D1 Non-Football Conference Restructure

[the_one_mike]

With a ton of eyes on this forum over the next day or so I figured i'd start a conversation about a topic I find quite interesting.

As the power conferences are making things tougher and tougher on the non-major conferences in CBB, and as we all know MBB and FBS take a backseat to FBS, I think it would behoove many schools to take a hard look at this idea...

The "Catholic 7" saw the writing on the wall 5 years ago and formed the new "Big East" as we know it... and it looks as if it may have worked. They get to pack their conference schedule with a home/home against quality opponents every season and it undoubtedly helps build their resume.

The A10 is arguably the second best non-football conference overall behind the Big East, but perennial powers like Gonzaga out of the WCC make the A10 look fairly weak to the layperson. While the layperson doesn't have a vote on selection Sunday we can all agree that our conference could use some more favorable media coverage...

BUT what if... just what if... the remaining Eastern(ish) basketball and FCS schools got together to form a conference designed to rival the Big East?

You can draw up a million different combinations of teams from the A10, CAA, NEC, America East, MAAC, Horizon, MVC, Big South, MEAC, OVC, Patriot, SoCon, and others...

Could this maybe be a springboard to stay in competition with the majors?

Discuss!

[Rhode_Island_Red]

One thing the A-10 must do is lose Fordham.

[the_one_mike]

One thing the A-10 must do is lose Fordham.

Can't agree with you more. The A10 as a whole isn't so bad if you get rid of Fordham.

I often think of a scenario where we drop them, add UVM, Iona, and Siena and hold at 16 teams. Seems a bit ridiculous to have 16 teams but if you divide it into divisions and modify conference scheduling accordingly I think that would be an addition to the league in most years.

[section(105)]

......OK, great concept, show me the money, TV networks, sponsors, a major human leader of this pack to even start a serious conversation......I am suspect there will still be the have and the half nots.....which may for some folks say to opeN the NCAA tourney to all D1 teams.....

[the_one_mike]

......OK, great concept, show me the money, TV networks, sponsors, a major human leader of this pack to even start a serious conversation......I am suspect there will still be the have and the half nots.....which may for some folks say to opeN the NCAA tourney to all D1 teams.....

That's the obvious hinge point in making this idea a reality... and the exact reason why trying to concentrate power should be on the minds of these schools. It's a chance to pitch, and potentially get, some media contracts and coverage for the schools that are slowly slipping under the surface.

The A10 holds onto Fordham, LaSalle, and Duquesne with the intention of tapping those metro markets but in the age of the internet you don't need schools that are in a dense metro region to generate viewership. The smartest networks already know this...

Truthfully, the A10 could drop all three of those teams with little change to viewership... If anything, by improving schedules for the top of the league, you likely improve online viewership for those that aren't necessarily primary fans of those teams.

In the age of streaming, games worthy of watching will always win. "If you build it, they will come"

[rambone 78]

It's never a good look on TV to see cow barn arenas that are 80% empty...and the A10 has several of them.

The A10 will never get a much bigger TV contract without getting rid of some dead weight.

[the_one_mike]

It's never a good look on TV to see cow barn arenas that are 80% empty...and the A10 has several of them.

The A10 will never get a much bigger TV contract without getting rid of some dead weight.

That's my point... If you get the top remaining programs in the East together in a new-look conference it's a chance to maintain some kind of grip on relevancy and snag a media contract.

The American and Big East both have their own angle to do so; the American is trying to build itself as a relevant FBS conference and the Big East as a storied basketball conference... that's why they bought the name. Everyone associates Big East with basketball.

Unlike many teams left out in the 2013 shift, UMass, for instance, sees the writing on the wall and is acting on it by attempting to transition to FBS. I'd imagine in time they will attempt at making a bid at joining the American... or, less likely, the new B1G. While UMass athletics programs aren't the caliber you typically associate with the B1G, their composition and pedigree fits the bill of what the B1G stands for. Not dissimilar to Rutgers.

On the other hand, the American would LOVE to replace a small, private school like Tulsa with a large, public university such as UMass who is much more in line with the composition of other schools in the conference. Also worth mentioning is that the American is based right here in Providence... one would imagine they would like more than one northern school (UConn and Temple being the only distinctive "Northern" schools, if you will) and they are right in UMass' backyard to lobby for it.

The American appears to be investing in the bones of a larger, nationally based conference... a long chess match to compete on the national stage with the P5 in due time. UMass, playing some home games in Gillette, are a major growth market for college football and these conferences aren't numb to that. This is why I think they even have a shot at the B1G... you could potentially sell a shit ton of tickets to B1G UMass football home games at Gillette by tapping into the Patriots' fanbase.

UMass aside, I think we can all agree that the FBS route is a long shot for URI unless a lot of fortuitous breaks for our football program were to come in the short term. Not impossible, but highly improbable.

With that in mind, it seems our program's (and many others' with strong basketball) only option is to strongly consider a new-look basketball conference to maintain some level of relevance in the face of the competition.

Mark my words, though, UMass is doing everything in their power to get out of the A10 right now and I wouldn't be surprised to see them exit in the next couple of seasons.

[theblueram]

One thing the A-10 must do is lose Fordham.

Can't agree with you more. The A10 as a whole isn't so bad if you get rid of Fordham.

I often think of a scenario where we drop them, add UVM, Iona, and Siena and hold at 16 teams. Seems a bit ridiculous to have 16 teams but if you divide it into divisions and modify conference scheduling accordingly I think that would be an addition to the league in most years.

UVM? Iona? Siena? NO THANKS.

[RF1]

I am glad we have something much more meaningful to discuss than this topic right now.

[Taylor Swift]

One thing the A-10 must do is lose Fordham.

Can't agree with you more. The A10 as a whole isn't so bad if you get rid of Fordham.

I often think of a scenario where we drop them, add UVM, Iona, and Siena and hold at 16 teams. Seems a bit ridiculous to have 16 teams but if you divide it into divisions and modify conference scheduling accordingly I think that would be an addition to the league in most years.

UVM? Iona? Siena? NO THANKS.

You beat me to it. Why not at DeVry? I do agree with dropping Fordham...

[the_one_mike]

Can't agree with you more. The A10 as a whole isn't so bad if you get rid of Fordham.

I often think of a scenario where we drop them, add UVM, Iona, and Siena and hold at 16 teams. Seems a bit ridiculous to have 16 teams but if you divide it into divisions and modify conference scheduling accordingly I think that would be an addition to the league in most years.

UVM? Iona? Siena? NO THANKS.

You beat me to it. Why not at DeVry? I do agree with dropping Fordham...

All the points to discuss, and you guys go straight to disagreeing with the teams proposed rather than actually adding anything to the post...

I may have expected too much from this thread.

Iona has a great basketball pedigree, as does Siena who draws a very strong local following. UVM is one of the best programs in New England over the last decade and has the potential to grow into much more.

To assert we are above Iona is kind of hilarious, to be honest. I'm not sure if you guys were there or if it's all just a cinderalla story to you now... but we almost lost to Iona AT HOME in the middle of the '17-'18 season, a year fans of this program will look back at with pretty much nothing but Keaney blue blinders in the future.

To think we are above those programs in any significant manner is much funnier than them being added to the Atlantic 10, folks. Sorry to break you the news.

That said, care to share why you guys disagree with the idea of these teams instead of just being smartasses? If you haven't noticed, the pickings left in NCAAD1 are slim.

[the_one_mike]

I am glad we have something much more meaningful to discuss than this topic right now.

Don't disagree with you... in fact, I agree.

Fortunately, as humans, we can explore and discuss several topics simultaneously. It's almost like somebody should create a platform to share these discussions on the internet.

Oh, wait.

[Taylor Swift]

Most people I know who went/graduated from UVM go up there to visit for craft beer fests not to see a basketball game. It’s a school that I’ve never associated with a strong basketball following. I am actually not being facetious for once here. My litmus test would be going back to see a basketball game if they’re that noteworthy.

Siena and Iona I do not seeing as value add to what’s currently in the A10. People poo poo the conference enough and want to add that? I’m not the commissioner nor will I ever be but don’t want to add colleges and universities who play to half capacity pseudo high school gymnasiums. We already have a few

[the_one_mike]

Most people I know who went/graduated from UVM go up there to visit for craft beer fests not to see a basketball game. It’s a school that I’ve never associated with a strong basketball following. I am actually not being facetious for once here. My litmus test would be going back to see a basketball game if they’re that noteworthy.

Siena and Iona I do not seeing as value add to what’s currently in the A10. People poo poo the conference enough and want to add that? I’m not the commissioner nor will I ever be but don’t want to add colleges and universities who play to half capacity pseudo high school gymnasiums.

Both your points are very valid and I simply think of expanding the A10 as a realistic way to maybe add some notable opponents to conference play. The discussed teams are just a few out of handful that bounce around in my mind as quality local opponents I'd like to see a bit more.

Burlington is 150% what you just described... but I've actually gone to a home game in the last couple years with a recent grad. He (and the UVM alum friends he introduced me to) swear that UVM is as good as URI, if not better. Seriously. And they have a few valid arguments.

They are aware of our recent success but don't think of it as anything much more than their 6 tournament appearances since 2003... and, to be fair, our performance really ISN'T better over that period of time. Just like us, they also have two tournament wins in that same period of time... granted one did come in the first four.

While Burlington isn't going to turn into French Lick, Indiana tomorrow there's certainly a buzz in town around their basketball program.

I guess it comes down to what matters more... do you want a small gym, like UVM or Iona, packed with loyal fans? Or a 10k capacity Mullins center at 20% capacity and as quiet as a Sunday sermon? Certainly a topic that's up for debate.

I understand the upside of playing larger universities with big endowments and the facilities that come with that but I see more value in a conference filled with teams that have a fanbase that demand excellence. I'd imagine some blend of that is ideal, big and small... the A10 has been trying to find it but certainly could add a lot by simply subtracting a few teams (Fordham, LaSalle, Duquesne I'm looking at you).

[rambone 78]

Siena has a large arena and their attendance is better than at least half of the A10...when they're good anyway.

Imo they would be a good add.

[the_one_mike]

Siena has a large arena and their attendance is better than at least half of the A10...when they're good anyway.

Imo they would be a good add.

I just came back to edit my post and add this. For some reason, I thought they played in an arena a little smaller than the Ryan. Turns out their home games can seat 14,500 and have sold it out as recently as 2010.

Just more evidence that our fans are a little trigger happy to turn our noses up at opportunity...

[rambone 78]

Plus Siena is close by a rather large population center....they draw well when they're good...just would need to add another level of commitment to join the A10.

[the_one_mike]

Plus Siena is close by a rather large population center....they draw well when they're good...just would need to add another level of commitment to join the A10.

To be honest, I like to dream of something entirely new. The Atlantic 10 name has become associated with second-best. It's like a hand-me-down.

If you're talking about branding, the A10 name is virtually unable to be saved at this point.

Would be nice just to scoop the cream off the top of the rest of the small conferences and run with it... Basically the top 2/3 of the A10 plus a few handpicked teams, minus UMass knowing their goal is to move on to FBS conferences anyways.

Think big, I do.

[Taylor Swift]

Siena has a large arena and their attendance is better than at least half of the A10...when they're good anyway.

Imo they would be a good add.

I just came back to edit my post and add this. For some reason, I thought they played in an arena a little smaller than the Ryan. Turns out their home games can seat 14,500 and have sold it out as recently as 2010.

Just more evidence that our fans are a little trigger happy to turn our noses up at opportunity...

Say that again though. A sell out game as recently as 2010.

I get the whole argument about UMASS that you can hear a pin drop. I took the bus trip up there for the game and I am pretty sure our entire bench could hear everything I was saying when I was about ten rows back. At the same time UMASS hockey is #2 in the nation and that certainly has a strong market as well as a huge consideration in terms of their athletic donations.

[the_one_mike]

Siena has a large arena and their attendance is better than at least half of the A10...when they're good anyway.

Imo they would be a good add.

I just came back to edit my post and add this. For some reason, I thought they played in an arena a little smaller than the Ryan. Turns out their home games can seat 14,500 and have sold it out as recently as 2010.

Just more evidence that our fans are a little trigger happy to turn our noses up at opportunity...

Say that again though. A sell out game as recently as 2010.

I get the whole argument about UMASS that you can hear a pin drop. I took the bus trip up there for the game and I am pretty sure our entire bench could hear everything I was saying when I was about ten rows back. At the same time UMASS hockey is #2 in the nation and that certainly has a strong market as well as a huge consideration in terms of their athletic donations.

Don't focus on the wrong details...

There's a pretty fine line between garnering a strong local following and regularly selling out an arena double the size of the Ryan Center. Or selling it out at all.

You scoff at "as recent as 2010" but I'd be willing to bet we wouldn't even come close to selling 15k for a home game on our best day... even if we went back in time to last season and guaranteed Danny Hurley himself was going to show his bare ass to the referees as a halftime show. Even if we went back to 1999 and told all 15k Lamar would sign their ticket stubs for future eBay sales.

Classic case of... who do we think we are? Versus... who are we, really?

Also worth noting is that ESPN loved Siena during their runs in March. Got a lot more coverage than ours... and the outcome was actually the same. Two straight years making it to the round of 32. Juuuuust saying. *shrug*

[bigappleram]

Siena and Stony Brook are only programs worth discussing IMO in mid atlantic/New England area. Iona and UVM don’t have the infrastructure to expand.

[the_one_mike]

Siena and Stony Brook are only programs worth discussing IMO in mid atlantic/New England area. Iona and UVM don’t have the infrastructure to expand.

Valid point.

I'll agree that Iona most likely wouldn't work in many scenarios for that fact alone.

But while UVM doesn't have the infrastructure... they certainly have powerful enough alumni to make it a reality if this were ever a goal of the University. That's why they are always a valid player to me. The unassuming hippies can move mountains... when they want something, they get it done.

The University has also been scooping up more and more former commercial property in South Burlington. Wouldn't be a terrible place to build something in the event they ever chose to do so. That area DOES have the infrastructure to get you in and out.

[Puck Frovidence]

Burlington is 150% what you just described... but I've actually gone to a home game in the last couple years with a recent grad. He (and the UVM alum friends he introduced me to) swear that UVM is as good as URI, if not better. Seriously. And they have a few valid arguments.

They are aware of our recent success but don't think of it as anything much more than their 6 tournament appearances since 2003... and, to be fair, our performance really ISN'T better over that period of time. Just like us, they also have two tournament wins in that same period of time... granted one did come in the first four.

While Burlington isn't going to turn into French Lick, Indiana tomorrow there's certainly a buzz in town around their basketball program.

I guess it comes down to what matters more... do you want a small gym, like UVM or Iona, packed with loyal fans? Or a 10k capacity Mullins center at 20% capacity and as quiet as a Sunday sermon? Certainly a topic that's up for debate.

I understand the upside of playing larger universities with big endowments and the facilities that come with that but I see more value in a conference filled with teams that have a fanbase that demand excellence. I'd imagine some blend of that is ideal, big and small... the A10 has been trying to find it but certainly could add a lot by simply subtracting a few teams (Fordham, LaSalle, Duquesne I'm looking at you).

Dude Burlington's great, and I'm sure your buddy is a good guy but the idea the UVM is ripe for that jump is ludicrous. I'm not trying to single you out either, this comes up all the time because they've had a level of success and they're a New England team so people toss their name around. UVM is dominant in a terrible, terrible league. Yes I know, America East had some success against a very weak A10 this year but that has a lot to do with us and very little to do with them. Most AE teams play to empty gyms and I mean gyms. UVM literally plays in a high school style gym with the roll-out wooden bleachers. They pack it, but capacity is just over 3k. Burlington itself has a population smaller than East Providence, so there's a serious ceiling on how many eyes and asses they can ever actually hope to get.

The AE teams UVM is beating up on all season are hockey schools that don't care about basketball and SUNYs that don't prioritize athletics (both of which are perfectly respectable, it just doesn't equate to a tough bball schedule). Aside from that epic upset of Syracuse they are perennial one and dones in the tourney. We were in the same conference with them for nearly 40 years, and in their entire history they've beaten Rhody 3 times. 3. That's less than Maine. Recent successes aside, they still consistently fall to the A10s worst teams, and the bottom of the A10 is grim in a good year, which the past few haven't been.

If we had to had to take an AE we'd be much better off with Stony Brook or UMBC (which just built a brand new 5k arena and obviously pulled off one of the greatest upsets EVAH) but honestly it's still not desirable.

TLDR: Look I love Vermont, love Burlington its an awesome and unique city. UVM is a great school too, especially with academics. But let's stop the madness people, they don't belong in the A10 or any hypothetical super basketball/1-AA football conference.

In terms of conference fixing, TP got me on the "addition by subtraction" track a long time ago and I'm still 100% down.

[the_one_mike]

Burlington is 150% what you just described... but I've actually gone to a home game in the last couple years with a recent grad. He (and the UVM alum friends he introduced me to) swear that UVM is as good as URI, if not better. Seriously. And they have a few valid arguments.

They are aware of our recent success but don't think of it as anything much more than their 6 tournament appearances since 2003... and, to be fair, our performance really ISN'T better over that period of time. Just like us, they also have two tournament wins in that same period of time... granted one did come in the first four.

While Burlington isn't going to turn into French Lick, Indiana tomorrow there's certainly a buzz in town around their basketball program.

I guess it comes down to what matters more... do you want a small gym, like UVM or Iona, packed with loyal fans? Or a 10k capacity Mullins center at 20% capacity and as quiet as a Sunday sermon? Certainly a topic that's up for debate.

I understand the upside of playing larger universities with big endowments and the facilities that come with that but I see more value in a conference filled with teams that have a fanbase that demand excellence. I'd imagine some blend of that is ideal, big and small... the A10 has been trying to find it but certainly could add a lot by simply subtracting a few teams (Fordham, LaSalle, Duquesne I'm looking at you).

Dude Burlington's great, and I'm sure your buddy is a good guy but the idea the UVM is ripe for that jump is ludicrous. I'm not trying to single you out either, this comes up all the time because they've had a level of success and they're a New England team so people toss their name around. UVM is dominant in a terrible, terrible league. Yes I know, America East had some success against a very weak A10 this year but that has a lot to do with us and very little to do with them. Most AE teams play to empty gyms and I mean gyms. UVM literally plays in a high school style gym with the roll-out wooden bleachers. They pack it, but capacity is just over 3k. Burlington itself has a population smaller than East Providence, so there's a serious ceiling on how many eyes and asses they can ever actually hope to get.

The AE teams UVM is beating up on all season are hockey schools that don't care about basketball and SUNYs that don't prioritize athletics (both of which are perfectly respectable, it just doesn't equate to a tough bball schedule). Aside from that epic upset of Syracuse they are perennial one and dones in the tourney. We were in the same conference with them for nearly 40 years, and in their entire history they've beaten Rhody 3 times. 3. That's less than Maine. Recent successes aside, they still consistently fall to the A10s worst teams, and the bottom of the A10 is grim in a good year, which the past few haven't been.

If we had to had to take an AE we'd be much better off with Stony Brook or UMBC (which just built a brand new 5k arena and obviously pulled off one of the greatest upsets EVAH) but honestly it's still not desirable.

TLDR: Look I love Vermont, love Burlington its an awesome and unique city. UVM is a great school too, especially with academics. But let's stop the madness people, they don't belong in the A10 or any hypothetical super basketball/1-AA football conference.

In terms of conference fixing, TP got me on the "addition by subtraction" track a long time ago and I'm still 100% down.

I never said I agreed with their argument! Lol

All the reasons you listed are the same that I argued with them in URI's defense and definitely I believe them to be true, as well.

But I also like to assess things from all angles and the average person doesn't have nearly that much context about both URI and UVM. From the outside we are not as easily distinguishable as URI fans would like... As being evidenced by the varying takes in this thread on a program such as Siena. There's a lot of opinions out there on D1 basketball programs but numbers are numbers and UVM has certainly performed the last decade plus.

I don't think anyone with context, my friends included, truly believe that the UVM basketball program can compete with the URI program. It's actually a literal joke if you get down to the nuts and bolts of it. You're definitely right that their success is connected to the competition in their conference and I 100% agree with your post.

My argument in return is... Would you prefer UVM, or would you prefer Fordham every year? Lol. Neither is great but at least UVM has a following and has achieved a level of success to some degree. I guess you could say the same for Fordham... just not in the last century or so.

Unless URI figures out the football thing, we are pretty limited with options elsewhere. Le sigh.

In the grand scheme I'll agree that the best option is probably addition through subtraction... but it's not so farfetched to imagine UVM making the investment to step up to the next level. Look at Bryant... they went from D2, to independent, to conferenced D1 program in pretty short order. Crazier things have happened than a University investing a little bit more of their resources into their athletics department.

I'd also imagine, in the right context, the city of Burlington and the alumni of UVM would support the idea of a new, modest dual-use hockey/baskeball arena. Maybe a new conference would be that context? Who knows. Just thinking out loud!

[Rhodysk]

As I watched the Carolina/duke game last night I wondered would I really want URI and Pee Cee in the same conference.
There is nothing I HATE more than anything Pee Cee.
But as I watched Carolina/duke play for the third time this season maybe even a 4th later in the NCAA, I don’t know if I could stomach it. I get the ACC is a huge conference with a lot of money but is it good for a mid-major conference with teams playing 3 maybe 4 times a year? The wins would be awesome but the loses would be devastating.
Could you imagine beating Pee Cee 3 times the 3rd time getting to a conference championship only to lose to Pee Cee in the sweet 16. Ouch.
Just some random thoughts.

[Billyboy78]

My daughter graduated from UVM last year. Good basketball program, but hockey rules. BTW, I love Burlington. Reminds me of Newport a little, but with the lake replacing the ocean.

[PillPushr]

I would say this discussion has been focused too much on Northeast/New England schools. If you are truly trying to make a conference that can somewhat compete with the Big East, AAC and P5 conferences you have to think bigger. Here is my stab at the new Eastern Athletic Conference.

West Division

Saint Louis
Missouri State
Northern Iowa
Loyola (Ill.)
Illinois State
Indiana State
Belmont
Murray State

East Division

Dayton
St. Bonaventure
Rhode Island
St. Joseph's
VCU
Richmond
George Mason
Davidson

Tough call on whether to include George Washington, but I honestly feel like that is a program in decline and has terrible facilites. You look at some of the western schools from the MVC and they just look so much more impressive from a whole program standpoint. I was torn between GW and Murray State though, I could be convinced otherwise. Also considered College of Charleston, Northeastern, Southern Illinois, Wofford, Chattanooga. And working under premise this is a basketball only league, so UMass was out.

[McRam]

Too bad Buffalo has a football program.

[McRam]

This could be an interesting one- How about Florida Gulf Coast?

[theblueram]

There should be no adds to this league. The A10 would be better by subtraction.

[UCH21377]

I would think if A10 expands or needs replacement teams it would look south not west. Belmont, Chrarleston, Murray State. I really don’t think some sort of new conference is realistic at this point.