Duquesne and Fordham

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CT Rhody
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Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by CT Rhody »

With rumors placing Witchita State in the AAC soon, the A-10 has to make a move if it wants to continue its High Major argument. I don't see a more obvious move than to ask Duquesne and Fordham to drop down to the Patriot or another league and have the A-10 move to 12 teams. Those two programs have proven to be RPI anchors year after year after year. Many might shirk at the idea of asking two members to leave but remember that this conference stresses and highlights at every turn that it is a basketball conference first and foremost. If this is true, than it's time to make this happen.

Take these two teams out of our conference RPI and we are right up there with all the BCS level conferences.
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by reef »

Agree like to see them out and replaced by better hoop schools. Wichita St would have been nice
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CT Rhody
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by CT Rhody »

We wouldn't even have to replace them right away, we could wait to make the right decision at some point in the future if the league wanted to get back up to 14.

I think 12 or even 10 works fine as long as their isn't a Fordham or DePaul in the mix.
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UCH21377
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by UCH21377 »

IMO they think they have to keep the league larger to combat the inevitable poaching coming someday. St L, Dayton, Richmond, UMass, maybe even VCU at some point would be considered. If the Amercian is chasing Basketball only members things could get very interesting.
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by RF1 »

Given our program has not made the NCAA since 1999, I don't think Rhody fans have a right to be calling for other under performing members to be booted out of the league.
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by hrstrat57 »

RF1 wrote:Given our program has not made the NCAA since 1999, I don't think Rhody fans have a right to be calling for other under performing members to be booted out of the league.
Yep
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by RhowdyRam02 »

RF1 wrote:Given our program has not made the NCAA since 1999, I don't think Rhody fans have a right to be calling for other under performing members to be booted out of the league.
You can argue our thought process, but with the Ryan Center you can't argue our commitment to being good. What have Fordham and Duquesne ever done to show they're committed to getting better?
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CT Rhody
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by CT Rhody »

Agreed, it's not only recent level of success that should be considered. A University's financial commitment to the program and facilities plays a big part in it. When the rumors were swirling about the Catholic seven joining the A-10, one of the biggest reasons they didn't were because of some of the bottom feeders and their lack of commitment and facilities. If you want to be a high major conference, then you have to act like one.
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by Rhody15 »

The A10 will never be a "high major" conference, no matter what people say or want on this board. It just isn't going to happen.
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by PeterRamTime »

Rhody15 wrote:The A10 will never be a "high major" conference, no matter what people say or want on this board. It just isn't going to happen.
Well I'd say we were a high major conference that year Butler was in the A-10 and six teams got in.
I'd say the A-10 was a high major conference for one season... :p
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by reef »

A10 usually comes somewhere in the 7-10 range this year it may be closer to 10
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by RF1 »

The A-10 is unfortunately trending downward since realignment. It did well that first year but signs since then are not encouraging. SBU not making the tournament with such a good RPI last year shows how difficult it is to make the tournament from the league. The poor seeding of the league teams that have made the tournament in recent years with Dayton in a play in game are other warning signs. It looks like it may hit rock bottom this year with regards to the NCAA Tournament. I would guess the league may send its lowest number of teams to the NCAA in a long time.

This is not good for URI. Rhody has not been able to leverage being in a stronger league during the last 17 years. What then happens with URI's quest for an NCAA bid in a weaker conference? If the downward trend of the league continues, will it be worth being a member in the future?
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by RhowdyRam02 »

What other league would you have us join?
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rambone 78
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by rambone 78 »

The Big East....will never happen though.

Even if we were to actually Dance a couple times.......
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by RhowdyRam02 »

Well yeah, sure that would be great. Like you said it will never happen and RF1 is wondering if being a member in the A10 will be worth it in the future. I'm trying to figure out what he thinks our options are.
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rambone 78
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by rambone 78 »

Yeah RR2 we aren't going anywhere........I also doubt the A10 will cut members loose......12 teams would make more sense though.

The BE looks like they are happy with 10 teams for the forseeable future......
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by section(105) »

.......we are stuck with the A-10, and the A-10 is stuck with us......
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by ramster »

RF1 wrote:The A-10 is unfortunately trending downward since realignment. It did well that first year but signs since then are not encouraging. SBU not making the tournament with such a good RPI last year shows how difficult it is to make the tournament from the league. The poor seeding of the league teams that have made the tournament in recent years with Dayton in a play in game are other warning signs. It looks like it may hit rock bottom this year with regards to the NCAA Tournament. I would guess the league may send its lowest number of teams to the NCAA in a long time.

This is not good for URI. Rhody has not been able to leverage being in a stronger league during the last 17 years. What then happens with URI's quest for an NCAA bid in a weaker conference? If the downward trend of the league continues, will it be worth being a member in the future?

As best I can remember we have been the 7th Ranked conference for many years now. I don't recall us being higher than 7th but I do remember being slightly worse than 7th quite a few years ago. What evidence do you have that the ranking of the A10 Conference is trending downward since realignment? What were we before realignment and what are we now?

What conference are you preferring over the A10?

American?
Conference USA?
Colonial Athletic Association?

Just curious what you would do if you were the AD at URI today? What would you change as far as Conference Affiliation?
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bacarlson21
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by bacarlson21 »

With the exception of MAYBE Umass, I don't think you need to worry about any teams being poached from the A10. Football drives the bus, and if Umass (as silly as it sounds) ever wants to have a decent D1 football program they are going to need to move to a better situation. They can't continue on with the football team in the MAC and basketball in the A10. The most likely destination would be the AAC, but not sure the AAC would touch them unless some AAC schools start getting poached for P5 conferences.
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by RF1 »

The problem with the A-10 this season is not the dregs. They are performing as in the past. The problem with the league this season and the main reason not many conf teams will make the tourney is due to the poor performance of the supposed top teams, uri included.
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by ramster »

But you didn't answer the question
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by Rhodymob05 »

Even if we haven't made the tourny since 99', I think we have been competitive enough in this conference and have had enough quality schedules and wins to suggest teams like Duquesne and Fordham look for the exit.
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by CT Rhody »

The plus 200 RPI teams have always killed the perception of the league. Lose Duquesne and Fordham and even in a down year like this year does anybody know where the a-10 would be? It's current 7th with them so maybe somewhere between 4-6? What a perception jump that would be right there. With St Louis on the rebound, the A10 shouldn't have any plus 200 RPI teams next year if it dumped these two. The status quo shouldn't be the Norma and the conference needs to tackle their perception problems head on.
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by NYGFan_Section208 »

CT Rhody wrote:The plus 200 RPI teams have always killed the perception of the league. Lose Duquesne and Fordham and even in a down year like this year does anybody know where the a-10 would be? It's current 7th with them so maybe somewhere between 4-6? What a perception jump that would be right there. With St Louis on the rebound, the A10 shouldn't have any plus 200 RPI teams next year if it dumped these two. The status quo shouldn't be the Norma and the conference needs to tackle their perception problems head on.
Not trying to be mean or anything but...just seems like, before talking about booting other teams out...maybe win the conference...beat the teams you're supposed to beat a few times in a row. If Rhody doesn't make the tournament, it will more likely be because they LOST to those two than because those two "dragged down the perception"... Just my opinion, but on the 'list of problems facing URI hoops right now'...having those two in the conference is really (really) far down. Then again, maybe you really are a visionary and I'm just short-sighted guy looking to get through January still in the hunt...
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by CT Rhody »

I am certainly thinking long term, short term vision is for DH and Thor to worry about.
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rambone 78
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by rambone 78 »

It's kind of hard for URI to have the right to complain about those programs.....what have WE done lately to add to the A10's coffers when it comes to NCAA money?

All we've done, for 17 years and counting, is share some of the other teams' money that have actually earned it......yes we've been consistently better than some others, but still no Dance cash from us.....
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by CT Rhody »

I get all this "what have we done lately" but here is my point. The A-10 talks all the time about being the best basketball only conference in the country. Do they want to be a high-major conference or not? If URI has to move on because it doesn't have high-major aspirations than that's fine, I would have no problem with the A-10 kicking them out at that point. But that clearly isn't the case, the university is getting financial behind the program and unfortunately not every university in the A-10 is doing that so at some point the A-10 has to do what's best for the conference as a whole to compete on a more level playing field against the power 5 conferences.
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by CT Rhody »

I ran the RPI numbers with those two teams out and the league would be 6th which we can all agree is a down year. On an average A10 year, the A-10 would be battling for 4th or 5th with those 12 teams. Just the increase in perception on that alone would drive better recruits, more fan interest, better TV coverage etc.

My point in all this that the A-10 isn't far from being a legit high-major conference, a couple of tweaks and it's there which will just elevate the conference even further once it solidifies its standing.
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by ramster »

Latest Realtime RPI has the A10 moving up from #8 to #7 Rank as a Conference. Same as last year.

A10 has the 4th Highest Strength of Schedule (SOS) among all Conferences
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by ATPTourFan »

Ramster, best to use the expected RPI which will end up 8th unless the A10 wins some games they weren't supposed to this last week before conf season.

http://www.rpiforecast.com/confs/A10.html
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by ramster »

ATPTourFan wrote:Ramster, best to use the expected RPI which will end up 8th unless the A10 wins some games they weren't supposed to this last week before conf season.

http://www.rpiforecast.com/confs/A10.html

I look at that also ATP, but the A10 did just this week move back to the #7 Spot that they have been familiar with for the last several years. It is a battle with the AAC between which Conference ends up 7th or 8th. Agree the final projection is for #8.

In Strength of Schedule the A10 is ranked 4th while the AAC is ranked only 10th. I suppose that the higher overall ranking of the AAC teams individually gives the AAC the edge over the remainder of the season.

Good to see the A10 playing the 4th toughest OOC Schedule out of all 32 Conferences.
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by ramster »

With Conferences winding down their OOC Schedules the latest Realtime Expected RPI numbers reflect:

SOS OOC Schedules:
URI 19
LaSalle 22
Dayton 54
St Josephs 58
VCU 71

Expected RPI End of Season
URI 34.5
Dayton 39.7
VCU 48.2

http://www.rpiforecast.com/confs/A10.html
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rambone 78
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by rambone 78 »

Those numbers project out to a ONE bid league if we were to win the A10 tourney......otherwise two.....maybe
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by ramster »

Another interesting item from the RPI info:

A10 is 1-23 against teams ranked 1-25. URI owns the only win.
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by Rhodymob05 »

Bad year for the A10, it happens but its also good for Rhody, with a OOC like that, it may be good to have a softer schedule. I realize that it can also be bad for strength of schedule ,but if we finish with a great record and the SOS, we're looking better than we thought. A10 tourney is more winnable as well.
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by ramster »

Rhodymob05 wrote:Bad year for the A10, it happens but its also good for Rhody, with a OOC like that, it may be good to have a softer schedule. I realize that it can also be bad for strength of schedule ,but if we finish with a great record and the SOS, we're looking better than we thought. A10 tourney is more winnable as well.
Wait........are you saying the season it not yet over? :o
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rambone 78
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by rambone 78 »

It's not over until it's over.....greatest cliché of all time........eh?

Seriously, it could depend on how soft the bubble is...if we're on that bubble......fuck it would be nice to at least get there......

I think we'll know what our chances are after St. Joe and Dayton......
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by ramster »

NYGFan_Section208 wrote:
CT Rhody wrote:The plus 200 RPI teams have always killed the perception of the league. Lose Duquesne and Fordham and even in a down year like this year does anybody know where the a-10 would be? It's current 7th with them so maybe somewhere between 4-6? What a perception jump that would be right there. With St Louis on the rebound, the A10 shouldn't have any plus 200 RPI teams next year if it dumped these two. The status quo shouldn't be the Norma and the conference needs to tackle their perception problems head on.
Not trying to be mean or anything but...just seems like, before talking about booting other teams out...maybe win the conference...beat the teams you're supposed to beat a few times in a row. If Rhody doesn't make the tournament, it will more likely be because they LOST to those two than because those two "dragged down the perception"... Just my opinion, but on the 'list of problems facing URI hoops right now'...having those two in the conference is really (really) far down. Then again, maybe you really are a visionary and I'm just short-sighted guy looking to get through January still in the hunt...
Are there any Conferences that would not benefit from dropping their 2 bottom teams? BE could drop DePaul and St Johns, etc
2nd Best win by the A10 this year was probably Duquesne beating Pittsburgh, their 1st win over Pitt since 2000. (from the FWIW department)
Fordham and Duquesne give the A10 a presence in 2 major East Coast Markets - NYC and Pittsburgh. Does the A10 try to being in other teams from those Cities or just drop the 2 Markets?

Just a matter of time before UMASS departs from the A10 for a Football Conference - AAC a likely landing spot. URI would be the only New England team.

A10 is currently ranked #7 (projected year end at #8), battle for #7 is with the AAC

Of Conferences ahead of the A10, the Big 10 and the SEC both have 14 teams, the ACC has 15 teams.

Personally I like the A10 at 14 teams.


Rank / Conference / Number of Teams
1 Big East 10 teams
2 Atlantic Coast 15 teams
3 Big 12 10 teams
4 Big Ten 14 teams
5 Southeastern 14 teams
6 Pacific-12 12 teams
7 Atlantic 10 14 teams
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by ramster »

The other 3 conferences behind the A10 are:

8 American Athletic 11 teams
9 Mountain West 11 teams
10 Missouri Valley 10 teams

There are 32 total D1 Conferences.
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by section(105) »

......for me it is not so much as dropping teams as it is the potential of loosing those two markets; let's just say Duquesne and Fordham leave the A-10. 1). What teams from those markets would make sense to join the A-10? And 2). If those two markets are lost, then what two new markets make sense for the A-10?
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by ramster »

Agree, the Markets are an important factor. If no NYC and Pittsburgh then who replaces Fordham and Duquesne in those Markets, OR which Markets to we pursue instead?
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by RhowdyRam02 »

Honestly, what has the Pittsburgh market ever given the conference? And if you're as irrelevant as Fordham can you really say they give us the New York market?
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by Rhodymob05 »

What if BC dropped down to A10? I know they've been getting steam rolled by the ACC. Just a thought.
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by section(105) »

RR02, good points; recruiting areas?? Robert Morris, piitsburgh area, NEC conference, 3,000 + on campus facility.....just a thought
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by ramster »

It's simply a consideration RR2, that is all.
Every conference has a bottom 2. I have never seen a conference dump their bottom 2 teams so I think the whole point of this is moot anyway yet it comes up at least once per year.
After you dump Fordham and Duquesne there will then be a bottom 2 - there always will be obviously. URI is not that far removed from potentially being one of those bottom 2.
Just the last 2 years posters were trashing George Mason here and look how they have turned things around this year. GMU also has a signee who recently scored 56 points in Holiday Tournament game.
It really doesn't matter what anyone thinks, no way the A10 is dropping those 2 teams or any teams. More than likely the next order of business will be replacing teams such as UMASS leaving for football or the BE or other conferences expanding.
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by RhowdyRam02 »

Rhodymob05 wrote:What if BC dropped down to A10? I know they've been getting steam rolled by the ACC. Just a thought.
Is this serious?
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by Rhodymob05 »

RhowdyRam02 wrote:
Rhodymob05 wrote:What if BC dropped down to A10? I know they've been getting steam rolled by the ACC. Just a thought.
Is this serious?
lol no, but they have been a bottom dweller in that league for a decade now.
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by bacarlson21 »

RhowdyRam02 wrote:
Rhodymob05 wrote:What if BC dropped down to A10? I know they've been getting steam rolled by the ACC. Just a thought.
Is this serious?
BC is in the ACC to help their conference GPA. Doesn't matter how bad they are in basketball or football, they aren't going anywhere.
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by RF1 »

URI won't soon be invited to any conferences better than the A-10. It's lack of NCAA appearances and inability to dominate the league do not make it attractive. If any conference move were to take place, it would be to a lesser league. URI has not been able to leverage membership in a strong A-10 and get to the tourney. It is becoming an even more difficult task to get an invite from the A-10 and the league has been on a bit of a downward trend. 2013 was the last year prior to realignment and the conference was riding high. The league did exceedingly well in the 2014, the first full season after realignment with six teams in the field and very good seeds. In the two years since then, it has only sent three teams each season to the tournament and all of their seeds have been mediocre. It is highly unlikely this will improve this year give the OOC performance to date.

A-10 NCAA PARTICIPATION
YEAR | # TEAMS | RECORD | TEAMS W/SEEDS
2013 | 5 | 7–5 | #4 SLU, #5 VCU, #6 Butler, #9 Temple, #13* LaSalle,
2014 | 6 | 4–6 | #5 VCU, #5 SLU, #6 Umass, #9 GW, #10 SJU, #11 Dayton
2015 | 3 | 2–3 | #7 VCU, #10 Davidson, #11* Dayton
2016 | 3 | 2–3 | #8 SJU, #7 Dayton, #10 VCU

* denotes that team participated in A play-in game

If the A-10 slides more and URI continues to be unable to get to the tournament, is it worth it to remain? The A-10 requires much more resources than lesser leagues. Its revenues are more at this time but most of that has been coming from NCAA units which have been diminishing. The league's tv revenues are not thought to be significant and could very well decline if the league does not soon rebound. Membership in a league such as the A-10 is worth it when it has a high profile, makes it easier to get to the NCAA, and pays out large tv and NCAA revenues. If these benefits continue to lessen, is it really better than a lower cost one bid league where your program might be able to better dominate and frequently make the tournament? Just food for thought.
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Re: Duquesne and Fordham

Unread post by rambone 78 »

Dominating a lesser [read one bid] conference isn't anywhere as easy as it sounds......you are recruiting at a lower level....even if you win the conference tourney you are going to be a lower seed, likely a one and done....

The other factor is coaching.....you need a standout game coach who will make the difference in close games......which in itself is great, but it makes it more likely that the coach will be poached by bigger programs...and paid much more of course.....

If that's what URI wants....right now everyone wants much more.......and it's not happening or likely to happen with this coach......if URI wants to be the A10 big dog...they are going to have to find someone who can get them there......admitting that DH isn't "that guy" will be tough, but necessary.....
Last edited by rambone 78 7 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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