The State of College Basketball

[rodfromcranston]

Declining attendance for seven straight years and a rules committee made up of D-3 members.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/19/sport ... .html?_r=0

[eli#10]

We clearly need a 30 second clock!!!!

Anybody against that change?

[rodfromcranston]

I'd love to see them get rid of the 3 point line,
junk all the timeouts, and send all the refs to ref school.

[RAM67]

junk all the timeouts, and send all the refs to ref school.


AMEN!

[BFC]

The last five minutes of the Duke-Utah game took 35 minutes

.
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/03/ncaa-to ... h-of-games

[Rhody74]

Give teams who get fouled a choice of taking foul shots or taking the ball out-of-bounds.

[rhodyrudder]

The last five minutes of the Duke-Utah game took 35 minutes

They go to commercial every time the clock stops now!

[Rhode_Island_Red]

FWIW, here's Geno Auriemma:

"I think the game's a joke," Auriemma said. "It really is. I don't coach it, I don't play it, so I don't understand all the ins and outs of it, but as a spectator — forget that I'm a coach — as a spectator, watching it, it's a joke.

"There's only like 10 teams in the top 25 that play the kind of basketball that you like to watch. And every coach will tell you there's 90 million reasons for it. And the bottom line is, that nobody can score. They'll tell you that it's because of great defense, great scouting, a lot of film work … Nonsense. Nonsense."

The way Auriemma sees it, there's not enough offense in the men's game. While other sports have evolved to make scoring easier, the men's college game has stood still.

"College men's basketball is so far behind the times, it's unbelievable," he said. "I mean, women's basketball is behind the times. Men's basketball is even further behind the times. Every other major sport in the world has taken steps to help people be better on the offensive end of the floor.

"They've moved in the fences in baseball, they lowered the mound, they made the strike zone so that you need a straw to put through it. In the NFL, you touch a guy and it's a penalty. You hit the quarterback, you're out.

"This is entertainment, we're talking about. People have to decide: 'Do I want to pay 25 bucks, 30 bucks to go see a college scrum where everybody misses six out of every 10 shots they take, or do I want to go to a movie?'

"We're fighting for the entertainment dollar here and I've got to tell you, it's not entertaining from a fan's standpoint. That's not Geno Auriemma, the basketball coach, talking. I'm just talking as a fan."

http://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-wom ... story.html

[Gonebarongone]

The game is as bad as it's ever been. But it keeps on getting saved by great March drama and (this year) a final that could be undefeated UK against Duke. That will pull a monster TV number and all the talking heads will say the game is fine. It's not. So many problems not the least of which is crazy coaches who micromanage everything with these bloody timeouts. You notice Calipari did not call a TO when Harrison was at the line to set up his defense against ND's last play? How great was that?

Agree with the above. Take away timeouts. Extend the charge semi-circle. Widen the lane. Shorten the shot clock. Have the refs call the hand check like they did in the NBA. It took a few years but, guess what, it started to work.

[ATPTourFan]

Further reading on earlier work on the same subject recently:

Sports Illustrated's Seth Davis:
http://www.si.com/college-basketball/20 ... oring-pace

Nicole Auerbach of USA Today on lack of scoring:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nc ... /21959099/

[Rhode_Island_Red]

So with obvious nepotism hire Dan Gavitt in charge, what do we have to worry about?

[PlayMikeMotenMore]

A lot of this was mentioned earlier, but unfortunately URI's style of play fits the mold of those who are dragging the game down. You can whine all you want about the refs now and in the future...

But it's incumbent on the coaches and players to adjust to the officiating...not for the refs to adjust to URI's style of play.

[RAM67]

To say that it's incumbent of the coaches to adjust to the officiating is wrong and too simplistic. In many instances, they are not calling the same on both sides of the ball, or from game to game for that matter. One of the problems with calling the game is the lack of uniformity within the ranks of the officials and you cannot ask a coach to game plan based on who is officiating.
A perfect example would be the Stanford game. A debacle on all counts, and something I don't think you can prepare for.
I'm sure someone else can defend this better than me, but I disagree with your premise.

[Blue Man]

To say that it's incumbent of the coaches to adjust to the officiating is wrong and too simplistic. In many instances, they are not calling the same on both sides of the ball, or from game to game for that matter. One of the problems with calling the game is the lack of uniformity within the ranks of the officials and you cannot ask a coach to game plan based on who is officiating.
A perfect example would be the Stanford game. A debacle on all counts, and something I don't think you can prepare for.
I'm sure someone else can defend this better than me, but I disagree with your premise.

Agreed. The officiating problems are two pronged. One one hand you're correct that the lack of uniformity is absurd. Even the same officials aren't necessarily consistent on night to night or play to play. Ridiculous to ask a coach to try to change his gameplan based on that.

The 2nd, equally awful - is how many fouls are called. Watch big east basketball even recently and you'll see my first point of the lack of uniformity, but consider what the big east, and all of basketball, was even 2 years ago. What is called a foul now is laughable comparably. You literally had to physically harm someone to get a whistle. Now refs tend to think we are paying to see them blow a whistle.

The play needs to be allowed to be physical. The games where you see 40-60 fouls called is what slows everything down and makes it unwatchable.

Think about that for a second. 40 minutes in a game. Do people really want to see less than a minute of continuous play? Really? That's just bad.

[rambone 78]

I 100% agree with you on that, Blue Man.

But the refs aren't listening.

[rhodyrudder]

They constantly call fouls on plays that aren't fouls!
A defender puts his hand on a guy...whistle!
Why? Seriously!
I get what Geno is saying, but I don't want to watch games with no defense.
Just let somebody dribble up the court and make an uncontested layup?
This isn't girls lacrosse!
If you're not fouling someone, then YOU SHOULDN'T GET A WHISTLE.

One more point, they changed the rules some years back, only allowing subs
after the first free throw in a 2-shot situation, allegedly to speed the game up.
But the refs, coaches and players make almost every FT situation take way too long.
Seriously, 1 + 1 or 2 shots, let's go. Here's the ball. Shoot.
What takes so long to do that?

[rodfromcranston]

How about the endless checking the monitor, that happens.
Who wants to look at ref butt?
The refs seem to think they are the stars of the show.
To me, the best refs are the ones you don't notice.

[Da_Process_Survivor]

way too many "look at me" refs.

and agree its disgusting how every little bit of body contact has become a foul. Its to the point where you dont need skill anymore, just run into someone and you'll get 2 FT.

The one that bugs me is when a defender is straight up and the offensive player jumps forward initiating contact. thats not a foul, thats just good defense.

all goes back to the Jordan Rules really.

edit: agree with Rod refs in all sports are like offensive linemen. if you dont know their name, they're good at their job

[rjsuperfly66]

Some other things I'd like to be considered that probably won't happen:

1) Timeouts - I'd love to see FIBA rules. FIBA you can only call timeouts during stoppage in play or an opponents made basket. The worst to me is the end of the first half "use it or lose it" timeout. Teams almost religious call this timeout at the end of the half just because they can. Ed Cooley routinely would burn it with 1-4 seconds left after defending the other team. I don't think it came close to ever working. Do coaches have to huddle at the foul line? How about the reviews Rod mentioned? Keep the guys on the court. Why do you give a losing team out of timeouts the chance at 2 or 3 extra ones during the last few minutes of those close NCAA games? Why can't we just have a "replay official" at these big games who already can check out the replay and instead of getting these super stations set up for officials, they already have an answer?

2) TV Structure - Cut the TV timeouts. Again ... Pipedream. But there is nothing more annoying than a 30 second timeout extended to a full for the media. Coaches are coaching to the media timeout and not the constraints of the actual timeout. A 30 second timeout should be a 30 second timeout. If you want to extend for media, players should be on the court. But instead we give these teams 90 seconds, and then the TV comes back, and players are still in the huddle.

Little things can make the games more appealing. Now, skillsets are a different story. Kids need to be taught better. Kids are coddled to much growing up, no one can upset them. Why so many transfer? Because for years they are told they are God's gift to the universe. Many coaches let these kids do whatever they want because until a certain age, it's good enough to win. Then they hit a level where their athleticism isn't enough, and they struggle. Other players just as quick, just as long, just as athletic. How many "elite" players are strong perimeter shooters? The top guys drafted, most of them are not shooters. They are scorers who work to develop their shot. The mid-range game is invisible. It's drive or 3's. Players are taught short 3's better than long 2's, so you watch kids growing up now launching from 3, rather then developing an inside-out mindset that made the greats the greats. But until shooting improves, efficiency and scoring will be in the toilet. Shortening the shot clock improves scoring, but not efficiency. So people want to watch more bricks and more fouls because we are playing more possessions? Fun.

[Billyboy78]

It's nice to have a PC fan who comes here and actually contributes to the discussion. You're a good fan RJ.

[ATPTourFan]

Agreed. RJ is welcome here. He's earned it.

[Ramtastico]

I watched the URI- Duke NCAA game from way back and was shocked at how few stoppages there were. Very few media timeouts. So who is to blame for that? The NCAA allows all these numbing timeouts due to the massive amounts of $ they get from the networks. They created this mess. Also, as others have mentioned, I would get rid of going to the monitor totally. Call the GD game you ref pussies and let the calls stand. They go to the monitor WAY WAY too much!

[rjsuperfly66]

I can at least understand going to the monitor. Imagine being in an Elite 8 game. You are up 2 points with 5 seconds left. The ball goes out of bounds off the other team, but they say it's their ball. That team runs a good in-bounds play, and hits a miracle three at the buzzer for the win.

I'm all for getting the call right, I just think it's too time consuming. If an official goes to the monitor three times, it's taking 10-15 minutes. TOO MUCH. Some of these plays are so bang bang where Player X had the ball in their hand, but Player Y slapped it from behind, and whose finger did it graze as it went out of bounds. Part of the process is that the officials have to huddle, then they go to the monitor, than the monitor has to be setup, then they watch the replay a few times, then they talk, then they watch a few more replays, then they talk, then they go to the coaches, next thing you know it's been 5 minutes.

Have it be like college football. Have someone in these games watching. If a play is close on the replay, buzz in. This person can tell hopefully within 45 seconds . They tell the ref whose ball it is. The ref points and play resumes.

[RhowdyRam02]

I'm in the camp that thinks replay is essential because the refs aren't good enough to be trusted, the game moves too fast, and there's too much on the line. That said the process needs to be refined. You get 30 seconds looking at it on the monitor. If you can't tell what happened after 30 seconds then it's too close to call and the call on the court stands. That should keep the whole replay operation to a minute.

[ATPTourFan]

Yep. Agreed RhowdyRam02. With refs so incompetent, we do need replay, and perhaps more of it. But it must be done more efficiently.

[Ramblinrose]

TV timeouts seem more frequent now. For all their athleticism, players can't shoot. Few teams have a bona fide shooter, including URI. The last great shooter wqs Jimmy Jr.
The mid-range jumper? Gone the way of the peach basket. Richard Hamilton was unstoppable from 15 feet.

[Rhody83]

A few thoughts that I don't think have been brought up:
1) The NCAA instructed the refs a few years ago to call the handcheck a foul.
I think they thought it would help improve the game offensively. It didn't work.
2) The NCAA from pressure by the coaches add the 30 second timeouts.
3) Way back the bonus situation was 1 shot and take the ball out of bounds.

[ATPTourFan]

A few thoughts that I don't think have been brought up:
1) The NCAA instructed the refs a few years ago to call the handcheck a foul.
I think they thought it would help improve the game offensively. It didn't work.
2) The NCAA from pressure by the coaches add the 30 second timeouts.
3) Way back the bonus situation was 1 shot and take the ball out of bounds.

On Point #1, two seasons back the new hand check rule and block-charge rules DID increase scoring across NCAA. These changes were reverted, however, this season and scoring was at historical lows not seen in decades.

[PlayMikeMotenMore]

So I'm hearing the feedback correctly...

URI fans want less whistles, physical play to be allowed, and hand checking/riding the offensive player to be allowed.

Other college basketball fans want more freedom of movement for offensive players, less hand checking (which the NBA implemented a few years ago), and eliminating physical play (mauling) in the post. Officials can get rid of hand checking by playing their whistle and STICKING to it for more than the non-conference and more than a single season...and not giving into all the whining (Hurley) and complaining (biased fans).

Defense is meant to be played with your feet...not your biceps, forearms, or ass. Players should work in getting in position in front of the offense players and keep their hands off. Wisconsin can do it but URI cannot? Please.

[PlayMikeMotenMore]

By the way, 30 seconds to get a replay? There's a lot going on in a TV truck during a game. 4-5 cameras with replay on each. If you ever been in a TV truck during a live broadcast, it's not easy to coordinate everything...and now the producer has to talk to somebody with a headset at the scorers table? And get them every replay in 30 seconds? That's not easy.

I agree, that the stoppages should be limited and shortened but let's let replay get the call right. I'm OK with 75-90 seconds...which is the length of a normal TV timeout. Anything longer than that, too long.

[RhowdyRam02]

I think 30 seconds is sufficient. Replays shouldn't be analyzed like the Zapruder film, it should be about quickly overturning obvious blown calls. If you need more than three views of a play, about 30 seconds, then the video evidence just isn't conclusive enough to overturn the call.

[Rhodymob05]

Geno Auriemma, I respect you but you've been in a ladies locker room for too long. Everyone is getting a little over the top, sure college basketball isn't perfect but this years tournament.....like every years tournament was spectacular. Game-winners, big plays, clutch shots. What more do you want?? Womens basketball is like watching by 8 year old cousin play. Im sorry those ladies can ball but its true.

[rodfromcranston]

Does SEVEN years of declining attendance tell you Geno
might be right?
There was a big panel prior to Saturdays, games, on ESPN.
They had the President of the Big 10 and others.
What they were in total agreement was, the game needs changes to
spark more offense.
A litany of what was wrong, was addresses.
Did you know the rules committee is comprised of three D-3 members?
They also want the coaches removed from making new rules.
One suggestion is taking the FIBA rules and universally incorporating them.
They also want the refs to be hired, trained, and become accountable to one ruling body,
instead of working here and there.
Obviously, something has to give.
Pointing to the tourney of a few weeks, doesn't offset the low scoring, grinders produced
the rest of the year.
I thought the Iona game was the most enjoyable game to watch, all year.
Wide open offense, and a high score.

[rambone 78]

I think we're going to see a much more uptempo offense from us next season.

Iverson in particular should thrive in that type of game, along with our core four.

There might still be a few games where defense rules, but that depends on matchups.

Need to able to play more than one style. The really good teams can adjust and adapt when necessary.

Finally will have the quality depth to do so, as long as the newcomers are as good as hoped.

[Running Ram]

Personally I don't care too much about the 'hand check' situation, what I care about is accountability for the referees, I mean to say total accountability, I think they should have to wear 'go pro's' or whatever and every single call or non-call should be reviewable on an ongoing basis for evaluation purposes (not in game), once instituted most aspects of each referee's employment should be performance based. Assuming there will be way too much data to compile and assess, programs should have the right to request post game reviews of plays in question. After having an opportunity to review the game/plays, the requests should be righteous, a situation where coaches will understand they don't want to waist the efforts and time of the 'powers that be' on close calls, but egregious errors and/or blatant bias should not be tolerated.

[RhowdyRam02]

I think people need to slow down on drawing any conclusions from the Iona game. To have a game like that you need an opponent that's going to help you out to play like that. We played harder defense against ourselves in the layup line then what Iona played against us the rest of the night.

[rodfromcranston]

I'm not drawing any conclusions from the Iona game.
I know they don't play defense.
It was still a refreshingly fun game to watch.

[rjsuperfly66]

I think attendance being down can be looked at both ways. There is more exposure now. If you go back 7 years, you are talking about the creation of ESPN3. You are talking about the growth of CBS Sports Net, NBC Sports Net, and other regional sports networks. Now, the NCAA Tournament appears on 4 Networks, with the Final Four games appearing on three different networks (each with their own broadcast teams). I'm not surprised to see attendance down and TV viewership up (although they were down this year on ESPN, it's still a touch below "record" highs). It's not just college basketball (which is a 2nd-tier sport), but I would bet most sports besides NFL have seen declines in attendance. We are talking drops of roughly 450 people over 7 years in basketball. I can certainly see ease of availability (and to a lesser extent, quality of product) having an impact on that number. Heck, Syracuse alone saw a 3,000 person drop this season, because they were NIT bound (before self-imposing postseason ban).

[Rhode_Island_Red]

By the way, 30 seconds to get a replay? There's a lot going on in a TV truck during a game. 4-5 cameras with replay on each. If you ever been in a TV truck during a live broadcast, it's not easy to coordinate everything...and now the producer has to talk to somebody with a headset at the scorers table? And get them every replay in 30 seconds? That's not easy.

I agree, that the stoppages should be limited and shortened but let's let replay get the call right. I'm OK with 75-90 seconds...which is the length of a normal TV timeout. Anything longer than that, too long.

A TV timeout is 90 seconds? In what universe? They're two minutes, minimum, during the regular season, and about 2:30 during the NCAA tournament. Those 30-second timeouts? They're closer to a minute during the NCAA tournament. In every game, each coach gets four 30-second timeouts plus a full timeout each game. PLUS the first 30-second timeout of the second half is expanded to a full timeout. Plus four TV timeouts each half. Plus the interminable replays. A college basketball game is 40 minutes of activity compressed into two hours and 20 minutes.

Want to improve the game? Do something about the timeouts.

[SmartyBarrett]

Really good piece here:

http://www.si.com/college-basketball/20 ... es-changes

[PlayMikeMotenMore]

By the way, 30 seconds to get a replay? There's a lot going on in a TV truck during a game. 4-5 cameras with replay on each. If you ever been in a TV truck during a live broadcast, it's not easy to coordinate everything...and now the producer has to talk to somebody with a headset at the scorers table? And get them every replay in 30 seconds? That's not easy.

I agree, that the stoppages should be limited and shortened but let's let replay get the call right. I'm OK with 75-90 seconds...which is the length of a normal TV timeout. Anything longer than that, too long.

A TV timeout is 90 seconds? In what universe? They're two minutes, minimum, during the regular season, and about 2:30 during the NCAA tournament. Those 30-second timeouts? They're closer to a minute during the NCAA tournament. In every game, each coach gets four 30-second timeouts plus a full timeout each game. PLUS the first 30-second timeout of the second half is expanded to a full timeout. Plus four TV timeouts each half. Plus the interminable replays. A college basketball game is 40 minutes of activity compressed into two hours and 20 minutes.

Want to improve the game? Do something about the timeouts.

In what universe? How 'bout this universe...here's a link to the rule book. Flip a few pages and you'll see the length of timeouts section 12, article 4. Look it up. (Correct about the first :30 team timeout becoming a full timeout in the second half.)

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/Stats_Man ... rebook.pdf

Timeouts in the regular season run :90...but can go longer in NCAA tourney games due to the $$$ that these sponsors fork over.

[rambone 78]

Anybody read the article with Mark Cuban on espn.com, on how bad he thinks college ball is right now?

He nails it....

[Maineiac66]

I was lucky enough to see the Senior Day game as my first in several decades. My impression was that a basketball game broke out between time outs and infomercials. I realize that the bills have to be paid, and contributors to URI need to be recogized, but it took away from the flow of the game and the built up energy of the crowd. Adding to that was the music from the loudspeakers cranked up to a level that one could not converse with the person next to you. I thought the Ram Band was excellent and should have been featured more. I think the comments above regarding a faster clock and other suggestions are quite constructive. I also think overexposure is a major reason for decreased attendence. A winning team trumps that, however. URI is going to become a tough ticket.

[ATPTourFan]

Anybody read the article with Mark Cuban on espn.com, on how bad he thinks college ball is right now?

He nails it....

Thanks for sharing the link for us!

[ATPTourFan]

Here's the Cuban article on ESPN previously mentioned.

http://espn.go.com/dallas/nba/story/_/i ... urting-nba

[Sweep The Leg]

Yep. Agreed RhowdyRam02. With refs so incompetent, we do need replay, and perhaps more of it. But it must be done more efficiently.

The sad thing is that the refs aren't even getting the calls right after looking at the replay for 5 minutes.

[rodfromcranston]

Love Mark Cuban. No censors at all.
He's right about the stupid perimeter passing and guys standing around.
Yes, the refs are beyond awful, too.

[Sweep The Leg]

Love Mark Cuban. No censors at all.
He's right about the stupid perimeter passing and guys standing around.
Yes, the refs are beyond awful, too.

At least Cuban can't be fined critiquing the NCAA game.

I totally agree with the perimeter passing, I was vocal about the horrible weave Rhody ran from 23ft out parts of the season and the lack of motion and cutting from players without the ball.

The 30 second clock should help some with flow and teams will not slow down the game as much with a lead since there will be more possessions.

As for the refs, the WWE would be proud.

[rodfromcranston]

I always thought NBA refs were trained by the WWE.
They always made the right calls for certain players
and certain teams.
People I know can actually figure bets based on who the refs are for
the games.
One ref went to jail. Does anyone really think he was the only one
who was crooked?

[RhowdyRam02]

There's plenty to be critical of when it comes to the state of the game, but anyone from the NBA criticizing officiating is absolutely hilarious. Also, though it's functioned that way unfortunately, it's not the NCAA's job to get players ready for the NBA. If the NBA wants to make sure players are more prepared maybe they should improve their developmental system instead of trying to get other people to do their job for them. Finally, I do think it's a little interesting that two of the most vocal critics are Geno Auriemma and Mark Cuban. Let's be honest, both of those men have ulterior motives. I'm sure Geno would like to see resources in the women's game look more like the resources in the men's game and both men are essentially in businesses that compete with men's college basketball for attention and people's entertainment dollars.