Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

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rodfromcranston
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby rodfromcranston » 1 month ago

So, tonight, the great Max Scherzer
gets batted around on in relief.
There aren't many Madison Bumgarners, who
become Supermen in the clutch.
So many big time pitchers getting rocked
in these playoffs.
Clayton Kershaw is widely regarded as the best pitcher in
baseball, hyped as being better than
Sandy Koufax (yeah, right).
Kershaw has 25 complete games in his career.
Koufax had 27 complete games in each of his last two seasons.
Warren Spahn at age 40, had 21 CGs and 267 innings,21 wins,
age 41, 22 CG and 262 innings, 18 wins. age 42, 22 CG 259 innings, 23 wins.
Roll those numbers around the next time the announcer mentions a pitch count.
That was before pitchers became glass dolls, with pitch counts.
Anyway, Kershaw has a 4.63 ERA in his 19 post
season games.
So, I guess he wouldn't be worth any kind of prospects
in a trade, if the Dodgers lose their minds?
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rjsuperfly66
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby rjsuperfly66 » 1 month ago

rodfromcranston wrote:So, I guess he wouldn't be worth any kind of prospects
in a trade, if the Dodgers lose their minds?


Rod, please stop twisting my/our words.
People aren't saying you shouldn't trade prospects.
They (I) are saying you probably shouldn't trade all of your prospects.
They (I) are also saying that you shouldn't overpay on a return just because they are "prospects" and may never make an impact in the league.
Further, if they evaluate a prospect and think there is not a positional fit (Margot) or they might not have the stuff needed (Espinosa), they should not be given away for $.75 on the dollar.
That's it -- when the Red Sox lose most of it's current core in 2 years and the only things they are left with several highly inflated contracts and barely able to fill a roster because of Henry's instructions on the luxury tax, it's going to be an awesome time!!
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rambone 78
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby rambone 78 » 1 month ago

True, the Sox are going to have to overpay to keep their core after the next 2 years....if not then they can forget staying competitive with the Yanks....what a difference from just a little while ago when the Yanks had nothing on the farm and the Sox were loaded.
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Shaolin Swat
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby Shaolin Swat » 1 month ago

For the record, below are the top 20 ranked players in the Red Sox Minor League System on the day that Dave Dombrowski was hired and what has happened to them since then. Apologies in advance for the formatting issues, not sure how to include a table in here. Since he was hired, the Red Sox have traded 11 of their top 20 prospects, including 5 of their top 7. The issue isn't necessarily that these players were traded, but that the organization has not been able to replenish the minor league system with quality prospects or build this team into a championship contender after the trades.

(Rank) Player
(1) Yoan Moncada Traded - Chris Sale (#2 Prospect in Baseball)
(2) Rafael Devers Still in Organization (#18 Prospect in Baseball)
(3) Anderson Espinoza Traded - Drew Pomeranz (#19 Prospect in Baseball)
(4) Manuel Margot Traded - Craig Kimbrel (#24 Prospect in Baseball)
(5) Andrew Benintendi Still in Organization (#1 Prospect in Baseball)
(6) Javier Guerra Traded - Craig Kimbrel (#52 Prospect in Baseball)
(7) Michael Kopech Traded - Chris Sale (#32 Prospect in Baseball)
(8) Brian Johnson Still in Organization (#82 Prospect in Baseball - 2015)
(9) Sam Travis Still in Organization (Outside of Top 100 Prospects)
(10) Deven Marrero Still in Organization (Outside of Top 100 Prospects)
(11) Michael Chavis Still in Organization (Outside of Top 100 Prospects)
(12) Luis Alexander Basabe Traded - Chris Sale (Outside of Top 100 Prospects)
(13) Logan Allen Traded - Craig Kimbrel (Outside of Top 100 Prospects)
(14) Trey Ball Still in Organization (#89 Prospect in Baseball - 2014)
(15) Wendell Rijo Traded - Aaron Hill (Outside of Top 100 Prospects)
(16) Nick Longhi Traded - International Signing Bonus Slot (Outside of Top 100 Prospects)
(17) Marco Hernandez Still in Organization (Outside of Top 100 Prospects)
(18) Mauricio Dubon Traded - Tyler Thornburg (Outside of Top 100 Prospects)
(19) Pat Light Traded - Fernando Abad (Outside of Top 100 Prospects)
(20) Teddy Stankiewicz Still in Organization (Outside of Top 100 Prospects)

*Travis Shaw Non-Ranked because he exhausted his prospect status by appearing in 65 games during 2015 season
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NYGFan_Section208
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby NYGFan_Section208 » 1 month ago

Right, it is more about the re-stock than the trading. That list shows it.
Of the 20 listed:
--9 are still in the org
--6 involved in the Kimbrel/Sale deals. Most would trade prospects all day long for guys of that caliber
--4 are not even Top 100 prospects...who cares?
--1 was traded for Pomeranz (basis for endless debate)

So...it looks like there's maybe one deal that people could question. I don't think so, but some do, and that's fine.
But, like swat says, it really appears to be more about failure to replenish than "trading away all those awesome prospects for 'not enough'"....
If anything, this almost makes it seem like they should be trading more prospects....as opposed to ""DD traded away all the good prospects and didn't get enough"

Nicely pulled together list!
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby ramster » 1 month ago

Agree, with 208, nicely put together list SSwat,

Looking at who was given up it appears the Red Sox got a great deal for only 1 prospect whereas Sox gave up 1st,7th and 12th ranked guys for Sale and 4th,6th and 13th for Kimbrell.
Sox Gave up 3rd ranked guy for Pomeranz . Plus, Espinosa did not play in 2017 and will not play in 2018 either.



Chris Sale Trade:
(1) Yoan Moncada Traded - Chris Sale (#2 Prospect in Baseball)
(7) Michael Kopech Traded - Chris Sale (#32 Prospect in Baseball)
(12) Luis Alexander Basabe Traded - Chris Sale (Outside of Top 100 Prospects)
Victor Diaz

Craig Kimbrell Trade:
(4) Manuel Margot Traded - Craig Kimbrel (#24 Prospect in Baseball)
(6) Javier Guerra Traded - Craig Kimbrel (#52 Prospect in Baseball)
13) Logan Allen Traded - Craig Kimbrel (Outside of Top 100 Prospects)
Carlos Asuage

Drew Pomeranz Trade:
(3) Anderson Espinoza Traded - Drew Pomeranz (#19 Prospect in Baseball)

(2) Rafael Devers Still in Organization (#18 Prospect in Baseball)
(5) Andrew Benintendi Still in Organization (#1 Prospect in Baseball)

(8) Brian Johnson Still in Organization (#82 Prospect in Baseball - 2015)
(9) Sam Travis Still in Organization (Outside of Top 100 Prospects)
(10) Deven Marrero Still in Organization (Outside of Top 100 Prospects)
(11) Michael Chavis Still in Organization (Outside of Top 100 Prospects)
(14) Trey Ball Still in Organization (#89 Prospect in Baseball - 2014)
(15) Wendell Rijo Traded - Aaron Hill (Outside of Top 100 Prospects)
(16) Nick Longhi Traded - International Signing Bonus Slot (Outside of Top 100 Prospects)
(17) Marco Hernandez Still in Organization (Outside of Top 100 Prospects)
(18) Mauricio Dubon Traded - Tyler Thornburg (Outside of Top 100 Prospects)
(19) Pat Light Traded - Fernando Abad (Outside of Top 100 Prospects)
(20) Teddy Stankiewicz Still in Organization (Outside of Top 100 Prospects)

Current Top 20 Prospects for Red Sox
(1) Jay Groome LHP
(2) Michael Chavis 3B
(3) Bryan Mata RHP
(4) Tanner Houck RHP
(5) Daniel Flores C
(6) Sam Travis 1B
(7) Josh Ockimey1B
(8) Cole Brannen CF
(9) Mike Shawaryn RHP
(10) Alex Scherff RHP
(11) Jalen Beeks LHP
(12) Brian Johnson LHP
(13) CJ Chatham SS
(14) Bobby Dalbec 3B
(15) Darwinzon Hernandez LHP
(16) Roniel Raudes RHP
(17) Jake Thompson RHP
(18) Danny Diaz 3B
(19) Tzu-Wei Lin UT
(20) Travis LakinsRHP,
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ramster
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby ramster » 1 month ago

Current Sox Prospects Detail:

http://www.soxprospects.com/
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Shaolin Swat
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby Shaolin Swat » 1 month ago

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-re ... ernational

Also worth noting that the Red Sox have had the contracts of several international free agents voided & had been prohibited from signing international free agents from July 2016 through July 1, 2017. This will likely also have an impact on the depth of the minor league system in the coming years.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby rodfromcranston » 1 month ago

Bobby Dalbec was considered by many, to be the top power hitting
prospect in the Sox system.
6'4" 225lbs. bats right handed.22 years old.
From Arizona State, where he played 3rd base, 1st base, and relief pitcher.
Had a great season in 2016. Hit .386 with a 1.101 OPS.
Unfortunately, a significant injury took its toll this season.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby rjsuperfly66 » 1 month ago

NYG, the concern has nothing to do with simply trading prospects. It's the fact that you have X amount of valuable prospects and the Sox rifled through them so fast that there was no possible way to replenish the system. Think about it, all the prospect trades basically came within 12 months of each other. In that time, there was one MLB draft (and this summer a second one), and because the team has been contending, it's not like they've been able to sell off top players for prospects to refill (which I think we all agree with). And I think that also interconnects to prior arguments because I think many of us would rather trade prospects #14 & #18 for someone like Pomeranz who had one half of one good season than #3. But they basically blew all of the less immediate talented prospects out of town for a 2-3 year window and kept the more immediate ones but now don't have much leverage to make a trade ... I think the Sale deal was a very good, fair deal, the Pomeranz deals and probably the Kimbrel deal were clear overpayments, and it's all compounded because the system has been gutted by all of these trades ... The Red Sox team we have all grown to love should be able to accomplish a draft and development system + being able to pay for guys in free agency to fill gaps. They shouldn't be spending most of their prospects on players and crying that they are approaching the luxury tax. From Cherington or DD, they have been AWFUL at free agent deals -- from Hanley, Sandoval, and Price, I believe those are the last of the big 3, a complete waste of over $400 million (at least to this point). By 2020, they are going to have to make big decisions on Porcello, Hanley, Kimbrel, Sale, Pomeranz, and Boegarts and in 2021 on JBJ and Betts. That's 2-3 more years. At that point I don't know how they are able to survive.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby NYGFan_Section208 » 1 month ago

Gutted by all these trades??? Maybe not well-stocked, but gutted 'by these trades' seems a reach...13 of the 20 are in the org, or were not really top prospects. 6 for Sale and Kimbrel...1 for Pomeranz. Would venture that a lot of teams would take Kimbrel/Sale for their top 6 prospects....
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ramster
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby ramster » 1 month ago

So would if you could make the trades over again would you do these 3 again?

For me
Pomeranz - abso freaken lutely. All Star level season. Sox #2 Pitcher now and headed into Spring Training, Espinosa out this year and next - at least.
Sale - Yes
Kimbrell - Yes but a weaker yer

But bottom line I would make all 3 again. 2 Best Starting Pitchers on the Team and the Best Reliever. Take those 3 away and Sox are in big trouble

Chris Sale Trade:
(1) Yoan Moncada Traded - Chris Sale (#2 Prospect in Baseball)
(7) Michael Kopech Traded - Chris Sale (#32 Prospect in Baseball)
(12) Luis Alexander Basabe Traded - Chris Sale (Outside of Top 100 Prospects)
Victor Diaz

Craig Kimbrell Trade:
(4) Manuel Margot Traded - Craig Kimbrel (#24 Prospect in Baseball)
(6) Javier Guerra Traded - Craig Kimbrel (#52 Prospect in Baseball)
13) Logan Allen Traded - Craig Kimbrel (Outside of Top 100 Prospects)
Carlos Asuage

Drew Pomeranz Trade:
(3) Anderson Espinoza Traded - Drew Pomeranz (#19 Prospect in Baseball)
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rambone 78
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby rambone 78 » 1 month ago

Red Sox went the route the Yankees did a while ago....decimate the farm to win now.....not working so far.

In NY and Boston, if you don't win the whole enchilada, you're a bum.....like it or not.

Imo the Yanks are closer to winning it all than the Sox, especially a couple years from now.

And that's not even counting this season....which from the Yanks' perspective has been a year or 2 early.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby NYGFan_Section208 » 1 month ago

Yes, the yankmes are closer...which sux, but facts are facts... desperately need a guy that can mash...
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby TruePoint » 1 month ago

Also have to consider that when the Sox farm system was built by Epstein and Hoyer and Cherrington, the draft rules were a lot different than what they are now because of the slotting rules regarding signing bonuses. It used to be that the best prospects could slide to the Red Sox and Yankees because they could meet the high bonus demands and the Rays and Royals wouldn't. The players have leverage in baseball because they can opt to go to college and re-enter the draft later. There is also the international scouting and development component.

The big issue with Dombrowski, at least for me, is not only that he has a career long record of being a drunken spendthrift with organizational assets (i.e., prospects and controllable players) but he also has almost no notable draft and development success over the course of 40 years as a baseball executive. He's almost CFL-ish in his approach of continuously selling out to stay good enough to not get fired THIS year while having no long term plan or demonstrated vision for high-level success. Winning the division and getting blown out of the playoffs after 3 or 4 mostly uncompetitive games is the MLB equivalent of winning 20 games and going to the NIT.

Sure, trading most of the value out of his farm system has maybe worked in the micro if you're just evaluating these trades in a vacuum - the guys he's brought back have helped you be what you are. But in the macro, if what you are isn't worth a shit and you've exhausted all your avenues for improving your team to get there, what good have you done?
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby ramster » 1 month ago

Trades for prospects gets a lot of discussion, always have in baseball and all sports.
What gets less discussion is the efficient or inefficient use of funds that also has a huge impact:
Red Sox inability to keep Jon Lester
$217 million to David Price
Hanley Ramirez
Pablo Sandoval
Rusney Castillo
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby rjsuperfly66 » 1 month ago

NYGFan_Section208 wrote:Yes, the yankmes are closer...which sux, but facts are facts... desperately need a guy that can mash...


The Yankees noticed they were in the midst of a time when they needed to rebuild and they went all-in on achieving that. They made some big mistakes in 2013 (Ellsbury and McCann) and very quickly altered philosophy. The Red Sox should have learned from those mistakes but made the same ones, only slightly more destructive. After a disappointing 2014, they made very risky free agent moves for guys like Hanley and Sandoval, and a year later overpaid to try to pry Price away from STL. The Yankees biggest free agent moves in the last 3 years was on Andrew Bailey and Aroldis Chapman. Any major roster moves came basically via trade or from their farm system, and they also weren't afraid to trade key pieces for more prospects. Last year the Yankees blew it up while 3 games over .500 and only 4 games out of the playoffs. They traded Chapman, Miller, Beltran, and Nova, trades that brought them back a net 10 prospects, a few of them among the top of the MLB. The amazing thing is that for all of the young talent on the Yankees active roster, they still 6 prospects in their system that are top 100, including one major one in Torres.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby NYGFan_Section208 » 4 weeks ago

So...here we are again...sucked into a baseball game way too late on a work night....but, what can ya do..?
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby TruePoint » 4 weeks ago

Wow. Now Springer. This game is wild.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby NYGFan_Section208 » 4 weeks ago

Culberson....who?? the craziness continues.....
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby Puck Frovidence » 4 weeks ago

This is nuts. All due respect to people who disagree and are wrong, but baseball postseason is the fucking best.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby RhowdyRam02 » 4 weeks ago

March Madness and the Stanley Cup playoffs are both better
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby TruePoint » 4 weeks ago

If I am correct that the Stanley Cup is hockey then I can say it is at best irrelevant.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby NYGFan_Section208 » 4 weeks ago

Not disappointed with the Cora hire...but would have preferred Girardi....
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby rodfromcranston » 4 weeks ago

TruePoint wrote:If I am correct that the Stanley Cup is hockey then I can say it is at best irrelevant.


Just an asinine statement.
Pretending you don't know what the Stanley Cup is,
makes you look uniformed on a tRUMPian scale.
Just because you don't like hockey, doesn't make the
Stanley Cup irrelevant.
Hockey is a huge international sport, and the Stanley Cup is
the biggest prize in the sport.
RR2 is right. There's nothing like playoff hockey in intensity or excitement.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby NYGFan_Section208 » 4 weeks ago

I watch some, but not a ton of hockey during the year, but they really do have the playoffs down right. As intense and exciting as pro playoffs get...
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby TruePoint » 4 weeks ago

rodfromcranston wrote:
TruePoint wrote:If I am correct that the Stanley Cup is hockey then I can say it is at best irrelevant.


Just an asinine statement.
Pretending you don't know what the Stanley Cup is,
makes you look uniformed on a tRUMPian scale.
Just because you don't like hockey, doesn't make the
Stanley Cup irrelevant.
Hockey is a huge international sport, and the Stanley Cup is
the biggest prize in the sport.
RR2 is right. There's nothing like playoff hockey in intensity or excitement.


Image

I actually don't even hate the Stanley Cup playoffs if the Bruins are playing or I have some other reason to root for a particular outcome. I wouldn't say there's nothing like it, though. I think a close late-inning playoff baseball game is at least as exciting as the 3rd period of a playoff hockey game, and World Cup soccer is better than both of those in terms of pure edge-of-your-seat, don't-know-when-the-big-moment-is-coming perspective.
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rodfromcranston
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby rodfromcranston » 4 weeks ago

Soccer is as boring as watching paint dry.
Never got why people riot over this stuff.
Must be the booze.
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TruePoint
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby TruePoint » 4 weeks ago

It's essentially the same sport as hockey only it is played with the common sport object of a "ball" and not a plastic disc, it requires the common human activity of running rather than weirdly sliding around on a piece of narrow metal, you don't need to wear silly clothing to do it, and it's not (normally) as cold. Silly to hear someone defend hockey and criticize soccer, especially someone who listed as a selling point for soccer that it's big internationally.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby Ramulous » 4 weeks ago

I enjoy watching soccer's World Cup as much as any playoffs there are......with the Stanley Cup I am more into it when the Bruins are in the playoffs...but it is an exciting tournament...any game where the next goal, run or point can win is very exciting....
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby NYGFan_Section208 » 4 weeks ago

the awesome thing about hockey playoffs is.....there can be end to end fast action and then boom...it's over.... nothing else like it.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby rodfromcranston » 3 weeks ago

"Silly to hear someone defend hockey and criticize soccer, especially someone who listed as a selling point for soccer that it's big internationally."
Wow!
My point was that YOU said hockey was irrelevant.
That's why I brought up it's international interest. Duh.
Hey, if you love watching some skeletons in gym shorts
running up and down a field for hours, more power to you
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby rjsuperfly66 » 3 weeks ago

I never got the hockey/soccer comparisons some make.
Because they are low-scoring and feature goals and a goalie?
Hockey is fast-paced, end-to-end, truly can score at any notice.
Soccer is much more technical, often much slower-paced, it's no one's fault they play with their feet on a much bigger surface.
Costa Rica in the 2014 World Cup played in 5 matches and put 18 shots on target.
10 shots on target is almost an elite output in a soccer match.
That's not to take away from soccer or the World Cup, but soccer and hockey are both unique sports, at least IMHO.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby hrstrat57 » 3 weeks ago

Hockey hate is the Truepoint jam....

ha ha he got youz guyz good!

:)
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby TruePoint » 3 weeks ago

I wouldn't hate hockey if it would stay in its lane and admit it was a niche sport. I do find it kind of fun to watch a high stakes hockey game (Bruins playoffs runs and US Olympic hockey when they go deep), but the sport itself is unlike all the other sports and kind of weird and silly.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby Puck Frovidence » 3 weeks ago

TruePoint wrote:I wouldn't hate hockey if it would stay in its lane and admit it was a niche sport. I do find it kind of fun to watch a high stakes hockey game (Bruins playoffs runs and US Olympic hockey when they go deep), but the sport itself is unlike all the other sports and kind of weird and silly.



:roll:
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby TruePoint » 3 weeks ago

Happy anniversary

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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby NYGFan_Section208 » 3 weeks ago

Rather interesting WS tilt tonight...I like it when the game goes back and forth on gomers.

I can't believe the pop that Altuve fellow has...amazing....kinda reminds one of when Pedey was good...
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby NYGFan_Section208 » 3 weeks ago

Plus...we have the added bonus of big trees blowing down from the storm around us and power going off and on, just for extra excitement. Good times!
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ramster
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby ramster » 2 weeks ago

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Shaolin Swat
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby Shaolin Swat » 2 weeks ago

Sad news in the baseball world, as former pitcher Roy Halladay was killed in a plane crash in Florida.

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/2133 ... ulf-mexico
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