The Patriot Way

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Re: The Patriot Way

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Re: The Patriot Way

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Drew continues to be the best
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Re: The Patriot Way

Unread post by rambone 78 »

Brady will appeal, and probably get 2 games instead of 4.

The other penalties aren't appealable. The loss of the draft picks are a real kick in the ass.....

Even if you think the penalties are excessive, the Pats really should think about playing by the rules.

Their history probably added to the severity of this....
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Re: The Patriot Way

Unread post by rjsuperfly66 »

Do we know that the Patriots did it? Of course not. But their hiding of witnesses and evidence is what caused perception to be what it is. If the Patriots were as transparent as possible, the league then doesn't have to leap to conclusions, or if they do they look foolish.

The rulebook also states that it's a minimum $25K fine. It specifically states discipline is included but not limited to a $25K fine. It's on page 35 of the report.

Overall, I thought the punishment was still a tad harsh, but was largely that way because the league thought the Patriots were obstructive in how witnesses were handled and largely acted. It would be interesting to see how an independent arbitor saw it.

League clearly runs on a different system then the legal system.
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Re: The Patriot Way

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rambone 78 wrote:Brady will appeal, and probably get 2 games instead of 4.

The other penalties aren't appealable. The loss of the draft picks are a real kick in the ass.....

Even if you think the penalties are excessive, the Pats really should think about playing by the rules.

Their history probably added to the severity of this....
You've said this a couple times. There's literally zero proof they didn't play by the rules, and based on the head refs' best recollection, the balls weren't underinflated at all. I get that your posting style is just to say things over and over, but that doesn't add relevance or accuracy to what you post.
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Re: The Patriot Way

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rjsuperfly66 wrote:Do we know that the Patriots did it? Of course not. But their hiding of witnesses and evidence is what caused perception to be what it is. If the Patriots were as transparent as possible, the league then doesn't have to leap to conclusions, or if they do they look foolish.

The rulebook also states that it's a minimum $25K fine. It specifically states discipline is included but not limited to a $25K fine. It's on page 35 of the report.

Overall, I thought the punishment was still a tad harsh, but was largely that way because the league thought the Patriots were obstructive in how witnesses were handled and largely acted. It would be interesting to see how an independent arbitor saw it.

League clearly runs on a different system then the legal system.
RJ, see the article smarty linked to. The issue is that nobody should ever participate in their own execution. You have absolutely zero ethical or moral obligation to rat on yourself. If your employer is investigating you for something, whether you did it or not, you should never EVER cooperate. Even if you could exonerate yourself and you have no qualms with blowing your own right to privacy, it sets a terrible precedent where you can raise allegations against someone and shift the burden to them to disprove them. Yes, the NFL is not bound by the standards of the legal system but the principles that those standard represent are universal, IMO.
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Re: The Patriot Way

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The ball person that the team wasn't forthcoming with? He was interviewed on four separate occasions and turned over his cell phone. And he was willing to speak with investigators a fifth time by phone.

And Tom Brady? He submitted to a thorough interview where he answered every question, and that's according to Ted Wells himself. He didn't turn over his cell phone. And frankly anyone that would turn over their cell phone, even if they're innocent, especially if they're innocent, is an idiot. You don't turn over your personal cell phone ever, especially to a league like the NFL who doesn't have that right at all according to the CBA, has no subpoena power, and can't help but leak every thing they have access to.
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Re: The Patriot Way

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5th interview? Wel documented the Pats refused to allow the interview, the first since the league had the text messages.

Brady also didn't have to turn over his phone, he could hold his phone and reveal the conversations inquired about.

If you don't assist an investigation you can't complain when people try to connect the dots against you. If you did nothing, slam dunk show them what they want and move on.

But the Pats were caught in far too many lies throughout the process. Start with McNally and move down the line.
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Re: The Patriot Way

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The entire investigation reeks of confirmation bias. The Pats had some "history" with SpyGate, so the league assumed cheating right out of the gate and only gathered facts which supported their assumption. Even as a Sox fan, I'll admit that this isn't unlike the A-Rod situation, who had a history of steroid use. MLB wanted to make an example of him and went WAY over the top in their discipline.
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Re: The Patriot Way

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That's the one thing I do agree with, an element of this did seem repeat offender-ish.

However, I think Pats fans (like the team itself) has tried flipped and turned themselves so much into a pretzel, they can't even recollect the details of the report or the investigation.

On McNally, I think it's also important to note that while he did interview 4 times, 3 of those were with NFL investigators before the Wells investigation began. 1 was with Wells before the texts were known, and there was no follow-up allowed.

I do think there are some holes in the report, but I think Patriots fans are barking up all the wrong trees trying to find ways to indict the NFL.

Robert Kraft has been one of the most vocal supporters of Goddell since he took office. While I often question league agendas, this is one where I have trouble buying "The NFL is out to screw the Patriots." If that was the case, why bury the Spygate videos after 3 championships, only to try to prevent a 4th? Seems a slightly bizarre take to me.
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Re: The Patriot Way

Unread post by ramfan85 »

Just when you think you've heard everything there is to hear on this subject, along comes this.
Someone on the west coast has started a fund to help pay the penalty costs for Kraft. They already raised over $12K.
This should really help, since Kraft's worth is estimated to only be $4B.
I guess some people will give $ for anything. Why don't I know people like that?
Maybe I'll start a fund: "Save the 85 Fund.

I'm really getting tired of seeing ESPN rolling out all these former players, who hate the Pats anyway, to take shots at the Pats.
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Re: The Patriot Way

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rjsuperfly66 wrote:That's the one thing I do agree with, an element of this did seem repeat offender-ish.

However, I think Pats fans (like the team itself) has tried flipped and turned themselves so much into a pretzel, they can't even recollect the details of the report or the investigation.

On McNally, I think it's also important to note that while he did interview 4 times, 3 of those were with NFL investigators before the Wells investigation began. 1 was with Wells before the texts were known, and there was no follow-up allowed.

I do think there are some holes in the report, but I think Patriots fans are barking up all the wrong trees trying to find ways to indict the NFL.

Robert Kraft has been one of the most vocal supporters of Goddell since he took office. While I often question league agendas, this is one where I have trouble buying "The NFL is out to screw the Patriots." If that was the case, why bury the Spygate videos after 3 championships, only to try to prevent a 4th? Seems a slightly bizarre take to me.
This whole thing is a rather absurd take. This wasn't about confirmation bias as much as it was about the targeting an unpopular victim to score political points by an even more unpopular commissioner. The alleged infraction at the heart of this thing (which I think the Patriots are guilty of and want no part of defending them against) was an incredibly minor and inconsequential equipment violation. Similar previous violations by other clubs have resulted in fines of between $0 and $20,000, but in this case the League decided to make a capital case out of a fine-worthy misdemeanor - embarrassing the League, creating a media circus and burning through a few million dollars in the process. And in the end, they punished the team and its star player in a way that is totally untethered to the severity of the actual underlying infraction because the team its player dared to stand up to their railroading and refused to take their mistreatment lying down or participate in their own execution.

This is an insane way to operate, and everybody save for the most hopelessly broken automatons resigned to subjugating their selves to the corporate monolith should applaud the Patriots defiance, rather than condemn them for it.
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Re: The Patriot Way

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TruePoint wrote:This wasn't about confirmation bias as much as it was about the targeting an unpopular victim to score political points by an even more unpopular commissioner.
Absolutely. Targeting. Confirmation bias. Potato po-tah-to. Either way, I'm in agreement with most that the Pats "more likely than not" did something to the footballs. But considering the fact that there are holes in the so-called evidence that you can drive a truck through, this punishment does not fit the crime whatsoever -- repeat offender or not.
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Re: The Patriot Way

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Looks like Brady is putting together his own "Dream Team" of lawyers to fight this thing.

I would guess the next time Roger screws up, he won't be getting much support from Foxboro.
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Re: The Patriot Way

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SmartyBarrett wrote:
TruePoint wrote:This wasn't about confirmation bias as much as it was about the targeting an unpopular victim to score political points by an even more unpopular commissioner.
Absolutely. Targeting. Confirmation bias. Potato po-tah-to. Either way, I'm in agreement with most that the Pats "more likely than not" did something to the footballs. But considering the fact that there are holes in the so-called evidence that you can drive a truck through, this punishment does not fit the crime whatsoever -- repeat offender or not.
I think we 99% agree. Maybe it is semantics, but I think targeting the Patriots is a step beyond confirmation bias - which I see as an ethically benign subconscious phenomenon, whereas targeting is a conscious act of vindictiveness. But anyways, yes, I think we coming out at the same place.
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Re: The Patriot Way

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TP, I think if the Pats came clean or were easily caught, this thing would have been over months ago with significantly lighter infractions. I think what happened is that the committee thought the Patriots were keeping keep away with certain things to prevent a) more evidence coming out or b) more people being implicated, and the league got pissed and gave them the finger. All the other infractions you mentioned were "Yes we did it, here's your evidence, punish us." This was the polar opposite. This was "We didn't do it, and we are going to stonewall you where necessary because that's our right." And the end of the day, the league can and did say, F you. I personally don't believe they were punished for the crime, which is the difference in our opinions. Some people believe the Pats declined McNally's second interview because they thought McNally was going to see all the evidence and potentially rat.

While I agree the punishment to be excessive, I also believe it will be lightened by appeal (at least in regards to Brady's suspension). I'm with Felger, let's bring this to court. Let's have everyone's phones subpeoned. Let's get McNally back on the stand, and let's see Brady's texts. Let's expose the holes in the NFL's report, and the missing links from the Patriots defense. Let's let both parties hurl insults at each other. That would be so much fun. And I'm dead serious about that. I'm sure it'll never reach such levels (arbitors would be first line of decision-making), but it would be so much fun.
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Re: The Patriot Way

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rj - one area where we agree is that the League should have taken the halftime measurements as conclusive proof of tampering and issued a $25k fine against the organization on the Tuesday following the AFC championship game and put this whole thing to bed. In one fell swoop, you confirm something happened to give the crazies their pound (or ounce) of flesh and at the same time acknowledge it wasn't a big deal by making the fine almost immaterial. Instead, they embarked on this insane crusade, and the Patriots are right for thinking it is ridiculous and trying to make it difficult for the League because the League was out to try to embarrass them.
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Re: The Patriot Way

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Didn't the Patriots initiate the crusade though? They said nothing was wrong with the balls. They went on the stage one week before the Super Bowl with all this math and gas laws trying to defend that nothing illegal happened. If someone fell on the sword Day 1, think they get the fine and everyone does move on.

So rather than punish them and have all these people say "How can you punish them without conclusive scientific data?", they brought in a team of scientists and investigators to figure out what, if anything, happened to the balls, and whether it was by natural gas law. Once that happened, everybody and everything was on the table. It wasn't just about how, but whys. That's how I think it should be. You don't just say Jim Smith committed a murder, you go to the scene, check witnesses, do scientific data, and come up with a conclusion. Whether or not that conclusion was accurate is a different conversation.
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Re: The Patriot Way

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Yesterday the White House press secretary, Josh Ernest, took a shot at Brady, saying he's still a role model and should be held to a higher standard. Would this be happening if Brady was a Democrat?

ISIS must be loving all this. Now, they're only the second most hated organization in the world.

If the Pats only win 4 games next year, I hope it's the first ones.
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Re: The Patriot Way

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I think once the NFL left them out to dry, the Patriots dug in. It never should have gotten to that point.
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Re: The Patriot Way

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RJ, you keep saying that the Patriots refused to allow McNally to interview a fifth time. The problem is there are reports that he was willing to interview a fifth time, only by phone instead of in person because he had been inconvenienced enough and league leaks led ESPN reporters to ambush him at his home. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... -patriots/
And frankly, if Wells was a tenth the lawyer people portray him to be, McNally shouldn't have had to interview a fifth time. Wells would have had the electronic communications in hand and done his research before the very first time he interviewed McNally.

And people keep saying they're sure the Patriots deflated the footballs. You can believe the firm that says secondhand smoke doesn't cause cancer if you want, but perhaps you'd like to take a look at some competing science http://drewfustin.com/deflategate/
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Re: The Patriot Way

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I will concede here that my intuition tells me the Patriots probably deflated the footballs and I wouldn't be outraged if they'd been fined 25k based solely on the information available at the time. However, I don't think the Wells Report came close to proving that to any legal standard and if I were the Patriots I would be fighting them on it tooth and nail.
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Re: The Patriot Way

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TruePoint wrote:I will concede here that my intuition tells me the Patriots probably deflated the footballs and I wouldn't be outraged if they'd been fined 25k based solely on the information available at the time. However, I don't think the Wells Report came close to proving that to any legal standard and if I were the Patriots I would be fighting them on it tooth and nail.
If they wanted to fine the team $300,000 (12 balls times $25,000) for McNally taking the balls into the bathroom, and no longer allow McNally to be affiliated with the team, I wouldn't have had a real problem with it. I would have thought it was dumb that they thought it was 3 times worse then the Jets tampering with Revis, but whatever, I don't worry about the owners money. But the losing of the draft picks and the punishment to Tom Brady is so far out of whack with what may have happened if you believe something did happen compared to similar situations that I have sworn I won't give the league another penny of my money as long as Goodell is in charge.
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Re: The Patriot Way

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Re: The Patriot Way

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I haven't had a chance to look it over myself, but here is the Patriots rebuttal to the Wells Report

http://wellsreportcontext.com/
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Re: The Patriot Way

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Some of the rebuttal is comically absurd, but I'm just happy it exists. Defiance is the #1 greatest quality any human being or organization can have, and the Pats have it in Spades right now. Have never loved them more.

I have said before that I don't agree with their strategic decision to deny anything happened on any level, but I sure as hell commend their commitment to that line of defense.
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Re: The Patriot Way

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This is the greatest thing I have read concerning any topic ever.
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Re: The Patriot Way

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I got to the point where they talk about the "deflator" text, and I think that part is certainly weak. That said, everything up to that point I found to be very strong.
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Re: The Patriot Way

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Just heard that Goodell will be hearing Brady's appeal. Should be fair for Tom.

I found out when I came home from the gym. I'm still working on "deflating" a few more pounds.
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Re: The Patriot Way

Unread post by ATPTourFan »

Some of the stuff towards the end seemed a little weak, but I do believe that the texts were taken out of context and the leap from texts to Brady being generally aware is totally wrong.
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Re: The Patriot Way

Unread post by rambone 78 »

I think it's hilarious that Goodell will be hearing the appeal.

Like he [Goodell] didn't know what the penalties were before they were made public.

I would be quite surprised if his suspension is reduced, needless to say.
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Re: The Patriot Way

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It's a sham ...
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Re: The Patriot Way

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It's almost like Goodell wants this to go to court.
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Re: The Patriot Way

Unread post by ATPTourFan »

It's very hard for me to understand how it's OK that Goodell can be hearing this appeal. I guess the MLB has a better appeal process.
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Re: The Patriot Way

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Goodell won't be hearing the appeals. The NFLPA has summoned him as a witness to testify in their suit against the NFL.
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Re: The Patriot Way

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Even though he's been summoned as a witness Goodell has assigned himself the appeal. I don't know how exactly that's supposed to work, but he's going for it.
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Re: The Patriot Way

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Re: The Patriot Way

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It is almost impressive the degree to which this guy is either unaware or unconcerned about how improperly and foolishly he is acting, and not just about this but all disciplinary matters since he became commissioner of the league.
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Re: The Patriot Way

Unread post by rjsuperfly66 »

Goddell hearing the appeal is comical. It's like like you're boss accusing you of sending secret documents to a competitor, and then hearing your appeal. It's freakin stupid. That said, there are at least options for Brady if the appeal returns unsatisfactory results. It's a no-win for Goddell to hear it, which is why I'm surprised he chose that option. The best option for Goddell was someone truly independent agreeing with him. The other 3 make him look weak -- an independent overturn (see Goddell was too harsh and is a fraud), Goddell keeping it the same (he's biased!), or Goddell reducing it (see, he has no spine!). Makes me surprised he chose the option, unless of course he thought there was a good chance the punishment would be reversed as has happened in countless other occasions.

While I may not agree with everyone on this fiasco, we all do agree that Brady got at least 2 too many games in his suspension.
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Re: The Patriot Way

Unread post by ramfan85 »

I don't see how Goodell can benefit from this. He distanced himself in the investigation and penalty process.
Now, by getting directly involved, he's either going to raise the ire of the other owners who may think he's favoring the Pats if he reduces the penalty or lose Kraft's support if he upholds the penalty.
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Re: The Patriot Way

Unread post by theblueram »

I don't see anyway this doesn't end up in the Federal courts. If Brady never said anything other than make sure the balls are at the lowest end possible, he will not accept any punishment for this. Plus, the NFLPA is claiming that Goodell can't delegate penalty assessment, thus rendering the decision unenforceable.
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Re: The Patriot Way

Unread post by Ramulous »

Maybe the league effed this up on purpose
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Re: The Patriot Way

Unread post by theblueram »

But then again, people get blinded by trust in those they put on pedestals. Like they do for corrupt RI politicians.
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Re: The Patriot Way

Unread post by rambone 78 »

So, Kraft bites the bullet on any appeals. I'll bet he HATES to have to do it.

He's no dummy though, I think he knew that if he were to appeal, that it would take the focus completely away from football next season, and probably doom his team in the process, from having any chance to repeat.

Brady? Legal experts are predicting that he has no chance of getting his suspension reduced or eliminated. With Kraft's announcement today, I think that just reinforces that fact.

Take your medicine Tom. Everybody knows you knew about the footballs. He can't prove he DIDN'T know. So, move on.
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Re: The Patriot Way

Unread post by adam914 »

I have been kind of curious to hear the Pats fans take on this one. I know they'll spin this somehow into Kraft and team still being right and amazing in every way, I'm just curious to hear how they do it. Everybody was loving the defiance being shown by the Pats a week ago, and now they've essentially gone the complete opposite direction.
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Re: The Patriot Way

Unread post by TruePoint »

It seems pretty obvious that Kraft agreed to trade Brady's punishment for his. He will take his medicine so Tom can play.

As a fan, I'm disappointed. I'd have liked to see them fight, and I believe they would have had a good chance to win. But at the end of the day, I believe Kraft does value his place in the league and among the owners and a combination of that and his belief that having Brady play is more important than the draft pick is why he made the deal.

I've said from the beginning that I think the balls were being deflated and Brady knew about it, but that I didn't think that was a crime punishable by more than a very small fine. The circus the league turned it into with the Wells "investigation" and subsequent punishment was absurd, and while I still suspect that the Patriots are guilty of the underlying act, the investigation certainly did not seem to prove that. If it turns out that Kraft accepted the punishment without guarantees from the League that Brady's punishment would be undone, then I don't think I will be able to root for the team or follow the league for a while.
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Re: The Patriot Way

Unread post by RhowdyRam02 »

I'd love to know what legal experts are saying Tom Brady can't reduce or eliminate his suspension. According to the collective bargaining agreement Troy Vincent didn't have the power to suspend Tom Brady, only Roger Goodell had that power, so the suspension can be overturned just by virtue of who handed it down, they don't even need to argue the case. Any "legal expert" that thinks it will stay at four games probably doesn't know contract law too well.

I'm furious with Kraft. The Wells Report was garbage and the penalty was insane. The fact that he acted like he was going to fight it just to cave at the owners meetings is just cowardly.
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Shaolin Swat
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Re: The Patriot Way

Unread post by Shaolin Swat »

My initial thought was also that this was in exchange for getting Brady's suspension lifted. I also wanted to see the team fight the league, especially since the team's reaction was very defiant. I'm disappointed that they decided not to fight the league, but if this doesn't lead to Brady's suspension being listed, then I won't have any idea how to react.

All that being said, I couldn't care less about the deflated footballs and think that it is in the same boat as the stickum on the towels or heating the footballs on the sidelines. I look at these situations and don't believe that they have any substantial impact on the game whatsoever.
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ramfan85
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Re: The Patriot Way

Unread post by ramfan85 »

"I'm furious with Kraft. The Wells Report was garbage and the penalty was insane. The fact that he acted like he was going to fight it just to cave at the owners meetings is just cowardly."

He sure sounded tough yesterday. Today? Not so much.
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SmartyBarrett
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Re: The Patriot Way

Unread post by SmartyBarrett »

RhowdyRam02 wrote:I'm furious with Kraft. The Wells Report was garbage and the penalty was insane. The fact that he acted like he was going to fight it just to cave at the owners meetings is just cowardly.
Totally agree. However, from everything I read, it seems like the Pats had no recourse here. They're bound by the NFL's bylaws, which essentially say the NFL can do whatever they want to a team and the team has to sit there and like it. Short of suing the league (which did end well for the Raiders and Al Davis in the past, but that was an outlier), there's no sort of appeal process or anything. The NFL was even allowed to overreach with the penalty and issue a fine literally double the amount allowed per the bylaws. Suing most likely would have been futile. Anyone who spins this as Kraft admitting guilt is discounting the fact that he pretty much had no way of fighting this other than kicking and screaming, which he already did. Fortunately for us Pats fans, Brady (and all players) are afforded many more options than franchises.
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