KeaneyBlue - The URI Basketball Forum

I definitely wrote this team off as not having the firepower for the playoffs, but glad to see my man Price making people like him. Great performance by my guy.

rodfromcranston wrote:Farrell is a poor in game manager.
Oh, and a new manager who won't let the inmates run the
asylum, would help, too.

Completely agree. The guy makes many poor and questionable decisions.

Today's game was a disaster when they went down 3-0. A LOT of booing in Fenway Park.

Always thought Hanley would need to have a strong season to help offset the loss of Ortiz.

Today Hanley went a solid 4-4. They really need his bat.

Tomorrow's game will be interesting to see who Farrell goes with as his starting pitcher. Would love to see a game 5 in Houston on Wednesday.

Lucky. Several balls hit by Houston to the deepest part of right field....

Red Sox almost always win the game of inches at home....too bad they can't be at home for games 4 AND 5 if they get that far....

Great job by Pitcher Dave today...I actually stood and clapped in my living room when he finished...but, just my opinion...he's still a huge ______.

rambone 78 wrote:Lucky. Several balls hit by Houston to the deepest part of right field....

Red Sox almost always win the game of inches at home....too bad they can't be at home for games 4 AND 5 if they get that far....

??? What do you mean? Game 4 is at Boston tomorrow at 1pm. Game 5 returns to Houston on Wednesday.

NYGFan_Section208 wrote:Great job by Pitcher Dave today...I actually stood and clapped in my living room when he finished...but, just my opinion...he's still a huge ______.

Agree on that ______ 208. Interesting listening to the panel after the game talk about Price. Some felt that Farrell should have started Price today. Others felt that it was best to keep him coming out of the bullpen.

Who do you think takes the mound tomorrow?

Rick Porcello and anyone else that can? I would just love to see it get to the 3rd inning with the 'stros having less than 3 runs....

The bats showed up finally!

Sounds like Porcello gets the start. Weather could be an issue today.

Looks like Girardi could get canned over his mistake not calling for a replay of the hit batter.....cost them the game and most likely the series....they would be up 2-1 with a pretty good chance to move on.

If the Yanks win game 4 but lose game 5....could happen....he's been a good manager overall imo but that mistake was inexcusable.

Who's "out there" that would represent an upgrade over Girardi? It's not the Steinbrenner era anymore, so I doubt they can the guy based on a single game. The dude has a Manager of the Year and led this team to ALDS when it was supposed to be a re-building year, wasn't it?

I say, if the Yanks fire Girardi...the Sox should fire Farrell within minutes (even if mid-game) and scoop him up on the spot....

Maybe so 208...but the NY media is brutal and unforgiving, just like the Boston media.....

I'll do it for 600k......

2-1 Houston winning and Sox load the bases with nobody out. Jackie Bradley up with no outs and he takes 3 freaken called strikes. I don't care how bad the ump calls might have been you HAVE to swing the bat. I would always tell my Little League kids that you have to protect the plate.
The Pedroia takes a called 3rd strike with one out and the bases loaded. Only good thing that came out of it all was Farrell got thrown out of the game.
Bases loaded, no outs, playing at home and no runs. Not good in playoff baseball.

we'll see what happens...but...we don't like the Sale move...

Sale pitching well......but how about Detroit now warming up Verlander???

wow, 208, Verlander coming in for his first receive appearance of his career! Houston really wants to win this game in Boston

Benintendi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

403 career appearances, all starts. And Benintendi hits a 2 run homer off him. What a hit!!!!

who would have thought we would have Sale against Verlander today! Must win game for Boston, and Houston wants desperately to end it.

The expectation was Verlander vs Sale for Game 5....................

Left Sale in too long....should have gone to the pen to start a clean inning..

Sawx not good enuff....

Interesting offseason coming up.

They're going to have to trade off one of their young outfielders for a power bat, IMO.

time for a manager change

Need a new manager and a big bat in the middle of the order.

Yanks kicking ass early tonight....if they win and force a 5th game.....and lose it I will be pissed....they should have won it in 4.....

Now beating the Astros in a 7 game series? Probably not, but who thought they would have a shot against the Indians?

I wonder it Devers winds up at 1st base?
He's a butcher at 3rd.
So, is anyone really an"untouchable"?
Dave Dombrowki inherited some really bad
contracts from Cherington.
Hanley, Sandoval, Porcello, and Pedroia.
That's 68 million for under performers.
Add Price to the list, and it's 98 million.
Yet, they let Edwin Enccarnacion sign for 20 million
and 3 years in Cleveland/
One of the wealthiest franchises in MLB and ownership
wouldn't allow the GM to go over the luxury tax.
The need is power. Nobody has more power
than Giancarlo Stanton.
27 years old and in his prime.
Imagine him in Fenway Park, instead of the
huge Miami stadium?
Dombrowki once stole Miguel Cabrera from
the Marlin.
He loves power guys.
Maybe he can pull one to Boston this fall or winter?

The Yankees may have a brighter future than the Sox......their farm system is loaded now....the Sox's not so much.

rodfromcranston wrote:I wonder it Devers winds up at 1st base?
He's a butcher at 3rd.
So, is anyone really an"untouchable"?
Dave Dombrowki inherited some really bad
contracts from Cherington.
Hanley, Sandoval, Porcello, and Pedroia.
That's 68 million for under performers.
Add Price to the list, and it's 98 million.
Yet, they let Edwin Enccarnacion sign for 20 million
and 3 years in Cleveland/
One of the wealthiest franchises in MLB and ownership
wouldn't allow the GM to go over the luxury tax.
The need is power. Nobody has more power
than Giancarlo Stanton.
27 years old and in his prime.
Imagine him in Fenway Park, instead of the
huge Miami stadium?
Dombrowki once stole Miguel Cabrera from
the Marlin.
He loves power guys.
Maybe he can pull one to Boston this fall or winter?

Right about the contracts he inherited Rod, plus how could we forget the immortal Rusney Castillo for a humongous $72 million?

rambone 78 wrote:The Yankees may have a brighter future than the Sox......their farm system is loaded now....the Sox's not so much.

That's a huge problem with the DD philosophy, he's all but gutted the farm system, there is really nothing left of tremendous value other than Jason Groome.
If you look at the 2016 Spring Training list, DD had the #3 prospect (Moncada), the #15 prospect (Benitendi), the #18 prospect (Devers), the #19 prospect (Espinosa), and the #89 prospect (Kopech). Those guys were either all traded or are now in the majors.
Whose left? Jason Groome (draft last year - ETA 2019) ranks #42, Michael Chavis ranks #92 (ETA 2019), that's it for ranked top prospects.
Want to make a big move? Who are you trading?
If the Sox want Stanton, I'm going to bet that it starts with Mookie Betts or Andrew Benitendi.
Maybe something like Betts/Benitendi, Devers, and Groome.
All of these "little" moves are going to be make it extremely challenging to make a transformative trade without peeling off major pieces off the roster.

Nighty night, Sox. So glad I didn't invest any time into this version of the old ball club. I did watch yesterday and wasn't surprised at how it ended.

Trading prospects for proven talent, like Sale and Kimbrell,
is a no brainer.
In his career, Cliff Lee was traded for a total of 13 prospects,
most highly rated.
Not ONE of those prospects ever made any impact in MLB.
Prospects are suspects until proven otherwise.
The list of highly rated busts are legion.
In this century, the Sox had far more flops with their
number one picks than hits.
Not to mention that they passed on Mike Trout, and to this day,
try to rationalize that.
Espinosa has hardly pitched in the minors, because of
arm problems.
Moncada hit .231 with a 412 slugging percentage.
I'll take an established player for prospects, any day.

I am a big Stanton fan, but I don't want any part of a trade for him. Instead, I'd rather see them sign JD Martinez in free agency. Martinez has arguably been a better offensive player than Stanton over the past few seasons and will only cost money (and much less money than Stanton costs), not prospects. This allows you to keep the core of your major league roster intact while bolstering the lineup. Additionally, it allows you to flip prospects that you would have traded for Stanton for another player that could make the roster even stronger.

rodfromcranston wrote:Trading prospects for proven talent, like Sale and Kimbrell,
is a no brainer.
In his career, Cliff Lee was traded for a total of 13 prospects,
most highly rated.
Not ONE of those prospects ever made any impact in MLB.
Prospects are suspects until proven otherwise.
The list of highly rated busts are legion.
In this century, the Sox had far more flops with their
number one picks than hits.
Not to mention that they passed on Mike Trout, and to this day,
try to rationalize that.
Espinosa has hardly pitched in the minors, because of
arm problems.
Moncada hit .231 with a 412 slugging percentage.
I'll take an established player for prospects, any day.

My problem with DD isn't with trading prospects as much as who they've been traded for.
For as bad as Anderson Espinosa has been, in 2016 he was still a Top 20 prospect.
He was traded for a guy who couldn't finish 2016 in the rotation, and while he did have a good regular season, completely vomited on himself in the playoffs.
The question with that trade is not if Espinosa will be better in 5 years than Pomeranz was the last few, the real question is did the Sox maximize the value of that prospect ranking?
Last offseason, he traded for Tyler Thornburg, a guy with a wacky arm motion who people thought was destined for issues.
Not only did he trade Travis Shaw (who hit .273, 31 HR, 101 RBI this season), they threw in a mid-level prospect in Mauricio Dubon.
How many times has a GM traded 4 guys (including one pretty high ranked player) for a closer?
Two of those guys are already contributing for the big club, Logan Allen is young and could contribute as a reliever in a few years.
Individually, I think it's easy to justify the moves.
However collectively, you look at it being done over and over and over and over again, and what's left?
The only pieces to trade now are in the majors... You want Stanton, who off your major league roster are you trading?
Are you doing Benitendi/Betts, Devers, and Groome?
That's the type of deal you'll have to make because you don't really have any other options.
That's where I think they've missed, I think they've just misused some of these other prospects and overpaid to get players.

Martinez is three years older than Stanton.
NESN's ratings are way down.
Stanton puts eyes on NESN.
Stanton's WAR is 7.1, to Martinez 4.1.
He is the premier home run hitter in the game,
while playing in a big ballpark, and not in a great lineup.
Martinez benefited from playing where the ball flies out surrounded by
a very talented lineup.
I don't care who they'd give up for Stanton.
He gives the team something they don't have.
A real marquee player with amazing power, in his prime.
Signing sluggers 30 and over to expensive multi year contracts, is very risky business,
as we've seen many times.
Oh, and without Pomeranz, the Sox don't win their division.
Regulars seasons matter, last I looked.

rodfromcranston wrote: Oh, and without Pomeranz, the Sox don't win their division.
Regulars seasons matter, last I looked.

You traded your Top 15 prospect for a guy who is a #3 starter on a good team ...
Yes, he had a very good regular season.
Yes, the Sox don't win the division without him.
But could they have used Espinosa in another deal?
Maybe got Jose Quintana?
I know in his only career postseason start, he just went 5.2 innings, 2 hits, 1 run (unearned).
But is the goal to just win the division, or win in the playoffs?
For some reason, the lights do not turn on with this group when the playoffs come, specifically with the rotation.
Red Sox starters this postseason:
Sale - 5 innings, 7 runs
Pomeranz - 2 innings, 4 runs
Fister - 1.1 innings, 3 runs
Porcello - 3 innings, 2 runs
Last season:
Porcello - 4.1 innings, 5 runs
Price - 3.1 innings, 5 runs
Buchholz - 4 innings, 2 runs
Total: 7 games, 23 innings, 28 runs
Average: 3 innings, 4 runs
How can you beat anyone with that type of starting pitching?

So, what do you suggest?
Shoot the pitching staff?
There are two Cy Young winners, a king of strikeouts,
supposedly the best closer in the game on staff.
Yet, you go on about a guy who may never pitch in MLB.

rjsuperfly66 wrote:

rodfromcranston wrote:Trading prospects for proven talent, like Sale and Kimbrell,
is a no brainer.
In his career, Cliff Lee was traded for a total of 13 prospects,
most highly rated.
Not ONE of those prospects ever made any impact in MLB.
Prospects are suspects until proven otherwise.
The list of highly rated busts are legion.
In this century, the Sox had far more flops with their
number one picks than hits.
Not to mention that they passed on Mike Trout, and to this day,
try to rationalize that.
Espinosa has hardly pitched in the minors, because of
arm problems.
Moncada hit .231 with a 412 slugging percentage.
I'll take an established player for prospects, any day.

My problem with DD isn't with trading prospects as much as who they've been traded for.
For as bad as Anderson Espinosa has been, in 2016 he was still a Top 20 prospect.
He was traded for a guy who couldn't finish 2016 in the rotation, and while he did have a good regular season, completely vomited on himself in the playoffs.
The question with that trade is not if Espinosa will be better in 5 years than Pomeranz was the last few, the real question is did the Sox maximize the value of that prospect ranking?
Last offseason, he traded for Tyler Thornburg, a guy with a wacky arm motion who people thought was destined for issues.
Not only did he trade Travis Shaw (who hit .273, 31 HR, 101 RBI this season), they threw in a mid-level prospect in Mauricio Dubon.
How many times has a GM traded 4 guys (including one pretty high ranked player) for a closer?
Two of those guys are already contributing for the big club, Logan Allen is young and could contribute as a reliever in a few years.
Individually, I think it's easy to justify the moves.
However collectively, you look at it being done over and over and over and over again, and what's left?
The only pieces to trade now are in the majors... You want Stanton, who off your major league roster are you trading?
Are you doing Benitendi/Betts, Devers, and Groome?
That's the type of deal you'll have to make because you don't really have any other options.
That's where I think they've missed, I think they've just misused some of these other prospects and overpaid to get players.

And we've seen this strategy doesn't work long term, just look at the mess Detroit is in.

rodfromcranston wrote:So, what do you suggest?
Shoot the pitching staff?
There are two Cy Young winners, a king of strikeouts,
supposedly the best closer in the game on staff.
Yet, you go on about a guy who may never pitch in MLB.

I'm not saying Espinosa was the answer, my only point about him was and still is that he was a Top 15 pitcher, could they have gotten more for him?
It's an issue though, you can't keep throwing out starter after starter and watching them go 3 innings, 4 runs.
I'd argue they need someone with postseason pedigree in the rotation -- someone who has been there and seen success.
I think someone like Lackey in 2013, he didn't have a great tenure in Boston but was really good in those playoffs as a supporting pitcher to Lester.
Sale has a history of breaking down at the end of the season ... are we really that surprised what happened especially with how Farrell overused him at times?
I don't know if this continuing issue is Farrell, or the pitchers, but it's definitely an issue when Clay Buchholz going 4 innings, 2 runs might have been your best start in the last 7 postseason games.

So, how many great years did Detroit get from Cabrera, Kinsler, both Martinez,
Verlander, Sherzer et al?
What kind of shitpile would Detroit have been over those years, without those players?

Will take Stanton for anyone but Benintendi or Devers....
They NEED that guy...

RJ,
As you know, the Pomeranz for Espinosa trade has been discussed at length here, right in this thread, and you were adamant about how bad a trade it was for Boston and I was equally adamant about how I liked the trade.

Surprising to me that you are still arguing the trade.........
1. San Diego was caught with-holding info on a Pomeranz health (and other players too), yet Boston went ahead with the trade anyway with no additional compensation - tells us something, no? Red Sox wanted Pomeranz for Espinosa even with the health info with held.
2. Espinosa pitched last season in single A, not great. Then has had injuries this season - not pitching in 2017. Diagnosed with Tommy John and operated on in August. Will sit out all of 2018 as well.
3. Pomeranz has been the Red Sox #2 Pitcher to Chris Sale this season. 17-6 record as compared to Sale at 17-8. Sale best seasons have been 2012 (17-8), 2016 (17-10) and this year 2017 (17-8).
4. Pomeranz ERA of 3.32 equaled his ERA his All-Star year with San Diego when he went 8-7.
5. Without Pomeranz Red Sox do not make the playoffs this season
6. Chris Sale got racked by Houston in Game 1 - 7 earned runs on 9 hits in 5 innings
7. When Red Sox were floundering down the stretch and had lost 4 of their last 5 games including the first 2 of a 3 game series with Houston, Pomeranz stopped Houston winning his 17th game going 6 innings, giving up only 3 hits and 1 earned run. Sox needed a win badly and Pomeranz came through. Yankees were closing fast.
8. Pomeranz win totals were:
2011: 2-1
2012: 2-9
2013: 0-4
2014: 5-4
2015: 5-6
2016: 11-12 (8-7 with San Diego and 3-5 with Boston)
2017: 17-6

Some bigger questions for Boston:
How does Porcello go from 22-4 to 11-17? ERA from 3.15 to 4.65?
Rodriguez only went 6-7, Fister went 5-9.
What has happened to David Price? $217 million 7 year contract - for a 6-3 record and creating issues
What happened to Steven Wright 1-3 and out for season. Never the same after Farrell pinch ran him at 2nd base

Low batting averages AND lack of Power:
Hanley Ramirez and Mitch Moreland only .246
Betts only .264
Bradley only .245
No starting hitting over .300
No Grand Slam Home Runs all year
Nunez a nice pick up hitting .321 but then injured

A clueless manager
Plays Marrero, a .211 hitter, for Devers in the 2nd game vs Houston............why?
too many examples of cluelessness to mention

Bottom Line - the last person who should be getting blamed for this 2nd year in a row of Red Sox not winning the American League Play Off Series is Pomeranz or the Pomeranz for Espinosa Trade.

Definitely no Playoffs without Pomeranz, no 1st Place in Division.
Would I make the trade again? No question.

The problem with your scenario is that every time you talk about making the trade, you say that they would not make the playoffs without Pomeranz, which is true. But you continue to ignore the fact that the Sox OVERPAID by trading a Top 15 prospect for a career journeyman having a career year. Could they have traded a Top 15 pitcher for someone with a better pedigree than Drew Pomeranz? Could they have worked a package of lesser prospects for Pomeranz? That trade has nothing to do with what Espinosa was or has become, the fact is at that time he was a top prospect in all of baseball. And what has compounded this issue is the fact that every trade DD has made (with the exception of the Sale trade) it's felt like he's overpaid and has not had any problem including prospect after prospect to make these trades work. Rod is right, relying on prospects to build for the future, it's imperfect and probably flawed, but just because you have lottery chips doesn't mean you should overextend on every prospect or sell low because they are a prospect. As imperfect as they are, prospects still have a lot of value throughout major league baseball.

But fact is, I'm not blaming Pomeranz for losing in the ALDS, he was a part of a much bigger problem with the starting pitching. The reason it came up is because now everyone is all excited about going and getting Giancarlo Stanton, one of the most polarizing guys in all of baseball, but the Sox have really no significant prospects of value so to make that trade, it's probably going to require peeling off two key pieces of your existing MLB roster (Betts, Benitendi, Devers). There is not one way I can see adding Stanton to that roster and still having the core look the same as it did this year.

So what? The core didn't win.
In a year of mad homers all over MLB,
the Sox were dead last in HRs.
I've never heard a peep about Stanton being a problem.
As for injuries, he got hit in the face with a fastball, causing his
longest time on the DL.
I doubt it was a fault of his body failing him.
It remains to be seen what the Marlins initially ask for,
and what in reality, they'll expect, in return.
I'm sure DD will at least make the call, unlike
Cherington, who never contacted Oakland about
Donaldson, and grossly overpaid for Sandoval.

SF,
I still do not see how you can say the Red Sox overpaid for Pomeranz
He was an All Star Pitcher for one year with San Diego. At the time people here against the trade said Pomeranz made the All Star team because San Diego needed a player on the All Star team. Basically it was a fluke.
If there was a Post Season All Start Team (and there used to be many, many years ago) Pomeranz would be on it with his 17-6 record and 3.32 ERA.
3 Pitchers won 18 games: Kluber (18-4), Carrasco (18-6) and Vargas (18-11)
3 Pitchers won 17 games: Pomeranz (17-6), Sale (17-8) and Bauer (17-9)
1 Pitcher won 16 games: Santana (16-8)
1 Pitcher won 15 games: Verlander (15-8)
Pretty good company Pomeranz kept

If I told you prior to the Anderson Espinosa trade:
Pomeranz would:
- Lead the Red Sox in record in 2017 going 17-6, exceeding even Chris Sale at 17-8
- Have the same ERA of 3.32 that he had in his All Star Season at Dan Diego
- Pitch a career high 173.2 Innings, starting 32 games. Breaking his all time Innings of 170.2 with San Diego/Boston in 2016 and shattering his previous high of 96.2 in 2012.
- Combine with Sale to be the first two Left Handers on the Red Sox to win 15 or more games since 1953 (Mel Parnell and Mickey McDermott)

You may think the Red Sox could or should have gotten more for Espinosa than Pomeranz but I don't know who

I just can't see how you can still believe that San Diego got the best of this trade.

Last year nobody believed Pomeranz would be in the starting rotation. He was without a doubt Boston's 2nd best pitcher this season. Traded for a Single A Minor League Prospect

This article just out..............

Pomeranz would have been the starting pitcher for Boston in Game 5 in Houston. He wants to hit 200 innings next season.

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/258149002 ... rong-2017/

I can't believe people still use a pitcher's win loss record to evaluate what kind of year they had

RhowdyRam02 wrote:I can't believe people still use a pitcher's win loss record to evaluate what kind of year they had

Won Loss Record figures prominently in whether a pitcher makes the All Star Team or not, or gets the Cy Young Award,

All of those pitchers I mentioned that had 15, 16, 17 or 18 wins had excellent years

Add In ERA, Innings Pitched, Strike Outs, Walks, etc and get the whole pictures. It's not just Won Loss Record as you are indicating

Then why did you primarily use won loss record in your post? Won loss record is not a good indicator of quality and should not be used by a serious person in a debate

RhowdyRam02 wrote:Then why did you primarily use won loss record in your post? Won loss record is not a good indicator of quality and should not be used by a serious person in a debate

I disagree that Won - Loss is not a good indicator of quality. I also disagree that Won - Loss record should not be used in a debate.

I would take any of the 18,17,16 and 15 game winners in the American League this year on my team in a heartbeat.

ramster wrote:SF,
I still do not see how you can say the Red Sox overpaid for Pomeranz
He was an All Star Pitcher for one year with San Diego. At the time people here against the trade said Pomeranz made the All Star team because San Diego needed a player on the All Star team. Basically it was a fluke.
If there was a Post Season All Start Team (and there used to be many, many years ago) Pomeranz would be on it with his 17-6 record and 3.32 ERA.
3 Pitchers won 18 games: Kluber (18-4), Carrasco (18-6) and Vargas (18-11)
3 Pitchers won 17 games: Pomeranz (17-6), Sale (17-8) and Bauer (17-9)
1 Pitcher won 16 games: Santana (16-8)
1 Pitcher won 15 games: Verlander (15-8)
Pretty good company Pomeranz kept

If I told you prior to the Anderson Espinosa trade:
Pomeranz would:
- Lead the Red Sox in record in 2017 going 17-6, exceeding even Chris Sale at 17-8
- Have the same ERA of 3.32 that he had in his All Star Season at Dan Diego
- Pitch a career high 173.2 Innings, starting 32 games. Breaking his all time Innings of 170.2 with San Diego/Boston in 2016 and shattering his previous high of 96.2 in 2012.
- Combine with Sale to be the first two Left Handers on the Red Sox to win 15 or more games since 1953 (Mel Parnell and Mickey McDermott)

You may think the Red Sox could or should have gotten more for Espinosa than Pomeranz but I don't know who

I just can't see how you can still believe that San Diego got the best of this trade.

Last year nobody believed Pomeranz would be in the starting rotation. He was without a doubt Boston's 2nd best pitcher this season. Traded for a Single A Minor League Prospect

Again, it has nothing to do with Anderson Espinosa, it has everything to do with the fact that he was a Top 15 prospect. A Top 5 prospect and a Top 50 prospect basically landed you Chris Sale, but you move a Top 15 prospect 1 for 1 for a career journeyman? I'm sorry that is an overpayment. I don't care what Pomeranz did in half a season last year, I don't care what he did this season. You could have, and should have, gotten Pomeranz for less, or been able to move Espinosa for more. Yes, Pomeranz was a very good acquisition, but in typical DD fashion, it was another prospect overpayment. So yes, now that it's played out, Espinosa has had some issues, it looks as a 1v1 for a clear win for the Red Sox. But does that mean you got the most value? That's my problem with most of these deals.