Game #14: @ University of Richmond - InGame!

[rodfromcranston]

So, Ace, why do the same players knock in 100 runs, on different teams?
I also think zone rating are a fraud.
I get stats being an addendum to scouting. I look at them too. Some
are very enlightening, like situational hitting.
I just don't get them as a sole barometer of all things.
I think the stat geeks ranking on the AL MVP voters, because they didn't discount the first triple crown since 1968.
was ridiculous. It was, "We are all knowing, because of out stats, and you people who voted are neanderthals!"
Talk about condescension.

[Gonebarongone]

RBI isn't a terrible stat. Just there are better ones out there. In 2002, Lance Berkman, Sean Greene, and Pat Burrell had more RBI than Barry Bonds. It is a context dependent stat. Some guys have Ricky Henderson hitting in front of them. Some have Jose Offerman. OPS+ is a great place to start. WAR is a great place to start. Miguel Cabrera had an unbelievable year but Mike Trout had an historic year. Both provided similar offensive value but Trout did it playing elite defense at a premium defensive position. If you just look at on base % and slugging % it is pretty close. Trout got on base more by a bit. Cabrera had a better slugging %. In that vacuum, Cabrera probably edges Trout. But, Trout stole 50 bases, was a better base runner, and played CF.

[rodfromcranston]

In 2002, Bonds had an insane .550 OBP and was walked 198 times.
He also hit .370. He didn't have the opportunity to knock in more than 112 runs, because of an equally insane 68 intentional walks.
I like OPS. WAR is too subjective. They had Ben Zobrist as a higher WAR than Albert Pujols one year.
Just makes people shake their heads, sometimes.
So, then, no IB or DH could ever win an MVP over a CF or SS, by those standards?
The stolen bases are the wildcard that makes Ryan Braun, Matt Kemp and Trout better than just sluggers. They are all plus fielders.
What put Cabrera ahead in my mind were his unworldly September stretch run stats, which dwarfed Trouts.

[Gonebarongone]

In 2002, Bonds had an insane .550 OBP and was walked 198 times.
He also hit .370. He didn't have the opportunity to knock in more than 112 runs, because of an equally insane 68 intentional walks.
I like OPS. WAR is too subjective. They had Ben Zobrist as a higher WAR than Albert Pujols one year.
Just makes people shake their heads, sometimes.
So, then, no IB or DH could ever win an MVP over a CF or SS, by those standards?
The stolen bases are the wildcard that makes Ryan Braun, Matt Kemp and Trout better than just sluggers. They are all plus fielders.
What put Cabrera ahead in my mind were his unworldly September stretch run stats, which dwarfed Trouts.

Yeah. WAR can be wonky because defense is so hard to give a true value to but if you look at the last ten year of WAR, guys like Zobrist are outliers. The last five years cumulative leaders in WAR are two OF Holliday, Braun), a catcher (Mauer) two 2B (pedroia, utley), two 1B (pujols, votto), a 3B (Longoria) and Cabrera who has played multiple spots. So, a pretty good representation of value across the diamond. I think WAR should be the beginning of a discussion, not the end. OPS+ is good because it factors in park advantages/disadvantages and sets it off a baseline (100). Another good conversation starter.
It's too bad the conversation nowadays is about PEDs and not the good old fashioned HOF arguments. Tim Raines and a bunch of others should have gotten in yesterday.

[rodfromcranston]

What bothered me is guys who are "rumored" to have taken PEDs not getting in.
How do you not elect a Mike Piazza, who was the best hitting catcher in MLB history?
The BBWA is playing judge and jury to all these players.
So, they've decided to hold their noses and not put anyone in.
Raines gets hurt because he played mostly in Montreal, out of the national spotlight.
Now with HGH, we'll hear even more of this in years to come.
There's no doubt players used PEDs. But some were still, clearly better than others in
their time.
Yes, I'll take those WAR leaders any day. Longoria and Utley seem to have a problem staying on the field, but are great when healthy.
Same with Mauer.
Just think, Theo could have signed Matt Holliday after the 2009 season for about 5 million a year less than he paid Carl Crawford the following year! Holliday would have been a perfect fit in Fenway, but John Lackey came first in Theo's mind. Ugh!

[Gonebarongone]

What bothered me is guys who are "rumored" to have taken PEDs not getting in.
How do you not elect a Mike Piazza, who was the best hitting catcher in MLB history?
The BBWA is playing judge and jury to all these players.
So, they've decided to hold their noses and not put anyone in.
Raines gets hurt because he played mostly in Montreal, out of the national spotlight.
Now with HGH, we'll hear even more of this in years to come.
There's no doubt players used PEDs. But some were still, clearly better than others in
their time.
Yes, I'll take those WAR leaders any day. Longoria and Utley seem to have a problem staying on the field, but are great when healthy.
Same with Mauer.
Just think, Theo could have signed Matt Holliday after the 2009 season for about 5 million a year less than he paid Carl Crawford the following year! Holliday would have been a perfect fit in Fenway, but John Lackey came first in Theo's mind. Ugh!

I hated the John Lackey signing at the time. His velocity was decreasing, which is never a good sign. He was over 30. Multi year deals to pitchers over the 30 in their decline years never work. I will admit that I loved the Crawford signing. I figured the final year or two might be years you would have to swallow but that is the price you pay in free agency. I thought the Sox would get five years of elite OF play, elite speed, a little pop, and an .850 OPS. I loved it because he always was flying around the bases against the Sox. While I am at it, I loved the AGonz trade and extention.

[Ramulous]

WAR......huh.....what is it good for....absolutely nothing !!!

[ace]

In 2002, Bonds had an insane .550 OBP and was walked 198 times.
He also hit .370. He didn't have the opportunity to knock in more than 112 runs, because of an equally insane 68 intentional walks.

Right, which is a good example of why counting stats tell a less than complete story. RBI's aren't meaningless, they're just incomplete. I wasn't that upset about Cabrera winning the MVP- because he's a tremendous player- but it's not the triple crown numbers that meant the most. As a fan, I did want him to win the triple crown but only because it's an unusual occurrence not because those are the most important numbers. And I'm a Phillies fan, so I can barely talk about Utley and his problematic knees.

[rodfromcranston]

Utley was the best in the game, until he started to have problems.
I loved watching those Philly teams.
Howard is a mess, Utley is slowed down, Victorino is gone. What happened to Rollins?
His production died after his MVP season.
The pitching is still there, if they can keep position players healthy.
Don't get why they traded Pence.

[UCH21377]

Piazza played in an era where all offensive stats were overblown, and he was a defensive liability in a position where a premium is placed on defense. He was not close to Bench as an overall baseball player. He deserves the HOF but I can understand making him wait a year or two.

[rodfromcranston]

15 time All Star, 12 time Silver slugger, MVP, 7 time top ten in MVP voting, 3 times hit over .340 once .362. .922 career OPS.
Awesome hitting stats, good enough of a catcher to take a staff to the World Series and two NLCS, and three NLDS.
No Johnny Bench on defense, but he buries Bench on offense. I never saw a guy with the opposite field power that
Piazza had.

[reef]

Say it aint so Barroid and Rocket Roger !!!!

[SmartyBarrett]

I also think zone rating are a fraud.

Zone rating is definitely a flawed stat, and the people that invented ZR will tell you as much. Defense is incredibly hard to measure in baseball; it's likely better than fielding percentage though. Errors are largely based on the home park's official scorer, who may or may not be objective. At least ZR is concretely defined. Doesn't take into account defensive positioning, etc. Don't know if defense in baseball will ever be able to be measured to everyone's liking. But I digress...

[SmartyBarrett]

WAR......huh.....what is it good for....absolutely nothing !!!

Good god.