PATRIOTS-RAVENS

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 9 years ago

Just making a general statement that I wholeheartedly believe. Not directed at anyone in particular. As far as what he said about it, that is not disputed by anyone including the league. It's just a matter of whether people grasp it or not.

rambone 78 · Unread post by **rambone 78** » 9 years ago

TP, your choice of words made it pretty obvious that it was directed at me.

Uncalled for.

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 9 years ago

My apologies if you took it that way. Was not my intent.

Ramulous · Unread post by **Ramulous** » 9 years ago

Were the ball boys and the equipment manager in the room when the official checked and approved the balls? Did they see them metered or just given a squeeze and flipped around ? What did they tell the NFL investigator?

SmartyBarrett · Unread post by **SmartyBarrett** » 9 years ago

TruePoint wrote:That they would come out and say they are 100% sure they didn't do anything wrong means they don't think the NFL can get anything on them. If they are proven to be liars, sure. There will be hell to pay and that starts with Bill losing his job and #12 ruining his reputation. But that they are willing to put that on the line has to be viewed as a STRONG indication of their innocence in the absence of the NFL completely proving beyond all doubt that they are straight lying. People with something to hide don't do that.

The best part of today was him completely tearing down the significance of spygate in about three sentences. Bill was perfect today.

Yes, all of this. Also, just putting this out there as something to consider: maybe they actually have nothing to hide. Why else would they have today's press conference? Would be an ENORMOUS risk, as Rambone points out. The Patriots may be a lot of things, but they're not stupid.

ramfan85 · Unread post by **ramfan85** » 9 years ago

I am a Pats fan. But, I have to admit that Bill sounded very convincing today. I sure hope he's right. I wonder when they'll start preparing for Seattle?
What a shitty week.

adam914 · Unread post by **adam914** » 9 years ago

TruePoint wrote:I'm really sorry, man. You guys almost had this one. Almost. I know it would have made your season since you couldn't close on the playoff berth.

I'm still trying to figure out what this even means? I think it was directed at me since it was right after my post, but I'm not sure.

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 9 years ago

Did you make the playoffs? Did you want ballghazi to be a thing? (I love you man)

Unread post by **ATPTourFan** » 9 years ago

There's very little wiggle room for wrongdoing after saying that they followed every letter of the law 100%. Not sure how else anyone outside the Patriots and NFL investigation could think that the Patriots are in any way worried now.

Clearly, the Patriots learned that there was no wrongdoing and there's a repeatable, testable theory/explanation for the change in THEIR game balls.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was no fine or punishment at all coming from the NFL.

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 9 years ago

There may be some small slap on the wrist for actually playing with underinflated footballs, but certainly nobody will be suspended or anything (assuming Bill is not a crazy person knowingly lying his face off).

scine20 · Unread post by **scine20** » 9 years ago

I come at this from a different angle than most of you.

I do not like the Patriots. At all. I think they're a slimy organization and have heard stories about Kraft that would blow your mind, mostly about his business and personal ethics, of which he has none. He has a great reputation but trust me he isn't what he appears. And the stuff with his wife was an absolute joke as I have been told by highly credible people that the guy was having affairs for years on her.

Anyways, I think that he festers this kind of attitude. If Kraft really cared about this stuff Belichick would have been fired after 2007. I do not believe he is innocent of any of this at all. I am also someone who believes that they have been pushing the envelope since 2000 (the year before Brady even started). I don't think the cheating ever stopped, I just think they've found different ways to do it (such as deflating balls) and other ways that we'll never know about.

I honestly do not dislike Belichick. BUT I think he is a pathological liar and what he said yesterday just added fuel. I believe that this was all planned on Wednesday before the two Thursday press conferences. And now Belichick has everyone believing that he didn't know a thing. Well SOMEONE had to know. Indianapolis's balls did not have air come out but yet NE had 11 of 12 come out. How exactly did that happen. You know who would know? The equipment manager. Do you guys know who that is? Steve Belichick, Bill's son, who leads a team of four as reported by Chris Russo. It's not available on the Internet. HOWEVER, I did look yesterday after hearing this for all equipment managers. Amazingly, 31 of 32 teams list their equipment staff right on their website. Guess who doesn't. Steve Belichick is listed on the staff as a coach with no responsibility given. Good luck trying to find on the Internet who the Patriots current equipment manager is. You won't. But obviously of all people, aside from the QB, the equipment manager would know what's going on with the balls. Bill's obviously not going to sell his son out.

So since 2001 the following teams or employees of teams have accused the Patriots of cheating in some way: NY Jets, Baltimore, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh (twice), Houston, Indianapolis (three times), Jacksonville (twice), Detroit, Carolina and St. Louis. That is almost 1/3 of NFL teams. And this is only what's been reported. In fact just the other night a former TE for the Jaguars, George Wrighster, was on the radio and had been on the Jaguars in both the 2005 and 2007 playoff games. He said in both games the head set was turned off and when they came out for the 2nd half the Patriots side of the field was nice and warm while Jacksonville's was freezing. So far 3 teams have accused the Patriots of turning the head set off on them during drives and another accused them of bugging the locker room.

To conclude, I think Belichick and Brady knew exactly what was going on, I think that Thursday and yesterday have been planned and I do not expect any significant penalties mainly because of Goodell's relationship with Kraft. I trust nothing of what Goodell (from Spygate to the Ray Rice incident), Belichick and Kraft say. I also think that Brady's legacy should take a HUGE hit because this was clearly done for his benefit and he got on the stage and flat out lied about this whole thing. Which means, in my opinion at least, that this has been going on for a while. Had he said yeah, we did it, I honestly had no idea it was a rule, I apologize, etc, etc I'd have gained so much respect for him. But he didn't. And you'd have to be incredibly biased to think that Brady had no idea that there was a change in ball weight. And has he ever looked more nervous and uncomfortable? If this was New Orleans as we've seen they'd probably have already suspended Belichick for next year because "ignorance is not an excuse." But because the Patriots are owned by Bob Kraft and not Tom Benson you will see nothing of the sort.

Someone HAD to know what happened. Either it was the equipment manager, the head coach, the quarterback, or a combination of the three.

Sorry for my rant, I know the opinion is not popular here, but it is what it is.

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 9 years ago

I could argue that point by point, but I doubt anyone wants to read that and I'm sure you're not open to changing your mind on any of that. All I'll say is that I think most of that is hype and sour grapes and not really rooted in reality.

scine20 · Unread post by **scine20** » 9 years ago

TruePoint wrote:I could argue that point by point, but I doubt anyone wants to read that and I'm sure you're not open to changing your mind on any of that. All I'll say is that I think most of that is hype and sour grapes and not really rooted in reality.

None of it is sour grapes. I've had these opinions about this organization for a long time (since 1997) and heard about Kraft right after he bought the team. I knew that you and most others would not agree with me because the majority of posters here are Patriots fans given that this is a Rhode Island based message board.

You can dislike a franchise you know and have none of it be sour grapes. I have my reasons for feeling how I do. I can assure you that none of it is jealousy. I do not like immoral people and I believe the Patriots as an organization are immoral and Kraft, Belichick and Brady are immoral people. And let's not even get started about Ernie Adams, who I believe is the real ring leader in all of these cheating strategies.

I think Kraft basically tells Goodell what to do and there's no way you can convince me otherwise.

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 9 years ago

I think we need to step back a bit and put some things in perspective a little. I think accurately judging someone's character based on the way the media portrays them as it relates to sports is a hopeless endeavor. You may have heard a rumor about Bob Kraft, and that rumor may or not be true. But in reality you do not know enough about any of those guys, or any other athlete or coach, to really assess whether they are "immoral" or not.

rambone 78 · Unread post by **rambone 78** » 9 years ago

Scine, what you're saying about Kraft and his business dealings have truth to it.

I lived in Montville, CT for a number of years, and Kraft owns a containerboard company there.

A few years ago, there was a lawsuit involving that company, and Kraft and his lawyers won a big settlement against the town. The town's tax rate had to go up, because of that deal. We all paid for it.

I don't know many of the details, but from what I heard, they were ruthless beyond imagination. Kraft only cares about ONE thing, and that's his money.

Some of the other stuff I've heard about too. That organization truly does do whatever it takes to win, legally or otherwise.

Some Pats fans know this, but as long as they win, they don't care.

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 9 years ago

I mean....if he won the lawsuit he was obviously entitled to the money. Not sure I've ever heard of criticizing someone for winning a lawsuit. Should he just forego money he is legally entitled to so your taxes don't go up?

Ramulous · Unread post by **Ramulous** » 9 years ago

If over-inflating the ball or under-inflating the ball helps Rhody win I am in favor of it.....

....if we hold the other guys shirts and shorts so they can't move and we win....I am in favor of it.....

.....if we trash-talk during the game and insult the other team during the game.....and we win .....I am in favor of it...

....if we bully the refs into making calls in our favor and we win.....I am in favor of it....

.....if Umass or pc does it it is cheating and I am vehemently opposed to it....

....The same thing with the Patriots for me......and the same things for the Giants for Rambone....and for other of our fans who like other teams and hate the Patriots.....

....and I don't care how immoral or moral President Dooley, AD Borg and coach Hurley are or appear to be.....

.....we are fans.....logic and reason go out the window....

scine20 · Unread post by **scine20** » 9 years ago

TruePoint wrote:I think we need to step back a bit and put some things in perspective a little. I think accurately judging someone's character based on the way the media portrays them as it relates to sports is a hopeless endeavor. You may have heard a rumor about Bob Kraft, and that rumor may or not be true. But in reality you do not know enough about any of those guys, or any other athlete or coach, to really assess whether they are "immoral" or not.

I've heard multiple things from credible sources about Kraft.

Ask the people of Foxborough what they think of Kraft. Or the many people he's stiffed over the years what they think of Kraft.

This guy is a bad person and he's, in my opinion, the biggest phony in sports.

The other two (Brady and Belichick) obviously I have no proof that they're immoral people it's based on deduction and reasoning from all that's happened.

rambone 78 · Unread post by **rambone 78** » 9 years ago

Money is power. And Kraft uses it to his best advantage, and screw anyone who gets in his way.

He's not alone, in sports or any other way of life.

scine20 · Unread post by **scine20** » 9 years ago

rambone 78 wrote:Money is power. And Kraft uses it to his best advantage, and screw anyone who gets in his way.

He's not alone, in sports or any other way of life.

No he's not. But he comes off as some kind of saint when you, me and thousands of others know that it's just not the case.

I just want to vomit every time I hear some sports guy say what a "wonderful person Robert Kraft is." Or every time I see him tear up about the loss of his "sweetheart." You watch. NE will win next week and Kraft will discuss his "sweetheart" and get emotional about it. Much like he teared up when announcing he was moving to Connecticut when anyone who knew anything about Kraft knew that there about as much of a chance that Kraft was moving to Connecticut as there was of the sun becoming somewhere you can live.

One day I was listening to Stephen A. Smith after an interview with Kraft gush on how great a guy he is. I almost called the show but decided not to.

ramfan85 · Unread post by **ramfan85** » 9 years ago

I guess the Patriots have to be added to the list of subjects you can't discuss with other people. Now, it's politics, religion and the patriots. As TP said, it's useless to try to convince people who aren't fans of your point of view. So, I won't.
But, there are a few points I'd like to address.
First, if you delved into the business practices of any billionaire owner, you'd find a lot. They didn't get rich by putting people first. I don't know many rich social workers.
Also, I don't personally know any the principals involved in this thing. But, unless you know for a fact, I think it's a little much to call them immoral.
Look at all the stories about red Auerbach. Around here, people laugh about them. Around the league, I'm sure people fail to see the humor in things they did to gain an advantage. It's all more of a business than sport at that level.
I get a little tired of hearing how great Kraft is, too. He's got quite a PR machine working for him. A friend mentioned a while back that he does give a lot to charity. However, he'll never forget to tell you about it, either. What any of them do in their personal lives in not a concern of mine.
If this turns out badly for the Pats, Kraft will be on the hook to show just how ethical he is. The boss is always responsible for the actions of their employees, whether they know about these actions or not.

But, no matter how anyone feels about this ball issue, everyone should agree that it has gotten way out of hand. Everyone in the media is talking about it. Fox had a retire FBI interrogator on the other night to analyze Belichick's and Brady's demeanor during their press conferences. The conclusion was that they were both lying.
I don't know if they were lying or not. But, I do know that the hardest thing to do is defend yourself when you're innocent. Any cop will tell you that the most nervous people they stop are the ones who haven't done anything.

If the Pats turn out to be guilty of breaking rules, I hope appropriate action is taken. If it turns out that they didn't do anything wrong, I'm sure everyone on the air will be giving them a public apology. Maybe not.

rambone 78 · Unread post by **rambone 78** » 9 years ago

If it turns out they are lying, this would blow up the SB.

I don't think the NFL wants that.

It's a tough spot to be in for all involved.

If they find something, when will they announce it?

ramfan85 · Unread post by **ramfan85** » 9 years ago

It won't be before the SB unless the findings are in favor of the Pats. The NFL isn't about to mess with that game.

Now we've Bill Nye the Science Guy taking shots.

rambone 78 · Unread post by **rambone 78** » 9 years ago

Can you see the headlines.?

Pats win the SB, BB suspended [or fired] team hit with huge fine, etc.

SB win vacated.

I doubt any of this will happen, but good grief.....

Personally, I think this is in the best interest of the NFL to settle this asap....

adam914 · Unread post by **adam914** » 9 years ago

ramfan85 wrote:I guess the Patriots have to be added to the list of subjects you can't discuss with other people. Now, it's politics, religion and the patriots. As TP said, it's useless to try to convince people who aren't fans of your point of view. So, I won't.

I'm not going to get into all the other stuff that's been posted about this today because I don't know much about it, but I did want to address this point. Doesn't it kind of work both ways?

It seems Patriots fans want to say things like this, "its useless to try and convince people who aren't fans of your point of view", but isnt it also useless to try and convince people who are fans of the opposing point of view? It seems Pats fans want to act like the Pats haters are the only ones who are biased. Both sides are.

adam914 · Unread post by **adam914** » 9 years ago

TruePoint wrote:Did you make the playoffs? Did you want ballghazi to be a thing? (I love you man)

Haha, right back at ya. I did want it to be a thing, but I don't think its for the same reasons as most people. I don't really consider myself a "Pats hater" or anything. Overall they have very little impact on my NFL fandom. I'm a fan of an NFC team (Falcons) and live 3000 miles away from New England now so they don't come into play for me a whole lot. If anything, I am fine if they cheated, all I cared about was if they covered. They've made me alot of money over the years.

I do, however, find it extremely entertaining to watch Pats fans get so bent out of shape over the whole thing. That's why I wanted it to be a thing. Just for my own personal entertainment honestly. Maybe that makes me an asshole, I don't know. I have a lot of friends that are Patriots fans, and it's fun to act like this is all a big deal just to mess with them.

GO RHODY

Unread post by **SGreenwell** » 9 years ago

scine20 wrote:
TruePoint wrote:I think we need to step back a bit and put some things in perspective a little. I think accurately judging someone's character based on the way the media portrays them as it relates to sports is a hopeless endeavor. You may have heard a rumor about Bob Kraft, and that rumor may or not be true. But in reality you do not know enough about any of those guys, or any other athlete or coach, to really assess whether they are "immoral" or not.
I've heard multiple things from credible sources about Kraft.

Ask the people of Foxborough what they think of Kraft. Or the many people he's stiffed over the years what they think of Kraft.

This guy is a bad person and he's, in my opinion, the biggest phony in sports.

The other two (Brady and Belichick) obviously I have no proof that they're immoral people it's based on deduction and reasoning from all that's happened.

Every developer everywhere has people who aren't pleased with what they've done. This isn't an issue unique to Bob Kraft.

ramfan85 · Unread post by **ramfan85** » 9 years ago

adam914 wrote:
ramfan85 wrote:I guess the Patriots have to be added to the list of subjects you can't discuss with other people. Now, it's politics, religion and the patriots. As TP said, it's useless to try to convince people who aren't fans of your point of view. So, I won't.
I'm not going to get into all the other stuff that's been posted about this today because I don't know much about it, but I did want to address this point. Doesn't it kind of work both ways?

It seems Patriots fans want to say things like this, "its useless to try and convince people who aren't fans of your point of view", but isnt it also useless to try and convince people who are fans of the opposing point of view? It seems Pats fans want to act like the Pats haters are the only ones who are biased. Both sides are.

I meant it to be both ways. Sorry if it didn't sound that way.

Fans (of any teams) tend to circle the wagons when their team is attacked. it's not just us.

adam914 · Unread post by **adam914** » 9 years ago

Yeah totally, we're in agreement then.

scine20 · Unread post by **scine20** » 9 years ago

rambone 78 wrote: If they find something, when will they announce it?

My opinion is no chance in hell. I hope I'm wrong.

As usual, somehow someway this will work out for the Patriots.

scine20 · Unread post by **scine20** » 9 years ago

ramfan85 wrote: I get a little tired of hearing how great Kraft is, too. He's got quite a PR machine working for him. A friend mentioned a while back that he does give a lot to charity. However, he'll never forget to tell you about it, either. What any of them do in their personal lives in not a concern of mine.
If this turns out badly for the Pats, Kraft will be on the hook to show just how ethical he is. The boss is always responsible for the actions of their employees, whether they know about these actions or not.

There you go, right there. Every time Kraft does a good thing everyone needs to know about it. Which says to me he's not doing it for the right reasons. And of course he uses it as a tax write-off.

He is a PR genius. Whatever he does will be what makes him look the best in public opinion. If that's firing Belichick then he'll fire Belichick. IAnything to grab the headlines in a positive manner.

rambone 78 · Unread post by **rambone 78** » 9 years ago

Scine, those comments made by Belichek about Spygate, are absolutely bullshit.

Is he stupid enough to think that everyone will believe that they [the Pats] and he did nothing wrong, 7 years later?

His own owner called him out on it. If I were Kraft, I would have him in Kraft's office in a heartbeat, and tell him to shut the fuck up, and now!

scine20 · Unread post by **scine20** » 9 years ago

rambone 78 wrote:Scine, those comments made by Belichek about Spygate, are absolutely bullshit.

Is he stupid enough to think that everyone will believe that they [the Pats] and he did nothing wrong, 7 years later?

His own owner called him out on it. If I were Kraft, I would have him in Kraft's office in a heartbeat, and tell him to shut the fuck up, and now!

He thinks we're all stupid. What he said was not what happened. What they were doing was illegally taping other teams. They've also been accused of bugging headsets, shutting off headsets, having the radio frequency between the coach and QB go way beyond the maximum 15 second remaining on the clock and going into practices illegally to watch their opponent practice.

It's amazing that this stuff goes on. I know many people don't like Bud Selig but there's no way this garbage would have gone on under Selig. He does not play favorites like Goodell does.

How do you think the Jacksonville Jaguars would have been penalized if they did the exact same things?

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 9 years ago

scine20 wrote:
rambone 78 wrote:Scine, those comments made by Belichek about Spygate, are absolutely bullshit.

Is he stupid enough to think that everyone will believe that they [the Pats] and he did nothing wrong, 7 years later?

His own owner called him out on it. If I were Kraft, I would have him in Kraft's office in a heartbeat, and tell him to shut the fuck up, and now!
He thinks we're all stupid. What he said was not what happened. What they were doing was illegally taping other teams. They've also been accused of bugging headsets, shutting off headsets, having the radio frequency between the coach and QB go way beyond the maximum 15 second remaining on the clock and going into practices illegally to watch their opponent practice.

It's amazing that this stuff goes on. I know many people don't like Bud Selig but there's no way this garbage would have gone on under Selig. He does not play favorites like Goodell does.

How do you think the Jacksonville Jaguars would have been penalized if they did the exact same things?

I know I am a homer, but you guys are just factually wrong here. He described spygate exactly: they taped the other team's signals from an illegal location. It was clearly against the rules, and they were disciplined for it. But there was no competitive advantage gained from doing what they did as opposed to just taping from the coach's box - as every team continues to do to this day. Kraft was upset with Belichick for bringing negative attention to the franchise for something they did not gain any advantage from. There really is no disputing that - and if you disagree, prove it to me. Find a credible source anywhere that contradicts anything I just said.

As far as bugging headsets, spying on practices and all of that other nonsense, that is all 100% paranoia and innuendo born out of contempt and jealousy. All of it has been thoroughly disproven - or at the very least, zero credible evidence of it exists anywhere. Again, if you disagree go find me a credible source that disproves what I am saying.

rambone 78 · Unread post by **rambone 78** » 9 years ago

What the Pats do reminds me of another sport, Nascar.

In Nascar, the crew chiefs are like the coach of a football team. They are responsible to all aspects of the teams operation.

They have a ton of rules, just like the NFL. However, some crew chiefs play by the rules, and others are always looking for ways to either work in the "gray area" which the Pats are claiming they do, or outright break the rules, and try to cover it up to avoid getting caught.

A saying in Nascar, is "If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'".

Some get caught. And when they do, they get fined or suspended, or both.

The NFL should say, enough is enough, and drop the hammer on them. But with the SB coming up, they're not likely to have the balls to do so.

People have wondered how the Pats stay so good, while just about every other team in the NFL has their ups and downs. Well we know at least part of the reason, and it's not right.

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 9 years ago

rambone 78 wrote:People have wondered how the Pats stay so good, while just about every other team in the NFL has their ups and downs. Well we know at least part of the reason, and it's not right.

There are two reasons: they have the best quarterback of all time, and they have the greatest coach/personnel man of all time, who has instituted a program where they manage the cap responsibly and maintain a roster of relatively evenly distributed talent. Taping signals and deflating footballs has nothing to do with it, because every team in the league does those things. If those things made you good, everyone would be good. But everyone is obviously not good, and the Patriots are over and over again.

I don't know who you root for, but your team tapes the opponents' sideline (which as I've explained repeatedly is legal) and their QB sets up his footballs precisely how he wants them. That is just the way it is. I'm sorry that is not what you want to believe. That must be tough.

rambone 78 · Unread post by **rambone 78** » 9 years ago

Brady is great, of course he is.

Is he the best? Not in my book. He's top 5 for sure, but Montana's the unquestioned number one.

Some have said Brady's a "system" QB, whatever that means. Maybe if he played for another organization, he wouldn't be as good, who knows?

But he does get credit from me for being good, no doubt. I can't argue with that.

Ramulous · Unread post by **Ramulous** » 9 years ago

A great quarterback.......no mandatory guaranteed contracts......cold and ruthless about cutting their players and letting them go somewhere else and not paying players for past performance.....

I'm with TP.....they all cheat but they all don't maintain year-in and year-out winning......it takes more than that.....

scine20 · Unread post by **scine20** » 9 years ago

TruePoint wrote:
scine20 wrote:
rambone 78 wrote:Scine, those comments made by Belichek about Spygate, are absolutely bullshit.

Is he stupid enough to think that everyone will believe that they [the Pats] and he did nothing wrong, 7 years later?

His own owner called him out on it. If I were Kraft, I would have him in Kraft's office in a heartbeat, and tell him to shut the fuck up, and now!
He thinks we're all stupid. What he said was not what happened. What they were doing was illegally taping other teams. They've also been accused of bugging headsets, shutting off headsets, having the radio frequency between the coach and QB go way beyond the maximum 15 second remaining on the clock and going into practices illegally to watch their opponent practice.

It's amazing that this stuff goes on. I know many people don't like Bud Selig but there's no way this garbage would have gone on under Selig. He does not play favorites like Goodell does.

How do you think the Jacksonville Jaguars would have been penalized if they did the exact same things?
I know I am a homer, but you guys are just factually wrong here. He described spygate exactly: they taped the other team's signals from an illegal location. It was clearly against the rules, and they were disciplined for it. But there was no competitive advantage gained from doing what they did as opposed to just taping from the coach's box - as every team continues to do to this day. Kraft was upset with Belichick for bringing negative attention to the franchise for something they did not gain any advantage from. There really is no disputing that - and if you disagree, prove it to me. Find a credible source anywhere that contradicts anything I just said.

As far as bugging headsets, spying on practices and all of that other nonsense, that is all 100% paranoia and innuendo born out of contempt and jealousy. All of it has been thoroughly disproven - or at the very least, zero credible evidence of it exists anywhere. Again, if you disagree go find me a credible source that disproves what I am saying.

The tapes were promptly destroyed. Why do you think that is?

None of that has been disproved at all. Of course no evidence exists anywhere. It was destroyed. And the people who know will obviously never admit to it.

What's Matt Walsh up to these days? Have you heard from him lately? I wonder why....

ramfan85 · Unread post by **ramfan85** » 9 years ago

"A saying in Nascar, is "If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'". "

That's Rod's line...I wonder if NASCAR has been bugging his postings.

If I'm not mistaken, the guy doing the taping in Spygate was wearing Patriots jersey. Not too smart if you know you're doing something illegal.

Next we'll be hearing how every Patriot player hates kids and kicks puppies.
Seriously, I don't think this is going away anytime soon. Especially with the same coach and owner (if it's determined that they did do something wrong and nothing is done in house).
It has united the politicians, both Democrats and Republicans. They all think the Pats did something wrong. And, who would know more about that than them.

scine20 · Unread post by **scine20** » 9 years ago

TruePoint wrote:
rambone 78 wrote:People have wondered how the Pats stay so good, while just about every other team in the NFL has their ups and downs. Well we know at least part of the reason, and it's not right.
There are two reasons: they have the best quarterback of all time, and they have the greatest coach/personnel man of all time, who has instituted a program where they manage the cap responsibly and maintain a roster of relatively evenly distributed talent. Taping signals and deflating footballs has nothing to do with it, because every team in the league does those things. If those things made you good, everyone would be good. But everyone is obviously not good, and the Patriots are over and over again.

I don't know who you root for, but your team tapes the opponents' sideline (which as I've explained repeatedly is legal) and their QB sets up his footballs precisely how he wants them. That is just the way it is. I'm sorry that is not what you want to believe. That must be tough.

Brady is not the best of all time. I don't even put him in the top 5. I don't care what happens next Sunday. And it honestly really bugs me when people do call him the best of all time.

The most fortunate QB of all time? Absolutely.

Football is a team sport. This is not tennis. I judge a QB by his statistics. I don't care about wins and losses because they're a function of a team's performance. Obviously the QB is the most important part of the team but not the ONLY part.

The Brady people are IMPOSSIBLE to reason with.

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 9 years ago

scine20 wrote:
TruePoint wrote:
rambone 78 wrote:People have wondered how the Pats stay so good, while just about every other team in the NFL has their ups and downs. Well we know at least part of the reason, and it's not right.
There are two reasons: they have the best quarterback of all time, and they have the greatest coach/personnel man of all time, who has instituted a program where they manage the cap responsibly and maintain a roster of relatively evenly distributed talent. Taping signals and deflating footballs has nothing to do with it, because every team in the league does those things. If those things made you good, everyone would be good. But everyone is obviously not good, and the Patriots are over and over again.

I don't know who you root for, but your team tapes the opponents' sideline (which as I've explained repeatedly is legal) and their QB sets up his footballs precisely how he wants them. That is just the way it is. I'm sorry that is not what you want to believe. That must be tough.
Brady is not the best of all time. I don't even put him in the top 5. I don't care what happens next Sunday. And it honestly really bugs me when people do call him the best of all time.

The most fortunate QB of all time? Absolutely.

Football is a team sport. This is not tennis. I judge a QB by his statistics. I don't care about wins and losses because they're a function of a team's performance. Obviously the QB is the most important part of the team but not the ONLY part.

The Brady people are IMPOSSIBLE to reason with.

I have no reason not to think you are a terrific guy, but you clearly are not much of a football guy. And that's cool. Not everyone needs to know a lot about football.

scine20 · Unread post by **scine20** » 9 years ago

rambone 78 wrote: Some have said Brady's a "system" QB, whatever that means. Maybe if he played for another organization, he wouldn't be as good, who knows?

But he does get credit from me for being good, no doubt. I can't argue with that.

No he wouldn't. He was a creation of Belichick and Ernie Adams.

I saw little dropoff in 2008 when Matt Cassel was in there. Amazing how Matt Cassel leaves the Patriots and becomes an absolute stiff. The Patriots had a better record in 2008 with Cassel than they did in 2009 with Brady!

scine20 · Unread post by **scine20** » 9 years ago

TP, give me one reason that Brady is the best of all time that doesn't have to do with his defense and kicker (which is the only reason Brady has even one ring).

Like I said, Brady people are IMPOSSIBLE to deal with.

I don't view Montana the greatest of all time for the same reason although I put him above Brady. Give me Manning, Elway, Marino or Steve Young any day of the week. Other guys played before my time so I can't speak on them. I think Manning is unquestionably the greatest ever. I don't think it's close.

I'm also someone who doesn't believe that Troy Aikman based on his pedestrian numbers belongs in the HOF.

So you can see what I base my opinion on.

Aaron Rodgers is working his way quickly up the list.

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 9 years ago

scine20 wrote:TP, give me one reason that Brady is the best of all time that doesn't have to do with his defense and kicker (which is the only reason Brady has even one ring).

Like I said, Brady people are IMPOSSIBLE to deal with.

In all seriousness, I can see someone saying they think there is another QB better than Brady. I wouldn't call someone who said Montana or Manning was better an idiot. I think there are viable arguments there. But to say Brady isn't in the conversation is clearly either the manifestation of bias or lack of understanding or knowledge.

scine20 · Unread post by **scine20** » 9 years ago

TruePoint wrote:
scine20 wrote:TP, give me one reason that Brady is the best of all time that doesn't have to do with his defense and kicker (which is the only reason Brady has even one ring).

Like I said, Brady people are IMPOSSIBLE to deal with.

In all seriousness, I can see someone saying they think there is another QB better than Brady. I wouldn't call someone who said Montana or Manning was better an idiot. I think there are viable arguments there. But to say Brady isn't in the conversation is clearly either the manifestation of bias or lack of understanding or knowledge.

The Brady argument is based solely on winning % and rings, is it not?

What's funny about the whole rings thing is Brady was a shell of himself when they won. He's a much better QB now than at any point in 2001, 2003 or 2004. Yet people call him the best of all time because of then.

Had NE NOT won in those years (say Vinatieri never makes the kick vs Oakland, Drew Bennett holds onto the ball in the Titans game and McNabb plays a little better in the Philly game) what would people say about Brady. Brady, as you know, had zero control over any of those 3 situations. But yet he's considered the greatest.

Ramulous · Unread post by **Ramulous** » 9 years ago

I think one thing is certain........going forward there will be a strict protocol for the testing and logging balls in as acceptable.....serial numbers on the balls....a log of meter reading and time the test was taken....and the exclusive possession of all balls by the referees and league supplied ball managers....

......I have so many questions about the current protocol...and doubts about whether the balls were properly metered.....

.....as I said previously.....if the Pats submitted balls which were in conformity to what Tom Brady wants in a ball and the refs approve them without metering them but using the touch and feel test...then I don't think the Pats cheated......if they metered the balls and the Pats went back and let air out of them....then that breaks the rules and they should pay the price.....

......I think most teams like the honor system where so long as the balls feel okay they will be approved......they want their QBs to have the ball the way they like and they don't care if the other team's QB does the same...and it was done with a wink and a nod.....

.....now individual preference will be out the window and the ball will be filled to league specs without variation.....and why does the league allow a range of compression......set it at 12 lbs. psi.....by them allowing a range it shows me the league doesn't really care.....but now they will have to because of a whistle blower on the whole previous charade.....

rambone 78 · Unread post by **rambone 78** » 9 years ago

You would think by now other teams would have figured out the Pats "system".

They just plug guys in, and all of a sudden they get good. Then when they leave, they suck again.

They are obviously doing something that works. Whether it's totally above board, well.......

scine20 · Unread post by **scine20** » 9 years ago

rambone 78 wrote:You would think by now other teams would have figured out the Pats "system".

They just plug guys in, and all of a sudden they get good. Then when they leave, they suck again.

They are obviously doing something that works. Whether it's totally above board, well.......

How about this stat. And this goes right to the theory that the Patriots have been taking the air out of the ball for years. BenJarvus Green-Ellis fumbled zero times in his entire Patriots career with more carries than he had in his Cincinnati career. Yet he fumbled 5 times in Cincinnati.

The Patriots also since 2010 have the least amount of fumbles per carry than any other non-domed team stadium.

Ramulous · Unread post by **Ramulous** » 9 years ago

Why are Aaron Rodger's teams always very good.....and Peyton Manning's teams......good teams have good quarterbacks......Brady is in the upper echelon of quarterbacks who have ever played.....Manning also.....Rodgers has that look to him too.....

......you can't say Montana or Bradshaw are the best of all time because they have won 4 Super bowls.....but deny that luxury to Brady if he wins his 4th just because he lost two.......I think his 6 Super Bowl appearances is going to be difficult to surpass....

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