams like URI will compete the same way as they have for a long time: can our experienced but perhaps slightly less talented players beat your lottery-bound and übertalented 18 year olds when the chips are down? We’ve seen in college basketball for decades that the answer to that is “maybe, sometimes” and we can still have magical march runs from high majors but in all likelihood those will not end with a national championship. Same as it ever was.

TP, I respect your opinion, however, you need to read more on this topic. It’s not just going to be the lottery pick players believe me. The combination of the NILs and the no sit transfer rule will dramatically change college basketball if it remains unregulated as it is today. This has the potential to explode over the next 2-4 years. Left unattended there will be two tiers very wide apart in D1 college basketball. The “Pro” schools and the “Amateur” schools.

A few points to think about. Every scholarship player on Kentucky has a significant NIL. The prediction is they will all get $100,000/year or more next year. The top player at UK is expected to get $2 million. A PG from KState that virtually no one outside the Big12 knew of before he entered the portal just got $400,000/year. He isn’t a lottery pick. He isn’t the best player on Miami. Bryce Hopkins held up transferring to PC until they guaranteed they could match the NIL money he was getting at UK. In football every OLinemen on Alabama gets $50,000 per year. The examples go on and on……

[rjsuperfly66]

That’s an interesting question: do you have to be on scholarship to be eligible to receive NIL money? If not, that’s a huge loophole that rich programs could exploit to have 30-man basketball rosters theoretically.

Walk-ons are eligible for NIL.
That said, your scenario is extreme and while possible, don’t think there is much basis in reality.
I don’t suspect you’ll see a super team with 25 guys all making 5 figures - not sure a booster would spend much on the 6th man, forget the 25th man.
It’s the top guys getting the bigger contracts… everyone else gets the scraps.

[Jdrums#3]

I posted these hypothetical questions to the KB crew in the transfer thread but, I think they apply here, too.

If the current transfer/NIL environment continues for the foreseeable future without any regulation, then why would universities continue to offer scholly’s? Why not just eventually provide an NIL agreement to athletes and, if they want an education also, then adjust the NIL accordingly to include tuition?

[RIFan]

Recruit: Coach, I’d love to come play for you, but I need more NIL money.

Player on team…every year. Coach, I love playing here, but I need a raise or I’m going to go in the portal.

You need to not give in and give a raise, once you do it for one…

[Rhody83]

Wong doesn’t enter portal. Booster is going to help him get a second NIL deal.