Wichita State Moves to the AAC

[RF1]

There is the Power-5 and everybody else. Anyone that thinks differently is being delusional.

[steviep123]

Is he though? They've only lost 2 coaches involuntarily since inception, and 1 of those guys didn't even coach a game. They haven't had guys chasing pay checks, guys like Mack and even Holtmann mentioned every year with openings but never touch them. Cooley has also been mentioned to several openings, it's never more than that. Wright you don't even hear his name anymore. McDermott? Crickets. Most of these guys are right around $2+ million to begin with (or have deals in place to get them there), do you think Georgia Tech is going to pay their coach $4-6 million? In fact, if you look at NCAA Tournament teams this season, only 9 teams are paying coaches over $3 million annually.

Also when it comes to resources, I'd say the BE schools have risen to the occasion. Many have or are building practice facilities. They are flying charter with more frequency. They are spending money. They will never beat Kentucky or Duke, but they are adding the amenities (for the most part) to keep them in line with many middling P5 schools. Of course P5 schools are getting the money, B10 teams get something like $50 million from TV contracts to the Big East's $4. But in the BE, you know the $4 is going to basketball. In the Big10, many of those schools are probably putting most or all into the football program.

I agree with most of this, but it may be a matter of time with guys like Holtmann, Mack, and McDermott. They've only been at their respective schools for a few years. Mack took over for Miller in 2009 after Miller went to Arizona, Holtmann for Stevens 4 or 5 years ago, and I think this is McDermott's 5th or 6th year after taking over for Altmann. Granted, the Big East seems pretty stable and with Fox Sports money to help, but it really all depends if these guys want to go to the P5's when they come calling. Personally, I think it's better for the NCAA in general if they stay where they are. The more non P5 conferences that retain their coaches, the better.

rj, which school only lost 2 coaches involuntarily? I know it's not Xavier. They've gone through a number of coaches over the years and haven't missed a beat...one of them to Providence (old friend Pete Gillan).

Sorry, that statement was more about the NBE, since 2014.
Butler lost Stevens to the NBA, and Marquette lost Buzz to V-Tech.
Obviously, plenty of other defections going back several years.
PC used to be a stepping stone job, etc.
These schools figured out there is a money component, and have stepped up.

I think the problem with "P5" is that it's purely a football term.
Sure, it means more money (through TV), but it's a bowl game designation.
P5 teams get preferred bowl games, because there are no other competitive conferences.
But it doesn't quite translate to basketball because there are no true basketball benefits to being P5.
You would think more money, but that's not always the case.
Many P5 schools don't have "basketball only" practice facilities.
They also don't always pay coaches more.
Conferences are often more competitive, but so is the Big East, for example.
Again, simply Big East conference KenPom, 14-17:
5-2-3-3.

Thanks for clarifying. I honestly think the best thing that happened to the Big East (since it's inception) is the creation of the new Big East. All the football schools and expansion they were doing until then were really killing them. Sure they were a great basketball league with 16 teams and many of them strong, but they proved they could split from the football powers and still be strong. But it does suck that they (again) had to steal from the Atlantic 10 to do it. That's my biggest problem with BE fans calling the A10 weak. If the A10 is so historically weak, then why does the Big East keep stealing our teams in order to help them continue to succeed?

With that, I think a good thing for the A10 to put into place is that in addition to the exit fees and forfeitures of NCAA tournament money, if a team leaves the A10, then that team needs to schedule a home and home with each remaining A10 member of the course of the next 20 years (or whatever number of years it would take to cycle through the conference). Or instead of this, then the conference guilty of stealing a team needs to agree to a that conference vs. the A10 challenge for at least a couple of years for each team stolen. For example, if the Big East steals Dayton, then there needs to be a Big East/A10 challenge for two seasons. If they were to steal Dayton and St. Louis, then four seasons.

Some might think it's a pipe dream, but I'm thinking it as a proactive way to lesson the impact on RPI/strength of schedule for a while if a team gets stolen.

[RhowdyRam02]

With that, I think a good thing for the A10 to put into place is that in addition to the exit fees and forfeitures of NCAA tournament money, if a team leaves the A10, then that team needs to schedule a home and home with each remaining A10 member of the course of the next 20 years (or whatever number of years it would take to cycle through the conference). Or instead of this, then the conference guilty of stealing a team needs to agree to a that conference vs. the A10 challenge for at least a couple of years for each team stolen. For example, if the Big East steals Dayton, then there needs to be a Big East/A10 challenge for two seasons. If they were to steal Dayton and St. Louis, then four seasons.

Some might think it's a pipe dream, but I'm thinking it as a proactive way to lesson the impact on RPI/strength of schedule for a while if a team gets stolen.

Would that even be enforceable? I know it's done with individual teams, but could you compel an entire conference in that way?

[steviep123]

With that, I think a good thing for the A10 to put into place is that in addition to the exit fees and forfeitures of NCAA tournament money, if a team leaves the A10, then that team needs to schedule a home and home with each remaining A10 member of the course of the next 20 years (or whatever number of years it would take to cycle through the conference). Or instead of this, then the conference guilty of stealing a team needs to agree to a that conference vs. the A10 challenge for at least a couple of years for each team stolen. For example, if the Big East steals Dayton, then there needs to be a Big East/A10 challenge for two seasons. If they were to steal Dayton and St. Louis, then four seasons.

Some might think it's a pipe dream, but I'm thinking it as a proactive way to lesson the impact on RPI/strength of schedule for a while if a team gets stolen.

Would that even be enforceable? I know it's done with individual teams, but could you compel an entire conference in that way?

If schools agree to it via a contract, then yes, why not? VCU is starting a home and home with Texas based on Shaka Smart's contract with VCU and him going to Texas. It would be along those lines.

[rjsuperfly66]

There is the Power-5 and everybody else. Anyone that thinks differently is being delusional.

From a monetary standpoint, sure.
If they are ranking basketball conferences, it really doesn't matter.
If it did, every P5 school would be offering every coach $5+ million, have state of the art practice facilities, hotels for team members on campus, chartered flights everywhere, etc.
Money doesn't matter with basketball conference perception, unless you are actually allocating it towards basketball.
That's why there is a difference between Kentucky and Kansas, who actually allocate money towards the basketball program, and a school like Clemson, who has a state of the art football facility that the basketball team can also use to work out in when the football team isn't there.

[Ramulous]

RJ

Are you confident that those schools who don't finance basketball to the level of their conference brethren will do so forever?

[bostonwhaler]

RJ

Are you confident that those schools who don't finance basketball to the level of their conference brethren will do so forever?

This is all doom and gloom. If you're not in a football power conference, you have no chance in basketball. Maybe we should all start rooting for BC since all other schools have no hope.

[rambone 78]

Villanova and Gonzaga would like a word with you......ha ha

[ramster]

Rambone,
I think Bostonwhaler was being facetious......

We keep hearing about the P5 Schools and the Big East and everyone else is doomed.
- The Big East is going to take Dayton and VCU (yet they have stayed at 10 teams for a long time now with no signs of expanding)
- The AAC is going to take Dayton and VCU
- The A10 is only going to get 1 team or at most 2 teams in the dance this year - how many times did we hear that this season?
- The P5 and Big East have tons and tons of money from TV and growing - the Mid Majors don't
- The P5 and Big East all have glamorous Practice facilities or at least have plans for them
- The ACC should get 10-12 teams and the Big East should get 7-8 teams in the NCAA Tournament every year because they are so vastly superior
- Mid Majors, including the A10 and URI have no hope is what seems to be the often insinuated message

URI is at the fork in the road with only 2 choices in the long run:

[rjsuperfly66]

RJ

Are you confident that those schools who don't finance basketball to the level of their conference brethren will do so forever?

Can you clarify for me?
Schools where basketball is an afterthought to football will never put in the resources in necessary to completely demolish non-P5 schools who put competitive resources into their basketball program.
Alabama for instance, they make a silly amount of money, but the money is mostly reinvested back into the football program.
If they used only a small-percentage of those funds towards basketball, they could build beautiful facilities, etc.
The Alabama basketball practice facility was created in a 2011 renovation that cost $2 million ... $2 million.
The average practice facility today is in the $30-$40 million range.
But they facelift their existing football facility 2 years later for $9 million.
For that school and their fans, do you really think they are going to suddenly change and put more money into basketball, or if they get more money just invest into more and more football-centric resources?
And I think that is the reality of these heavy football-centric schools.

[bostonwhaler]

Yes, the sarcasm was lost in translation. With ramulous' pov, why even be a rhody fan?

[Ramulous]

So Alabama forever will not put the same money into basketball that Kentucky does? Is that what you believe? Clemson will never invest in basketball the amounts put in by Duke and North Carolina? How do you know they never will?

My pov is realistic....we are a midmajor.....no one roots harder for Rhody and midmajors than I do....with the exception of the best midmajor conference, the big east....I won't root for them...

[rjsuperfly66]

So Alabama forever will not put the same money into basketball that Kentucky does? Is that what you believe? Clemson will never invest in basketball the amounts put in by Duke and North Carolina? How do you know they never will?

Why wouldn't I believe that? For nearly 100 years, Alabama has put almost all of their resources into football. They are down in a huge football area with a large, passionate fan base, many of whom would probably kill before watching a basketball game. Vice versa with Kentucky and basketball, do I think a school that for 100 years has placed a bigger emphasis on basketball will suddenly take resources from basketball and use some of those for football? Anything is possible, but I'm not expecting it anytime soon. As more money comes into these conferences, I'd be shocked to see a ratio change of football/basketball spending. More money just means more resources to the sport of emphasis. All you have to do is look at coaching salaries and facilities spending. With the Big 10 schools each making $50 million a year, how come they still have basketball coaches making less than $2 million per season? How comes Dan Hurley is almost making as much money as Chris Collins? Or Ed Cooley is making more money than Greg Gard or Rick Pitino Jr.? etc.

[UCH21377]

Rambone,
I think Bostonwhaler was being facetious......

We keep hearing about the P5 Schools and the Big East and everyone else is doomed.
- The Big East is going to take Dayton and VCU (yet they have stayed at 10 teams for a long time now with no signs of expanding)
- The AAC is going to take Dayton and VCU
- The A10 is only going to get 1 team or at most 2 teams in the dance this year - how many times did we hear that this season?
- The P5 and Big East have tons and tons of money from TV and growing - the Mid Majors don't
- The P5 and Big East all have glamorous Practice facilities or at least have plans for them
- The ACC should get 10-12 teams and the Big East should get 7-8 teams in the NCAA Tournament every year because they are so vastly superior
- Mid Majors, including the A10 and URI have no hope is what seems to be the often insinuated message

URI is at the fork in the road with only 2 choices in the long run:

gloom-doom-630x286.jpg

Ramster, I get what your saying, but IMO, the A10 cannot just rest on their laurels here, fat, dumb, and happy. The AAC made a move to strengthen their basketball league. The A10 has not. Is that OK? Time will tell I guess.

[ramster]

Rambone,
I think Bostonwhaler was being facetious......

We keep hearing about the P5 Schools and the Big East and everyone else is doomed.
- The Big East is going to take Dayton and VCU (yet they have stayed at 10 teams for a long time now with no signs of expanding)
- The AAC is going to take Dayton and VCU
- The A10 is only going to get 1 team or at most 2 teams in the dance this year - how many times did we hear that this season?
- The P5 and Big East have tons and tons of money from TV and growing - the Mid Majors don't
- The P5 and Big East all have glamorous Practice facilities or at least have plans for them
- The ACC should get 10-12 teams and the Big East should get 7-8 teams in the NCAA Tournament every year because they are so vastly superior
- Mid Majors, including the A10 and URI have no hope is what seems to be the often insinuated message

URI is at the fork in the road with only 2 choices in the long run:

gloom-doom-630x286.jpg

Ramster, I get what your saying, but IMO, the A10 cannot just rest on their laurels here, fat, dumb, and happy. The AAC made a move to strengthen their basketball league. The A10 has not. Is that OK? Time will tell I guess.

UCH,
I would not want what I said to be construed as I am fat, dumb and happy with the Atlantic 10. I just hear so much negativity about the league with the stuff about we will only get 1 or 2 bids. I never doubted we would get 3. You will never hear Big East or ACC Coaches, Broadcasters, Fans of teams, etc saying their league is having a down year. They think they are so superior to all other leagues that 12 of 15 in the ACC and 8 of 10 in the BE should be invited to the dance, every year. Most of this conversation here is about the doom and gloom of the mid majors - except for the Big East. All the talk of the ACC and the Big East getting these bids and neither league did very well in the dance overall - but you will never hear anything about that.

No way am I satisfied. I would not take Lane. I think I might take Toppin but what I really like is holding out for a Top 50 ESPN type player like Iverson from Memphis or Robinson from Indiana. We are in an even better position to attract someone like that now that we have gone to the NCAA. Why settle? Keep 1 of 13 Scholarships open so you can jump at the opportunity if it presents itself.

Also I am all for the Practice Facility - $20 million, $30 million? Whatever it takes URI should do it. I know everyone does not agree, in fact the majority seem against it, but to me if UCONN, UMASS and PC have these or they are in process then URI has to do it. We have to keep ourselves in that level so that one day if there is a reorganization such as the BE and AAC a few years ago, that URI is in the discussion with teams like Dayton, VCU, UCONN, PC, etc. We have to do it. Of course URI can choose not to, but Hurley, I am sure, is pushing for this. He wants the best for his players, he wants the whirlpool stuff like they have at these Practice facilities in big ways. We have to be ready for when the unexpected happens and leagues go crazy with changes - its only a matter of time.
,
As for Wichita State, they never considered the A10. The geography of teams in the AAC is attractive for them - SMU, Tulane, Houston, Tulsa, Memphis....It's a good move for the AAC, but not sure what we could or should do at this point.

[Bigsnoop]

When John Marinatto negotiated the last Big East contract with ESPN (which was rejected), the football teams were going to get around $11 million per team, while the non-football teams were going to get just under $2 million each. Pitt and Georgetown led the revolt against the contract. This gives you an idea how ESPN views the disparity between football and basketball, which is amazing considering the Big East (possibly along with the ACC) probably had the closest perceived value between football and basketball.

I'm sure that most of the football conferences make sure that the vast majority of the television revenue goes back to football.

Also in the AAC case, ESPN is not renegotiating their contact due to the inclusion of Wichita State, which means the schools will actually be getting slightly less TV revenue per team now, which will be overcome with NCAA tournament credits. This is only possible because the AAC gets so little money in their TV contact ($2 million per team for football and basketball. Wichita State is projected to get between $300,000 and $400,000 for basketball only).

[rambone 78]

Stands to reason why schools like UConn and Cincy want out of the AAC....high travel costs combined with very little TV money compared to even the BB only BE.....

Their athletic depts. are bleeding money in spite of their facilities and donor bases....losing huge money on football.

The AAC is/was a thrown together [and spread out] league comprised of bigger schools that had nowhere else to go.

UMass can't afford to join that league for football......

[rambone 78]

bostonwhaler and ramster....I knew that.....the "ha ha" at the end was the giveaway.

[RhowdyRam02]

Stands to reason why schools like UConn and Cincy want out of the AAC....high travel costs combined with very little TV money compared to even the BB only BE.....

Their athletic depts. are bleeding money in spite of their facilities and donor bases....losing huge money on football.

The AAC is/was a thrown together [and spread out] league comprised of bigger schools that had nowhere else to go.

UMass can't afford to join that league for football......

The problem for UMass right now is they can't afford the facilities to join the AAC but they can't afford to continue being an independent in FBS football either. If they're permanently committed to FBS football they might have been better off joining the MAC in all sports even though it would have sucked for their other sports and for us.

[rhodylaw]

The proper move for Umass is to wait it out until the AAC dies.

If I was Uconn I would be working hard to create a new league that focuses on basketball first. The AAC was built for football and it will kill Uconn.

[860_rhody]

The proper move for Umass is to wait it out until the AAC dies.

If I was Uconn I would be working hard to create a new league that focuses on basketball first. The AAC was built for football and it will kill Uconn.

In what situation would the AAC die?

[rjsuperfly66]

The proper move for Umass is to wait it out until the AAC dies.

If I was Uconn I would be working hard to create a new league that focuses on basketball first. The AAC was built for football and it will kill Uconn.

In what situation would the AAC die?

If there is massive conference expansion,I could see the AAC being destroyed.
Picture the doomsday 4 16-team conference scenario that effectively takes the best teams from one of the P5's (probably the Big 12) and the AAC, leaving the scraps to combine into one conference (which would probably be named the Big 12).
Between the P12, B10, ACC, and SEC, I believe there are 9 open spots.
I used to think the decimated P5 conference would be the ACC, but I believe changes to their rights agreement have all but eliminated that possibility.

[UCH21377]

The above is the reason why I am surprised the B12 hasn't expanded to gobble up some of the AAC and/or MW teams, to help defend against the potential expansion of the other 4 conferences.

[rambone 78]

There aren't many [or any] AAC teams that the other 4 want.......there was talk about the B12 adding a couple, but they decided to stay put for now.

[EGram]

Interesting list of US schools by basketball budget someone posted in another thread.

. http://csnbbs.com/thread-813807-post-14 ... id14226101

Lets compare some of the a10 bottom dwellers co the schools frequently brought up as replacements.

124) Siena College 3,083,128
127) Belmont University 2,951,040
143) Valparaiso University 2,666,213
149) Hofstra University 2,545,499
168) Iona College 2,308,176



100) Fordham University 4,126,729
OK, so maybe this list is wrong. Or Fordham just burns a couple mil every year and declares it as part of the BBall budget.

128) La Salle University 2,946,555
Over two decades in the A10 and La Salle still spends about as much as a MAAC school says something IMO. A few a10 schools are below them, schools like Davidson, SBU, and GW are right behind them spending wise

96) Duquesne University 4,229,922
Again the whole Athletic department needs to be shown the door at schools like Duquense and Fordham if they are actually spending this much money for so little result.