PATRIOTS-RAVENS

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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

Unread post by TruePoint »

adam914 wrote:
SmartyBarrett wrote: Also, NDGT is basing his science on a report that has been reported to be false.
Actually, he is basing it off of words that came out of Belichick's mouth in his press conference.
I Love NDGT. Love him. But here he is out of his depth, not with respect to the science part of it, but with respect to his understanding of (1) the explanation Belichick gave and (2) the particulars of footballs and how they behave with respect to air pressure.

I've actually also seen other people attack him on a technical basis but I don't know enough to mediate that argument:
Either this twitter post was not from NdGT, or he doesn't know anything about what happened.

It was 7%.

1-(10.5/12.5) = 15% is a misconception that relies on gauge pressure and not absolute pressure. If the balls really only had 12.5 psi in them, the 14.7 psi atmosphere would crush them like beer cans under a car tire.

The correct calculation with absolute pressure is 1-(25.2/27.2) = 7%
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

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And who is that quote from above?
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

Unread post by rambone 78 »

Just speculating, TP. It makes you wonder, that's all.

If it's as black and white as that, this investigation shouldn't take too long.

Just the possibility that they MIGHT have video of it, will have everybody flipping out until it's either proved or disproved.

Question though, if nothing was done to the balls, then why would someone take them to the locker room, and not just leave them on the field?

Trying to hide something, perhaps?
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

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adam914 wrote:And who is that quote from above?
A commenter on deadspin, who I feel safe in assuming is a scientist (haha - I know. But I have seen that distinction about gauge pressure vs. absolute pressure repeatedly as this thing has been debated all week).

Also keep in mind that physicists from MIT, Harvard, Carnegie Melon and others have supported (and probably helped develop) Belichick's "theory." So it isn't like Bill Nye and NDGT are the only people who have weighed in on it.
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

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rambone 78 wrote:Just speculating, TP. It makes you wonder, that's all.

If it's as black and white as that, this investigation shouldn't take too long.

Just the possibility that they MIGHT have video of it, will have everybody flipping out until it's either proved or disproved.

Question though, if nothing was done to the balls, then why would someone take them to the locker room, and not just leave them on the field?

Trying to hide something, perhaps?
I get speculating. It is fun! But I think what happens often is people confuse their own speculation with actual facts and begin jumping to conclusions based on that. That is all I am trying to avoid here.
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

Unread post by rambone 78 »

This whole situation has officially entered the Twilight Zone.

Or Bizarro World, or something.
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

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TruePoint wrote:
adam914 wrote:
SmartyBarrett wrote: Also, NDGT is basing his science on a report that has been reported to be false.
Actually, he is basing it off of words that came out of Belichick's mouth in his press conference.
I Love NDGT. Love him. But here he is out of his depth, not with respect to the science part of it, but with respect to his understanding of (1) the explanation Belichick gave and (2) the particulars of footballs and how they behave with respect to air pressure.

I've actually also seen other people attack him on a technical basis but I don't know enough to mediate that argument:
Either this twitter post was not from NdGT, or he doesn't know anything about what happened.

It was 7%.

1-(10.5/12.5) = 15% is a misconception that relies on gauge pressure and not absolute pressure. If the balls really only had 12.5 psi in them, the 14.7 psi atmosphere would crush them like beer cans under a car tire.

The correct calculation with absolute pressure is 1-(25.2/27.2) = 7%

To quote(loosely) Chevy Chase, "I was told there would be no math."
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

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So they may drag this out until after the Super Bowl, but it is pretty much over: according to PFT, the Glazer video shows the ball boy bringing all 24 game balls (Pats and Colts) into a bathroom (no camera inside), where he stayed for 90 seconds. The video is a Patriots security video they voluntarily supplied to the League early last week.

So unless he admits to wrongdoing, nobody will ever be able to say for sure that the Patriots did anything to the balls. Either you believe a kid could (and would) pull 12 (or 11) balls out of a bag and deflate them all in 90 seconds, or you don't. Pats fans will say "no way" and everyone else will say "of course," but the NFL cannot possibly PROVE anything. You can now clearly see the strategy behind Belichick's press conference - they were trying to get an alternative explanation/narrative out before word of this leaked.
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

Unread post by scine20 »

Of course the NFL can't prove anything. I'm sure the Patriots destroyed all relevant information before the NFL had a chance to get to it. And Kraft knows this which is why he had his press conference last night.

They're guilty as hell in public opinion. Outside of NE no one believes them. And that press conference from Belichick was downright creepy. On Thursday he knew nothing on the subject and on Saturday he was suddenly an expert?

And why didn't the balls deflate one bit in the 2nd half? Wouldn't they deflate even more since it was colder in the 2nd half than the first?
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

Unread post by rambone 78 »

The Pats are desperate. It's obvious.

Like you said, they are guilty in the court of public opinion, no matter what the NFL finds or doesn't find.

The fact that this investigation will last for some time, tells you something is up.

The Pats did it to themselves, no one else. They are twisting in the wind.

It will never go away, whether Pats fans like it or not. They will always be looked at with suspicion.
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

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adam914 wrote:
SmartyBarrett wrote: Also, NDGT is basing his science on a report that has been reported to be false.
Actually, he is basing it off of words that came out of Belichick's mouth in his press conference.
It has been reported that the Patriots footballs were not at 10.5 as originally reported (they were closer to 11.5... reportedly), which would throw off his math considerably. I don't recall BB using specifics as to what the Pats footballs were tested at... just what they started at.

Also, it's so much easier to type about this thing than it is to talk about it. If I had a nickel for every time i went back and changed "balls" to "footballs"....
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

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Scone, Rambone....you guys are hilarious. I'm sorry you didn't get what you wanted, but I think it is obvious at this point that this was much ado about nothing. The only good thing about it is it will likely get us a new commissioner.

We're on to Seattle.
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

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TruePoint wrote: We're on to Seattle.
Wait what, is there a game this week or something?
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

Unread post by rambone 78 »

On espn.com there's a poll: Who do you want to see win the SB?

As to who's winning that poll?

Hint: It's not the Pats.

Considering Seattle isn't exactly the most popular team out there either, that's saying something.
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

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Brian Urlacher was on Mike and Mike today from AZ......he says the fan populous outside of NE hates the Patriots because they win so much...and they look for any reason to convince themselves that they must cheat to do it.....

...he admitted that he was jealous of them as a player......but admitted that they are a great team and that is why they win....
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

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rambone 78 wrote:On espn.com there's a poll: Who do you want to see win the SB?

As to who's winning that poll?

Hint: It's not the Pats.
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

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Alright its time to move this thread to a topic that is actually useful. Should I bet on heads or tails for the coin toss? Let's use some science for something that really matters!
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

Unread post by ramfan85 »

It's uncanny how many times the Pats have won the opening coin toss this year. That looks like the best bet of the day.

This buildup has been a complete clusterfuck. Totally unfair to the 2 best teams in the NFL. I think we all can agree on that.
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

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ramfan85 wrote:It's uncanny how many times the Pats have won the opening coin toss this year. That looks like the best bet of the day..
Clearly cheating on the coin toss.</scine20>
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Unread post by banderson1311 »

I may be missing some theories but it sounds to me like we're down to the following:
  • The Patriots supplied footballs that were under the minimum PSI and the officials didn't notice.
  • The Patriots supplied footballs that were at the exact minimum PSI which passed inspection and then deflated due to weather.
  • The Patriots supplied footballs that were at the exact minimum PSI which passed inspection and then a ball boy deflated them in the bathroom in 90 seconds.
I may be a footie-pajama wearing Pats fan but it seems to me the first scenario is by far the most likely and the 3rd is by far the least likely. Yet somehow over half of America is convinced that the ball boy is the culprit. I think we've all been reading a few too many Billy Mumphrey stories.

Anyway, it should be a fun game that will come down to the last minute if past Pats Super Bowls are any indication.
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

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banderson1311 wrote:I may be missing some theories but it sounds to me like we're down to the following:
  • The Patriots supplied footballs that were under the minimum PSI and the officials didn't notice.
  • The Patriots supplied footballs that were at the exact minimum PSI which passed inspection and then deflated due to weather.
  • The Patriots supplied footballs that were at the exact minimum PSI which passed inspection and then a ball boy deflated them in the bathroom in 90 seconds.
I may be a footie-pajama wearing Pats fan but it seems to me the first scenario is by far the most likely and the 3rd is by far the least likely. Yet somehow over half of America is convinced that the ball boy is the culprit. I think we've all been reading a few too many Billy Mumphrey stories.

Anyway, it should be a fun game that will come down to the last minute if past Pats Super Bowls are any indication.
Clearly the bathroom was being used to stage a second bag of balls that were already deflated and he simply swapped them in the 90 seconds and still had time to drain the lizard.
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

Unread post by scine20 »

TruePoint wrote:Scone, Rambone....you guys are hilarious. I'm sorry you didn't get what you wanted, but I think it is obvious at this point that this was much ado about nothing. The only good thing about it is it will likely get us a new commissioner.

We're on to Seattle.
That's not happening either unfortunately.

In fact my guess is that Goodell gave Kraft approval to give that lecture last night. The idea is to create the illusion that Kraft and Goodell aren't tight anymore so that the public doesn't think that there's a conflict of interest. So when Goodell announces that there aren't any findings the public doesn't yell and scream about his relationship with Kraft.

It was a brilliant plan, really.
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

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ramfan85 wrote:It's uncanny how many times the Pats have won the opening coin toss this year. That looks like the best bet of the day.

This buildup has been a complete clusterfuck. Totally unfair to the 2 best teams in the NFL. I think we all can agree on that.
14 times in 18 games to be exact.

I'd like to see what it's been in other years.
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

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banderson1311 wrote:I may be missing some theories but it sounds to me like we're down to the following:
  • The Patriots supplied footballs that were under the minimum PSI and the officials didn't notice.
  • The Patriots supplied footballs that were at the exact minimum PSI which passed inspection and then deflated due to weather.
  • The Patriots supplied footballs that were at the exact minimum PSI which passed inspection and then a ball boy deflated them in the bathroom in 90 seconds.
I may be a footie-pajama wearing Pats fan but it seems to me the first scenario is by far the most likely and the 3rd is by far the least likely. Yet somehow over half of America is convinced that the ball boy is the culprit. I think we've all been reading a few too many Billy Mumphrey stories.

Anyway, it should be a fun game that will come down to the last minute if past Pats Super Bowls are any indication.
The most likely scenario is that everyone in NE is lying and they destroyed the evidence before anyone could find it.
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

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scine20 wrote:
banderson1311 wrote:I may be missing some theories but it sounds to me like we're down to the following:
  • The Patriots supplied footballs that were under the minimum PSI and the officials didn't notice.
  • The Patriots supplied footballs that were at the exact minimum PSI which passed inspection and then deflated due to weather.
  • The Patriots supplied footballs that were at the exact minimum PSI which passed inspection and then a ball boy deflated them in the bathroom in 90 seconds.
I may be a footie-pajama wearing Pats fan but it seems to me the first scenario is by far the most likely and the 3rd is by far the least likely. Yet somehow over half of America is convinced that the ball boy is the culprit. I think we've all been reading a few too many Billy Mumphrey stories.

Anyway, it should be a fun game that will come down to the last minute if past Pats Super Bowls are any indication.
The most likely scenario is that everyone in NE is lying and they destroyed the evidence before anyone could find it.
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

Unread post by rodfromcranston »

Gee, and ESPN poll. Wowie! Wow!
Very scientific.
Who gives a fat rat's ass about the obvious.
ESPN has pushed this absurd story harder than anyone.
They should stick to showing top 10 highlights about
some foreign soccer crap that nobody cares about.
Either that or dunks, because we all know, that's all there is to basketball,
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

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scine20 wrote:
rambone 78 wrote:scine, I think we're up against it here.

Goodell and Kraft are too buddy-buddy to have anything big come down.

The Pats will get slapped on the wrist after the SB, and no more.

The Rice situation has spooked him big time. He's not going to mess with his baby [the SB that is].
This new guy that they're investigating is interesting. There's no way that anyone will believe that he did it on his own. So if he did it it had to be ordered by someone else. And that likely is Brady. Or possibly Belichick. But there's no way that Brady didn't know. He's lying through his teeth. I just don't see how the NFL will get away without leveling punishment on NE, even if Goodell is friendly with Kraft. Goodell does have a job to do and if he won't do it because of his relationship with an owner then he should be replaced.

By the way did you see the fumble stat study? The study alone shows that there's a huge discrepancy between NE and other teams.

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/bl ... impossible
http://regressing.deadspin.com/why-thos ... socialflow
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

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There's always an excuse for every allegation against the Patriots or any stats that support it.

It's amazing viewing NE related message boards and comparing them to the boards around the country.

The defending and denial is amazing.
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

Unread post by Ramulous »

It goes both ways scine.......Pats haters think there is a communist under every stone too....
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

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scine20 wrote:There's always an excuse for every allegation against the Patriots or any stats that support it.

It's amazing viewing NE related message boards and comparing them to the boards around the country.

The defending and denial is amazing.
Well that is because every allegation against the Patriots is manufactured garbage dreamt up by inferior organizations and their fans.

And all message boards are going to be a little irrational - 90% of NFL fans are dumb (including Patriots fans).
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

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TruePoint wrote:
scine20 wrote:There's always an excuse for every allegation against the Patriots or any stats that support it.

It's amazing viewing NE related message boards and comparing them to the boards around the country.

The defending and denial is amazing.
Well that is because every allegation against the Patriots is manufactured garbage dreamt up by inferior organizations and their fans.

And all message boards are going to be a little irrational - 90% of NFL fans are dumb (including Patriots fans).
Where are the allegations for the other teams?

There have been many successful teams over the years. In other sports too. Yet it's always the Patriots.
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Ramulous wrote:It goes both ways scine.......Pats haters think there is a communist under every stone too....
It's not just NE haters. It's NFL fans sick of this garbage with this team.

I don't know about you but one of the great sports about sports is a level playing field. And when that starts to come into question then people get angry.

Like I've been saying, most people outside of NE think that the Patriots are cheaters. That's just the way it is. They're also sick of their self-righteous attitude. You don't get this stuff with the Broncos or Packers or Steelers or Giants or Colts, teams that have been highly successful during NE's run.

The Patriots success mirrors the Spurs. If the Patriots could just act like the Spurs none of this garbage would go on.
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

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scine20 wrote:
TruePoint wrote:
scine20 wrote:There's always an excuse for every allegation against the Patriots or any stats that support it.

It's amazing viewing NE related message boards and comparing them to the boards around the country.

The defending and denial is amazing.
Well that is because every allegation against the Patriots is manufactured garbage dreamt up by inferior organizations and their fans.

And all message boards are going to be a little irrational - 90% of NFL fans are dumb (including Patriots fans).
Where are the allegations for the other teams?

There have been many successful teams over the years. In other sports too. Yet it's always the Patriots.

No, it isn't. There are plenty of allegations against other teams, people just forget them because they're so preoccupied with chasing the Patriots around to see if they can catch them rolling through a stop sign.

The Broncos egregiously violated the salary cap in order to win two Super Bowls, but they aren't accused of having a culture of cheating. The Cowboys and Redskins also have violated the salary cap.

The Jets and Steelers had players and coaches make concerted efforts to interfere with play on the field from the sideline, and the Jets also have been charged with tampering more times than anyone can count. They aren't considered to have a culture of cheating.

The Panthers team that lost to the Patriots in the Super Bowl was the subject of a federal investigation about steroid use, the Seahawks appear to have instituted a organizational program of PED use, and the Bucs and 49ers were recently the subject of federal probes about their practices surrounding the use of pain killers. None of those franchises are said to have a culture of cheating.

The Lions have repeatedly been penalized for illegally trying to injure opposing players laying on ground after plays. The Saints organization was convicted of illegally running a pay-to-injure program. The Redskins forced a severely injured and compromised QB to continue playing in clear circumvention of protocol, and countless other teams have required concussed players to stay in games without submitting to the League mandated protocols. They aren't said to have a culture of cheating.

The Colts were caught illegally pumping in crowd noise via their PA system while the opposing team was on offense. Are they labeled as cheaters?

The Packers QB has admitted to doing the same thing the Patriots are accused of doing now. Cheater?

The Browns are under investigation for illegal communications with the sideline during games. Do they have a culture of cheating?

The Chiefs bugged the visitor lockerroom. Cheating, right?

The Raiders have been the Raiders for 50 years. The Ravens have harbored and covered up for a murderer, a drug trafficker and numerous spousal abusers. The Vikings have had high profile PED and sex trafficking cases. Are those organizations said to have no regard for league rules or the integrity of the game?

That is just off the top of my head. If I wanted to dig something up on every team, I could. The difference between the Patriots and all those teams is that their coach is regarded as an asshole by the media (who controls these narratives) and other teams are sick and tired of them being good every year. That's it.
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

Unread post by ramfan85 »

Great post, TP. To me, the worst was the Saints. Their actions went way beyond anything the Pats have been accused of. Trying to intentionally injure and possibly costing players their livelihood is unconscionable.
When Sean Peyton returned to the sidelines, he was hailed like Caesar returning to Rome. Yet, not much mention of that this year on the immortal ESPN. Not to the extent that this is going to be remembered.

Note: If I was more talented on the computer, I'd post that video from Gladiator.
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

Unread post by adam914 »

That Regressing article is hilarious. You could literally say the exact same thing about any stats based argument ever.
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

Unread post by TruePoint »

adam914 wrote:That Regressing article is hilarious. You could literally say the exact same thing about any stats based argument ever.
How about this one?

http://soshcentral.com/football-science ... mble-rate/
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Unread post by adam914 »

Its the same thing, you can use certain data points to fit just about any story you want to tell. You'll notice I never said Sharp (or the regressing article) were "right", I just thought that the article itself was pretty ridiculous.
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

Unread post by TruePoint »

I think if you are the one trying to make the case, you have the burden of proof. The onus is on you to be bullet proof. I think both articles raise pretty good points to undermine the methodology of the Sharp article(s). They aren't trying to make any case, other than that Sharp's case is not very useful.
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

Unread post by ATPTourFan »

scine20 wrote:There's always an excuse for every allegation against the Patriots or any stats that support it.

It's amazing viewing NE related message boards and comparing them to the boards around the country.

The defending and denial is amazing.
Or, the ratio of complete bullshit conspiracies/theories to actual incidents of wrongdoing is so skewed to the former that Patriots fans must continually smack down the continuous flow of stupidity.
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

Unread post by SmartyBarrett »

scine20 wrote:Where are the allegations for the other teams?
There's this: http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/12142 ... line-games

I love how this story is flying under the radar. If the Patriots were caught doing this the internet would break.
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

Unread post by ATPTourFan »

But the Browns don't win every year and beat every one else's favorite teams along the way, so it literally doesn't matter to the NFL's fans and media.
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

Unread post by SmartyBarrett »

ATPTourFan wrote:But the Browns don't win every year and beat every one else's favorite teams along the way, so it literally doesn't matter to the NFL's fans and media.
Exactly. Or when the Panthers and Vikings were blatantly heating footballs on the sideline this year. All that happened there was the NFL sent them a letter saying "Please don't do that again."
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

Unread post by scine20 »

If Brady, Belichick and Kraft would have just told the truth and not come up with some BS science nonsense none of this would be an issue.
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

Unread post by rodfromcranston »

Bullshit! This is just what ESPN, and the Pats haters like you wanted.
Brady, Belichick and Kraft responded to the phony shit storm created
by jealous haters.
I love that Kraft pointed the gun at the NFL.
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

Unread post by ramster »

Whine,whine,whine
Excuses,excuses,excuses
Patriots destroyed Indianapolis in the AFC Championship. Destroyed them, humiliated them
Jim Baron complained about air pressure in balls impacting his team's play
Everyone who thinks that this is a relevant issue should jump on the Jim Baron and wagon
What did the ball boy do for 90 seconds behind closed doors? Really? Seriously?

What a bunch of useless, meaningless propaganda.
Honestly has to be the most classic much adeu about nothing that there has ever been and certainly the longest.
Best thing is it has kept that moron Sherman out of the headlines
I hope the patriots mangle the Seahawks and win by 60 going ahead 40 to nothing in the first quarter
Jamie Collins shows the world his immense talent!!!!!!

People whining about deflated footballs need to drop it for the shear stupidity and relevantlessness of it all.
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

Unread post by TruePoint »

Goodell having to hand the trophy to Kraft and/or Belichick after the game on Sunday will be like porn for me. They should make him genuflect.
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

Unread post by ramster »

He is a spineless idiot.
I could care less about Goodell, all sportscasters, all talk show hosts and guests, all people who wrote stories on this stupid issue, even the discussion on threads like this. It is all stupid, a waste of time, inane..... And a ton of other words I am too tired to list because of this stupidity.
What a colossal waste of time.
Makes me want to watch the game without sound on Sunday.
My only two posts on this subject
Reminds me of Jim Baron threads - I'd rather watch paint dry than hear any more about this. A truly black eye on professional football, football sportscasters and journalists.
Hope the patriots win 60-0 and refuse any and all post game interviews.
Just fedx the trophy back to Boston
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

Unread post by TruePoint »

It is not going to stop brain dead analysts like Cris Carter from prattling on about what a huge advantage the Patriots got illegally. Lol. All of this could have been avoided had Kraft allowed the NFL to put the screws to Irsay last summer. That man better be careful because the next time he does anything unbecoming the League is going to come down on him like a ton of bricks, and I don't have a lot of confidence he is capable of keeping himself out of trouble.
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Re: PATRIOTS-RAVENS

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Super Bowl Champions - New England Patriots!!!!
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