Big East - Basketball Only Schools Leaving

Rhody74 · Unread post by **Rhody74** » 11 years ago

The schools of keenest interest to the seven are Butler, Dayton, St. Louis and Xavier, with Creighton, Gonzaga, St. Mary’s and La Salle also on the radar.

LaSalle??????

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/college/ ... SfFsKBVJTL

RIFan · Unread post by **RIFan** » 11 years ago

I just hope they take Creighton, Gonzaga & St. Mary’s and stay at 10 teams. Wont happen...they will also want to destroy their closest competitor...us.

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 11 years ago

51.5 million for each team in a non BCS league? Sounds like bullshit to me.
Seems like Dayton has no mind of their own, and if Xavier does something, Dayton does it.
Sheep?

Billyboy78 · Unread post by **Billyboy78** » 11 years ago

section(105) wrote:so then we/ll end up in a A-10ish kinda conference, with the trickle down effect being that the A-10 loss of teams to the new BE/C7 will result an effort to replace them with............

....lesser teams. When all is said and done and the A10 is raided of its' top teams, I wonder what goes through the mind of the Hurleys, of the transfers like Biruta and of the two HS commits.

ramfan85 · Unread post by **ramfan85** » 11 years ago

Whatever happens, it's imperative that we get good as soon as possible. We don't want to be at the bottom of the conference when all this shakes out.

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 11 years ago

Billyboy78 wrote:I'm getting sick to my stomach. The A10 and URI were supposed to be on the rise with a great future. I knew it was too good to be true.

Stuff happens. The only way URI ends up in considerably worse position than we were in before is if 9 A10 teams join the C7 and Rhody isn't one of them. That could conceivably happen, but until it does the belly aching is over dramatic.

One thing URI fans should remember is that all of this tumult has had a negative impact on a LOT of programs. In this particular conference shuffle, you could argue that the only winners are Xavier, Dayton and (hopefully only) the third team that joins them. Everyone else is a net loser. The C7 teams, for all their bluster, have lost as badly as anyone this side of UConn. You think they are better off without Syracuse, Pitt, WVU, Louisville, UConn, Notre Dame, UC, BC, VT and Miami? I don't. Worse off still are UConn, UC and Temple, all of whom invested heavily in football to secure their future and got left out in the cold. And that is just THIS chain of realignments. This has gone on all over the country for years and years.

All of this woe-is-us stuff is sickening. I hope the people at the helm of the conference and our university have more fight and ingenuity in them than some of you guys do. There is still a play out there to be made, and a quality conference to be formed, but you have to be a doer and not a viewer. We need to be proactive and not sit around feeling sorry for ourselves and waiting for everyone else to tell us where we're going to play.

Essam · Unread post by **Essam** » 11 years ago

Most of you are looking at Rhody as a strong member of the Atlantic 10. In reality they are a bottom feeder for the last two years and a middle of the road type member for most of the last 20 years. Their outlook for the future is very good as long as they keep the Hurleys.

Rhody74 · Unread post by **Rhody74** » 11 years ago

It looks like SLU is ready to go if the C7 want them ....

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/ ... 240f3.html

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 11 years ago

TP, I like you last paragraph.
Lots of chicken little's here, running for cover.
It's not the end of the world. 27 months is a long time in
this changing climate.
Those who embraced the medicority of Jim Baron, are now seeing
the results of stagnation for over a decade.
Not having a relevant program since 1999 is a killer.
Hurley will have us up and running in the next two years.
Only then, can we become a player in this conference shuffle game.

Billyboy78 · Unread post by **Billyboy78** » 11 years ago

I'm just looking at worst case scenario. If 3 or even 4 of the best teams leave the A10...if the new BE negotiates a deal to waive the 2 year waiting period...these are both a possibility. The Hurleys left Wagner because of their frustration with the lack of NCAA bids in their league. If the A10 is reduced to a 2 bid league, they are back in the same position. All of this is happening so quickly and the news gets progressively worse. If someone can paint me a picture where the A10 comes out of this as a great basketball league with 5 or 6 bids (or even 3 or 4), I'd like to hear the solution. I am trying to stay positive. I just worry that with the worst case scenario, we also lose the Hurleys.

ace · Unread post by **ace** » 11 years ago

Another thing to keep in mind is that they (Dan and Bobby) are most likely not always going to be a packaged deal.

I'm not getting worked up about anything until it's finalized. And even then, maybe all this change is the new reality.

bigappleram · Unread post by **bigappleram** » 11 years ago

someone said it right, who is to say the BE7 plus 3 A10 teams will command in the TV market? do PC fans really think PC vs Xavier is as valuable to a broadcaster as PC vs Syracuse? so given that its not, how could the per school slice of the TV pie get bigger once they leave the football schools. doesnt add up.

also i read an article where it said that in many cases the lion share of revenue for both BE7 and A10 schools comes from NCAA appearance money, not TV money....with Xavier being a perennial tourney team while in the A10 arent they risking a lot of money to jump into a league where they could now be a middle tier team instead of the cream of the crop. dayton immediately becomes a lower tier program in that new league.

section(105) · Unread post by **section(105)** » 11 years ago

Question, who exactly would be the "decider(s)" for URI to accept an invite to any newly formed league? And regarding TP's last paragrpah, I hope our athletic dept admin/leaders have the right stuff to be a doer and not viewer. I wonder if those folks have any significant role and/or influence in the offices of the current A-10??

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 11 years ago

Oh, please!
In a two bid league, besides VCU, who is the competition among those left?
And just where are the Hurleys going to go, before they have any real success in D-1?
The sky isn't falling!
BAR hit it right. These clingons on the Big East, are acting as if they're UCLA in the Wooden years.
Irrelevant programs, combined with has beens like Marquette, Villanova (haven't they been great lately?)
Georgetown.
Does anyone in his right mind think there's a big TV market for any of these teams nationally?
This isn't back when Syracuse-Georgetown was must see viewing.
Dayton is making a huge mistake. Xavier might be making a lateral slide.
I honestly don't get all this self congratualtions going on with this new conference. It's a much
watered down Big East, with a couple of good programs added. This is assuming Butler goes, too.

Rhody74 · Unread post by **Rhody74** » 11 years ago

I've been reading a lot over the past two days (my employer wouldn't be happy

). I certainly don't claim any inside knowledge, but it appears most likely that the C7 will try to leave as soon as next year, despite the supposed 27-month waiting period. They'll either invite 3 or 5 teams. I don't think not being Catholic is a hindrance (ie, Butler) but being public might (see VCU). For URI, best case would be if the new league limited itself to 10 teams and picked off Xavier, SLU and Creighton. I think the A10 can survive that quite nicely, especially if they can invite George Mason and perhaps Temple back on a basketball only basis.

I'm not convinced X is a goner, by the way. They may be just being diplomatic, but their public posturing so far seems supportive of the A10. However, if they can be assured of $1million or more in TV money, they'd be stupid not to accept the invitation. I think they're good enough to compete for NCAA bids in the new league.

ramfan85 · Unread post by **ramfan85** » 11 years ago

Hopefully, having the Hurleys will be a positive for a future league. If baron was still here, we'd automatically be toast. If he could only have gone to one NCAA tournament during those "choke years" when we started out so well it might make a difference. (Maybe not).
BAR makes another good point about X. Their road to the tournament becomes harder if they leave.
No league is sending everyone to the tournament. There have to be bottom teams every year.
I wonder why LaSalle is mentioned and not St. Joes?

Seawrightspostgame · Unread post by **Seawrightspostgame** » 11 years ago

I think when there is a re alignment people inflate the value of teams. PC is worth Cooley and his ability to put Ledo on the floor with Dunn in the next couple years, other wise they are back to being awful. St Johns has been awful. Nova beat St Josephs in the last .10 seconds at home. Seton Hall?? Depaul?? Marquette and Georgetown are great basketball programs but more the 35-15 ranking range and Marquette has never won a Big East title!!?

I have some hope in the A10 leadership. They have made some good moves recently. Losing Xavier Butler and Dayton would hurt for sure, but with VCU, maybe adding GMU and a few others can make the A10 solid still. There is room for keeping this conference what it has been. Xavier is a gem elite program, but oh well.

I think this whole matter hurts the most because a few months ago it seemed like the A10 and Rhodey had really turned the corner towards something special. Damn those C7s for feeling the momentum and attempting to break it up!

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 11 years ago

The thing that is the most stunning to me is the reaction of people on this board. I'm curious as to how anyone that follows college basketball could be remotely surprised by this? We've been talking about this being inevitable for years now. And the talk about the "big, mean C7" misses the point that they have been hurt by all this realignment as much as anybody. What we are expecting to experience now is just the trickle down from it.

Adapt to the circumstances and keep moving forward.

SmartyBarrett · Unread post by **SmartyBarrett** » 11 years ago

http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcsports. ... atholic-7/

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 11 years ago

....plus Dayton, and probably St. Louis and Creighton. We already knew this, basically.

We can build a quality 2-4 bid league out of VCU, Richmond, St. Joes, URI, GW, UMass and add some schools (my candidates are Wright, Wichita and Cleveland States, plus George Mason and Bradley), and trim some fat (bye Fordham and maybe others). Not perfect but would still be a quality conference and, more importantly, one that URI can compete in over the long term.

SmartyBarrett · Unread post by **SmartyBarrett** » 11 years ago

TruePoint wrote:....plus Dayton, and probably St. Louis and Creighton. We already knew this, basically.

This is the first article I've seen that moves past "probably". It also mentions VCU as a candidate to leave, and not part of the new-look A10 you mention.

BFC · Unread post by **BFC** » 11 years ago

TruePoint wrote:The thing that is the most stunning to me is the reaction of people on this board. I'm curious as to how anyone that follows college basketball could be remotely surprised by this? We've been talking about this being inevitable for years now. And the talk about the "big, mean C7" misses the point that they have been hurt by all this realignment as much as anybody. What we are expecting to experience now is just the trickle down from it.

Adapt to the circumstances and keep moving forward.

We're you stunned when people on this board were excited a couple of days ago because they thought it might work out in URI's favor?

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 11 years ago

No, not really. I was among those hopeful. Obviously nobody knew exactly what was going to happen, and the idea of it working in our favor was obviously welcome on this board. But I don't understand hope people could have never considered the possibility that he Catholic schools could peel off some of our small school/catholic members.

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 11 years ago

SmartyBarrett wrote:
TruePoint wrote:....plus Dayton, and probably St. Louis and Creighton. We already knew this, basically.
This is the first article I've seen that moves past "probably". It also mentions VCU as a candidate to leave, and not part of the new-look A10 you mention.

Sure. Lots of moving parts. Could be a combination of a bunch of teams. I still believe that unless 9 A10 teams join the C7 and URI isn't among them, then its not doomsday in Rhody land. There are lots of different scenarios that are suboptimal to various degrees short of that.

SmartyBarrett · Unread post by **SmartyBarrett** » 11 years ago

TruePoint wrote:
SmartyBarrett wrote:
TruePoint wrote:....plus Dayton, and probably St. Louis and Creighton. We already knew this, basically.
This is the first article I've seen that moves past "probably". It also mentions VCU as a candidate to leave, and not part of the new-look A10 you mention.
Sure. Lots of moving parts. Could be a combination of a bunch of teams. I still believe that unless 9 A10 teams join the C7 and URI isn't among them, then its not doomsday in Rhody land. There are lots of different scenarios that are suboptimal to various degrees short of that.

Completely agree. Also, the legal mess that is sure to ensue is only in the early stages at this point, so it's too soon to say anything for sure. But everything I've read over the past few hours indicates that Butler and Xavier are definitively gone - it's no longer speculation and "probably going to happen" at this point.

BFC · Unread post by **BFC** » 11 years ago

TruePoint wrote:No, not really. I was among those hopeful. Obviously nobody knew exactly what was going to happen, and the idea of it working in our favor was obviously welcome on this board. But I don't understand hope people could have never considered the possibility that he Catholic schools could peel off some of our small school/catholic members.

If the conference getting better is something to be happy about than the conference getting worse is something to be unhappy about. A week ago we were in the best basketball conference outside of the BCS, now we're in limbo with a bunch of mediocre programs. It's not a nail in our program's coffin, but it certainly makes our road to where we want to be harder. I don't see why we shouldn't acknowledge that, we can't be rah rah about everything.

Billyboy78 · Unread post by **Billyboy78** » 11 years ago

BFC wrote:
TruePoint wrote:No, not really. I was among those hopeful. Obviously nobody knew exactly what was going to happen, and the idea of it working in our favor was obviously welcome on this board. But I don't understand hope people could have never considered the possibility that he Catholic schools could peel off some of our small school/catholic members.
If the conference getting better is something to be happy about than the conference getting worse is something to be unhappy about. A week ago we were in the best basketball conference outside of the BCS, now we're in limbo with a bunch of mediocre programs. It's not a nail in our program's coffin, but it certainly makes our road to where we want to be harder. I don't see why we shouldn't acknowledge that, we can't be rah rah about everything.

That's my point. In a much weaker league, our expectation of going "big time" is diminished and our level of recruit goes down a notch. If you take away 3 or 4 of the best programs, is this the kind of league EC Matthews envisioned when he signed his LOI here? Yes, playing for the Hurleys was a big part of it, but playing in a great basketball conference was also a big part of it. I'm sure it can still be a good league, but one that attracts 4 star players and big name coaches? I'm not so sure.

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 11 years ago

I don't know what EC Matthews thought process was in particular. I do know that Butler and Gonzaga and VCU became good programs in conferences that weren't. I know that coaching is the most important thing in recruiting and developing players. And I know that if URI is the best team in the best league it can find, it will be fun to be a fan of the program, people will come to the games and donate money, and we will be able to afford to hire coaches that can keep the train rolling.

Is it disappointing that our league will lose good members? Yes. Is it disappointing that we won't be part of a great new league? Of course. But if there isn't anything to be done about it, I'd prefer not to just bitch about how the C7 schools are mean to us and how screwed we are now that we can't get into the dance by being the 6th or 7th best program in our league. I don't think it's a good use of time and energy (or a smart use of this public forum) to lament how no recruit will ever want to come here again.

How do we best position ourselves going forward? What will our future league look like? These are the things that interest me now, more than whining about how our fanciful dream of a conference scenario didn't pan out exactly how we had wanted.

section(105) · Unread post by **section(105)** » 11 years ago

The more things change the more they remain the same. The league and its members will continue to be the best they can be, recruit the desired student athletes, develop and build a hoops program that competes for league championships, play a national competative schedule, fill more of the seats in the RC, and keep reaching for the NCAA Sunday Selection Show with our kids in Keaney Blue waiting for brackets to be filled...........

Rhody74 · Unread post by **Rhody74** » 11 years ago

TruePoint wrote:I don't know what EC Matthews thought process was in particular. I do know that Butler and Gonzaga and VCU became good programs in conferences that weren't. I know that coaching is the most important thing in recruiting and developing players. And I know that if URI is the best team in the best league it can find, it will be fun to be a fan of the program, people will come to the games and donate money, and we will be able to afford to hire coaches that can keep the train rolling.

Is it disappointing that our league will lose good members? Yes. Is it disappointing that we won't be part of a great new league? Of course. But if there isn't anything to be done about it, I'd prefer not to just bitch about how the C7 schools are mean to us and how screwed we are now that we can't get into the dance by being the 6th or 7th best program in our league. I don't think it's a good use of time and energy (or a smart use of this public forum) to lament how no recruit will ever want to come here again.

How do we best position ourselves going forward? What will our future league look like? These are the things that interest me now, more than whining about how our fanciful dream of a conference scenario didn't pan out exactly how we had wanted.

Yeah! TP .... this is the best comment I've seen on this board about this topic. Many of the teams we aspire to be made it because of great coaching. We have a great coach. We have decent facilities. Sure, being in a top league would make things easier, but it's not impossible, even in a diminished A10. Xavier, Dayton, VCU, Butler, George Mason, and many other successful "mid-majors" have proven it.

TexRam · Unread post by **TexRam** » 11 years ago

This article from SI gives a good summary of the legal and financial hurdles/issues down the road facing the Big East:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/colleg ... &eref=sihp

And I agree with the assessment of "move onward and forward". It's most likely that the A-10 loses some teams, but hopefully Bernadette McGlade can continue to be aggressive and grab some decent schools like Detroit, George Mason, or a team like Wichita State as TruePoint mentioned... And I agree, it would be nice to get rid of A-10 ball-and-chain basement dwellers like Fordham... Let URI become great over the next few years and see where we are at then.

The schools that should be worried right now are schools like Memphis, who left Conference USA to go to the Big East... are now in C-USA 2.0, especially with UCONN and Cinci itching to leave. Temple, same thing. UCONN and Cinci can't be feeling good either, but will probably be snatched up along the way. If Boise State, Navy and SD State back out, what happens then?

BFC · Unread post by **BFC** » 11 years ago

I'm certainly not on board with the doomsday scenario but this is the place for us to react to good and bad. Is the negativity productive or a good use of our time? No, it's a messageboard, none of this is a good use of our time. Saying we're gonna believe in ourselves and work hard and make our crappy conference the best crappy conference or whatever, is productive? I wasn't overly excited when there was a slim chance the news was going to be good for us and I'm not overly upset now that it's very likely bad, but I do think we should be able to discuss it without getting attitude adjustment lectures.

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 11 years ago

Sorry, BFC. I'm not trying to lecture. And yes, all of this is a terrible waste of time. I think in general sitting around and talking about how unfortunate we are and how bad everything is does not appeal to me on any level. That is true in any context and about any topic. Philosophically, I just don't believe in that attitude. Of course if that is the way people feel, they should post it. That's what message boards are for. I'm just advocating for a different way of looking at things.

RIKen822 · Unread post by **RIKen822** » 11 years ago

At the end of the day, X or Dayton would not be joining the Big East but a league where Georgetown is the marquis member. A St John's program that is ignored in NYC. A PC team that has struggled for the last decade. Hopefully, they take a step back and realize that.

adam914 · Unread post by **adam914** » 11 years ago

RIKen822 wrote:At the end of the day, X or Dayton would not be joining the Big East but a league where Georgetown is the marquis member. A St John's program that is ignored in NYC. A PC team that has struggled for the last decade. Hopefully, they take a step back and realize that.

While I agree with what you are saying for the most part, that is not what will be the deciding factor. If they can get substantially more money, and it sounds like they can/will from all reports, then they are out the door as soon as possible.

ramsman75 · Unread post by **ramsman75** » 11 years ago

I'm not gonna waste another moment thinking about this...everybody is in a rush to be the one to break the story...analyze the possible outcomes, etc,etc,etc. Until the announcement comes, it's all just so much posturing. The media is falling all over themselves to make it appear that they have the inside dope...How's this little excerpt from the article linked above...

"The seven schools — DePaul, Georgetown, Marquette, Providence, St. John’s, Seton Hall and Villanova — will look to add five schools and reconstitute themselves as a basketball-centric league with schools located primarily in urban Northeast markets. The schools of keenest interest to the seven are Butler, Dayton, St. Louis and Xavier, with Creighton, Gonzaga, St. Mary’s and La Salle also on the radar."

Last time I checked, the only "urban Northeast market" I see in that group is LaSalle??? HUH??? That group has more west coast than east coast prospects.

rjsuperfly66 · Unread post by **rjsuperfly66** » 11 years ago

RIKen822 wrote:At the end of the day, X or Dayton would not be joining the Big East but a league where Georgetown is the marquis member. A St John's program that is ignored in NYC. A PC team that has struggled for the last decade. Hopefully, they take a step back and realize that.

That argument is stupid though. Has PC been good from a W/L standpoint? No. But by most statisticians metrics, PC would likely on average have been a middle of the road A-10 team. Over the past five years, they have been better than LaSalle, St. Josephs, Duquesne, St. Bonaventure, UMASS, GW, Fordham, and um, URI. You can't argue W/L when it comes to this situation. The Big East has been one of the best conferences in college basketball since 2005. The A-10 has been one of the best mid-majors, but again, that puts them constantly between 6-8 in terms of conference strength. A team going 15-17 in the Big East is probably a 20-22 win a season A-10 solid NIT team. But there is no way of measuring that outside of Sagarin, Pomeroy, etc.

DePaul sucks, that is true, but the other "bad teams" in the C7, at worst they are middle of the A-10. That is the reality of the situation.

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 11 years ago

Ok, but is being "middle of the pack A10" what you are hanging your hat on now? How is three historically great and presently pretty good programs, three middle of the pack A10 programs and one awful program a huge upgrade for Xavier? It's an upgrade for Xavier in perception only. I think that is what frustrates URI fans.

section(105) · Unread post by **section(105)** » 11 years ago

let/s welcome Larry Brown to the RC and kick some mustang ass, no??.......movin on...............

rjsuperfly66 · Unread post by **rjsuperfly66** » 11 years ago

TruePoint wrote:Ok, but is being "middle of the pack A10" what you are hanging your hat on now? How is three historically great and presently pretty good programs, three middle of the pack A10 programs and one awful program a huge upgrade for Xavier? It's an upgrade for Xavier in perception only. I think that is what frustrates URI fans.

I'm not saying it is anything special, trust me. But I feel like a lot of URI fans out there (and not all) point to the fact that PC has been a bad Big East team, as well St. John's, Seton Hall, and DePaul, and say "See, those teams are garbage, who would want to go join a conference with them?" My point was just that they aren't as bad as their W/L suggest, at least in comparison to their A-10 counterparts. It's easy to say, those teams have bad records, who would want to join them, but why are their records not good, and what makes the A-10 more attractive? Compare them to the A-10 schools I listed, and over time and more recently, they have been stronger teams, maybe not be W/L though, but by strength metrics.

Honestly, if you are Xavier or Butler or any other school, why would you stay? No one knows what the money will be in the new conference, but it will undoubtably be double if not triple what the A-10 is making now. Even if "rumors" say it is $1.5 million (which I don't believe), it should still be considerably higher than the $350,000 they are getting now. It will also be stronger, top to bottom, than the A-10 by a considerable margin. Providence, who has been a perennial BE cellar-dweller over the past four years, has still been better on average than almost half of the A-10, so if program-caliber wise they are still near the bottom of your newly formed conference, you are probably pretty good shape when it comes to basketball-only. So if you are Xavier, Dayton, St. Louis, or any other school and that is your bottom, you have to know you have a stronger conference.

More money + Stronger Conference = No brainer if it is me... Unfortunately, there is no loyalty any more. It's sad it really is.

Shinze88 · Unread post by **Shinze88** » 11 years ago

rjsuperfly66 wrote:
RIKen822 wrote:At the end of the day, X or Dayton would not be joining the Big East but a league where Georgetown is the marquis member. A St John's program that is ignored in NYC. A PC team that has struggled for the last decade. Hopefully, they take a step back and realize that.
That argument is stupid though. Has PC been good from a W/L standpoint? No. But by most statisticians metrics, PC would likely on average have been a middle of the road A-10 team. Over the past five years, they have been better than LaSalle, St. Josephs, Duquesne, St. Bonaventure, UMASS, GW, Fordham, and um, URI. You can't argue W/L when it comes to this situation. The Big East has been one of the best conferences in college basketball since 2005. The A-10 has been one of the best mid-majors, but again, that puts them constantly between 6-8 in terms of conference strength. A team going 15-17 in the Big East is probably a 20-22 win a season A-10 solid NIT team. But there is no way of measuring that outside of Sagarin, Pomeroy, etc.

DePaul sucks, that is true, but the other "bad teams" in the C7, at worst they are middle of the A-10. That is the reality of the situation.

Um ... Huh? How has pc been better than these schools over the past 5 years? pc has had 2 winning season in the past 5 years with an average rpi of 127, zero NCAA wins and zero NIT wins. Over that same time, URI, even with its abysmal 7 win season last year has an average RPI of 107 with 4 winning seasons and 4 NIT wins. UMass has an average RPI of 120 with 7 NIT wins.
St Joes has an average RPI of 113 over the past 5 years and made the NCAA tournament in 2008. Sorry, but all of those teams have been better than pc over the past 5 years. Not even looking up the other teams b/c they are the bottom feeders of the A10 even though St Bonaventure at least made the NCAA tournament last year. So if you want to say over the past 5 years pc has been better than the bottom feeders of the A10, then I'd have to agree with you. Projecting how a Big East team like pc would do in the A10 is pointless because there is no statistical argument you can make. pc playing in the A10 means they would be playing with A10 level players... I would sure hope they could finish in the middle of the A10 playing with Big East level players.

Unread post by **ATPTourFan** » 11 years ago

Thank you, Shinze, for taking care of that ridiculously false statement for us.

rjsuperfly66 · Unread post by **rjsuperfly66** » 11 years ago

He's actually proving my point ... You can't look at W/L, it's not a fair comparison.

What has been the Big East Conference RPI since 2005 ...

2, 2, 1, 2, 4, 5, 5, 2

And the A-10?

6, 7, 9, 7, 8, 7, 10, 11

15 wins in the Big East is not the same as 15 wins in the A-10. If you take a PC or St. John's out of the Big East, they probably go to at least 4 NIT's and who knows how many wins they get there. It's stupid to compare wins or tournament appearances in that regard.

Go look at Ken Pomeroy ... Go look at Jeff Sagarin ... Go look at anybody who measures the strength of a team. The RPI is a dying stat because all it measures is SOS and where you won, so thank you for measuring out the average RPI for me, but I would prefer Sagarin since I already did Pomeroy. I like stats that mean something, and that is where you will usually find how strong a team has been YTD, and most basketball heads acknowledge that.

Here's KenPom with those guys over the past 5 seasons (as of a few days ago)... Those are his year-to-year ratings of the teams, not mine.

Providence 72 124 96 88 80
St. John's 93 152 42 67 116
LaSalle 65 64 172 162 109
St. Joseph 50 68 183 175 100
Duquesne 164 128 61 148 86
St. Bonaventure 105 52 152 135 193
UMASS 102 72 195 163 132
URI 216 202 120 66 71
GW 136 171 162 116 185
DePaul 103 144 202 172 198
Fordham 246 273 292 307 317

Unread post by **SGreenwell** » 11 years ago

I don't think it's a stretch to say that PC has been better than most of the middle of the road A-10 programs the past couple years, but then you get into the whole "chicken and egg" argument. If PC wasn't in the Big East, do they still manage to recruit Marshon Brooks and Greedy Peterson and other guys that would dominate the Atlantic 10? If they don't have those players, are they still a premier program in a lower conference?

rjsuperfly66 · Unread post by **rjsuperfly66** » 11 years ago

SGreenwell wrote:I don't think it's a stretch to say that PC has been better than most of the middle of the road A-10 programs the past couple years, but then you get into the whole "chicken and egg" argument. If PC wasn't in the Big East, do they still manage to recruit Marshon Brooks and Greedy Peterson and other guys that would dominate the Atlantic 10? If they don't have those players, are they still a premier program in a lower conference?

Probably not - Join the line of crappy coaches who couldn't sell themselves and only the conference.

My only point is to differ from the people who can't see why a team would want to join the C7. PC will probably get a similar type of recruit that they would before (Thanks to Ed Cooley), just like St. John's would with Lavin. Those are improving programs who have not been as bad the past five years as people would like to think. They have definitely struggled from a W/L perspective, no denying that, but if at the end of every year you matched them up with the opposite conference, they would have faired pretty well.

If someone is going to say "Well PC sucked," personally I think it's fair game to use these strength metrics to see how much they sucked in comparison to the other conference. I personally think whatever conference is put in place will get triple to quadruple the money, and will probably be consistently between 4-6 when it comes to strength of conference. The A-10 had their shot, and the best $$ they got these teams was $350,000, part of it the markets, part of it the dead weight at the bottom.

Brutus · Unread post by **Brutus** » 11 years ago

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.co ... l-schools/

RF1 · Unread post by **RF1** » 11 years ago

rjsuperfly66 wrote:He's actually proving my point ... You can't look at W/L, it's not a fair comparison.

What has been the Big East Conference RPI since 2005 ...

2, 2, 1, 2, 4, 5, 5, 2

And the A-10?

6, 7, 9, 7, 8, 7, 10, 11

15 wins in the Big East is not the same as 15 wins in the A-10. If you take a PC or St. John's out of the Big East, they probably go to at least 4 NIT's and who knows how many wins they get there. It's stupid to compare wins or tournament appearances in that regard.

Go look at Ken Pomeroy ... Go look at Jeff Sagarin ... Go look at anybody who measures the strength of a team. The RPI is a dying stat because all it measures is SOS and where you won, so thank you for measuring out the average RPI for me, but I would prefer Sagarin since I already did Pomeroy. I like stats that mean something, and that is where you will usually find how strong a team has been YTD, and most basketball heads acknowledge that.

Here's KenPom with those guys over the past 5 seasons (as of a few days ago)... Those are his year-to-year ratings of the teams, not mine.

Providence 72 124 96 88 80
St. John's 93 152 42 67 116
LaSalle 65 64 172 162 109
St. Joseph 50 68 183 175 100
Duquesne 164 128 61 148 86
St. Bonaventure 105 52 152 135 193
UMASS 102 72 195 163 132
URI 216 202 120 66 71
GW 136 171 162 116 185
DePaul 103 144 202 172 198
Fordham 246 273 292 307 317

Are you referring to the KENPOM and Sagarin numbers the NCAA uses? Oh. That's right, they don't use either.

Let's also discuss OOC record implications. How many of the A-10 schools you cite played nearly all their OOC games at home as the Big East schools did?

rjsuperfly66 · Unread post by **rjsuperfly66** » 11 years ago

The RPI does not indicate the strength of a team. All it looks at is the RPI of the opponents RPI, and where you played them. Good bump for winning on the road, bad bump for losing at home.

Ken Pomeroy is more than that, and that is why it is widely popular and acknowledged by anyone who knows anything about basketball, and it's why slowly it has been taking over in the Selection Board Room and the RPI has slowly been phased out.

The RPI stood alone for so long that people forgot how poor of a metric it truly was. Does anyone think Stephen F. Austin is the #12 team in the country? Or Illinois-Chicago #27? Or Bucknell #29? Or 2-3 Northwestern St #35? Or 4-4 Pacific #46? Or 2-5 USCB #49?

The RPI is a busted stat.

As for the OOC, the A-10 teams have to play more games on the road against better teams. Why? Because when Big East season comes around this year, a team like Providence will have to face Louisville, Syracuse twice, Georgetown, Pittsburgh, etc. All of these teams are better than anything in the A-10, and the Big East top-to-bottom is stronger. So why should a team like PC go and play more than 5 games away from home OOC? If URI and BC are back to their mid-2000s self, and PC is semi-healthy when they play UMASS (they would have then played NC St and Tenn instead of Penn St. and UNC-Asheville), their schedule goes from pretty bad to very tough. It's all the way the ball breaks.

Trust me, PC fans have argued the same thing at times "Go battle tough teams, more fun OOC, etc."

seanmc94 · Unread post by **seanmc94** » 11 years ago

Neither Marshon Brooks or Greedy Petersen were highly recruited. Neither were Kadeem Batts or Brice Cotton. PC has survived by catching breaks with diamonds in the rough(see Ryan Gomes)
That's why we are so fired up; EC is finally bringing in top tier talent

Shinze88 · Unread post by **Shinze88** » 11 years ago

What are you trying to establish here? Pomeroy, RPI, Sagarin -- you can find numbers to support any argument you want to make. Since pc and URI's last deep runs in the ncaa tournament (16 years ago) both programs have been irrelevant, its that simple. The difference is that pc's had the backing of the Big East Conference to sell itself to recruits and its made zero difference in the results. pc is a Big East school so I look at how they have performed relative to other Big East schools and they have been the least successful of any of the C7 schools. Even lowly DePaul has managed to win a few NIT games the past 5 years. pc has never been able to consistently compete in the Big East conference -- period. Again, projecting how pc would do outside the Big East is pointless, saying pc's 15 wins in the BE is not like 15 wins in the A10, or take pc or st johns out of the Big East and they'd have more NIT wins goes against any point you are trying to make. I judge pc based on being a Big East school, recruiting and competing against other Big East school and how they have done relative to the other Big East schools.
In the 30+ year history of the Big East, pc has done very little for the conference. Only 12 years with a .500 or better record, only 2 years where they win ncaa tournament games, 213-327 overall Big East record.. its not a pretty picture. The irony is pc would have probably have experienced much more success had they competed in the A10 the past 30 years, a conference where the road to the ncaa is much easier. So keep on comparing pc to other A10 schools if that is what you need to do.

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