A revised NIT format.

[Obadiah]

OK, watching the NCAA is interesting but without URI in it, I have time for other pursuits, some maybe useless. So I have been thinking about developing the idea of jazzing up the relevance of the NIT tournament and rather than muddy up the Tournament Talk thread I move this idea to a new thread.

Essentially my idea is to merger the NIT with some eliminated NCAA teams. This could take on many different variations, but for starters I have concentrated on the top 16 teams eliminated from the first round of NCAA which numbers a total of 36 teams. Another version could focus on both the first and second round which numbers 52 teams or take the top eight after completion of the Sweet Sixteen. since I am not privy to the seeding info used by the NCAA selection, I have ranked the teams by their NET rankings. In each case, the final 8 teams go to NYC rather the current 4. The NIT final would be held on Sunday before the NCAA final on Monday. Keeping an open mind, these are just random thoughts, nothing more,

Here are the current pairings of the NIT second round:

Dayton vs. Vanderbilt
Florida vs. Xavier
Oklahoma vs. St. Bonaventure
Virginia vs. North Texas
SMU vs. Washington State
Northern Iowa vs. BYU
Texas A&M vs. Oregon
VCU vs Wake Forest

Here is what the pairings of a revised NIT would look like incorporating First Round NCAA eliminated teams:

Oklahoma vs. Marquette
Xavier vs. Davidson
Texas A&M vs. Indiana
SMU vs. Seton Hall
North Texas vs. Southern Cal
Wake Forest vs. Alabama
BYU vs. Boise State
VCU vs. Colorado State
Dayton vs. Virginia Tech
Florida vs. San Diego State
Washington State vs. Loyola Chicago
Vanderbilt vs. San Francisco
Oregon vs. LSU
Virginia vs. UConn
St. Bonaventure vs. Iowa
Northern Iowa vs. Kentucky

[RF1]

The only change to D1 postseason play I would like to see is an expanded NCAA tournament field. With all the new teams that have been added to D1 in recent decades, it makes sense. There were 301 D1 teams in 1994 and there are now 358. The tournament's last really significant changes happened in the late 1970'S and early 1980's back when the field was expanded from 32 to 64 in a series of moves. There were only about 250 teams competing at the D1 level at that time.

[rjsuperfly66]

I think the problem here is that no one cares about the NIT and to most, the NIT is a punishment and not a reward.

Sure, bolstering the teams might make it marginally more interesting, but it would still just be considered the best of the rest.

Imagine losing in the real tournament and being told, “Good news, you get to host Northern Iowa in the NIT.”

You would probably be miserable.

[steviep123]

I think the problem here is that no one cares about the NIT and to most, the NIT is a punishment and not a reward.

Sure, bolstering the teams might make it marginally more interesting, but it would still just be considered the best of the rest.

Imagine losing in the real tournament and being told, “Good news, you get to host Northern Iowa in the NIT.”

You would probably be miserable.

I mostly agree with the caveat that it can be a boon to an up and coming team to gain future experience (see Rhody in 1987, 92, and 96). It can be used for good.

[steviep123]

I'd rather see, the field expanded to 96 at this point with some caveats that you need to be at least .500 in conference to make it, so we aren't getting team #14 from the ACC or B1G that basically played cupcake city OOC then went like 5-15 in the conference. Plus other things to make sure teams actually deserve to be there. Top 32 get a bye and the bottom 64 play the first round.

[Rhodyram]

I hope I never have to think about the NIT. Ever.

[rjsuperfly66]

I’m the exact opposite on the last point. Your schedule is your schedule, yes a majority of your schedule is against conference foes, but you should be graded on the entirety of your schedule. You can make arguments on all sides, I just want the best teams, based on resume, and not because 20 schools ahead of someone got eliminated because of a conference record (that’s based on your 96 idea).

I’m sure the tourney will expand at some point but making it now absolutely feels like a reward. Product also would get ridiculously watered down at 96. They struggle to fill 68 now.

[Da_Process_Survivor]

No team that lost in the NCAA is gonna give two shits about going and playing in the NIT.

[steviep123]

I’m the exact opposite on the last point. Your schedule is your schedule, yes a majority of your schedule is against conference foes, but you should be graded on the entirety of your schedule. You can make arguments on all sides, I just want the best teams, based on resume, and not because 20 schools ahead of someone got eliminated because of a conference record (that’s based on your 96 idea).

I’m sure the tourney will expand at some point but making it now absolutely feels like a reward. Product also would get ridiculously watered down at 96. They struggle to fill 68 now.

That would be fine if it meant teams had the opportunity to play a good schedule. Not everyone gets that opportunity. Do something to make it more equitable so teams actually get opportunities.

[section(105)]

Make the NIT an improved pre-season event, where teams from conferences that usually do not play each other are scheduled against each other……?

[Obadiah]

The most immediate reaction would be to expand the NCAA tournament, but that option has been around for years and hasn't been taken implemented since expanding the "dance'" extends the season and does not improve the quality. Recall that the NCAA had earlier experimented with a truly runners-up tournament, but abandoned it after little success and the fact they then turned around and bought rights to the NIT indicates their interest in an alternative tournament. So the NIT appears to be here to stay, so why not work to make it more interesting.

[RamStock]

OK, watching the NCAA is interesting but without URI in it, I have time for other pursuits, some maybe useless. So I have been thinking about developing the idea of jazzing up the relevance of the NIT tournament and rather than muddy up the Tournament Talk thread I move this idea to a new thread.

Essentially my idea is to merger the NIT with some eliminated NCAA teams. This could take on many different variations, but for starters I have concentrated on the top 16 teams eliminated from the first round of NCAA which numbers a total of 36 teams. Another version could focus on both the first and second round which numbers 52 teams or take the top eight after completion of the Sweet Sixteen. since I am not privy to the seeding info used by the NCAA selection, I have ranked the teams by their NET rankings. In each case, the final 8 teams go to NYC rather the current 4. The NIT final would be held on Sunday before the NCAA final on Monday. Keeping an open mind, these are just random thoughts, nothing more,

Here are the current pairings of the NIT second round:

Dayton vs. Vanderbilt
Florida vs. Xavier
Oklahoma vs. St. Bonaventure
Virginia vs. North Texas
SMU vs. Washington State
Northern Iowa vs. BYU
Texas A&M vs. Oregon
VCU vs Wake Forest

Here is what the pairings of a revised NIT would look like incorporating First Round NCAA eliminated teams:

Oklahoma vs. Marquette
Xavier vs. Davidson
Texas A&M vs. Indiana
SMU vs. Seton Hall
North Texas vs. Southern Cal
Wake Forest vs. Alabama
BYU vs. Boise State
VCU vs. Colorado State
Dayton vs. Virginia Tech
Florida vs. San Diego State
Washington State vs. Loyola Chicago
Vanderbilt vs. San Francisco
Oregon vs. LSU
Virginia vs. UConn
St. Bonaventure vs. Iowa
Northern Iowa vs. Kentucky

The problem is that no one cares about the NIT. The teams that lose in the NCAA tourney have no interest in playing additional games that mean nothing. Do you Kentucky would be up for a game against Northern Iowa after a devastating loss. I know what you mean on the tourney without URI even bring close to making it. I root
for the underdogs

[Blue Man]

Cool idea but in reality lets hope nothing ever changes about March Madness.

Win or go home has a significantly bigger impact than win or play next week in another game.

[reef]

OK, watching the NCAA is interesting but without URI in it, I have time for other pursuits, some maybe useless. So I have been thinking about developing the idea of jazzing up the relevance of the NIT tournament and rather than muddy up the Tournament Talk thread I move this idea to a new thread.

Essentially my idea is to merger the NIT with some eliminated NCAA teams. This could take on many different variations, but for starters I have concentrated on the top 16 teams eliminated from the first round of NCAA which numbers a total of 36 teams. Another version could focus on both the first and second round which numbers 52 teams or take the top eight after completion of the Sweet Sixteen. since I am not privy to the seeding info used by the NCAA selection, I have ranked the teams by their NET rankings. In each case, the final 8 teams go to NYC rather the current 4. The NIT final would be held on Sunday before the NCAA final on Monday. Keeping an open mind, these are just random thoughts, nothing more,

Here are the current pairings of the NIT second round:

Dayton vs. Vanderbilt
Florida vs. Xavier
Oklahoma vs. St. Bonaventure
Virginia vs. North Texas
SMU vs. Washington State
Northern Iowa vs. BYU
Texas A&M vs. Oregon
VCU vs Wake Forest

Here is what the pairings of a revised NIT would look like incorporating First Round NCAA eliminated teams:

Oklahoma vs. Marquette
Xavier vs. Davidson
Texas A&M vs. Indiana
SMU vs. Seton Hall
North Texas vs. Southern Cal
Wake Forest vs. Alabama
BYU vs. Boise State
VCU vs. Colorado State
Dayton vs. Virginia Tech
Florida vs. San Diego State
Washington State vs. Loyola Chicago
Vanderbilt vs. San Francisco
Oregon vs. LSU
Virginia vs. UConn
St. Bonaventure vs. Iowa
Northern Iowa vs. Kentucky

The problem is that no one cares about the NIT. The teams that lose in the NCAA tourney have no interest in playing additional games that mean nothing. Do you Kentucky would be up for a game against Northern Iowa after a devastating loss. I know what you mean on the tourney without URI even bring close to making it. I root
for the underdogs

It’s a No for me just because I think it would never happen I like the idea though

[NYGFan_Section208]

Make the NIT an improved pre-season event, where teams from conferences that usually do not play each other are scheduled against each other……?

Agree.... better to create some early season interest than to water down the best tournament in sports.

[reef]

I think it’s fine the way it is been that way for quite sometime

[SGreenwell]

Here's my more radical idea - Make the preseason NIT a 256-team, double elimination tournament. Seed everyone based the NET ranking from the previous year. Then, you'll get a bunch of weird match-ups and teams that would NEVER play against one another. Devote the first month of the season to it. You'd probably get more interesting games than you usually get in the first couple weeks of the season. It would be delightful chaos.

[ElbertC2020]

Another chaotic idea, the NIT is all about MSG. NY City. Make the tournament a preseason NE, NY, NJ, and Penn tournament. The 16 top teams based on previous year NET from the 4 regions fight for the NIT crown. We'd have URI, UCONN, PC, NOVA, ST Joe's, BC, Temple, Buffalo, Rutgers, etc.... it would make buckets of money and get the fan bases fired up over the Northeast crown.

[rjsuperfly66]

Anything that involves OOC will not illicit any real excitement. Many of the schools listed care about standing on the top of the mountain at the end of the season. Teams also aren’t going to sacrifice known OOC opponents or solid MTEs for some preseason hoopla.

I know these are largely long-shot/unlikely ideas, but everyone just needs to face the reality the NIT is an irrelevant tourney and nothing can be done to improve it. At best as someone listed earlier, it’s a great spot for a young team to get some extra practice and game experience. Most are not excited to be there. Nothing you can do to change that.

[reef]

Also why is Dayton the 1 seed playing @ the 4 seed Vandy ??

[rjsuperfly66]

The reason is so bad I wish I were lying:

“ Dayton couldn’t host the game because there will be four boys basketball state championship games played at UD Arena on Sunday.”

https://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/ ... utType=amp

[reef]

The reason is so bad I wish I were lying:

“ Dayton couldn’t host the game because there will be four boys basketball state championship games played at UD Arena on Sunday.”

https://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/ ... utType=amp

That’s crazy fly !!

[Obadiah]

I appreciate all the great responses, though the vast majority were negative. I must point out that improving the NIT was my strict focus and while many ideas - killing the NIT, expanding the NCAA , or building a large pre-season NIT- had great merit, they did not address the goal of making the NIT more interesting. In that spirit, as mentioned earlier, there are many variations of merging the NIT with eliminated teams of the NCAA, let me give another shot at one of those variations.

Using the results of both tourneys through Sunday, March 20, I have paired the remaining 8 NIT winners versus the top 8 of the 52 teams eliminated in the first three rounds of the NCAA. My proposal takes all sixteen teams to Madison Square Garden for what I now call the Grand National Invitation Tournament. Hopefully the lure of New York City and a shot at redemption provides incentives for the 8 eliminated NCAA team to participate. This move takes the tourney from 3 neutral site games to 15 games which improves competitive fairness.

The opening of the competition would begin on Monday, March 28 with four games in afternoon and evening doubleheaders and would continue on Tuesday, March 29. The pairings over the first two days would be:

Xavier vs. LSU
Texas A&M vs.Texas
Wake Forest vs. Illinois
BYU vs. Iowa
Washington State vs. Auburn
Vanderbilt vs. Tennessee
Virginia vs. Kentucky
St. Bonaventure vs. Baylor

Wednesday would be an off day eliminating a scenario where a team with no rest plays a team with a day's rest. Competition resumes on Thursday, March 31 with the quarter finals of another 4 games organized in day-evening doubleheaders. Friday sees the semifinal doubleheader in the evening. Saturday is a day off and avoids any competition with the NCAA Final Four which begins that day. The GNIT final is held on Sunday, April 3, just before the NCAA finale on Monday.

Fire away.

[PlayMikeMotenMore]

The reason is so bad I wish I were lying:

“ Dayton couldn’t host the game because there will be four boys basketball state championship games played at UD Arena on Sunday.”

https://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/ ... utType=amp

Why is that a bad reason? High school athletic associations have to book the campus arenas well in advance...that's life in the Midwest where they have large high school tournaments that go into March.

[Jdrums#3]

Good thread, Obie. I like good basketball so I watch some of the games. However, the NIT is a consolation prize and it’s difficult to shake that perception - for me, anyway.

On the other hand, I do think it is an excellent opportunity for young teams to get tourney experience. So, here’s an idea…maybe limit the tourney to one round before heading to NYC. Take 16- 20 non-NCAA Tourney teams and give the NCAA first round losers the option of jumping into the NIT 2nd round (but approach the AD’s and coaches of the teams before the NCAA first round to confirm if they want in if they lose. Maybe add a spot in the NIT pre-season tourney as an incentive). Market it as an up and coming team tourney? Just a thought to throw out into this thread. There would be logistics issues, I’m sure. Someone better than me at logistics can tackle that aspect.

As an aside…my fear with the NIT is that the P5 will use it as a tool to separate Division 1 into tiers like football. If that’s the case, I’d rather see the NIT go away.

[Obadiah]

Thanks Jdrums3. It looks like this ia all a moot question re MSG part if this report is right.

Pete Thamel just tweeted:
Sources: The NIT semis and finals will not be held in Madison Square Garden in 2023 and 2024, ending a run there that began in 1938. The next two years are out for bid, with destinations ranging from historic venues like Hinkle FieldHouse to more resort destinations like Vegas.

[section(105)]

…….for me the MSG was part of the lure of the tourney, move it around and on the way to the CBI or whatever those much less are called…….move the NIT final four around and the nails in the coffin just need hammering……

[theblueram]

…….for me the MSG was part of the lure of the tourney, move it around and on the way to the CBI or whatever those much less are called…….move the NIT final four around and the nails in the coffin just need hammering……

Agreed. Was going to say the same thing. The only allure to the NIT was the final 4 at MSG. Moving it makes that tournament done.

[steviep123]

Good thread for this:

[RF1]

The fact that MSG no longer wants the NIT tells you all you need to know about how the tournament is viewed these days.