KeaneyBlue - The URI Basketball Forum

I was just joking.

Every city would love to have the PawSox. No city however wants to pay for a stadium. I can't see ownership taking on the risk of moving out of the metro Providence market unless it was somehow greatly subsidized. To me it is looking more likely they might actually stay in Pawtucket. They will however still be looking for some sort of handout. It would likely be far less in Pawtucket given the land and stadium are already there. Money would be for further renovations versus something from scratch.

Edward Fitzpatrick: PawSox owners should listen to McCoy fans

Providence Journal
10-25-2015


http://www.providencejournal.com/articl ... 0/?Start=1

Fresh off declining attendance at McCoy Stadium and rejection of their new taxpayer supported Providence stadium proposal, the new owners of the Pawsox are making nice and taking a much more cooperative approach to matters.

http://www.pawtuckettimes.com/news/paws ... 7987c.html

Hartford is already a debacle...this is hardly noticeable...

PROPOSED PAWSOX STADIUM
Publicly owned park on the table
Lucchino says team, city, state leaders eye two downtown Pawtucket sites

By Kate Bramson Journal Staff Writer
http://digital.olivesoftware.com/Olive/ ... ty=ar00102

How is Larry Lucchino still in our lives? Go away, Larry.

These locations seem pretty good, but with anything Lucchino is involved in, there is usually an ulterior motive.

rambone 78 wrote:These locations seem pretty good, but with anything Lucchino is involved in, there is usually an ulterior motive.

He wants the taxpayers of Pawtucket and RI to pay for it so he can benefit by it.

Yup. At least under this proposal the state/Pawtucket would own it so in theory get extra revenue and not give as many tax breaks. The Providence proposal had the team owning the stadium, getting tax breaks for building the stadium, but we would eventually pay for all the costs of building with interest. It's still a poor proposal for the state, but pending extra details seems to be slightly better than Providence.

PROPOSED PAWSOX STADIUM
Foes: No public funds for park
By Kate Bramson Journal Staff Writer

http://digital.olivesoftware.com/Olive/ ... ty=ar00103

I really like the apex site for the new stadium. The Fenway replication is an interesting idea. Also, Lucchino is trying to shrink the capacity to 9K to allow the stadium to have a smaller "cozier" feel to it with a high chance of a sell out. I think it's a great idea. Triple A minimum is 10K so he'll have to getg permission first. I like the current staidum, but you're in denial if you don't think the Apex site is much better and could do wonders for Downtown Bucket.

I strenuously disagree.

I hate the fetishization of Fenway in this area. The PawSox shouldn't be looking to build a stadium with Fenway's dimensions, Boston should be building a real Major League ballpark and not a replica of Fenway.

Also, he can say the 9k is so it's cozier but what it sounds like is the site isn't big enough for a AAA level ballpark. You know, because we can't have real seating in two thirds of the outfield because it has to be just like Fenway.

Finally I don't think the Apex site is ideal. A. It's going to be a traffic nightmare for those going to the game and people that don't care about the PawSox. B. Who wants to be right on a highway when they're trying to get away from things and relax at a ballgame? C. Parking is going to be a huge issue at this site.

I like the Fenway Park replica idea...despite it's seeming non-practicality. I don't like the idea of on the highway and already issues raised about traffic and parking. I love going to Fenway, but those two things are huge barriers as far as going more often... Aside from work, which at least has a payday upside...traffic and parking problems rank right up there with life's major annoyances, not life's biggest 'problems', to be clear...but an annoyance to be avoided for sure.

https://pbn.com/study-apex-site-pawsox- ... r-stadium/

Pretty through economic report. I'm all for it on the apex site option.

This report was written by planners. I wouldn't take much stock in anything it says.

Raimondo has said the state won't give more than $35 million for this project. Probably not a coincidence that that's the same number needed to keep McCoy viable. If only we could get the same offer for Meade...

We're only the state university.....no chance to see that money.

Thorr and Dooley must be livid.

The PawSox are looking for $23 million from the state. The team says the state’s investment would be paid back over time using revenue generated from the ballpark, including sales tax receipts.

So uh, can we get $23 million for Meade Stadium???

https://pbn.com/pawsox-unveil-stadium-proposal/

That rendering is pretty awesome.

One thing I was thinking last night. Who owns McCoy Stadium, specifically the seats and video board? Presumably the PawSox won't be bringing the chairs and video board with them to a new park and McCoy Stadium won't need them if and when the PawSox move. If the state owns that equipment that seems like something that could be repurposed for use at Meade.

The ownership group is offering to pay $45 million – or 54.2 percent – of total costs, and is asking for state and city taxpayers to pay for the rest. State taxpayers would pay about $23 million. Pawtucket taxpayers would pay an additional $15 million.

the State should not be paying a dime for this. Why is the state funding private entities like this and the Dunk, but not URI?

steviep123 wrote:

The ownership group is offering to pay $45 million – or 54.2 percent – of total costs, and is asking for state and city taxpayers to pay for the rest. State taxpayers would pay about $23 million. Pawtucket taxpayers would pay an additional $15 million.

the State should not be paying a dime for this. Why is the state funding private entities like this and the Dunk, but not URI?

I'm no economist, but to me it does make sense for a state/city to invest in the stadium ,which will eventually make money/spark development for the city/state itself. Rhode Islanders see 38 studios in their mind and crap themselves, understandably, but its clearly not the same thing.

As against the project as I was in Providence, it seems like this project could break even for the state/city. Obviously they have a better feel on the numbers. If this is break even for the state in the long haul then I think they should do it.

That said, I understand why people are upset that this project will probably get funded while Meade decomposes.

Preferred the Providence location for a new stadium. Wish they weren't building a Fenway replica, if I want Fenway I'll go to Fenway.

So now the news is that the Pawsox are looking are other cities for a potential relocation of the team. It's enraging to think that people are so off the charts against beneficial development in this state. The Providence site would have done wonders to that water front and downtown, and the Pawtucket site would have taken that city out of the decades long economic abyss, and would have sparked a new generation to come to downtown. Instead, Rhode Islanders see "tax" and immediately think 38 studios and fire up the torches without looking at the benefits. So sad. "Keep the Pawsox in Pawtucket" bumper stickers are going right in the trash. Unbelievable to not take advantage of this opportunity that cities would kill for, such as Worcester who's in serious contention for the new stadium.

Almost the entire blame should be laid at the feet of the PawSox for this. The Providence "deal" the PawSox first proposed was so greedy, so obscene that it completely poisoned the water for future talks. Then when RI didn't just roll over and give in, they shopped around for another area and only came back when they realized no one was going to give them what they wanted. By the time they got serious it left no time for any hitches, which is a ludicrous time line when dealing with any state government, not just RI.

Larry Lucchino and the PawSox have handled this so poorly that at this point I assume they never truly wanted to keep the team in RI.

I don't think the Pawsox are leaving the area. There is no other location in New England that would be comparable (population size/proximity to Boston/affinity for Boston sports/media market/no other team at present). This talk about discussions with other cities is just TALK. Everyone loves the thought of having the PawSox but coming up with the money to build a stadium is a different matter. I am very familiar with Worcester having gone to school there. All their minor league teams fail in time (IceCats, Sharks, Tornados). The city does not really anchor a big metro area and does not have much of a media market (no local tv stations and newspaper has much lower subscriber base than PROJO) to help promote teams. People in the greater Boston metro area rarely venture to Worcester.

Worcester is supposedly wooing the PawSox but I just don't see them moving there. The Pawsox are not moving unless someone opens up their checkbook big time. The proposal for a new 83M stadium adjacent to Route 95 alongside the Blackstone River in downtown Pawtucket calls for the State of RI to contribute 23M and the City of Pawtucket 15M. The Pawsox would add $45 million ($12 million upfront, the rest paybacks on money borrowed by the Pawtucket Redevelopment Agency). The legislation did not make it to a vote during the last session before the Pawsox-City of Pawtucket exclusive deal date expired. It is expected to come up in the next session (possibly in the Fall).

A ballpark in Worcester at the former Wyman Gordon industrial site would likely exceed 83M given the remediation work that would be required prior to construction. Worcester and the State of MA would probably have to exceed the 38M being offered in RI due to the extra venue cost. The Pawsox might even demand more for the risk and uncertainty it would assume with a move to a new much smaller market with a history of several previous failed minor league sports ventures. Worcester would be hard pressed to come up with the money and MA legislative politics is focused mainly on the Boston area so getting state aid might be difficult.

Furthermore, the Worcester Winter-Wyman site could never come close to providing the highway access that a ballpark in Pawtucket right next to Route 95 would offer. The nearest highway access (Rte 290) is several blocks away and requires navigating Kelley Square, the worst traffic intersection in the city (multiple streets all come together there with no signals less than 100 yards from highway).


Rendition of new Pawtucket Ballpark

Blackstone River on the left and Rte 95 on the right in photo. Site is where Apex is currently located.


Proposed ballpark site is center of photo where pyramid shaped Apex building is. Slater Mill Historic Site (1793) is at bottom right corner. Downtown Providence skyline is visible in top center.


New PawSox Ballpark Bill Emerges in Rhode Island Senate
By Kevin Reichard on June 27, 2017 in Minor-League Baseball, News
http://ballparkdigest.com/2017/06/27/ne ... nd-senate/


Worcester vs Pawtucket/Providence market population comparison
(proposed Pawtucket Stadium is on Route 95 just 5 miles from downtown Providence)

Worcester Market (935,536)
Worcester 180,519
Shrewsbury 35,269
Milbury 13,250
Auburn 16,183
Holden 17,197
Grafton 17,472
W Boylston 7,660
Paxton 4,767
Leicester 10,934
Northborough 14,180
Boylston 4,320
Westborough 18,285
Sutton 8,908
Leominster 40,884
Fitchburg 40,286

Pawtucket-Providence Market (1.61M)
Pawtucket 71,148
Providence 178,042
Attleboro, MA 43,593
Seekonk, MA 14,371
N Attleborough, MA 28,712
East Providence 47,037
North Providence 32,480
Central Falls 19,328
Cumberland 32,506
Lincoln 21,105
Cranston 80,387
Woonsocket 41,186
Warwick 82,672
W Warwick 29,788

How is the Pawtucket/Providence market 1.6 million when the whole state has barely a million people?

Some Massachusetts cities and towns are included because of their proximity to Providence

So we include the whole state and towns in Mass representing 60% of our state population? Must have Connecticut in there as well.

theblueram wrote:How is the Pawtucket/Providence market 1.6 million when the whole state has barely a million people?

The numbers I used are the official federal metro numbers for each city. Metro Providence includes all of RI and much of SE Mass and metro Worcester includes Worcester County and a part of NE CT.

RI government will screw this up. Massachusetts has the Red Sox so why not have the AAA Affiliate too. Would not surprise me at all to see them end up in Worcester.

It would be an economic non impact to the state.

those numbers above don't add up do they?

ramster wrote:RI government will screw this up. Massachusetts has the Red Sox so why not have the AAA Affiliate too. Would not surprise me at all to see them end up in Worcester.

Trust me. I know both Pawtucket and Worcester very well having lived in both. I was actually in attendance at McCoy for the resumed 33rd inning of the longest baseball game. They will not end up in Worcester. The city will not get the state support it needs. As mentioned the MA legislature is very much Boston centic with their attention. The City of Worcester has also seen several recent minor league sports teams fail - Ice Cats (AHL), Sharks (AHL), and Tornados (Can-Am League /independednt baseball). The Worcester metro are is much smaller than Providence and has not been large enough to adequately support its teams. The city does not even have a local tv station. Everything in MA gravitates toward Boston. As for the Red Sox wanting their AAA farm team in MA, I doubt it. They already have the major league club in Boston and their A team in Lowell. Having their AAA (Pawtucket-RI) and AA (portland-ME) teams in other states/markets makes sense for them. Having the AAA team in New England's 2nd largest metro area is ideal. I went to school in Worcester and know the city well. Worcester will not be able to put up an attractive enough package and the city cannot support a team for the long haul.

UCH21377 wrote:those numbers above don't add up do they?

I did not list all towns in the metro areas, just the ones that were either contiguous to Pawtucket/Worcester or had substantial population numbers and were relatively close by.

RF1 wrote:

ramster wrote:RI government will screw this up. Massachusetts has the Red Sox so why not have the AAA Affiliate too. Would not surprise me at all to see them end up in Worcester.

Trust me. I know both Pawtucket and Worcester very well having lived in both. I was actually in attendance at McCoy for the resumed 33rd inning of the longest baseball game. They will not end up in Worcester. The city will not get the state support it needs. As mentioned the MA legislature is very much Boston centic with their attention. The City of Worcester has also seen several recent minor league sports teams fail - Ice Cats (AHL), Sharks (AHL), and Tornados (Can-Am League /independednt baseball). The Worcester metro are is much smaller than Providence and has not been large enough to adequately support its teams. The cit does not even have a local tv station. Everything in MA gravitates toward Boston. As for the Red Sox wanting their AAA farm team in MA, I doubt it. They already have the major league in Boston and their A team in Lowell. Having their AAA (Pawtucket-RI) and AA (portland-ME) teams in other states/markets makes sense for them. Having the AAA team in New England's 2ndf larges metro area is ideal. I went to school in Worcester and know the city well. Worcester will not be able to put up an attractive enough package and the city cannot support a team for the long haul.

I don't think so. This has been going on now for so long and Rhode Island has not been able to close a deal. Talk of Pawtucket, Providence, Even the Warwick mayor made a pitch. I'll be very surprised if the team stays in RI. Worcester is excited about the prospect. In RI just hear from politicians, over and over. Can't close a deal or even agree on one. You may be right and they don't end up in Worcester but I think RI has lost this team.

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-re ... for-pawsox

theblueram wrote:How is the Pawtucket/Providence market 1.6 million when the whole state has barely a million people?

This makes perfect sense. Obviously not ever Pawsox fan is from RI, just like not every Red Sox fan is from Mass. Plus McCoy Stadium is less than 2 miles from the MASS/RI border.

Good article by Bill. It's a good deal, tax payers need to realize that this is one of the better publicity funded projects that actually give back to the public and is built for the public.

Pawsox tour Worcester-meet with city leaders

http://www.providencejournal.com/news/2 ... ty-leaders


I still think this is all posturing. I will only get concerned when another city actually announces a better financing deal.



I also have to chuckle with some of the terms describing the "bustling" CANAL DISTRICT. First off, you would never know there was ever a canal there or why a neighborhood road is called Water Street. There is no canal or any visible water anywhere in the area. Worcester covered up its river and canal in the late 1800's. Approximately 2 miles (from Salisbury Pond by WPI to the Walmart below Holy Cross) of waterway run beneath the surface of downtown Worcester. As for the district being bustling, that is a very subjective term. There are a few restaurants and bars in the area. It is hardly bustling in my opinion with many open gaps in the district. Worcester's downtown is pretty much now dead with near zero retail and restaurants. The Worcester Galleria and later Worcester Common Outlets are long gone with most of the structure having been torn down and streets put back in to pre 1970 days. The main restaurant area of Worcester is on the other eastern side of Route 290 on Shrewsbury Street leading away from the downtown. Worcester may have downtown Pawtucket beat but it is by no means bustling nor similar to Providence.

I continue to think they are gone. Will be a shame if Rhode Island loses the Paw Sox. I'll be pleasantly surprised if they stay but Providence and Pawtucket can't seem to get their act together,

http://www.telegram.com/news/20170707/c ... wsox-pitch

ramster wrote:I continue to think they are gone. Will be a shame if Rhode Island loses the Paw Sox. I'll be pleasantly surprised if they stay but Providence and Pawtucket can't seem to get their act together,

http://www.telegram.com/news/20170707/c ... wsox-pitch

What stadium financing plan is Worcester offering the Pawsox? I have tried to find one but have found nothing close to such a proposal. All I have read is that Worcester wants them and some city leaders have made that publicly known. I have not seen where they have ever backed that up with a concrete offer of big financial support.

Not just Worcester, but there's nothing about MA kicking in money. I'm sure Worcester can't foot $38 million themselves, which is what the PawSox are looking for from Pawtucket and RI combined.

RhowdyRam02 wrote:Not just Worcester, but there's nothing about MA kicking in money. I'm sure Worcester can't foot $38 million themselves, which is what the PawSox are looking for from Pawtucket and RI combined.

So why is it taking so long for Providence or Pawtucket or RI to close the deal on the Paw Sox? I don't have the same confidence that most here have that RI is going to keep the Paw Sox.

Because the first proposal (Providence Park) was a disaster, the second proposal left the state on the hook too much if things didn't work out, and the third proposal was sent to the state when the legislature was ending.

RhowdyRam02 wrote:Because the first proposal (Providence Park) was a disaster, the second proposal left the state on the hook too much if things didn't work out, and the third proposal was sent to the state when the legislature was ending.

Moreover, the Assembly has yet to finalize a budget for 17-18, which is a priority. That they haven't been able to is a predictably stupid shame. But that's another story.