Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

NFL, MLB, NHL, NBA, BPL... you get it

What do you think of the Pawsox sale?

It's bad, and I wish they would stay in Pawtucket.
24
53%
I'm in favor of the team moving to Providence.
14
31%
I'd prefer that the team move to Massachusetts.
3
7%
I don't care.
4
9%
 
Total votes: 45

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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby ramster » 3 months ago

Rhody74 wrote:
RhowdyRam02 wrote:Because the first proposal (Providence Park) was a disaster, the second proposal left the state on the hook too much if things didn't work out, and the third proposal was sent to the state when the legislature was ending.


Moreover, the Assembly has yet to finalize a budget for 17-18, which is a priority. That they haven't been able to is a predictably stupid shame. But that's another story.


All of these things mentioned are true. A lot of time has transpired and nothing agreed between the state and the Red Sox. Nothing has happened - so why expect it now? It's dysfunctional - whether that is the Red Sox Fault or the State or RI's fault or Pawtucket or Providence or Warwick government it does not matter - I just don't see Paw Sox staying in RI.

State General Assembly not finalizing a Budget just another example.
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby RF1 » 3 months ago

ramster wrote:
Rhody74 wrote:
RhowdyRam02 wrote:Because the first proposal (Providence Park) was a disaster, the second proposal left the state on the hook too much if things didn't work out, and the third proposal was sent to the state when the legislature was ending.


Moreover, the Assembly has yet to finalize a budget for 17-18, which is a priority. That they haven't been able to is a predictably stupid shame. But that's another story.


All of these things mentioned are true. A lot of time has transpired and nothing agreed between the state and the Red Sox. Nothing has happened - so why expect it now? It's dysfunctional - whether that is the Red Sox Fault or the State or RI's fault or Pawtucket or Providence or Warwick government it does not matter - I just don't see Paw Sox staying in RI.

State General Assembly not finalizing a Budget just another example.



The converse could be said as well. Why do seem to think it will be easy for a deal to get done somewhere else? You think Worcester will act quick? You think a stadium in Worcester will get support and move easily in the MA legislature? Worcester, and anywhere outside the Boston area, is an afterthought in the state. Things take time everywhere.
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby RhowdyRam02 » 3 months ago

The Patriots couldn't get state funding for the stadium, only infrastructure on route 1. The Red Sox couldn't get state funding when they wanted a new park, the Bruins and Celtics couldn't get state funding, the Revolution can't get state funding.
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby ramster » 3 months ago

RF1 wrote:
ramster wrote:
Rhody74 wrote:
Moreover, the Assembly has yet to finalize a budget for 17-18, which is a priority. That they haven't been able to is a predictably stupid shame. But that's another story.


All of these things mentioned are true. A lot of time has transpired and nothing agreed between the state and the Red Sox. Nothing has happened - so why expect it now? It's dysfunctional - whether that is the Red Sox Fault or the State or RI's fault or Pawtucket or Providence or Warwick government it does not matter - I just don't see Paw Sox staying in RI.

State General Assembly not finalizing a Budget just another example.



The converse could be said as well. Why do seem to think it will be easy for a deal to get done somewhere else? You think Worcester will act quick? You think a stadium in Worcester will get support and move easily in the M'A legislature? Worcester, and anywhere outside the Boston area, is an afterthought in the state. Things take time everywhere.


I never said it would be easy and quick. Nowhere did I say that or even infer that. But the State of Rhode Island, Cities of Pawtucket, Providence and even Warwick for a short time have not been able to make anything happen. I see nothing different in the past 6 months to make me think that the inability to make a decision on the Paw Sox over this 2 year period will change.

My point is I do not think the State of Rhode Island will keep this team. Whether it Worcester or some other city in New England or some city away from New England, I don't think Rhode Island can keep this team.
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby Rhodymob05 » 3 months ago

I'm not giving up on RI just yet.
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Springfield-MA Mayor skeptical Pawsox would leave RI

Unread postby RF1 » 3 months ago

Interesting comments from the Springfield Mayor Domenic Sarno at the end of June 2017 regarding the Pawsox leaving RI:

Sarno has his doubts the PawSox would seriously entertain leaving Rhode Island. " Lucchino begins with an 'L' and leverage begins with an 'L'," Sarno said in explaining his skepticism of reports the PawSox might leave Rhode Island.

Other excerpts from the piece:
There’s little to suggest the PawSox owners would have an easier time in Massachusetts getting public financing for a new ballpark.

The Massachusetts Legislature didn’t blink almost two decades ago when the new owner of the New England Patriots, Robert Kraft, threatened to move the team to Hartford, if he couldn’t get a stadium deal in Massachusetts.

Kraft ended up privately-financing the Patriot’s stadium in Foxboro. The state did agree to spend millions on improvements to the main highway going past the stadium.

The inability to get a commitment to publicly finance, if necessary, the venues for Olympic games in Boston resulted in organizers withdrawing their bid for the 2024 Summer Olympics.



Springfield Mayor Doubts PawSox Would Seriously Entertain Offer To Leave Rhode Island
http://wamc.org/post/springfield-mayor- ... ode-island
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby TruePoint » 3 months ago

As a Massachusetts resident, Red Sox fan and person who grew up in RI, I can tell you that there is zero appetite for a AAA baseball team in Massachusetts. It would be insane for the PawSox ownership group to move the team from RI. Whatever the issues with attendance and revenues (if there are any, it isn't something I follow), they would be much more severe in Massachusetts. The PawSox are a Rhode Island institution and that alone is worth something. A move to Worcester wouldn't move the needle a fraction of an inch for most people here.
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby RF1 » 3 months ago

Analysis: The Pawtucket Red Sox and Worcester
Worcester Magazine
By Walter Bird Jr. - July 7, 2017

https://worcestermag.com/2017/07/07/ana ... ster/52458
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby ramster » 3 months ago

I have to admire the faith your guys have in Rhode Island Government to keep the Paw Sox in RI. The longer this drags on the more I believe this team is gone from this state.
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby RhowdyRam02 » 3 months ago

If nothing happens in the general assembly in the fall and we start hearing legitimate rumblings of negotiations elsewhere I'll think they might move. Until then there's no reason to think they're leaving
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby ramster » 3 months ago

These two articles you have just posted are from July 7th and from July 21st. This article is from July 28th.

Note this is Lucchino's second visit to Worcester to tour the Canal District. Also article now says Springfield is also showing interest in the Paw Sox. 10,000 post cards sent by Worcester fans expressing their desire for the Paw Sox. Canal District Committee is pushing for the team.

If I saw more interest being generated by fans in RI I might feel differently but just don't feel it. Hope you guys are right but I don't see this team staying in RI. Providence building a stadium along the River looked like a great concept but it fizzled. Don't know what is on the table now

The fact that the RI Assembly did not more on this in July has not helped the cause to keep the team in RI.


http://www.masslive.com/news/worcester/ ... d_vis.html
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby Rhody74 » 3 months ago

The General Assembly did not meet in July due to the budget impasse. It was well known that the GA wouldn't take it up until fall. If nothing happens then, the PawSox may move.
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby RF1 » 3 months ago

ramster wrote:These two articles you have just posted are from July 7th and from July 21st. This article is from July 28th.

Note this is Lucchino's second visit to Worcester to tour the Canal District. Also article now says Springfield is also showing interest in the Paw Sox. 10,000 post cards sent by Worcester fans expressing their desire for the Paw Sox. Canal District Committee is pushing for the team.

If I saw more interest being generated by fans in RI I might feel differently but just don't feel it. Hope you guys are right but I don't see this team staying in RI. Providence building a stadium along the River looked like a great concept but it fizzled. Don't know what is on the table now

The fact that the RI Assembly did not more on this in July has not helped the cause to keep the team in RI.


http://www.masslive.com/news/worcester/ ... d_vis.html



The articles I posted were after or when it was apparent the stadium funding would not get resolved in the RI legislative session which was to end 06/30/17.

Have you yourself ever been to the Worcester canal district or spent considerable time in that city? I attended WPI for four years living just blocks from downtown. I have also lived and worked in the central MA area for many years after graduation. I think I have a decent handle on the environment there.

How can you say the team is going to move to another state when you don't even know what the plan on the table in RI is? There is a bill proposing a new stadium in downtown Pawtucket along Route 95 at the site of the former Apex. The State of RI would contribute 23M and the City of Pawtucket 15M. The bill got finalized late in the session and did not make it to a vote before it ended. It is not dead and is expected to come up in the next session. There is some talk that a special session may actually be called in the fall which may take it up. The reason you are seeing discussion with other cities right now is that an exclusive deal between the Pawsox and Pawtucket expired 06/30/17 (which was the original target date for legislative approval). The governor and Pawtucket mayor are in favor of the bill. It will be up to the RI General Assembly to ultimately decide its fate. In the mean time Lucchino is having talks with places such as Worcester. He is doing so for two reasons - get more leverage for the RI bill and have a back up if the RI General Assembly bills fails. Talks with Worcester are very general. If they were to pursue Worcester, the situation there is far behind the existing schedule in RI. Waiting a few months more for RI to act would likely still be far ahead of any plan in MA which would require the partnership of Worcester and the Commonwealth of MA where there is no bill in waiting the wings of their legislature.

Have patience. Public/private ventures never move quickly and have their ups and downs. It is to be expected. Some might say projects like this getting approval in MA might even be more difficult than RI given that state's reluctance to contribute funds to sports facilities (Gillette/Garden/Revs Stadium/Olympics).
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby SGreenwell » 3 months ago

I'm firmly in the camp that any threat to move to Worcester is just the Sox trying to leverage more out of Rhode Island - kind of the reverse of what happened with the Patriots and Providence. I think Worcester would have to blow away the Sox with money to the tune of 2x or 3x what Rhode Island offers to make that sort of move worth it.

And at that price, heck, I'm comfortable with "losing" the team. I like the Pawsox, but ultimately, they're AAA baseball. It's not like having the team and McCoy has made Pawtucket into a vital center of the state.
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby Rhodymob05 » 3 months ago

RF1 I hope you're right! Build the damn stadium in Pawtucket.
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby RF1 » 3 months ago

BUDGET PASSES
After month-long impasse, Senate OKs $9.2B package; governor signs it
By Jacqueline Tempera Journal Staff Writer
http://digital.olivesoftware.com/Olive/ ... ty=ar00105




Both chambers will return on Sept. 19 to work on outstanding bills, and potentially consider legislation on a Pawtucket Red Sox stadium.
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby ramster » 3 months ago

I'm firmly in the camp that says Rhode Island will not keep the AAA Red Sox. The state has had an abundant amount of time to resolve and nothing has progressed. Springfield is also showing interest.
State budget has not been the issue for the last 2 years, only the latest obstacle.
Most of you have much more faith in the RI Government than I do.
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby RhowdyRam02 » 3 months ago

ramster wrote:I'm firmly in the camp that says Rhode Island will not keep the AAA Red Sox. The state has had an abundant amount of time to resolve and nothing has progressed. Springfield is also showing interest.
State budget has not been the issue for the last 2 years, only the latest obstacle.
Most of you have much more faith in the RI Government than I do.


I disagree with your RI timeline, but let's ignore that for now. Where is Springfield getting the money to do this? If Massachusetts wasn't going to spend money for the Olympics, Patriots, Red Sox, Bruins, Celtics, or Revolution, why would they suddenly do that for a AAA baseball team? Why would the PawSox owners want to move there when multiple minor league sports have failed there? Who wants to spend a second more than absolutely necessary in Springfield, MA? Is there a good answer to any one of these questions, let alone all of them?
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby ramster » 3 months ago

RhowdyRam02 wrote:
ramster wrote:I'm firmly in the camp that says Rhode Island will not keep the AAA Red Sox. The state has had an abundant amount of time to resolve and nothing has progressed. Springfield is also showing interest.
State budget has not been the issue for the last 2 years, only the latest obstacle.
Most of you have much more faith in the RI Government than I do.


I disagree with your RI timeline, but let's ignore that for now. Where is Springfield getting the money to do this? If Massachusetts wasn't going to spend money for the Olympics, Patriots, Red Sox, Bruins, Celtics, or Revolution, why would they suddenly do that for a AAA baseball team? Why would the PawSox owners want to move there when multiple minor league sports have failed there? Who wants to spend a second more than absolutely necessary in Springfield, MA? Is there a good answer to any one of these questions, let alone all of them?


To be clear I am not saying the PawSox will end up in Springfield or in Worcester, the news is reporting these candidates. Plus Officials just completed their 2nd visit to Worcester end of July.
I am saying the PawSox will likely not end up in RI. Will be a shame because RI Politicians will have blown it. Had a great site in Providence but could not get agreement. I hope I'm wrong because I love the PawSox here. The legendary 33 inning game. Jim Rice, Fred Lynn, Rico Petrocelli, Mo Vaughn...........
If we lose out to places like Worcester or Springfield or other it will be just salt in the wound. This should have long been settled not headed into continued morass of indecision.
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby RF1 » 3 months ago

ramster wrote:
RhowdyRam02 wrote:
ramster wrote:I'm firmly in the camp that says Rhode Island will not keep the AAA Red Sox. The state has had an abundant amount of time to resolve and nothing has progressed. Springfield is also showing interest.
State budget has not been the issue for the last 2 years, only the latest obstacle.
Most of you have much more faith in the RI Government than I do.


I disagree with your RI timeline, but let's ignore that for now. Where is Springfield getting the money to do this? If Massachusetts wasn't going to spend money for the Olympics, Patriots, Red Sox, Bruins, Celtics, or Revolution, why would they suddenly do that for a AAA baseball team? Why would the PawSox owners want to move there when multiple minor league sports have failed there? Who wants to spend a second more than absolutely necessary in Springfield, MA? Is there a good answer to any one of these questions, let alone all of them?


To be clear I am not saying the PawSox will end up in Springfield or in Worcester, the news is reporting these candidates. Plus Officials just completed their 2nd visit to Worcester end of July.
I am saying the PawSox will likely not end up in RI. Will be a shame because RI Politicians will have blown it. Had a great site in Providence but could not get agreement. I hope I'm wrong because I love the PawSox here. The legendary 33 inning game. Jim Rice, Fred Lynn, Rico Petrocelli, Mo Vaughn...........
If we lose out to places like Worcester or Springfield or other it will be just salt in the wound. This should have long been settled not headed into continued morass of indecision.



If not Worcester or Springfield, where? The value of the Pawsox is most maximized by being close to Boston and the center of Red Sox Nation. You keep indicating that the team will leave RI but offer no alternative home. They won't leave RI if there is not another viable location stepping up to the plate. Springfield and Worcester are the 2nd and 4th largest cities in all of New England (Providence is 3rd). The next four largest cities in New England (Bridgeport/New Haven/Stamford/Hartford) are all in CT where the Red Sox have their lowest brand value of the region. CT also already has four minor league teams with different ownership with Hartford being the highest level (AA). Where then do the Pawsox go? The metro Providence area is the 2nd largest metro area in all of New England when the surrounding towns are factored in. It is also ideally located just an hour from Boston. There is no better place in all of New England for the top Red Sox minor league team to be located. I get that RI has been slow to act. I however fail to see a very attractive alternative with the needed demographics ready to guarantee paying a significant portion for a new stadium. The are not many plausible places to site the team given I believe the parent has a strong preference to keep the club reasonably close to Boston.


Largest Cities in New England based on 2010 Population
1. Boston Massachusetts 655,884 (#1 Metro)
2. Worcester Massachusetts 184,815 (#5 Metro)
3. Providence Rhode Island 179,207 (#2 Metro)
4. Springfield Massachusetts 153,060 (#7 Metro)
5. Bridgeport Connecticut 147,629 (#4 Metro - Bridgeport/Stamford/Norwalk)
6. New Haven Connecticut 130,741 (#6 Metro)
7. Stamford Connecticut 129,116 (#4 Metro - Bridgeport/Stamford/Norwalk)
8. Hartford Connecticut 124,893 (#3 Metro)
9. Manchester New Hampshire 110,448 (#7 Metro)
10. Lowell Massachusetts 109,945 (#1 Metro - Boston)

Bridgeport and Stamford are considered in the same metro. Lowell is part of the Boston metro.

Professional Baseball in New England
MLB Boston
AAA Pawtucket
AA Portland
AA Manchester
AA Hartford
A Lowell
A Norwich
INDEPENDENT Bridgeport
INDEPENDENT New Britain
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby Rhodymob05 » 3 months ago

Providence >Springfield and Worcester by a mile
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby ramster » 3 months ago

Don't know where they go. Maybe your belief that there is no other place for the Paw Sox to go is the same belief that RI political establishment possesses. Hopefully it doesn't backfire.
Before Pawtucket the AAA team was in Louisville in the early 1970's.
AA team is in Portland Maine. They have the Fenway Wall that they refer to as the Maine Monster. Also added replicas of the Citgo Sign and the Coke Bottle.
Salem VA is next
Single A team is in Greenville, South Carolina where they built the stadium as a replica of Fenway Park complete with a left field wall.
Single A team - short season - is in Lowell MA
Fort Myers has the Spring Training and also has a left field wall with seating on top similar to Fenway

Teams tend to prefer their AAA affiliate be located nearby but it is not always the practice. A review of the International League Teams shows many with a significant distance from the parent club.

Hope the AAA team stays in RI but my faith and confidence in RI State Government to keep this team is very low.
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby ramster » 3 months ago

Attendance will play a role in the Red Sox Decision on the Pawtucket Red Sox
This year PawSox averaged 6,069 for 60.5% Capacity. 10 of the 14 teams in the International League average more people per game than PawSox
The AA Affiliate Portland Sea Dogs averaged 5,456 for 75.2% Capacity
The A Affiliate Greenville Drive averaged 4,903 for 92.5% Capacity

AAA International League
Charlotte Knights - 9,104
Indianapolis Indians - 9,028
Columbus Clippers - 8,985
Lehigh Valley Iron Pigs - 8,422
Durham Bulls - 7,639
Buffalo Bisons - 7,469
Toledo Mud Hens - 7,428
Louisville Bats - 6,886
Scranton/Wilkes-Barre Rail Riders - 6,193
Rochester Red Wings - 6,075
Pawtucket Red Sox - 6,069 with McCoy Stadium Capacity = 10,030 = 60.5%
Norfolk Tides - 5,383
Syracuse Chiefs - 4,422
Gwinnett Braves - 3,104

AA - Eastern League
Reading Fightin Phils - 6,024
Richmond Flying Squirrels - 5,771
Hartford Yard Goats - 5,544
Portland Sea Dogs - 5,456 - Hadlock Field Capacity 7,368 = 75.2%
Trenton Thunder - 5,101
Akron RubberDucks - 5,058
New Hampshire Fisher Cats - 4,541
Altoona Curve - 4,230
Harrisburg Senators - 3,896
Bowie Baysox - 3,524
Binghamton Rumble Ponies - 3,141
Erie SeaWolves - 3,048

A -South Atlantic League Attendance 2017
Greensboro Grasshoppers - 5,265
Lakewood Blue Claws - 5,095
Columbia Fireflies - 4,938
Greenville Drive - 4,903 - Flour Stadium Capacity of 5,300 = 92.5%
Charleston River Dogs - 4,522
Lexington Legends - 4,221
Delmarva Shorebirds - 3,172
Asheville Tourists - 2,678
Augusta Green Jackets - 2,620
Rome Braves - 2,430
Hickory Crawdads - 2,117
West Virginia Power - 2,071
Hagerstown Suns - 1,466
Kannapolis Intimidators - 1,112
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby OBRAM » 3 months ago

I think free parking is crucial is a new Pawt stadium is built to get the attendance up there.
There is lots of free parking near the URI Athletic complexes.
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby Rhodymob05 » 3 months ago

Location Location Location gentlemen. That attendance HAS to increase if it was moved from a residential/industrial are ,which is somewhat difficult to find from rt 95 to straight downtown and literally right off the highway. I'd bet my house on it if I was a gambling man.
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby NYGFan_Section208 » 3 months ago

ramster wrote:Attendance will play a role in the Red Sox Decision on the Pawtucket Red Sox
This year PawSox averaged 6,069 for 60.5% Capacity. 10 of the 14 teams in the International League average more people per game than PawSox
The AA Affiliate Portland Sea Dogs averaged 5,456 for 75.2% Capacity
The A Affiliate Greenville Drive averaged 4,903 for 92.5% Capacity

AAA International League
Charlotte Knights - 9,104
Indianapolis Indians - 9,028
Columbus Clippers - 8,985
Lehigh Valley Iron Pigs - 8,422
Durham Bulls - 7,639
Buffalo Bisons - 7,469
Toledo Mud Hens - 7,428
Louisville Bats - 6,886
Scranton/Wilkes-Barre Rail Riders - 6,193
Rochester Red Wings - 6,075
Pawtucket Red Sox - 6,069 with McCoy Stadium Capacity = 10,030 = 60.5%
Norfolk Tides - 5,383
Syracuse Chiefs - 4,422
Gwinnett Braves - 3,104

AA - Eastern League
Reading Fightin Phils - 6,024
Richmond Flying Squirrels - 5,771
Hartford Yard Goats - 5,544
Portland Sea Dogs - 5,456 - Hadlock Field Capacity 7,368 = 75.2%
Trenton Thunder - 5,101
Akron RubberDucks - 5,058
New Hampshire Fisher Cats - 4,541
Altoona Curve - 4,230
Harrisburg Senators - 3,896
Bowie Baysox - 3,524
Binghamton Rumble Ponies - 3,141
Erie SeaWolves - 3,048

A -South Atlantic League Attendance 2017
Greensboro Grasshoppers - 5,265
Lakewood Blue Claws - 5,095
Columbia Fireflies - 4,938
Greenville Drive - 4,903 - Flour Stadium Capacity of 5,300 = 92.5%
Charleston River Dogs - 4,522
Lexington Legends - 4,221
Delmarva Shorebirds - 3,172
Asheville Tourists - 2,678
Augusta Green Jackets - 2,620
Rome Braves - 2,430
Hickory Crawdads - 2,117
West Virginia Power - 2,071
Hagerstown Suns - 1,466
Kannapolis Intimidators - 1,112



The Greenville Drive actually play at Fluor Field (not Flour Stadium)... Nice stadium with a GREAT location. Right in the middle of a nice downtown area, with lots of great bars and restaurants close by...a very good walk/bike area.
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby ramster » 3 months ago

Correct 208, it's the construction company. My mistake to make it sound like a cooking ingredient :lol: :lol:

They also have a successful Thursday Night $1.00 Beer Night.
Stadium built to resemble Fenway Park.
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby ramster » 3 months ago

Latest from the Projo and Worcester Mayor and a Worcester Councilwoman.
http://www.providencejournal.com/news/2 ... o-his-city
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby TruePoint » 3 months ago

ramster wrote:Attendance will play a role in the Red Sox Decision on the Pawtucket Red Sox
This year PawSox averaged 6,069 for 60.5% Capacity. 10 of the 14 teams in the International League average more people per game than PawSox

Pawtucket Red Sox - 6,069 with McCoy Stadium Capacity = 10,030 = 60.5%


If they want to cut that figure in half, they should move to Massachusetts.
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby RF1 » 3 months ago

Councilors love idea of wooing PawSox, but obstacles loom
Worcester Telegram & Gazette

Excerpt HIghlights:

    Massachusetts legislators told the Telegram & Gazette this week the Legislature is unlikely to put public dollars toward a stadium for a private team.

    “All things being equal, Worcester is probably going to have to pay a higher subsidy to get them,” said Victor A. Matheson, a College of the Holy Cross economics professor who specializes in stadiums

    “It sounds wonderful, doesn’t it?” Senate Majority Leader Harriette L. Chandler, D-Worcester, said this week of the PawSox moving to Worcester. ”(But) who’s going to pay for it?”

    the U.S. Census-designated Worcester Metropolitan Statistical Area is roughly 50 percent smaller than the Providence-Warwick Metropolitan Statistical Area, which includes Pawtucket.
Link:
http://www.telegram.com/news/20170812/c ... acles-loom
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby ramster » 3 months ago

The root cause is the poor attendance. Last year only 407,000 which was the lowest total since 1993. Tracking similar to that in 2017.
With the much larger metropolitan population base the people are coming to see the Paw Sox in steadily decking numbers. Look at Greenville and Portland, cities with much smaller population bases and their attendance is healthy.
Does a new stadium solve the Paw Sox attendance issue - that's the gamble


From article.......
The number of fans in the stands has been declining, they acknowledged. The Providence Journal reports the team’s attendance has been on a 10-year slide: the club’s 2016 attendance of 407,000 - a nightly average of a little more than 6,000 - ranked 10th in the 14-team International League. Since 2005, when the team drew more than 9,500 a game, the PawSox’ attendance has dropped 36 percent.

http://www.telegram.com/news/20170805/i ... -worcester

https://lintvwpri.files.wordpress.com/2 ... 0-2015.png
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby RF1 » 3 months ago

ramster wrote:Does a new stadium solve the Paw Sox attendance issue - that's the gamble



New ballparks usually provide a short term rise in attendance.

Moving to a much smaller metro area to draw attendance from for the long term is also a big gamble.
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby RhowdyRam02 » 3 months ago

There are two issues with attendance:

1. They're comparing the Pawsox attendance to when Red Sox fever was at its highest level in recent memory if not all time and there was an ongoing record sellout streak. Quite literally, if it was a beautiful night and you decided to go to a game your two options were deal with scalpers and make an expensive night even more costly or go to the PawSox, so of course attendance was ridiculously high. Let's not act like Boston is immune, their ratings were down so drastically they didn't resign the well liked Don Orsillo in an attempt to shake up the broadcast and increase ratings. Also, the farm system was better than and the organization kept players on a more defined course and they spent more time in AAA. Lester made 11 starts in 06 while Pedroia played in 111 games there that season. Ellsbury played almost all of 07 in Pawtucket. Contrast that to now. Betts played less than 99 games in Pawtucket in 14, Benintendi skipped AAA entirely and Devers was there for a week. They're comparing attendance to an unsustainable bubble and wondering why things have fallen off while they've made the product on the field worse.

2. The PawSox have shot themselves in the foot. From the disgusting opening negotiations when they tried to fleece the state to their constant trashing of McCoy, is it any wonder attendance is down under the Skeffington/Lucchino ownership? As a state resident I felt insulted with what they tried to pull and even trying to get passed that, why should I spend money to go to a park the owners say is terrible and substandard?
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby ramster » 3 months ago

Agree on your explanation of attendance. Tickets for the Red Sox were difficult to get in the stronger attendance years. But now many professional teams have seen attendance drop. Even the Red Sox in first place is not driving to unobtainable tickets like it used to be. People are not going to Paw Sox games so much because they can't get Red Sox tickets. Part of this is due to Stub Hub entities and easier access to tickets. Great telivisions with big screens and HD and ability to watch all 162 games on TV.

Plus free agency has hurt all sports. Used to be exciting regarding the draft, the quality of minor league systems, developing your own. Baltimore Orioles always has an exceptional farm system in the Earl Weaver days. Now Red Sox and Yankees and others just open the pocketbooks. Still get some minor league successes but free agency has diminished the interest of the Minor League Development systems.

On top of that, the Handling of the possible new stadium by the Red Sox, Paw Sox, Providence, Pawtucket, State of Rhode Island.....has been horrific.

Paw Sox could also explore outside of New England. Many of the top performing minor league teams in terms of attendance do not have a major league team within easy driving distance and manage the organization very well in terms of promotions.

Paw Sox at the 6000 per game and only 400,000 per season looks like the ongoing level.
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby RF1 » 3 months ago

I agree with the above two posts regarding the reasons for the decline in attendance. I find it insulting when Pawsox ownership uses McCoy Stadium as a reason for the drop. Everyone I have ever taken to a game there loves the place along with its mostly free parking and can't understand why they would ever want to move. Ownership is just trying to justify a new stadium. The use of McCoy as an attendance excuse is without merit.
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby RhowdyRam02 » 3 months ago

I'm not sure free agency really matters for this. Free agency really peaked in the early 2000's and has dropped off over the last five years or so. With the luxury tax and greater revenue sharing more teams are keeping their own players, big market teams can't or won't load up like they used to, and there's a greater emphasis on young, athletic players with steroids not as big a part of the game.
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby UCH21377 » 3 months ago

I think a big issue for AAA teams is that the major prospects basically skip it, and AAA becomes a home for retreads, career minor leaguers, and emergency replacements. I'd rather watch the AA team.
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby ramster » 3 months ago

Free agency doesn't matter much? As I'm sitting here watching Chris Sale pitch against the Yankees with the Cy Young and The MVP both very much within his reach. Take Sale and Price off the Red Sox and they are not a playoff team.
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby ram1980 » 3 months ago

Sale was acquired in a trade.. Not free agency.. And what has price given this team this year other than headaches???
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby ramster » 3 months ago

ram1980 wrote:Sale was acquired in a trade.. Not free agency.. And what has price given this team this year other than headaches???

Right, my bad. I never liked Price. Was not a good acquisition. Sale was headed for Free Agency.
Point is Free Agency has hurt the teams without money and helped teams with money. Yankees and Red Sox will always be at the top of their division, if they falter they just reopen the pocketbook.
Free Agency has made a joke of the NBA.
Tickets to NFL games have skyrocketed, and continue to climb.
PSLs and Ticket prices for the new LA team are outrageous.
Greed, greed, greed.
And the lower level teams in terms of payroll don't stand a chance
It's part of the reason why some Minor League Baseball Teams have been successful in improving attendance. Average family can't afford many professional games.
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby ramster » 3 months ago

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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby RF1 » 3 months ago

Sunday's game was actually the third straight sellout at McCoy Stadium. The three-day weekend homestand attendance total of 31,639 marks the largest August weekend attendance total at McCoy Stadium in seven years - since August 13-15 of 2010, when a total of 32,378 fans attended those three games at McCoy.

08/11/17 FRI 10,059
08/12/17 SAT 11,515
08/13/17 SUN 10,065

The attendance of the early 2000 seasons along with this past weekend show that the potential for big crowds is there. It just has to be correctly tapped into.
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby Rhodymob05 » 3 months ago

I hear some people calling on local radio and complaining about attendance and interest in general, the truth is, those people never liked baseball in their lives to begin with and just like spreading propaganda. These new numbers need to be advertised and taken advantage of by the State and Pawtucket as well as the owners.
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby RF1 » 3 months ago

Worcester City Council votes in support of effort to woo PawSox from Rhode Island

http://www.providencejournal.com/news/2 ... ode-island
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby RhowdyRam02 » 3 months ago

That and about $40 million will get them a minor league team. Unfortunately for them the easy part was last night.
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby Rhodymob05 » 3 months ago

I am so sick and tired of "what do we need that for" every time there potential development or change in this state, completely insane. While Massachusetts continues to suck us dry. Take the p Bruins while you're at it. Then the dunk would close.
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby SGreenwell » 3 months ago

Rhodymob05 wrote:I am so sick and tired of "what do we need that for" every time there potential development or change in this state, completely insane. While Massachusetts continues to suck us dry. Take the p Bruins while you're at it. Then the dunk would close.

I'm sick and tired of billionaire sports team owners demanding subsidies for their private business though. ;) Why the heck should Worcester, or any other place, give the Red Sox $40M? That's like half of Pablo Sandoval's salary, which they just wrote off without much stress. In the past, the reason would be, "Because someone else will," but more and more places are cognizant of the fact that investing in pro sports is usually a poor return on investment.
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby ramster » 3 months ago

Using logic makes sense until it comes to a State that would give a $75,000,000 loan to a former RedSox pitcher for a computer game company. Shilling then moved his company from MA to RI as part of the deal. After suing, RI Taxpayers still are on the hook for about half that amount - a travesty.
Paw Sox are a tradition in RI since the early 70's. Would be a shame if RI loses this team. I'll be surprised if RI is able to keep the Paw Sox here.
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby Rhodymob05 » 3 months ago

I see the issues with the funding aspects, although they have been transparent and created some interesting diagrams showing who pays what, and about the possible return on investment. Everything in life is a risk, but it just seems like a good enough deal to me. I just wish people would stop seeing this as "why help a billionaire"....because he can give us what any sports fan wants, a beautiful new stadium so we can continue those same traditions since the early 70s and to give the dying city of Pawtucket a jump start. Here is a good article from the projo which lays out some information to distinguish this deal with the 38 studios.

http://www.providencejournal.com/news/2 ... udios-deal
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Re: Pawsox Sold, Potentially Moving

Unread postby SGreenwell » 3 months ago

Rhodymob05 wrote:I see the issues with the funding aspects, although they have been transparent and created some interesting diagrams showing who pays what, and about the possible return on investment. Everything in life is a risk, but it just seems like a good enough deal to me. I just wish people would stop seeing this as "why help a billionaire"....because he can give us what any sports fan wants, a beautiful new stadium so we can continue those same traditions since the early 70s and to give the dying city of Pawtucket a jump start. Not to defend him (luhccino) but I'm pretty sure you're supposed to make money in life.

Pretty much every study on ballparks and stadiums shows that it doesn't have much of an economic impact, though. On game days, sure, you do OK with people in the immediate area. But even MLB teams only play 81 home games, meaning you usually have prime city real estate dormant for the other 180 days (365 minus weekends). The jobs you're creating are usually seasonal or temporary as a result.

I understand there can be a prestige or pride thing associated with having a pro sports team, but if you wanted to actually improve the city, a better option would just be to give the check to Google or Amazon or Good Business Of Your Choice Here, and tell them it's $40M free as long as they stay for X years. (This option usually isn't politically tenable though, whereas in the past it was usually easier to pass or get support for some sort of stadium bond.)

As Ramster points out, RI did this with 38 Studios. I'm not against that, I just kind of wish the state had chosen an established company in a growing industry, instead of giving it a guy with almost no experience in a new field that's incredibly volatile.
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