Re: The Patriot Way
Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:18 pm
Legal analysts are saying now that the NFL will win this case. What a joke this whole thing has been.
You mean like "can't"?ATPTourFan wrote:I love it when Truepoint uses fancy latin words in italics.
My understanding is they remanded back to Berman. Can he say fine, but now I overturn the suspension on other grounds or is he bound to uphold the suspension and the remanding is just a formality?TruePoint wrote:From my professional, totally unbiased perspective, Judge Parker's opinion was outright garbage. Too bad, I don't know what avenues Brady realistically has left. I thought Berman's opinion was legally solid and better argued than Parker's, but unfortunately the Court of Appeals heard this case de novo, so they didn't have to confront Berman's decision head on. Basically, the Court of Appeals found that under the CBA, Goodell can do whatever he wants and the court is in no position to say whether he was right or wrong, and therefore the court can't overturn the suspension. That is a very questionable conclusion, in my opinion, but I don't think it presents an important enough policy question to be given cert by the SCOTUS.
They could have remanded it back to him requiring him to rehear the case or reissue a decision but requiring him to accept a finding that differed from what he initially found. But, in this case, they remanded "with instructions for the district court to confirm the arbitration award."RhowdyRam02 wrote:My understanding is they remanded back to Berman. Can he say fine, but now I overturn the suspension on other grounds or is he bound to uphold the suspension and the remanding is just a formality?TruePoint wrote:From my professional, totally unbiased perspective, Judge Parker's opinion was outright garbage. Too bad, I don't know what avenues Brady realistically has left. I thought Berman's opinion was legally solid and better argued than Parker's, but unfortunately the Court of Appeals heard this case de novo, so they didn't have to confront Berman's decision head on. Basically, the Court of Appeals found that under the CBA, Goodell can do whatever he wants and the court is in no position to say whether he was right or wrong, and therefore the court can't overturn the suspension. That is a very questionable conclusion, in my opinion, but I don't think it presents an important enough policy question to be given cert by the SCOTUS.
Yes, they can request a review of the whole Appeals court (likely) or they can request a review of the Supreme Court which would be a long shot.ramfan85 wrote:Are there any appeals left?
Oh I 100% believe they tampered with the footballs. But I don't care, and think it had absolutely no bearing on the outcome of any games and the fact that it has turned into this big of a shit storm is ridiculous.ATPTourFan wrote:We can argue about the legal aspects all day, but does anyone today still believe there was actually any football tampering in the first place? All the circumstantial evidence cannot overcome the biggest fact of all -- there was nothing abnormal about the Patriots footballs that cannot be easily explained, and importantly, REPLICATED by science.
You do not strike me as the type of person who doesn't believe in science. What's up?adam914 wrote:Oh I 100% believe they tampered with the footballs. But I don't care, and think it had absolutely no bearing on the outcome of any games and the fact that it has turned into this big of a shit storm is ridiculous.ATPTourFan wrote:We can argue about the legal aspects all day, but does anyone today still believe there was actually any football tampering in the first place? All the circumstantial evidence cannot overcome the biggest fact of all -- there was nothing abnormal about the Patriots footballs that cannot be easily explained, and importantly, REPLICATED by science.
This is what I thought happened as well, and this explanation fits all of the information that came out after the fact.RAM67 wrote:I don't believe there was a conspiracy to tamper with the balls, but I think there is a possibility Macanally (?) may have adjusted over inflated balls to avoid the Jets debacle, by bringing them to accepted 12.5 levels. He may not have thought he was doing anything wrong.
You are correct there for sure in that I am not the type of person who doesn't believe in science, but from what I have seen, while the science behind it may prove that it is possible to replicate what happened it doesn't necessarily prove that it is exactly what happened in this case. In my opinion, the behavior of some of the Patriots personnel involved after the fact tells a lot about there being something more going on.TruePoint wrote:You do not strike me as the type of person who doesn't believe in science. What's up?adam914 wrote:Oh I 100% believe they tampered with the footballs. But I don't care, and think it had absolutely no bearing on the outcome of any games and the fact that it has turned into this big of a shit storm is ridiculous.ATPTourFan wrote:We can argue about the legal aspects all day, but does anyone today still believe there was actually any football tampering in the first place? All the circumstantial evidence cannot overcome the biggest fact of all -- there was nothing abnormal about the Patriots footballs that cannot be easily explained, and importantly, REPLICATED by science.
Innocent until proven guilty, I think, only pertains to criminal law? This is something completely different, called - rich people problems. Rich people associations make up their own rules..until they don't like the rules they've made...and then they engage the 'real' legal system and fire up their own multi-million dollar fuss-fests.Rhodymob05 wrote:Whatever happened to innocent until PROVEN guilty? ...which Tom has not been, Even if you're anti-New England Patriots, you must admit this whole thing is BS.
This way of thinking is working in reverse -- trying to find loose fitting circumstantial evidence to support a claim that is in essence unsubstantiated or straight debunked by independently verifiable science.adam914 wrote:You are correct there for sure in that I am not the type of person who doesn't believe in science, but from what I have seen, while the science behind it may prove that it is possible to replicate what happened it doesn't necessarily prove that it is exactly what happened in this case. In my opinion, the behavior of some of the Patriots personnel involved after the fact tells a lot about there being something more going on.TruePoint wrote:You do not strike me as the type of person who doesn't believe in science. What's up?
Look all I am saying is that there is a way that innocent people act and a way that guilty people act when accused of wrongdoing, and in my opinion some of the Patriots personnel acted very strangely for people who claim to have done nothing wrong. I understand that for you Pats fans this is a topic that makes you very passionate and you feel very strongly about. When it comes down to it, as I said earlier, I don't care all that much and think it had absolutely no bearing on the outcome of any games and the fact that it has turned into such a big deal is pretty dumb.ATPTourFan wrote:This way of thinking is working in reverse -- trying to find loose fitting circumstantial evidence to support a claim that is in essence unsubstantiated or straight debunked by independently verifiable science.adam914 wrote:You are correct there for sure in that I am not the type of person who doesn't believe in science, but from what I have seen, while the science behind it may prove that it is possible to replicate what happened it doesn't necessarily prove that it is exactly what happened in this case. In my opinion, the behavior of some of the Patriots personnel involved after the fact tells a lot about there being something more going on.TruePoint wrote:You do not strike me as the type of person who doesn't believe in science. What's up?
Normally, there is a verifiable "Crime" such as someone robbing a bank or a murder or some other clear breaking of the rules. Then you'd try to find all the evidence leading to the crime. In the case of Deflategate, the crime itself doesn't exist, but many love conspiracies and look for loosely fitting circumstantial evidence to build some case to support the non-crime.
Had the NFL not been completely ignorant of science, even their sloppy half time measurements would have made sense the day of the game. Instead, they WERE completely ignorant of science and made up their mind based on ignorance and then worked backwards to find any kind of evidence of wrongdoing.
There was no wrongdoing. Even if the NFL wanted to convince its ignorant leadership that there was, the penalty should be in line with other equipment violations where players/clubs have been advised of the penalty/punishment schedule.
By the way, there is factual evidence of wrongdoing by the NFL since the Colts game that further supports this entire thing is manufactured. Compared to whatever behavior you are referring to by the Patriots following the AFC Championship game, the NFL's actions can be proven to indicate a willingness to mislead, misrepresent, and straight up lie.
I don't disagree with this. However, this is pretty much all the evidence the NFL has, which is to say they have no evidence whatsoever. And other teams are (finally) realizing what this means and panicking. Because it's becoming abundantly clear that Goodell can just decide he doesn't like [insert owner/team/player] and cook up a witch hunt to punish him/them. This ruling has granted him unilateral power to do whatever he wants.adam914 wrote:Look all I am saying is that there is a way that innocent people act and a way that guilty people act when accused of wrongdoing, and in my opinion some of the Patriots personnel acted very strangely for people who claim to have done nothing wrong.
Right, but that's the thing about the NFL, they can basically do whatever the hell they want and get away with it. It's stupid, but that's the way it works. You're right that other teams are finally realizing what this means, but the owners have just as much culpability in letting it get to that point I think.SmartyBarrett wrote:I don't disagree with this. However, this is pretty much all the evidence the NFL has, which is to say they have no evidence whatsoever. And other teams are (finally) realizing what this means and panicking. Because it's becoming abundantly clear that Goodell can just decide he doesn't like [insert owner/team/player] and cook up a witch hunt to punish him/them. This ruling has granted him unilateral power to do whatever he wants.adam914 wrote:Look all I am saying is that there is a way that innocent people act and a way that guilty people act when accused of wrongdoing, and in my opinion some of the Patriots personnel acted very strangely for people who claim to have done nothing wrong.
The fact that the PSI could change - as noted by 'science' - does not 'straight debunk' the idea that those cheating (looking for an edge) Patriots didn't do something.... I wonder, if it were Joe Flacco or Ben R being accused, if Pat's fans would give a Pats arse....and, be talking about that cruel, lying, misleading NFL? Or, would they just be saying, 'yep, he did it...got caught...now he has to pay' ?ATPTourFan wrote:This way of thinking is working in reverse -- trying to find loose fitting circumstantial evidence to support a claim that is in essence unsubstantiated or straight debunked by independently verifiable science.adam914 wrote:You are correct there for sure in that I am not the type of person who doesn't believe in science, but from what I have seen, while the science behind it may prove that it is possible to replicate what happened it doesn't necessarily prove that it is exactly what happened in this case. In my opinion, the behavior of some of the Patriots personnel involved after the fact tells a lot about there being something more going on.TruePoint wrote:You do not strike me as the type of person who doesn't believe in science. What's up?
Normally, there is a verifiable "Crime" such as someone robbing a bank or a murder or some other clear breaking of the rules. Then you'd try to find all the evidence leading to the crime. In the case of Deflategate, the crime itself doesn't exist, but many love conspiracies and look for loosely fitting circumstantial evidence to build some case to support the non-crime.
Had the NFL not been completely ignorant of science, even their sloppy half time measurements would have made sense the day of the game. Instead, they WERE completely ignorant of science and made up their mind based on ignorance and then worked backwards to find any kind of evidence of wrongdoing.
There was no wrongdoing. Even if the NFL wanted to convince its ignorant leadership that there was, the penalty should be in line with other equipment violations where players/clubs have been advised of the penalty/punishment schedule.
By the way, there is factual evidence of wrongdoing by the NFL since the Colts game that further supports this entire thing is manufactured. Compared to whatever behavior you are referring to by the Patriots following the AFC Championship game, the NFL's actions can be proven to indicate a willingness to mislead, misrepresent, and straight up lie.
So we know what the footballs should have been measured at halftime based on repeatable, independently verifiable science. The NFL's own sloppy before-and-after measurements of Patriots footballs came to an average of 0.3psi per ball below the scientifically predicted level. That is well within the margin of error for such sloppy procedure pre-game and during the hasty halftime sting operation.NYGFan_Section208 wrote:The fact that the PSI could change - as noted by 'science' - does not 'straight debunk' the idea that those cheating (looking for an edge) Patriots didn't do something.... I wonder, if it were Joe Flacco or Ben R being accused, if Pat's fans would give a Pats arse....and, be talking about that cruel, lying, misleading NFL? Or, would they just be saying, 'yep, he did it...got caught...now he has to pay' ?ATPTourFan wrote:
This way of thinking is working in reverse -- trying to find loose fitting circumstantial evidence to support a claim that is in essence unsubstantiated or straight debunked by independently verifiable science.
Normally, there is a verifiable "Crime" such as someone robbing a bank or a murder or some other clear breaking of the rules. Then you'd try to find all the evidence leading to the crime. In the case of Deflategate, the crime itself doesn't exist, but many love conspiracies and look for loosely fitting circumstantial evidence to build some case to support the non-crime.
Had the NFL not been completely ignorant of science, even their sloppy half time measurements would have made sense the day of the game. Instead, they WERE completely ignorant of science and made up their mind based on ignorance and then worked backwards to find any kind of evidence of wrongdoing.
There was no wrongdoing. Even if the NFL wanted to convince its ignorant leadership that there was, the penalty should be in line with other equipment violations where players/clubs have been advised of the penalty/punishment schedule.
By the way, there is factual evidence of wrongdoing by the NFL since the Colts game that further supports this entire thing is manufactured. Compared to whatever behavior you are referring to by the Patriots following the AFC Championship game, the NFL's actions can be proven to indicate a willingness to mislead, misrepresent, and straight up lie.
Hi Adam, can you please give a few specifics that would bring us all closer to a level of certainty here and validate this unprecedented punishment?adam914 wrote:Look all I am saying is that there is a way that innocent people act and a way that guilty people act when accused of wrongdoing, and in my opinion some of the Patriots personnel acted very strangely for people who claim to have done nothing wrong. I understand that for you Pats fans this is a topic that makes you very passionate and you feel very strongly about. When it comes down to it, as I said earlier, I don't care all that much and think it had absolutely no bearing on the outcome of any games and the fact that it has turned into such a big deal is pretty dumb.
So they messed with the air in a couple footballs, who cares, it means nothing.
I don't think I ever said anything about the punishment being valid or ok at all. I've said from the start I think the whole thing is really stupid. I don't know if there are specifics that could bring anyone to a level of certainty about what happened. If there was, I am sure it would have been released by now. All I have said is that it is my opinion that some Patriots personnel acted very strange after the fact for people that were supposedly innocent of any wrongdoing. So in my opinion, there was likely something shady going on.ATPTourFan wrote:Hi Adam, can you please give a few specifics that would bring us all closer to a level of certainty here and validate this unprecedented punishment?adam914 wrote:Look all I am saying is that there is a way that innocent people act and a way that guilty people act when accused of wrongdoing, and in my opinion some of the Patriots personnel acted very strangely for people who claim to have done nothing wrong. I understand that for you Pats fans this is a topic that makes you very passionate and you feel very strongly about. When it comes down to it, as I said earlier, I don't care all that much and think it had absolutely no bearing on the outcome of any games and the fact that it has turned into such a big deal is pretty dumb.
So they messed with the air in a couple footballs, who cares, it means nothing.
Per your statement above, this had no outcome of any games YET this 4 game suspension and loss of draft picks certainly WILL have a real impact. How is that OK? You can't have it both ways. If your team was punished for nothing (and now we know it can be), are you saying you would just roll with it?
NYGFan_Section208 wrote:Just going to throw this out there - as a non-Pats fan...
Is Bill B the best coach of anything, anywhere, ever?
Nah, no need to risk getting hit by one of those big uglies, when he could win with me or you at qb...ramfan85 wrote:NYGFan_Section208 wrote:Just going to throw this out there - as a non-Pats fan...
Is Bill B the best coach of anything, anywhere, ever?
He's right up there. And, to show his versatility, next week he'll be playing quarterback.