Patriots win, but lose

NFL, MLB, NHL, NBA, BPL... you get it
User avatar
SGreenwell
Sly Williams
Posts: 4369
Joined: 11 years ago
Location: Houston, TX (via Charlestown, RI)
x 2968
Contact:

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by SGreenwell »

It would shock me if they cut Wilfork, even coming off the injury. He has a really unique skill set that would be hard for them to replace, so they're probably better off gambling on a return to health for him and paying his salary, as opposed to paying in FA for a replacement. It's not as noticeable as other sports because the contracts are only partially guaranteed, but there is a "winner's curse" in effect for NFL free agency as well. Typically, teams that hand out contracts to free agents tend to regret them, and the best deals tend to be those of the one and two-year variety.
0 x
User avatar
rodfromcranston
Frank Keaney
Posts: 13068
Joined: 11 years ago
x 1517

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by rodfromcranston »

I'm sick of the Pats doing everything on the cheap.
Kraft brags about managing the low part of the roster.
Brady has a limited window.
They have the money to signed free agents or keep key players.
This is the time to do so.
0 x
< Arthur is my spirit animal.
User avatar
rjsuperfly66
Carlton Owens
Posts: 3425
Joined: 11 years ago
x 1440

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by rjsuperfly66 »

The problem with the Patriots is the market. While it is better to get players on short-term deals, the market is not allowing that this year. Adam "Pacman" Jones was talking about that last night -- The Pats got a great deal last year, 1 yr $5 million on Talib. However, the only way they are keeping him this year is for 4 yrs, $40ish million, $20ish million guaranteed. So would the Patriots have been better off last year signing Talib to 3 years, $21 million, $10 million guaranteed? They got a "deal" last year, but wno't this year, and now it will be hard to retain that player. The only players you are getting short years with this year and basically older players, or guys you significantly overpay (or maybe some combination). The Pats have been mentioned with Jared Allen, but are they willing to pay 1 year, $6-8 million? I believe that is the range Cliff Avril was in last year, and I would say Allen is a better player (although older). If the Patriots lose Talib, they better do something big. We all saw what happened in Denver without him, and you can't rely simply on player development to fill a hole so big.
0 x
User avatar
TruePoint
Frank Keaney
Posts: 13851
Joined: 11 years ago
x 11427

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by TruePoint »

The Patriots' approach of trying to build by exploiting market inefficiencies and having a deep (as opposed to top-heavy) roster is what has allowed them to remain among the elite teams every year for the last 13 seasons. I know fans hate it because fans love splashy trades and FA signings, but I'd rather be in contention every year knowing some things will have to break your way to win it all than sellout to win it in a given year, then end up in salary cap jail and have to be terrible for a little while until you can go all-in again. It is a philosophical approach, so I don't think they will deviate from it just because of the age of the QB.

I do hope that they are a little more successful in hitting on undervalued assets this offseason. The early Belichick teams were so good because they hit on guys like Vrabel and Harrison in FA and Dillon and Moss in trades, and drafted well early (Wilfork, Seymour) and hit later in the draft on guys like Givens and Branch. They've still done a little of that - they have drafted better of late with the Vollmers and Joneses early and the Edelmans and Gronks later. But they haven't brought guys in from other teams with as much success as they did early on. Haynesworth and Ochocinco were disasters. Adrian Wilson and Tommy Kelly both got hurt this past year.

I'd rather see them stick to their approach that they've won with and just execute it better instead of changing course suddenly and try to execute an entirely new plan.
0 x
"If you build it, they will come." --Us, circa 2011
User avatar
rjsuperfly66
Carlton Owens
Posts: 3425
Joined: 11 years ago
x 1440

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by rjsuperfly66 »

How much of that middle of the roster approach can you credit on Tom Brady and Bill Belichick? The NFL is dominated by great QB play and great player development. When they had the elite talents you previously mentioned TP, they were completely dominant. Now, they are just a good team in a crappy conference. If you remove Brady on this roster, and add a middle of the road QB (say Andy Dalton), what do you think the Patriots are? If your W/L changes so drastically with one person, than I would say your middle of the road building approach isn't as good as you think it is. Just that one change, I would guess they would be ~.500 every year. The sad thing is, if Dalton gets a contract extension in Cincy, it will probably be for around as much annually as Brady currently gets.
0 x
User avatar
SGreenwell
Sly Williams
Posts: 4369
Joined: 11 years ago
Location: Houston, TX (via Charlestown, RI)
x 2968
Contact:

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by SGreenwell »

rjsuperfly66 wrote:How much of that middle of the roster approach can you credit on Tom Brady and Bill Belichick? The NFL is dominated by great QB play and great player development. When they had the elite talents you previously mentioned TP, they were completely dominant. Now, they are just a good team in a crappy conference. If you remove Brady on this roster, and add a middle of the road QB (say Andy Dalton), what do you think the Patriots are? If your W/L changes so drastically with one person, than I would say your middle of the road building approach isn't as good as you think it is. Just that one change, I would guess they would be ~.500 every year. The sad thing is, if Dalton gets a contract extension in Cincy, it will probably be for around as much annually as Brady currently gets.
Evidence suggests that without Brady, they drop down to a whopping 10 or 11 wins. I don't think Bill Belichick the GM is great, probably because he's stretched too thin doing that and also coaching, and scouting and personnel decisions are going to get short shrift as a result. But the guy can coach. Looking at the one-year loss of Sean Payton to the Saints, and the various effect Parcells had on teams, it suggests that the biggest market inefficiency in the NFL is coaching. There is no salary cap on head coaches, but the leader is Payton at $8M.
0 x
User avatar
TruePoint
Frank Keaney
Posts: 13851
Joined: 11 years ago
x 11427

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by TruePoint »

rjsuperfly66 wrote:How much of that middle of the roster approach can you credit on Tom Brady and Bill Belichick? The NFL is dominated by great QB play and great player development. When they had the elite talents you previously mentioned TP, they were completely dominant. Now, they are just a good team in a crappy conference. If you remove Brady on this roster, and add a middle of the road QB (say Andy Dalton), what do you think the Patriots are? If your W/L changes so drastically with one person, than I would say your middle of the road building approach isn't as good as you think it is. Just that one change, I would guess they would be ~.500 every year. The sad thing is, if Dalton gets a contract extension in Cincy, it will probably be for around as much annually as Brady currently gets.
You cannot make a Brady-for-league-average-QB switch in a vacuum. Having an elite QB is helpful, but it isn't a cure all. Elite QBs account for more of a team's salary cap and eliminate a lot of other approaches to roster building. Many smart NFL observers have made the point that much of Seattle's success is based on them getting very good (if not truly elite) QB play at bargain basement cost, allowing them to allocate a lot of their cap to other positions. Wilson's cap charge next year is $800k; Brady's is $14.8M. That extra 14M goes a long way in assembling talent. When Wilson's rookie deal is up and the Seahawks have to re-up with him, they will have to make adjustments in other parts of the roster.

You can't say that having an elite QB covers up your inability to build a good roster, because having an elite QB precludes you from building a good roster in a lot of respects. Everyone wants the Patriots to have an elite corner, and elite pass rusher and at least two very good pass catchers. Plus, you need to pay pro-bowl caliber O-linemen to protect your franchise QB.

So let's run the numbers really quickly (and being pretty conservative): you have Brady's $15M cap hit, $20M cap hit for two elite receivers, $10M cap hit for an elite edge rusher, $10M for an elite corner, $35M on your O-line because of your elite tackles and your all-pro guard ... now you are at $90M against your cap and you have paid 10 guys. You still have another 43+ guys, including 12 starters and specialists, to pay. Based on the projected cap of $132M, that leaves you with less than $1M per player for 80% of your roster. What kind of talent do you think $1M gets you in the NFL? I'll give you a hint: you better draft well.

Also, just for record, Brady was replaced for one season by a slightly below league average QB. The Patriots still won 11 games that year and only missed the playoffs by a historical fluke.

For the record part II, a common misconception is that the Patriots are cheap, but they are among the teams that have the least cap room heading into the 2014 league year.
0 x
"If you build it, they will come." --Us, circa 2011
User avatar
rjsuperfly66
Carlton Owens
Posts: 3425
Joined: 11 years ago
x 1440

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by rjsuperfly66 »

I agree with your point, but Brady is being paid like an slightly above average NFL QB. His ~$15 million cap hit is still high, but compared to what other guys are getting? Brady's cap hit will be tied for 11th highest among quarterbacks. That doesn't include guys like Kap and Wilson, and guys like Luck and RGIII will be paid among the best in a few years, and players who escalating contracts haven't fully hit yet (Romo, Flacco). The Patriots have Brady on a fantastic deal, one that is nearly "average" in NFL contracts. Obviously not paying a quarterback means you can put resources elsewhere, but unless you draft a fantastic QB, a league average QB is costing you around $10 million per at the very minimum.

It's also hard to compare the Patriots now to the Patriots in '08. That team was fresh off an 18-1 season and brought back many of the same pieces. Welker and Moss, a great offensive line, a good defensive line (Wilfork, Warren, Seymour), etc. Now I'm not sure what every NFL backup QB does in the same system, but I would say outside of running backs and linebackers (push), that 08 team was better everywhere.
0 x
User avatar
TruePoint
Frank Keaney
Posts: 13851
Joined: 11 years ago
x 11427

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by TruePoint »

So Talib signed with Denver. I hope Pats fans look at the deal he signed before they throw their typical fit. The deal is absolutely insane. Denver doing what Pats fans want the Pats to do: go all in. Denver better win it all this year, because if not I can't imagine they will be happy with all the dead money in these deals down the road.
0 x
"If you build it, they will come." --Us, circa 2011
User avatar
adam914
Ernie Calverley
Posts: 9716
Joined: 11 years ago
x 7381

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by adam914 »

It's the NFL though, can't you just cut guys and not pay them?
0 x
"Our goals have not changed, we want to be the best program in the Atlantic 10, and even more than that we want to get to a Final Four someday." - Thorr Bjorn - March 22, 2018
User avatar
SGreenwell
Sly Williams
Posts: 4369
Joined: 11 years ago
Location: Houston, TX (via Charlestown, RI)
x 2968
Contact:

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by SGreenwell »

adam914 wrote:It's the NFL though, can't you just cut guys and not pay them?
Most contracts are in effect partially guaranteed because of the bonus money involved, which teams typically spread out (on their books) over a couple years. Meaning, if you give a guy a $20M bonus, and spread out $5M for four years, you still have to pay that money even if you cut that player. Some higher paid players also get "bonuses" or have clauses in their contracts if they're cut instead of being kept on.
0 x
User avatar
SGreenwell
Sly Williams
Posts: 4369
Joined: 11 years ago
Location: Houston, TX (via Charlestown, RI)
x 2968
Contact:

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by SGreenwell »

TruePoint wrote:So Talib signed with Denver. I hope Pats fans look at the deal he signed before they throw their typical fit. The deal is absolutely insane. Denver doing what Pats fans want the Pats to do: go all in. Denver better win it all this year, because if not I can't imagine they will be happy with all the dead money in these deals down the road.
Since Denver has Manning, I think they at least have strategic reasons for trying to go "all out" this year. He's one injury away from retirement, and probably one or two years away from retirement anyway.
0 x
User avatar
adam914
Ernie Calverley
Posts: 9716
Joined: 11 years ago
x 7381

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by adam914 »

SGreenwell wrote:
adam914 wrote:It's the NFL though, can't you just cut guys and not pay them?
Most contracts are in effect partially guaranteed because of the bonus money involved, which teams typically spread out (on their books) over a couple years. Meaning, if you give a guy a $20M bonus, and spread out $5M for four years, you still have to pay that money even if you cut that player. Some higher paid players also get "bonuses" or have clauses in their contracts if they're cut instead of being kept on.
Right, but when you look at just the guaranteed money he is getting it doesnt seem like quite as big of a risk/investment.

BTW, they have now added Demarcus Ware as well. Totally going for it.
0 x
"Our goals have not changed, we want to be the best program in the Atlantic 10, and even more than that we want to get to a Final Four someday." - Thorr Bjorn - March 22, 2018
User avatar
TruePoint
Frank Keaney
Posts: 13851
Joined: 11 years ago
x 11427

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by TruePoint »

The way these contracts work, the guaranteed money is prorated over the length of the deal (assuming it is signing bonus; roster bonuses are different and don't become guaranteed until that league year, so it's an agent trick and is basically salary they get to call "guaranteed" money). So in Talib's case, there is 4.33M of "dead" money per year for six years. Even if you get 4 years out if him that you're okay paying 9M+ for, that is still a ton of dead money sitting on the end of that deal. Ware will have ~7M of dead money on his deal in 2016 when he will be 35 years old.

This is really fiscally irresponsible management by Denver, but I guess if they win the SB this year their fans will live with it. Big gamble, though. What if Manning gets hurt? Then you are in salary SuperMax without any remote chance of winning the SB now or for the next 5 or 6 years.
0 x
"If you build it, they will come." --Us, circa 2011
User avatar
rodfromcranston
Frank Keaney
Posts: 13068
Joined: 11 years ago
x 1517

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by rodfromcranston »

Sorry, I'm not a CPA, and I like to see a team I follow,
try everything to do to win it all.
Especially with Brady in his twilight years.
I don't care if they spend like drunken sailors this off season.
Just do it!
0 x
< Arthur is my spirit animal.
User avatar
TruePoint
Frank Keaney
Posts: 13851
Joined: 11 years ago
x 11427

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by TruePoint »

rodfromcranston wrote:Sorry, I'm not a CPA, and I like to see a team I follow,
try everything to do to win it all.
Especially with Brady in his twilight years.
I don't care if they spend like drunken sailors this off season.
Just do it!
Rod, if they signed Ware and Talib this offseason, do you feel they would be 100% to win it all? 75%? 50%? I think it'd actually only be about 20%, and to me that isn't enough to justify making it impossible for you to be good 2, 3 or 4 years down the road.
0 x
"If you build it, they will come." --Us, circa 2011
User avatar
adam914
Ernie Calverley
Posts: 9716
Joined: 11 years ago
x 7381

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by adam914 »

TruePoint wrote:The way these contracts work, the guaranteed money is prorated over the length of the deal (assuming it is signing bonus; roster bonuses are different and don't become guaranteed until that league year, so it's an agent trick and is basically salary they get to call "guaranteed" money). So in Talib's case, there is 4.33M of "dead" money per year for six years. Even if you get 4 years out if him that you're okay paying 9M+ for, that is still a ton of dead money sitting on the end of that deal. Ware will have ~7M of dead money on his deal in 2016 when he will be 35 years old.

This is really fiscally irresponsible management by Denver, but I guess if they win the SB this year their fans will live with it. Big gamble, though. What if Manning gets hurt? Then you are in salary SuperMax without any remote chance of winning the SB now or for the next 5 or 6 years.
Point taken. And I think your last statement there is really what it comes down. Win the SB and it makes it all ok. Lose and people will call it stupid.
0 x
"Our goals have not changed, we want to be the best program in the Atlantic 10, and even more than that we want to get to a Final Four someday." - Thorr Bjorn - March 22, 2018
User avatar
rodfromcranston
Frank Keaney
Posts: 13068
Joined: 11 years ago
x 1517

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by rodfromcranston »

So, Talib and Edleman are gone. Your team is weakened in its
weakest positions, CR and WR.
Bet Blout leaves, too.
The team is clearly WEAKER. What do they do to even get back to status quo,
let alone win the Super Bowl?
Do you trust Bill "Let's trade down" Belichick to solve the problem with
a Rutgers DB in the draft, or some bargain basement WR?
Brady took a paycut, so the Pats would have flexibility. They gave him
Amendola, instead of Welker.
As I said, they're not even as good as they were the day the season ended.
I think all of New England deserves better than,"We really managed the lower 30 on our
roster, very well."
0 x
< Arthur is my spirit animal.
User avatar
TruePoint
Frank Keaney
Posts: 13851
Joined: 11 years ago
x 11427

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by TruePoint »

Putting aside the fact that they seem legitimately interested in Revis, they will be better just by getting mayo, Gronk, Kelly and probably Wilfork back. If you haven't figured out that they can basically plug anyone into the Welker/Edelman role (even assuming they don't get Edelman back), then I don't know what to tell you. If you are measuring them by the AFCCG, then they basically didn't have Talib or Spikes for that game. They don't have a full roster at the moment, so pieces will be added. Maybe Steve Smith, maybe Peppers or Allen. Maybe Revis. There are moves left to make. The 2014 league year is one day old. Probably pretty early to give up on the season.
0 x
"If you build it, they will come." --Us, circa 2011
User avatar
TruePoint
Frank Keaney
Posts: 13851
Joined: 11 years ago
x 11427

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by TruePoint »

Aaaaaand there's Revis. Boom. Bill is the man. Upgrade at corner. Fans are funny.
0 x
"If you build it, they will come." --Us, circa 2011
Billyboy78
Frank Keaney
Posts: 16274
Joined: 11 years ago
x 8570

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by Billyboy78 »

Revis just signed with the Pats.
0 x
rambone 78
Frank Keaney
Posts: 16330
Joined: 11 years ago
x 5182

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by rambone 78 »

Revis is still a good corner, how good remains to be seen. ACL injuries are hard for a cornerback to come fully back from.

Is he at Talib's level now? Hard to say. The 2009 Revis, at his best? Probably not.

Signing him for one year is smart, if he's not the same player he once was, they can get rid of him without a big cap hit.

I'm surprised he didn't get a longer contract from someone though.
0 x
User avatar
TruePoint
Frank Keaney
Posts: 13851
Joined: 11 years ago
x 11427

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by TruePoint »

Rambone, did you ask if Revis is at Talib's level? Ha! You are one of a kind, man. Unquestioned best corner in the game.
0 x
"If you build it, they will come." --Us, circa 2011
User avatar
rodfromcranston
Frank Keaney
Posts: 13068
Joined: 11 years ago
x 1517

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by rodfromcranston »

Bullshit! He was a shell of himself last year.
Keep drinking the Billaid.
So, you downgraded at one position.
Still need to address pass defense, TE, WR,
and probably RB.
0 x
< Arthur is my spirit animal.
rambone 78
Frank Keaney
Posts: 16330
Joined: 11 years ago
x 5182

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by rambone 78 »

TP, he WAS the best corner in the game.

Is he still an elite CB? You don't know that, and neither do I.

We will find that out this season.

From his play last year, when he still wasn't all the way back, proves he's still good. There is no question about that.
0 x
User avatar
rodfromcranston
Frank Keaney
Posts: 13068
Joined: 11 years ago
x 1517

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by rodfromcranston »

"Not bad stats, but when you consider that the Bucs already made replacement for Revis in Verner will earn the same as him in four years compared to one of Revis, you start understand that Revis is just an overpaid corner driven by reputation and market value."
0 x
< Arthur is my spirit animal.
rambone 78
Frank Keaney
Posts: 16330
Joined: 11 years ago
x 5182

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by rambone 78 »

The Pats were desperate, and of course cheap.

They knew if they kept Talib, they would have to pay him several years at big dollars.

This way, they get a still good player for one year. The Pats have now joined in with the "rent-a-player" group, something they said they would never do under Belicheck.

If Revis turns out to be the real deal again, either they will have to pay him big bucks over the long term, or let him walk. Next year he'll be 30. I doubt he gets a long term deal in NE.
0 x
User avatar
rodfromcranston
Frank Keaney
Posts: 13068
Joined: 11 years ago
x 1517

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by rodfromcranston »

They gave Talib the one year, due to character issues.
They're giving Revis one year, because they have doubts
as to how good he still is.
When will they sign Stephen Drew for one year?
0 x
< Arthur is my spirit animal.
User avatar
SGreenwell
Sly Williams
Posts: 4369
Joined: 11 years ago
Location: Houston, TX (via Charlestown, RI)
x 2968
Contact:

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by SGreenwell »

That deal is incredible for the Patriots. I have no idea how they got Revis to take just one year, given the kind of money Talib got even though 1) he had off the field issues in 2012 that made him available to the Pats in the first place and 2) he didn't manage to play a full season because of injuries in 2012 or 2013. Revis didn't have a great year with the Bucs, but they're the Bucs. Nobody had a great year for them, and some guy named Michael Bennett went from a subpar year with them in 2012 to a pretty, pretty, pretty good year with the Seahawks in 2013. I realize that's a one player sample, but I'd much rather the Patriots take a chance on Revis for a year as opposed to the other nutty big money deals other players have been getting.
0 x
rambone 78
Frank Keaney
Posts: 16330
Joined: 11 years ago
x 5182

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by rambone 78 »

My guess is, they shopped Revis around, and there were no takers for a big money long term deal, due to his health issues.

And Revis knew it. If he's really back to his old self this season, he'll get big money from somebody.
0 x
User avatar
SGreenwell
Sly Williams
Posts: 4369
Joined: 11 years ago
Location: Houston, TX (via Charlestown, RI)
x 2968
Contact:

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by SGreenwell »

rambone 78 wrote:My guess is, they shopped Revis around, and there were no takers for a big money long term deal, due to his health issues.

And Revis knew it. If he's really back to his old self this season, he'll get big money from somebody.
Revis is 28, and missed 14 games in 2012, and three games in 2010. Aqib Talib is 28, and has yet to play a full 16-game season because of either injuries or suspensions. He's also made a single pro bowl, vs. five for Revis, who has also made three all-pro teams. I can understand a team not trading for Revis, because they knew the Bucs were going to cut him, because they're the Bucs. But I'm positive he probably could have gotten something similar to Talib, but decided to sign with the Patriots instead. Even if you think Talib was the #1 corner, other guys like Vontae Davis, Brent Grimes and Sam Shields got four-year deals, with dollar amounts ranging from $32 million to $39 million.
0 x
User avatar
TruePoint
Frank Keaney
Posts: 13851
Joined: 11 years ago
x 11427

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by TruePoint »

Rod and Rambone, do you guys even follow the NFL? There is not one person in or around the league that would tell you that Talib is a better (or healthier) player than Revis. According to some pretty detailed analysis, Revis had a slightly better year in coverage than freaking Richard Sherman (nevermind Talib) even though he was deployed incorrectly in Tampa (http://presnapreads.com/2014/02/26/darr ... dict-2014/).

Nobody knows exactly what Revis was thinking until he addresses it, but even though Revis didn't take a longterm deal he will be the highest paid corner in the league in 2014 (once the Cowboys restructure Brandon Carr). He is clearly betting on himself to get a better longterm deal next year than was available this year, but that doesn't necessarily mean much about how teams viewed his health or performance.

If either of you guys can find me one "expert" who thinks that Talib is better than Revis, or that Denver signed the better player or made the better deal, or that argues intelligently that Revis showed "decline" last season, I would really love to see it. Even people who normally criticize everything the Patriots do are falling all over themselves to say how great of a move this is for the Pats and how brilliantly Belichick played this. Rambone, you not being satisfied with this and questioning how good Revis is and making things up about his health outs you as "that kind" of Pats fan, and explains an awful lot about some of the asinine posting that goes on around here, too.
0 x
"If you build it, they will come." --Us, circa 2011
User avatar
Seawrightspostgame
Sly Williams
Posts: 4139
Joined: 11 years ago
x 1563

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by Seawrightspostgame »

Yea I feel like guys are uninformed. The patriots don't give 12 mil a year to just anybody. If they think he's worth 12, then he's worth 15.
0 x
I want to change my name to BlockIslandFerry
User avatar
rodfromcranston
Frank Keaney
Posts: 13068
Joined: 11 years ago
x 1517

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by rodfromcranston »

Yeah, like I don't know shit about football.
Glad you big experts have it covered.
Oh, and this from Adam Kaufman of The Globe:
" I question what exactly Revis has left in the tank and whether he can be that same ultra-effective shutdown corner he was for all those years that he tormented Tom Brady to the point where the Pats’ QB called him the best he’s ever faced.
I’m also concerned about the baggage."
0 x
< Arthur is my spirit animal.
User avatar
TruePoint
Frank Keaney
Posts: 13851
Joined: 11 years ago
x 11427

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by TruePoint »

I'm not saying you know nothing about football, but on this one you'll have to explain to me how Revis is a downgrade from Talib or show me one person professionally associated with football that agrees with you on that. I don't think that opinion is defensible or even remotely tethered to reality, honestly. Talib is a very good corner, and Revis is a great corner. There is a difference.
0 x
"If you build it, they will come." --Us, circa 2011
User avatar
rodfromcranston
Frank Keaney
Posts: 13068
Joined: 11 years ago
x 1517

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by rodfromcranston »

How about Peter King? He's uniformed, too?

KING ON M&M: TALIB BETTER OPTION THAN REVIS
0 x
< Arthur is my spirit animal.
User avatar
TruePoint
Frank Keaney
Posts: 13851
Joined: 11 years ago
x 11427

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by TruePoint »

Not much context there, but better "option" isn't the same as saying Talib is a better player. For instance, when he said that matters. I doubt he thought the Pats could get Revis for what they got him for. If he says tomorrow that the Pats would have been better off giving Talib 26M guaranteed than giving Revis 12M, then you and he will definitely be the only ones saying that.
0 x
"If you build it, they will come." --Us, circa 2011
ramfan85
Carlton Owens
Posts: 2983
Joined: 11 years ago
x 447

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by ramfan85 »

So, now we have Patience, Prudence and Revis Islands. It's like a two year contract. The Pats have the option to franchise him for the following year, if they want.
I think it's a good move. They weren't going to pay big for Talib. As talented as he is, he hasn't finished either season with the Pats. Health and reliability are almost as important in this league as talent.
But, I don't want the Pats to forget about the cornerback and safety positions. With injuries, they still need help there. That is, unless they're happy with Arrington on the corner (Heaven help us).
They had better bring in some talent at wide receiver. Belichick doesn't put much value at that position. What they have now is terrible. I'd love to see Steve Smith here. But, as has been mentioned, this rent-a-player system isn't my favorite way to build a program.
It takes a long time for receivers and qb's to develop a relationship, especially in the Pat's system.
0 x
User avatar
TruePoint
Frank Keaney
Posts: 13851
Joined: 11 years ago
x 11427

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by TruePoint »

Rod, this is a quote from Greg Bedard (one of the best NFL writers in the business) in an article on King's MMQB website:
It’s hard to fault the Patriots for taking Revis over Talib, even at a higher salary. Revis is clearly better and much cleaner off the field. Now two years removed from ACL reconstruction, Revis is in top form.
I don't think you will see King rebuking Bedard.

http://mmqb.si.com/2014/03/12/darrelle- ... -patriots/


You could also ask Talib:

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-england-pat ... revis-no-1
0 x
"If you build it, they will come." --Us, circa 2011
User avatar
TruePoint
Frank Keaney
Posts: 13851
Joined: 11 years ago
x 11427

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by TruePoint »

Reporting now that former Seahawk CB Brandon Browner visiting Patriots, also. Was part of NFL's best CB tandem before being suspended for violating NFL substance abuse policy (but if you read up on it, he was suspended on a technicality because he didn't show for a test years ago when he was playing professionally in Canada).
0 x
"If you build it, they will come." --Us, circa 2011
User avatar
adam914
Ernie Calverley
Posts: 9716
Joined: 11 years ago
x 7381

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by adam914 »

TruePoint wrote:Reporting now that former Seahawk CB Brandon Browner visiting Patriots, also. Was part of NFL's best CB tandem before being suspended for violating NFL substance abuse policy (but if you read up on it, he was suspended on a technicality because he didn't show for a test years ago when he was playing professionally in Canada).
Well thats a little misleading I think. Unless I misunderstand the situation, he was suspended because he failed a drug test. But he was treated as a Stage 3 offender because of the not being tested previously.

Anyway, it was supposedly all for marijuana anyway, which is a whole different story. Shouldn't even be illegal/banned in the first place.
0 x
"Our goals have not changed, we want to be the best program in the Atlantic 10, and even more than that we want to get to a Final Four someday." - Thorr Bjorn - March 22, 2018
User avatar
TruePoint
Frank Keaney
Posts: 13851
Joined: 11 years ago
x 11427

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by TruePoint »

Right. Sorry it was late. I definitely didn't explain that well. He was in the league's drug program because of the missed test, but the immediate cause of the suspension was a failed test.
0 x
"If you build it, they will come." --Us, circa 2011
rambone 78
Frank Keaney
Posts: 16330
Joined: 11 years ago
x 5182

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by rambone 78 »

TP, maybe this explains it.

I'm a NYG fan.

Ha ha. Seriously, I never said this was definitely a bad deal for the Pats. The key word, is IF.

IF Revis gets back to his 2009 form, then the Pats have a steal. I agree, Revis is better than Talib, at his best. No doubt.

He's definitely worth taking a chance on for one year.

And there's no doubt why Revis signed with the Pats either. He wants to play for a team that has a chance to play in a Super Bowl. He wasn't going to sign with the Raiders or Browns, or re-sign with the Jets.

Although the Jets just signed Decker. I thought he would go to the Pats, he's the kind of receiver that would fit well there.
0 x
User avatar
TruePoint
Frank Keaney
Posts: 13851
Joined: 11 years ago
x 11427

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by TruePoint »

Haha Rambone. G-men fan. No further explanation necessary. You guys are having a good start to the offseason, too. Got some much needed o-line help.
0 x
"If you build it, they will come." --Us, circa 2011
User avatar
rodfromcranston
Frank Keaney
Posts: 13068
Joined: 11 years ago
x 1517

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by rodfromcranston »

Decker would have been a great signing for the Pats.
They need a big receiver, badly. The smurf slots are good possesion guys, but
Brady needs a downfield threat.
Much as I love Gronk, but do you want your season to depend on his health?
I hope Revis is close to what he was with the Jets.
Next to the Rams, the Pats are my favorite team.
I agree with 85, that the rent-a-player is not the way to go, and
creates instability. Wideouts seem to have a problem learning the
Pats' system, and they need time to get on the same page as Brady.
We saw how painful that was early in the season with the rookies.
0 x
< Arthur is my spirit animal.
User avatar
TruePoint
Frank Keaney
Posts: 13851
Joined: 11 years ago
x 11427

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by TruePoint »

Moss and Welker caught on pretty quick. You can't have everyone because of the salary cap math I highlighted earlier, and for that reason the decker signing may be good for the Jets (I'm not convinced), but wouldn't have been a good allocation of resources for the Pats. I think Dobson will be a viable deep threat for them going forward. Unless you can get a Dez, Green, Calvin or Gordon, I don't think you need to dive into the top end WR market. Not a lot of good value there. Steve Smith would be a great pickup.
0 x
"If you build it, they will come." --Us, circa 2011
rambone 78
Frank Keaney
Posts: 16330
Joined: 11 years ago
x 5182

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by rambone 78 »

Thanks TP. The Giants need a LOT of help, but they'll get there.

They are a solid organization. Things just kind of snowballed on them last year.

Would be nice if they could sign or draft a TE who could block AND catch the ball. At least Killdrive [Gilbride] retired. That's a start.
0 x
Andrew
Jimmy Baron
Posts: 469
Joined: 11 years ago

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by Andrew »

Love the Revis signing. It's an upgrade at CB, and the deal is an absolute steal compared to what other corners are getting paid. I'd love to see Nicks come here for a year, and we still need a pass rusher. Whether that's free agency or the draft remains to be seen. Browner at SS would be great, providing he can stay out of trouble. Edelman is completely disposable. He had one good and healthy year out of his five, and people are clamoring for him to be back.
0 x
Go Rhody!
rambone 78
Frank Keaney
Posts: 16330
Joined: 11 years ago
x 5182

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by rambone 78 »

Being a Giants fan, I'm not sold on the idea of Nicks coming to the Pats.

He's damaged goods. He was in a contract year last year, and played poorly most of it. He couldn't get separation from defenders like he used to.

How much of that was from injuries, it's hard to tell. He's still relatively young, so maybe he'll get that burst he used to have back again. Or maybe not. Kind of like Revis in a way.

Maybe the Pats could take a one year "flyer" on him if possible, again like Revis.
0 x
User avatar
SGreenwell
Sly Williams
Posts: 4369
Joined: 11 years ago
Location: Houston, TX (via Charlestown, RI)
x 2968
Contact:

Re: Patriots win, but lose

Unread post by SGreenwell »

rambone 78 wrote:Being a Giants fan, I'm not sold on the idea of Nicks coming to the Pats.

He's damaged goods. He was in a contract year last year, and played poorly most of it. He couldn't get separation from defenders like he used to.

How much of that was from injuries, it's hard to tell. He's still relatively young, so maybe he'll get that burst he used to have back again. Or maybe not. Kind of like Revis in a way.

Maybe the Pats could take a one year "flyer" on him if possible, again like Revis.
Agree with all of this. I've always thought it was weird that Victor Cruz was seen as the second or system guy as compared to Nicks. If they can get him on a buy-low, one-year contract, then that's good, but otherwise, meh.

I also think that whatever team signs Decker will probably regret it. I think he's the #1 candidate for a Peerless Price / Alvin Harper-like contract, where he's signed to a longterm contract that the team will end up eating a lot of money on. I might be mistaken, but the fail rate for longterm deals for FA receivers seems higher than other positions. Last year, the big moves were Mike Wallace and Welker, and the Dolphins and Broncos probably wouldn't mind mulligans on those contracts right now.
0 x
Post Reply