Ali

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NYGFan_Section208
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Ali

Unread postby NYGFan_Section208 » 1 year ago

Not really a boxing fan anymore, but seeing all this Ali footage...reminds me of some really special times with my dad. RIP both of you.
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TruePoint
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Re: Ali

Unread postby TruePoint » 1 year ago

The Greatest
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rodfromcranston
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Re: Ali

Unread postby rodfromcranston » 1 year ago

Not really. The Greatest was what he named himself.
The greatest would not have lost to Leon Spinks, who
had 9 fights.
Ken Norton beat him, breaking his jaw. Also probably beat Ali at least another time,
but get screwed on a decision.
KOd by Larry Holmes, and Trevor Berbick.
Berbick beat him do badly, it is thought to have caused Ali brain damage.
Frazier beat him.
I think the Cus D'Amato trained Mike Tyson pre-Buster Douglas) would have
walked right though Ali in in a round or two.
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TruePoint
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Re: Ali

Unread postby TruePoint » 1 year ago

As usual, rod is right and everyone else is wrong. Aside from whether he was the actual greatest fighter of all time (which reasonable people can have different opinions), he was The Greatest in many ways that transcend his accomplishments in the ring.
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Re: Ali

Unread postby rodfromcranston » 1 year ago

I gave facts, you as usual a personal attack.
As a personality, yes, he was the greatest.
As a fighter? No, for the reasons I gave.
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eli#10
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Re: Ali

Unread postby eli#10 » 1 year ago

Come on TP--how dare you question the Greatest Rod? You know how he doesn't like all these personal attacks.
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rodfromcranston
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Re: Ali

Unread postby rodfromcranston » 1 year ago

Look, the troll king, who only posts when he sees someone
come out against me.
Never adds shit to a discussion, just bitch slaps.
The Mickey Rivers of Keaney Blue.
Whatever.
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rjsuperfly66
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Re: Ali

Unread postby rjsuperfly66 » 1 year ago

I guess the real question is how much different was the talent back then?
Ali went 56-5.
My understanding was that it was more competitive back then.
Ali was dominate, but there will still other talented fighters opposed to someone like Mayweather who often had huge talent advantage.
Also, he was strong until the end, he won 55 of his first 57 fights, then went 1-3 to end his career.
If not Ali, then who?
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rodfromcranston
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Re: Ali

Unread postby rodfromcranston » 1 year ago

Ever hear of Rocky Marciano?
49-0 44 KOs?
ONLY undefeated retired champion
at any level.
If not him, try Joe Louis.
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Re: Ali

Unread postby rjsuperfly66 » 1 year ago

I guess my question would be, who fought consistently better talent?
That was part of my understanding of why Rocky was disrespected despite the perfect record, fighting nobodies at the Providence Auditorium.
But honestly, way before my time.
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Re: Ali

Unread postby rodfromcranston » 1 year ago

Nobodies? Like Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott,
Archie Moore, and knocking Joe Louis out of the ring?
He could destroy opponents with both hands.
Iron chin. Knocked down ONCE in his 49 fights.
Highest KO % in the history of boxing.

Ali went to decision vs. Leon Spinks(2) Doug Jones,
Alfredo Evagelista, Ernie Shavers, Jimmy Young,
Joe Bugner, George Chuvalo(2), Buster Mathis,Alonzo Johnson,
Mac Foster, Ernie Terrell, and the immoral Duke Saebong.
Not exactly a Hall of Fame roster.

As for Merriweather having weak competition,
Oscar Della Hoya, Manny Paquiao,Miguel Cotto,
Canelo Alvarez, Shane Mosley, Zab Judah, Arturo Gatti,
all are future Boxing Hall of Famers.
I can't stand Mayweather, but he now stands 49-0,
tied with Marciano.
Nobody ever beat either of them.

My all time favorite is Marvin Hagler.
If not for his getting robbed in Vegas vs. Leonard,
you could be talking about him as the best ever.
So much fun to watch.

Genady Golovkin and Sergey Kovalev could challenge for
best ever before they're through.
Both super KO power and fine boxers.
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Re: Ali

Unread postby rjsuperfly66 » 1 year ago

So I admittedly know nothing about some of the names you through out at me ...
I see that Ezzard Charles was 93-25.
I know no professional in this era fights that amount of fights.
I have no context for the quality of the fighters, honestly nothing.
Jersey Joe was 51-18.
Again no context though for the full body of work.
Win % doesn't seem too strong.
Archie Moore was 185-23-10. Holy shit.
Who was he beating for 185 career wins? Glorified punching bags?
I think that means he fought almost once a month for 18 or something years.
That's insane.

In terms of Mayweather, I think he has been blessed at times for catching a lot of guys at the right time.
There's names, sure, but did you fight them in their prime? Think of how long he dodged Pac.

That's sort of why I like UFC. 1 belt per weight class, you want to be the best, you have to beat the best.
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Re: Ali

Unread postby rodfromcranston » 1 year ago

Sugar Ray Robinson was 173-19-6.
Regarded by many as the best pound per pound fighter ever.
Different times, when smaller fighter fought many many
bouts.
Even closer to today, Julio Cesar Chavez was 107-6-2.
Chavez was 93-0 at one point.
Charles and Walcott were both Heavy Weight Champions,
when that was the most coveted title in sports.

Mayweather got Paquiao on the way down, for sure.
He did fight Cotto,and the others in their prime.
Not sure if Alvarez has hit his prime yet.
The fight everyone wants to see is Mayweather-GGG,
which will never happen.
GGG is a pure middleweight and can't see
Mayweather moving up or GGG moving down.
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Re: Ali

Unread postby Rhodymob05 » 1 year ago

The guy was incredible and had one hell of a personality. I totally disagreed with his Vietnam political decision and however he got away with not going to war when many others didn't want to go, but did and died for their country. That said, he's one of the best fighters ever. Sugar Ray is quietly believed as the best ever, what about Rocky Marciano? Never been beat, 49-0 43 Ko's.
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Re: Ali

Unread postby rodfromcranston » 1 year ago

Hope you mean Robinson and not Leonard.
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Re: Ali

Unread postby rjsuperfly66 » 1 year ago

rodfromcranston wrote:The fight everyone wants to see is Mayweather-GGG,
which will never happen.
GGG is a pure middleweight and can't see
Mayweather moving up or GGG moving down.


McGregor would be the perfect one-off fight for Mayweather.
People would pay, they'd want to see the personalities.
Mayweather could collect another $100 million easy.
Plus, he should dominate assuming it's purely boxing.
McGregor would easily collect $50 million, easily 10x more than anything he's received from UFC.
He'd probably owe the UFC a cut for letting him venture off in the prime of his career.'
I'd love to see Mayweather-GGG, but I can't see him coming back against a legit contender.
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Re: Ali

Unread postby rodfromcranston » 1 year ago

Well, what would the rules be?
Strictly boxing, Mayweather wins, barring a
lucky punch.
If they allow grappling, all bets are off.
Not a big UFC fan.
When it first began. it was legitimate martial artists
like the Gracies.
Now, it looks like a bunch of overly tattooed street thugs
trying to kill each other.
Lots of WWE to it, especially in the trash talk.
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Re: Ali

Unread postby TruePoint » 1 year ago

Ali also spent the prime of his career on the sideline because of the Vietnam war. Personally, I think his position on the war has been proven right by history, but understand that is a touchy subject for some and don't want to debate it. The bottom line is that he did not just choose to stay home, he paid a significant personal and professional price for his stance. He also came back as a completely different fighter because he couldn't move as well at that point, and still managed to turn in legendary fights. I didn't see Marciano fight and comparing any athletes, but especially boxers, across eras is purely subjective.

I don't really even feel that strongly about whether Ali was the best ever, or fourth best, or whatever. He's on a very short list of most talented fighters ever, and he was maybe the most influential athlete of the 20th century. I was just trying to say something nice about a legendary guy that died (and using a phrase that is frequently connected to him), not get into a technical debate about his sports skills. I do respect the knowledge of people who have seen much much more boxing than me, so I'll leave the assessments of that stuff to others.
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Re: Ali

Unread postby ramfan85 » 1 year ago

TruePoint wrote:Ali also spent the prime of his career on the sideline because of the Vietnam war. Personally, I think his position on the war has been proven right by history, but understand that is a touchy subject for some and don't want to debate it. The bottom line is that he did not just choose to stay home, he paid a significant personal and professional price for his stance. He also came back as a completely different fighter because he couldn't move as well at that point, and still managed to turn in legendary fights. I didn't see Marciano fight and comparing any athletes, but especially boxers, across eras is purely subjective.

I don't really even feel that strongly about whether Ali was the best ever, or fourth best, or whatever. He's on a very short list of most talented fighters ever, and he was maybe the most influential athlete of the 20th century. I was just trying to say something nice about a legendary guy that died (and using a phrase that is frequently connected to him), not get into a technical debate about his sports skills. I do respect the knowledge of people who have seen much much more boxing than me, so I'll leave the assessments of that stuff to others.


Good post. Always wise to avoid talking about Viet Nam.

My brother once sat next to Ali on a flight to California. Must have been an interesting trip. My brother, at the time, was a Marine Lt. Col. He could only say nice things about him.
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Re: Ali

Unread postby NYGFan_Section208 » 1 year ago

My dad took me to see the Foreman fight on closed circuit at the Portland Expo...was one of the best sports memories of my life with him.
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Re: Ali

Unread postby ramster » 1 year ago

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Re: Ali

Unread postby TruePoint » 1 year ago

The Godfather weighs in
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rambone 78
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Re: Ali

Unread postby rambone 78 » 1 year ago

Ali the fighter was probably the best ever until his 3+ year absence from the ring.

After he came back, he was slower and couldn't avoid the head shots that added up big time over the rest of his career. Certainly started with the first Frazier bout.

I read where Ali really didn't know the proper way to avoid head punches, he tended to lean back instead of moving side to side. Of course his slowing down had something to do with that I would think.

He said he probably took 29,000 punches to the head in his career. That's mind boggling [or mind scrambling].

He had an iron chin, that's for sure.
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Re: Ali

Unread postby rodfromcranston » 1 year ago

If you want to take any boxer for a shorter than
career period, Mike Tyson was easily the best.
He became champion with a KO over Michael Spinks in
less than one minute.
Nobody stood a prayer with the Cus Damato Tyson.
Look up some of his fights on You Tube. Scary.
He was the most devastating force in boxing history
pre-Buster Douglas.
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Re: Ali

Unread postby NYGFan_Section208 » 1 year ago

Agree on Tyson...scariest guy on the planet for a time.
And...many of his opponents WERE scared of him, too...never saw that - like that - with any other fighter.
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Re: Ali

Unread postby Ramblinrose » 1 year ago

D'Amato died when Tyson was 20. If he'd stayed with Kevin Rooney, I think would have continued to dominate. Tyson had no Frazier or Norton in his era. Douglas was a fluke. Holyfield never backed down from Tyson. I think after prison Tyson was fight just for money.
I'm glad I'm old enough to have seen Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Norton. And Rod is right about Hagler. The three round Hagler-Hearns is phenomenal. You knew it from the opening bell, it wasn't going to go long.
Rod, some suspect Ali incurred early damage from the Thrilla in Manila. If you see the ESPN doc Ali Holmes, Ali is already slurring.
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Re: Ali

Unread postby Ramblinrose » 1 year ago

Sox lighting it up
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