Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby SGreenwell » 2 months ago

To piggyback on RJ's point - I think the Sox have won or tied most of these trades so far that DD have done, even though I think they overpaid for most of the guys they acquired. Eventually though, they're probably going to see their 'luck' reverse.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby ramster » 2 months ago

It was a great trade.
Pomeranz has performed at an All Star level this year, has the best season of his career.
Red Sox don’t make the playoffs without him.

You say Red Sox should have gotten more for Espinosa than Pomeranz.

Who did you think they could have or should have gotten instead?

Here is another article out today.....

http://www.masslive.com/redsox/index.ss ... rrell.html
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby rjsuperfly66 » 2 months ago

ramster wrote:It was a great trade.
Pomeranz has performed at an All Star level this year, has the best season of his career.
Red Sox don’t make the playoffs without him.

You say Red Sox should have gotten more for Espinosa than Pomeranz.

Who did you think they could have or should have gotten instead?

Here is another article out today.....

http://www.masslive.com/redsox/index.ss ... rrell.html


But this is where I think your logic is patently false ... Let's say the Celtics decided "We like Jeremy Lamb to be our SG of the future, let's trade Jayson Tatum for him." Lamb comes in, he scores 13 ppg as a 6th man this year, and starts next year as the SG. Tatum struggles as a rookie and tears his ACL in 2nd year. Does that make that a good trade because Lamb outplayed Tatum over those 2 years? Or was it a ridiculous overpayment because Tatum was a #3 overall pick and should have commanded a bigger haul? Just because Pomeranz came in and performed well doesn't justify whether or not the trade was great or not. If a guy is hitting .000 with 85 K's, and you trade Chris Sale for him, and then he hits .300 with 40 HR's, that doesn't make it a good deal. It's a great trade when you buy low and you get that value, not when you buy extraordinarily high.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby rodfromcranston » 2 months ago

It's always a great trade if you get what you need.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby TruePoint » 2 months ago

Who cares about winning the division and making the playoffs if you can't even be remotely competitive once you get there? The bottom line is that this is very poorly constructed team, not enough offensive firepower to beat good playoff pitching, not good enough pitching depth to get good hitters out consistently over the course of a playoff series.

This roster has a handful of championship-level players on it: Sale and Kimbrel are studs. Offensively, Betts, Benintendi and Devers all look like legitimate stars you can build around, but aren't in the phase of their career that they're going to carry an offense through three rounds of playoff series. The pitching staff needs more depth, which they could get just through guys like Price and Porcello bouncing back.

The offense is tougher. You need a big bat in the middle of the order that can drive runs in and take pressure off your young guys, but I worry that the price tag for Stanton would be astronomical. I wonder if JD Martinez is a viable option for this team. He's getting old and will probably require a deal longer and at higher AAV than the ownership would like to go. Not sure what Martinez's and Dombrowski's relationship was like at the end in Detroit, but Dombrowski did sign him after he was released by Houston in 2014. I would love to see them sign Machado when he hits free agency after next year, but there is another year of Sale's prime to not waste between now and then.

I wouldn't want to further deplete the farm system to trade for the help they need, but I don't even think they have the talent in the system right now to swing another big trade because Dombrowski is a freaking prospect spendthrift. The ownership is going to need to get over spending into the luxury tax, because it's the only prayer they have to make this team better. If they don't like spending that much money, they should have thought about that when they gave Larry Lucchino the checkbook and chased Theo out of town.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby NYGFan_Section208 » 2 months ago

rjsuperfly66 wrote:
ramster wrote:It was a great trade.
Pomeranz has performed at an All Star level this year, has the best season of his career.
Red Sox don’t make the playoffs without him.

You say Red Sox should have gotten more for Espinosa than Pomeranz.

Who did you think they could have or should have gotten instead?

Here is another article out today.....

http://www.masslive.com/redsox/index.ss ... rrell.html


But this is where I think your logic is patently false ... Let's say the Celtics decided "We like Jeremy Lamb to be our SG of the future, let's trade Jayson Tatum for him." Lamb comes in, he scores 13 ppg as a 6th man this year, and starts next year as the SG. Tatum struggles as a rookie and tears his ACL in 2nd year. Does that make that a good trade because Lamb outplayed Tatum over those 2 years? Or was it a ridiculous overpayment because Tatum was a #3 overall pick and should have commanded a bigger haul? Just because Pomeranz came in and performed well doesn't justify whether or not the trade was great or not. If a guy is hitting .000 with 85 K's, and you trade Chris Sale for him, and then he hits .300 with 40 HR's, that doesn't make it a good deal. It's a great trade when you buy low and you get that value, not when you buy extraordinarily high.


Pomeranz gave them exactly what they needed for a pitcher. To say they should have got more for Espinoza is no less speculation than the trade itself was, which worked out just awesome. What if they had traded for a 'proven' 'more' player and he sucked...like if the trade had been made for Porcello right after his Cy year and then he dropped the kind of steamer of a season he had this year on them? Would that have improved DD's stock for you?

Instead of saying they should have got more, maybe leave it at, 'good eye, nice call' on taking that Pomeranz fella, who developed into one of the top 10 starters in the league. I guess that's why GM's get paid to do future-stock stuff that I just fuss about."
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby adam914 » 2 months ago

Woah Woah Woah...Pomeranz one of the top 10 starters in the league? Not so sure about that.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby NYGFan_Section208 » 2 months ago

adam914 wrote:Woah Woah Woah...Pomeranz one of the top 10 starters in the league? Not so sure about that.


I'm not totally sure of it either :lol: ... but for this year, I'm thinking he has to be borderline...no worse than Top 15?
Like the Ramster said...likely would've been a post-season All-Star...

Edit: Going to double down on that...he has enough Top 10's in here to make me think it could be true:
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leag ... ders.shtml
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby adam914 » 2 months ago

NYGFan_Section208 wrote:
adam914 wrote:Woah Woah Woah...Pomeranz one of the top 10 starters in the league? Not so sure about that.


I'm not totally sure of it either :lol: ... but for this year, I'm thinking he has to be borderline...no worse than Top 15?
Like the Ramster said...likely would've been a post-season All-Star...

Edit: Going to double down on that...he has enough Top 10's in here to make me think it could be true:
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leag ... ders.shtml


If we're just talking AL then that's a different story. I thought you meant all of MLB.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby NYGFan_Section208 » 2 months ago

Yep, was just talking AL
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby TruePoint » 2 months ago

Pomeranz was comfortably outside the top 30 pitchers in baseball in WAR, FWIW.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby NYGFan_Section208 » 2 months ago

...at the link above, he was #9 in the AL?

WAR for Pitchers
1. Kluber • CLE 8.0
2. Verlander • 2TM 6.4
3. Sale • BOS 6.0
4. Stroman • TOR 5.8
5. Carrasco • CLE 5.4
6. Severino • NYY 5.3
7. Santana • MIN 4.6
8. Cashner • TEX 4.6
9. Pomeranz • BOS 4.0
10. Keuchel • HOU 3.9
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby NYGFan_Section208 » 2 months ago

NYGFan_Section208 wrote:...at the link above, he was #9 in the AL?

WAR for Pitchers
1. Kluber • CLE 8.0
2. Verlander • 2TM 6.4
3. Sale • BOS 6.0
4. Stroman • TOR 5.8
5. Carrasco • CLE 5.4
6. Severino • NYY 5.3
7. Santana • MIN 4.6
8. Cashner • TEX 4.6
9. Pomeranz • BOS 4.0
10. Keuchel • HOU 3.9


Then again...WAR is way above my complexity level for baseball....
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby rodfromcranston » 2 months ago

Dave Dombrowski was told by John Henry
not to go over the luxury tax threshhold.
That is pretty widely known.
I for one am glad Lucciano and Cherinton are gone.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby hrstrat57 » 2 months ago

2 game situation whines from me.....

Dave D got Addison Reed as a bridge weapon to Kimbrel.

The exact situation he was acquired for came up in the 8th, he was warmed up and ready.

Coaching staff left him standing there as a obviously gassed ( FB velocity down at least 5 mph from start of outing) Sale threw a meatball.

Kimbrel then called upon for the task he has demonstrated time and time again that he is not effective at - a "dirty " inning.

If I was Dave D I'd be freakin livid.

Thus I expect a house cleaning if ownership allows it. I also expect an all out run at Stanton and Eric Hosmer. Bradley, E Rod and others will go.
As I said, interesting offseason coming up.

Whine number 2 is that umpire blew multiple critical ball/strike calls. Check out Allan's analysis on the Joy of Sox blog. Well worth a read.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby ramster » 2 months ago

TruePoint wrote:Pomeranz was comfortably outside the top 30 pitchers in baseball in WAR, FWIW.


What is the link? Are you talking both leagues combined or just AL?
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby ramster » 2 months ago

rjsuperfly66 wrote:
ramster wrote:It was a great trade.
Pomeranz has performed at an All Star level this year, has the best season of his career.
Red Sox don’t make the playoffs without him.

You say Red Sox should have gotten more for Espinosa than Pomeranz.

Who did you think they could have or should have gotten instead?

Here is another article out today.....

http://www.masslive.com/redsox/index.ss ... rrell.html


But this is where I think your logic is patently false ... Let's say the Celtics decided "We like Jeremy Lamb to be our SG of the future, let's trade Jayson Tatum for him." Lamb comes in, he scores 13 ppg as a 6th man this year, and starts next year as the SG. Tatum struggles as a rookie and tears his ACL in 2nd year. Does that make that a good trade because Lamb outplayed Tatum over those 2 years? Or was it a ridiculous overpayment because Tatum was a #3 overall pick and should have commanded a bigger haul? Just because Pomeranz came in and performed well doesn't justify whether or not the trade was great or not. If a guy is hitting .000 with 85 K's, and you trade Chris Sale for him, and then he hits .300 with 40 HR's, that doesn't make it a good deal. It's a great trade when you buy low and you get that value, not when you buy extraordinarily high.


RJ,
It does not sound like there is any way, ever, that you would call the Red Sox winners in this trade, right? I liked the trade in the beginning and, as time has gone on I have loved it more and more.
BUT, and this is the key, it really doesn’t matter to your logic, right? Does not matter if Pomeranz wins 32 games next year with 3 no-hitters and a 1.66 ERA and leads both leagues in WAR, right?

Because bottom line, your point is that Dombrowki could have and should have gotten a lot more for Espinosa, right? I’m just trying to understand your point, and I think that is what you are now saying. If not, can you clarify?
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby hrstrat57 » 2 months ago

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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby TruePoint » 2 months ago

ramster wrote:
TruePoint wrote:Pomeranz was comfortably outside the top 30 pitchers in baseball in WAR, FWIW.


What is the link? Are you talking both leagues combined or just AL?


This is in all of baseball, and it's per fangraphs. The link is below, but I had to do some sorting and manual counting so beware.

http://www.fangraphs.com/warleaders.asp ... sort=3%2ca
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby ramster » 2 months ago

NYGFan_Section208 wrote:
adam914 wrote:Woah Woah Woah...Pomeranz one of the top 10 starters in the league? Not so sure about that.


I'm not totally sure of it either :lol: ... but for this year, I'm thinking he has to be borderline...no worse than Top 15?
Like the Ramster said...likely would've been a post-season All-Star...

Edit: Going to double down on that...he has enough Top 10's in here to make me think it could be true:
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leag ... ders.shtml


9th in WAR, 7th in ERA, 4th in Wins, 3rd in W/L Percentage, 9th in K's per 9 innings, 9th in Games Started

WAR for Pitchers
1. Kluber • CLE 8.0
2. Verlander • 2TM 6.4
3. Sale • BOS 6.0
4. Stroman • TOR 5.8
5. Carrasco • CLE 5.4
6. Severino • NYY 5.3
7. Santana • MIN 4.6
8. Cashner • TEX 4.6
9. Pomeranz • BOS 4.0
10. Keuchel • HOU 3.9

Earned Run Average
1. Kluber • CLE 2.25
2. Sale • BOS 2.90
3. Severino • NYY 2.98
4. Stroman • TOR 3.09
5. Santana • MIN 3.28
6. Carrasco • CLE 3.29
7. Pomeranz • BOS 3.32
8. Verlander • 2TM 3.36
9. Cashner • TEX 3.40
10. Gray • 2TM 3.55

Wins
1. Vargas • KCR 18
Kluber • CLE 18
Carrasco • CLE 18
4. Pomeranz • BOS 17
Bauer • CLE 17
Sale • BOS 17
7. Santana • MIN 16
8. Verlander • 2TM 15
9. Sabathia • NYY 14
Morton • HOU 14
Severino • NYY 14
Keuchel • HOU 14
Berrios • MIN 14

Win-Loss %
1. Kluber • CLE .818
2. Carrasco • CLE .750
3. Pomeranz • BOS .739
4. Keuchel • HOU .737
Sabathia • NYY .737
6. Paxton • SEA .706
7. Severino • NYY .700
8. Sale • BOS .680
9. Santana • MIN .667
Clevinger • CLE .667
Morton • HOU .667

Strikeouts per 9 IP
1. Sale • BOS 12.933
2. Kluber • CLE 11.710
3. Archer • TBR 11.149
4. Severino • NYY 10.707
5. Carrasco • CLE 10.170
6. Bauer • CLE 10.004
7. Tanaka • NYY 9.791
8. Verlander • 2TM 9.568
9. Pomeranz • BOS 9.017
10. Gausman • BAL 8.630

Games Started
1. Archer • TBR 34
Gausman • BAL 34
3. Porcello • BOS 33
Estrada • TOR 33
Santana • MIN 33
Nolasco • LAA 33
Verlander • 2TM 33
Stroman • TOR 33
9. Hammel • KCR 32
Pomeranz • BOS 32
Vargas • KCR 32
Miley • BAL 32
Carrasco • CLE 32
Sale • BOS 32
Perez • TEX 32
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby rjsuperfly66 » 2 months ago

ramster wrote:RJ,
It does not sound like there is any way, ever, that you would call the Red Sox winners in this trade, right? I liked the trade in the beginning and, as time has gone on I have loved it more and more.
BUT, and this is the key, it really doesn’t matter to your logic, right? Does not matter if Pomeranz wins 32 games next year with 3 no-hitters and a 1.66 ERA and leads both leagues in WAR, right?

Because bottom line, your point is that Dombrowki could have and should have gotten a lot more for Espinosa, right? I’m just trying to understand your point, and I think that is what you are now saying. If not, can you clarify?


I think there are two different words in play that have significantly different meanings.

1) "Win" - Did the Red Sox "win" the trade? From a statistical standpoint, Drew Pomeranz for Anderson Espinosa has been a clear win for the Red Sox at this point. Pomeranz overall has been a value add to the Sox rotation, through his regular season performance in 2017.

2) "Value" - Did the Red Sox "maximize" the value of the asset they were sending for Drew Pomeranz? I do not believe the Red Sox maximized the value of a Top 15 prospect, and overpaid by sending him for a guy who had a half good season, no track record of being able to pitch a full season, and no track record of postseason success.

It's an indication of the DD way. Every time you misuse one of the assets, it's one less bullet you have for a future move. There is no reason the Sox should not have been able to make that trade for two "B" level prospects or used Espinosa to get a bigger piece. The "it doesn't matter how you get there as long as you get there" is a terrible way to look at it. If the Patriots trade Tom Brady today for Jonathan Casillas, and Brady goes and breaks his arm tomorrow and retires at the end of the year, and Casillas comes in and becomes a starting LB, it doesn't make it a good value trade. Any person you traded TB12 for almost be a win at that point.

These Red Sox fans live in a world of delusion. At this time last year, there was still at least some depth in the Red Sox farm system to make a big move which landed Chris Sale. There are no excess pieces there. The only top remaining prospect in the farm system starting this season was Devers and he's now a contributing MLB piece. And then many (not all) of them will say "We'll we can't trade Devers and we can't trade Benitendi," and in the same breath say "We need Giancarlo Stanton." So the Red Sox are going to send Mookie Betts, 20 bags of rosen, 2 hot dog vendors, Wally, and John Henry?
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby NYGFan_Section208 » 2 months ago

Farrell...gone
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby NYGFan_Section208 » 2 months ago

rjsuperfly66 wrote:
ramster wrote:RJ,
It does not sound like there is any way, ever, that you would call the Red Sox winners in this trade, right? I liked the trade in the beginning and, as time has gone on I have loved it more and more.
BUT, and this is the key, it really doesn’t matter to your logic, right? Does not matter if Pomeranz wins 32 games next year with 3 no-hitters and a 1.66 ERA and leads both leagues in WAR, right?

Because bottom line, your point is that Dombrowki could have and should have gotten a lot more for Espinosa, right? I’m just trying to understand your point, and I think that is what you are now saying. If not, can you clarify?


I think there are two different words in play that have significantly different meanings.

1) "Win" - Did the Red Sox "win" the trade? From a statistical standpoint, Drew Pomeranz for Anderson Espinosa has been a clear win for the Red Sox at this point. Pomeranz overall has been a value add to the Sox rotation, through his regular season performance in 2017.

2) "Value" - Did the Red Sox "maximize" the value of the asset they were sending for Drew Pomeranz? I do not believe the Red Sox maximized the value of a Top 15 prospect, and overpaid by sending him for a guy who had a half good season, no track record of being able to pitch a full season, and no track record of postseason success.

It's an indication of the DD way. Every time you misuse one of the assets, it's one less bullet you have for a future move. There is no reason the Sox should not have been able to make that trade for two "B" level prospects or used Espinosa to get a bigger piece. The "it doesn't matter how you get there as long as you get there" is a terrible way to look at it. If the Patriots trade Tom Brady today for Jonathan Casillas, and Brady goes and breaks his arm tomorrow and retires at the end of the year, and Casillas comes in and becomes a starting LB, it doesn't make it a good value trade. Any person you traded TB12 for almost be a win at that point.

These Red Sox fans live in a world of delusion. At this time last year, there was still at least some depth in the Red Sox farm system to make a big move which landed Chris Sale. There are no excess pieces there. The only top remaining prospect in the farm system starting this season was Devers and he's now a contributing MLB piece. And then many (not all) of them will say "We'll we can't trade Devers and we can't trade Benitendi," and in the same breath say "We need Giancarlo Stanton." So the Red Sox are going to send Mookie Betts, 20 bags of rosen, 2 hot dog vendors, Wally, and John Henry?


Is there any possibility...any possibility at all...that this was a good trade because DD saw the potential in the Pommer that you could not? Any chance that maybe...juuuuust maybe....he's a better evaluator of talent than you are? ...and therefore recognized the value in him that your non-professional estimation did not? Like...maybe he was right, and you weren't? That maybe he/they knew more about both pieces of the trade than you, or any of us, did?

It's going to take major league players to get Stanton...but, you also have to consider Miami's position, it' likely they can't afford to keep the guy, so it lessens their leverage somewhat (altho prob not a ton). I think Betts, Bradley, Boegarts, Vasquez, and almost all of the pitchers can/should be on the table...and there should be enough there to get the guy, w/o including Devers or Benintendi.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby TruePoint » 2 months ago

No. Pomeranz is a replacement level pitcher and Espinoza was too high of a cost to pay, even if he never makes any impact at the big league level. Dombrowski has never properly valued prospects for either their potential as players or their value on the open market. He looks at trades like a simpleton - "oh I can get this guy who can help me today for a guy that's not helping me today? Done!" It would be like if you knew someone who you could keep getting to sell you their $1000 bonds for $10 because today the $10 bill is worth more than the bond.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby NYGFan_Section208 » 2 months ago

What does Pomeranz have to do to be considered more than a replacement level pitcher? If he repeats this year's stats for the next 5 years and Espinoza does nothing...will anyone ever get credit for recognizing that he possibly actually had more potential than Espinosa?

Or, can that just never happen? I mean, at some point, doesn't the 'prospect potential' have to line up with 'performance'? And, if it does/doesn't, give credit/take shots at whoever pulled the strings? I mean...they kept him, even after having the chance to give him back...I think they knew something about Espinosa...and I would not be surprised if he never pitches in the majors (I hope that's not the case for his sake, but...) I don't know the answer to this one either, but is it possible that GM's and people that run teams may know more about players than whatever "rating" boards there are out there?
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby rjsuperfly66 » 2 months ago

This has nothing to do with Pomeranz vs. Espinosa. It has to do with Pomeranz in July of 2016 vs. a Top 15 prospect.
Credit DD for seeing something in Pomeranz, its true, to this point it's been a very good move.
And credit him even more if he saw things in Espinosa that made him feel he wouldn't be an impactful MLB player.
But there were plenty of scouts out there who thought he could, otherwise he wouldn't have been a Top 15 prospect in the entire league.
So if thats your determination and you decide you are ok to move on from Espinosa, that's fine, just make sure you get proper value for that asset.
Further, identifying the talent (Pomeranz) doesn't mean you have to overpay to get it here.
The key to being able to identify talent is that you should be able to buy for less.
It's Danny Ainge seeing IT as a major talent and moving Marcus Thorton and a lower 1st round pick for him.
Sure, Danny Ainge could have gotten IT by trading a Brooklyn pick for him, any moron could do that deal.
When you have a prospect, or a draft pick, or a player whose a valuable asset, you don't trade them for less simply because you think the person you are trading them for could become something of importance.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby TruePoint » 2 months ago

Fangraphs calculates WAR a little different and had him as a top-15 pitcher in the AL in 2017. That seems pretty OK, I guess, but the real problem is that he only threw 173.2 innings across 32 starts - about 5.1 innings per start. That is atrocious. That is tremendously taxing to the bullpen over the course of the year, and it forces guys you wouldn't normally want in high-leverage situations to be on the mound in games they wouldn't otherwise pitch in. Part of being a good pitcher is limiting baserunners and runs, but starting pitchers also need to be efficient for reasons that can't always be effectively measured through their own individual stats. All the time this season, friends would text me "did you see Pommer's start?" because they know I think he's garbage, and every time I'd say the same thing: how many innings did he go? Because 1 run over 5 innings is good for your ERA but it sucks for your baseball team.

Also I'm sure someone posted above, but the John Farrell era has come to a merciful end.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby ramster » 2 months ago

173.2 was a career high inning total for Pomeranz.
I’ve said for years Farrell needs to go. He makes terrible decisions that often have the Red Sox announcers shaking their heads in dismay. There are so many boneheaded moves he has lost respect of players, fans, announcers, press, management. Look what was said about his dismissal - wins would not have made a difference.

And keep in mind Pomeranz does not take himself out - view this beauty of a conversation in the dugout after Farrell told Pomeranz he was not going back out.

Finally this guy is out of here.

https://www.thescore.com/news/1304934
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby Shaolin Swat » 2 months ago

To be fair, the conversation with Farrell in the dugout came after Pomeranz threw 97 pitches through 4 innings. He was consistently getting pulled because his pitch counts were rising way too high early in the game. He needs to be more efficient when he pitches and go deeper into games in order to be considered a top of the rotation starter.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby ramster » 2 months ago

RJ
We have it narrowed to 2 parts:
Part 1. The trade was good for Boston. They got a guy who established himself as the #2 Starting Pitcher in 2017 who was in the Top 10 in the American League in multiple categories including ERA, wins, win percentage, strikeouts per 9 innings, starts. His 17 wins were critically important this season considering Wright being injured, Price winning only 6 games and losing his starting job and Porcello having a bad year. It’s only 1.5 years so early to judge still. Espinosa missed this season and will miss 2018 due to Arm Surgery. Final assessment still years away. This is a fact based comparison.

Part 2. Boston gave up too much for Pomeranz. This is opinion based judgement. You, TP and others think Dombroski gave up too much for Pomeranz. You thought that when the trade was made and still do. As 208 said more elequently than I can, maybe the executives know more than we know. I remember someone posting, and I can’t find now, that a pitcher like Espinosa with a small frame, slight build could be vulnerable to arm trouble. Maybe the Red Sox knew something, maybe they didn’t - the point is none of us know who knew what - and never will. This is a discussion that will never end. It can’t because you have separated it from the actual performance of both individuals. So Part 1 clearly goes to the Trade and Pomerance with additional future years to be assessed.
Part 2 is simply differences of opinion. That’s the beauty of baseball, trades, strategies, the game itself.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby ramster » 2 months ago

Shaolin Swat wrote:To be fair, the conversation with Farrell in the dugout came after Pomeranz threw 97 pitches through 4 innings. He was consistently getting pulled because his pitch counts were rising way too high early in the game. He needs to be more efficient when he pitches and go deeper into games in order to be considered a top of the rotation starter.


He wanted to pitch more And Farrell said no. Pissed off Pomeranz. He could have gone into the 5th inning. Farrell also stole the opportunity for Pomeranz to win the game limiting him to only 4 inn8nfs. Just like he pissed off a lot of players. Now that he is finally axed let’s see how the starting pitching goes.

I’ve wanted Farrell out for years, finally I get my wish.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby ramster » 2 months ago

Here is the Cy Young Predictor for the AL.
Sale is second, Kimbrell 3rd and Pomeranz 5th. Who would have thunk it

http://www.espn.com/mlb/features/cyyoung
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby Shaolin Swat » 2 months ago

ramster wrote:
Shaolin Swat wrote:To be fair, the conversation with Farrell in the dugout came after Pomeranz threw 97 pitches through 4 innings. He was consistently getting pulled because his pitch counts were rising way too high early in the game. He needs to be more efficient when he pitches and go deeper into games in order to be considered a top of the rotation starter.


He wanted to pitch more And Farrell said no. Pissed off Pomeranz. He could have gone into the 5th inning. Farrell also stole the opportunity for Pomeranz to win the game limiting him to only 4 inn8nfs. Just like he pissed off a lot of players. Now that he is finally axed let’s see how the starting pitching goes.

I’ve wanted Farrell out for years, finally I get my wish.


He labored through 4 innings, it was absolutely the right call to pull him in that situation. The only argument for leaving him in the game in that situation is to try to pad his stats and get him another win, which would have put Pomeranz's success over the team's success.

I'm no fan of Farrell, he makes too many questionable in-game decisions, and when so many talented young players see their development stagnate at the same time, like Betts and Bogaerts), is an indication that the manager's message has been lost. It was time for him to go.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby NYGFan_Section208 » 2 months ago

Well...there you have it...only thing worse than the Sox winning the division and puking down their leg would be to have the yankmes surpass...

Check and check.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby ramster » 2 months ago

Shaolin Swat wrote:
ramster wrote:
Shaolin Swat wrote:To be fair, the conversation with Farrell in the dugout came after Pomeranz threw 97 pitches through 4 innings. He was consistently getting pulled because his pitch counts were rising way too high early in the game. He needs to be more efficient when he pitches and go deeper into games in order to be considered a top of the rotation starter.


He wanted to pitch more And Farrell said no. Pissed off Pomeranz. He could have gone into the 5th inning. Farrell also stole the opportunity for Pomeranz to win the game limiting him to only 4 inn8nfs. Just like he pissed off a lot of players. Now that he is finally axed let’s see how the starting pitching goes.

I’ve wanted Farrell out for years, finally I get my wish.


He labored through 4 innings, it was absolutely the right call to pull him in that situation. The only argument for leaving him in the game in that situation is to try to pad his stats and get him another win, which would have put Pomeranz's success over the team's success.

I'm no fan of Farrell, he makes too many questionable in-game decisions, and when so many talented young players see their development stagnate at the same time, like Betts and Bogaerts), is an indication that the manager's message has been lost. It was time for him to go.


I am using this example since TP made the point that Pomeranz only pitched 5.1 innings per game. My point is that Pomeranz wanted to pitch more in this situation but Farrell would not let him - point being is the Manager makes the decision. Now that Farrell is gone it will be interesting to see how many innings the Starters are allowed to go.

Pomeranz 32 starts 173.2 innings = 5.1
Sales 32 starts 214.1 innings = 6.2 or 4 outs more than Pomeranz)
Porcello 33 starts 203.1 innings = 6.0 or 2 outs more than Pomeranz
Rodriguez 25 starts 137.1 innings = 5.1 or same as Pomeranz

Pomeranz had Stem cell in his elbow after last season, and experimental treatment he wanted to try. Not sure why Farrell held Pomeranz back. Maybe because he wanted him strong at the end of the season? Maybe because the 173.2 innings were a career high for him anyway and he did not want to push him too far? Maybe because he lost Wright for the season and Price was a big disappointment winning only 6 games? Porcello also a big disappointment. Maybe he felt he could not afford to lose his #2 starter to injury?

If Pomeranz was taking himself out it would be one thing, but Farrell calls the shots.

Will be very interesting to see how a new manager handles all the starting pitchers as far as innings allowed to pitch.

Bottom line, Pomeranz had an All Star caliber year, finishing in the Top 10 among starting pitchers in ERA, Wins, W/L Percentage, K's per 9 inning game. Way above expectations of everyone going into this season. Wish I could say the same about the other starting pitchers (other than Sale)
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby NYGFan_Section208 » 2 months ago

Pomeranz' comparative innings deficit was way more often due to the number of pitches it takes him than effectiveness...
Without researching, I would venture that he was top 5 in the majors in "# of times in excess of 50 pitches in (not after) the third inning"
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby TruePoint » 2 months ago

Right. Pomeranz's main issue was inefficiency. An easy way to understand this is that Pomeranz threw the 24th most pitches in baseball in 2017 but was 42nd in innings pitched. Previously in his career he'd been injury prone and hadn't pitched a respectable number of innings in a season, which was one of the reasons I was not a fan of the trade at the time. Now it seems like his issue with being able to eat innings wasn't limited to just injuries. Either he isn't confident enough in his stuff to beat hitters in the zone or he doesn't have the control stay in the zone consistently. As I mentioned before, it isn't just annoying to watch a nibbler pitch, it's also taxing on the bullpen. Pomeranz didn't throw one eighth inning pitch all year, and only made it into the seventh inning in about a quarter of his starts. From July through the end of the season, he went at least 100 pitches into almost every game so I don't think you can make the argument that he was getting a quick hook. Farrell being a terrible in-game manager is probably something we agree on, but I don't think Pomeranz's short starts were part of that problem.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby Shaolin Swat » 2 months ago

I'll admit that Pomeranz has exceeded my expectations since arriving in Boston. However, the innings total on the season and the inability to go deep into games falls on Pomeranz, not the manager. Pomeranz consistently runs his pitch count too high early in the game and prevents himself from consistently being able to go past the 5th inning.

A new manager is not going to change how deep Pomeranz goes into the game if he continues to be inefficient with his pitches and run up his pitch counts early in the game.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby rodfromcranston » 2 months ago

Did anyone see, where media darling Aaron Judge
struck out a record 16 times in the Cleveland series,
hitting .059?
That's more than Tony Gwynn K'd in an entire season!
Maybe Judge can loan himself to a wind farm, with all
his gigantic swing and misses?
If he gets MVP over Altuve, Bob Mueller should investigate that, too.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby ramster » 2 months ago

Shaolin Swat wrote:I'll admit that Pomeranz has exceeded my expectations since arriving in Boston. However, the innings total on the season and the inability to go deep into games falls on Pomeranz, not the manager. Pomeranz consistently runs his pitch count too high early in the game and prevents himself from consistently being able to go past the 5th inning.

A new manager is not going to change how deep Pomeranz goes into the game if he continues to be inefficient with his pitches and run up his pitch counts early in the game.


Nice to hear how he exceeded your expectations.

Pomeranz said after the last game that he was going to work on his strength over the winter. I saw on TV the last game that Pomeranz led the American League in Curve Balls thrown for strikes. He mixes up his pitches and batters take a lot of pitches from him.

If it all falls on Pomeranz that he is 100% responsible for how deep he pitches into games and 0% on the Managere I would disagree. Managers have different philosophies on how deep pitchers go. In fact the entire world of baseball has changed over the years. Cy Young, Joe Wood, Babe Ruth, Warren Sphann, etc all used to pitch complete 9 inning games all the time. Things have changed a lot. Now have middle relievers, 8th inning guys, 9th inning guys, not like it used to be. But fine, that is something that Pomeranz himself said he wanted to work on in the offseason - great.

Note also that if the Red Sox hadn't blown game 4 and they had gotten something out of the bases loaded - no outs inning where Bradley looked at 3 called strikes and then Pedroia got called out on strikes right after him with the based loade that Pomeranz was going to pitch the critical game 5 in Houston - not Espinosa, Pomeranz.

You got me looking at Salaries too. Pomeranz is 11th on the Sox in Salary per year:
Price - $30M
Ramirez - $23M
Porcello - $20M
Pedroia - $15M
Kimbrell - $13m
Sale - $12M
Reed - $8M
Young - $6.5M
Moreland - $5M
Bogaerts - $4.5M
Pomeranz - $4.45M

Seems to me the Elephant in the room is Price. He was signed by your buddy DD. He makes 6.7 times more money than Pomeranz. He won 6 games. He caused disruption with teammates. He got into a big spat with Dennis Eckersly. If you asked DD what move he might want to reverse if he could I think it is the Price deal - but nobody seems to want to talk about the $217 million dollar man

Even Porcello at $20 million was a disaster this year. A 20 game winner was tracking towards losing 20 for a while.

Ramirez batting 250 and getting $23 million a year? He was expected to help replace the absence of Ortiz - not even close.

To me you can argue whether Pomeranz for Espinosa was a good trade at the time. At the time.

But now? Clearly Pomeranz was critically important to the Red Sox. Again, 17-6 record, Top 10 in ERA with 3.32 in Fenway Park - a tough park for lefties, Top 10 in K's per 9 inning game, Top 5 in W/L percentage...............He was Boston's #2 Starter - something not one of you naysayers would every have guessed preseason. He was scheduled to pitch Game 5 of the Playoffs if there was one. He goes into next season as the #2 Pitcher on the staff. Let's see what Year 3 brings in the ongoing trade analysis :roll: :roll:

More importantly let's talk about the real problems with the Red Sox including Price, Porcello, Ramirez, and an entire starting 9 with not one guy hitting over 300, not a single grand slam, and a line up that is very short of power hitters.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby rodfromcranston » 2 months ago

Dustin Pedroia has become a real problem.
He's breaking down and he has FIVE more years
on his contract.
Plus, a big ego. How will he adjust to less playing time?
His playoff performance was putrid, and Farrell
batting him in leadoff was equally bad.
Lots of bad contracts, stifling revamping a roster
that badly needs a new look.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby Shaolin Swat » 2 months ago

ramster wrote:
Shaolin Swat wrote:I'll admit that Pomeranz has exceeded my expectations since arriving in Boston. However, the innings total on the season and the inability to go deep into games falls on Pomeranz, not the manager. Pomeranz consistently runs his pitch count too high early in the game and prevents himself from consistently being able to go past the 5th inning.

A new manager is not going to change how deep Pomeranz goes into the game if he continues to be inefficient with his pitches and run up his pitch counts early in the game.


Nice to hear how he exceeded your expectations.

Pomeranz said after the last game that he was going to work on his strength over the winter. I saw on TV the last game that Pomeranz led the American League in Curve Balls thrown for strikes. He mixes up his pitches and batters take a lot of pitches from him.

If it all falls on Pomeranz that he is 100% responsible for how deep he pitches into games and 0% on the Managere I would disagree. Managers have different philosophies on how deep pitchers go. In fact the entire world of baseball has changed over the years. Cy Young, Joe Wood, Babe Ruth, Warren Sphann, etc all used to pitch complete 9 inning games all the time. Things have changed a lot. Now have middle relievers, 8th inning guys, 9th inning guys, not like it used to be. But fine, that is something that Pomeranz himself said he wanted to work on in the offseason - great.

Note also that if the Red Sox hadn't blown game 4 and they had gotten something out of the bases loaded - no outs inning where Bradley looked at 3 called strikes and then Pedroia got called out on strikes right after him with the based loade that Pomeranz was going to pitch the critical game 5 in Houston - not Espinosa, Pomeranz.

You got me looking at Salaries too. Pomeranz is 11th on the Sox in Salary per year:
Price - $30M
Ramirez - $23M
Porcello - $20M
Pedroia - $15M
Kimbrell - $13m
Sale - $12M
Reed - $8M
Young - $6.5M
Moreland - $5M
Bogaerts - $4.5M
Pomeranz - $4.45M

Seems to me the Elephant in the room is Price. He was signed by your buddy DD. He makes 6.7 times more money than Pomeranz. He won 6 games. He caused disruption with teammates. He got into a big spat with Dennis Eckersly. If you asked DD what move he might want to reverse if he could I think it is the Price deal - but nobody seems to want to talk about the $217 million dollar man

Even Porcello at $20 million was a disaster this year. A 20 game winner was tracking towards losing 20 for a while.

Ramirez batting 250 and getting $23 million a year? He was expected to help replace the absence of Ortiz - not even close.

To me you can argue whether Pomeranz for Espinosa was a good trade at the time. At the time.

But now? Clearly Pomeranz was critically important to the Red Sox. Again, 17-6 record, Top 10 in ERA with 3.32 in Fenway Park - a tough park for lefties, Top 10 in K's per 9 inning game, Top 5 in W/L percentage...............He was Boston's #2 Starter - something not one of you naysayers would every have guessed preseason. He was scheduled to pitch Game 5 of the Playoffs if there was one. He goes into next season as the #2 Pitcher on the staff. Let's see what Year 3 brings in the ongoing trade analysis :roll: :roll:

More importantly let's talk about the real problems with the Red Sox including Price, Porcello, Ramirez, and an entire starting 9 with not one guy hitting over 300, not a single grand slam, and a line up that is very short of power hitters.


At no point did I say that this is 100% on pitchers and 0% on managers, so let’s not twist my argument. The fact of the matter is that a pitcher with 100 pitches thrown in the 4th or 5th inning is getting pulled every time, no matter who the manager is. Looking through Pomeranz’s starts, there are literally 3 starts (5/14, 6/27 and 8/18) where you could argue that he was pulled early without an abnormally high pitch count and while he was not getting hit hard. Those starts are on the manager, and I’d be curious to see why he was pulled in those games. Pomeranz also had 9 starts where he went 4 or 5 innings and threw 93+ pitches; those early exits are on him, not the manager.

Let’s not bring pitchers who threw between 1920 and 1960 into the argument either. I think it’s pretty apparent that there has been an increase in the information available on the arm and how to protect it since then. Yes, those guys you mentioned were absolute workhorses, but for every guy like that, there are guys like Sandy Koufax who saw their career end prematurely due to arm problems.

At what point did I refer to Dombrowski in a positive light? I think he’s been a bad hire since Day 1 and is quickly doing the exact same thing that he did in Detroit – sacrifice long-term organizational strength for short-term gain. Since he took over, he has left the minor league system completely barren and what do we have to show for it now – 1 playoff win. How does this team improve and become a championship contender? There aren’t any reinforcements coming from the minors, so we have to rely on trades and free agency. Except, we don’t have any more quality prospects to trade for established major leaguers without taking talent off of the major league roster. That leaves us with free agency, where we get to overpay players for what they’ve done in the past, not for what they will do for us. On top of that, without going deep into the luxury tax, which ownership doesn’t want to do, they can’t build a well-rounded roster in free agency.

As far as David Price is concerned, he is not nearly the problem that he is made out to be. He is exactly who he’s been throughout his career, outside of the first month of his contract he has pitched to a 3.38 ERA, which is right around his career numbers. And since you love wins so much, he had 17 of them last year – just as many as Pomeranz this year. On top of that, this year he pitched through an elbow injury that would cause Tommy John surgery for most pitchers. How has he caused disruption with his teammates? The spat with Eckersley? Right or wrong, his teammates loved him for it – because he was defending a teammate. All that said, would Dombrowsi like to reverse that contract signing? Probably and, to be honest, so would I. It was an overpay from Day 1, and was offered because ownership made the mistake of trying to lowball Lester in free agency the year before and panicked because they needed a name to anchor the rotation.

The Pomeranz-Espinoza trade has gone back and forth ad nauseum here. The trade itself was an overpay in prospect capital, which is all that was being argued on here. The argument was never against Pomeranz, the argument was about whether they could have gotten Pomeranz for a lower ranked prospect and been able to keep Espinoza in the organization for a later trade or for organizational depth. In that case, perhaps Espinoza would have been traded as part of the Sale deal instead of Michael Kopech?
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby NYGFan_Section208 » 2 months ago

rodfromcranston wrote:Dustin Pedroia has become a real problem.
He's breaking down and he has FIVE more years
on his contract.
Plus, a big ego. How will he adjust to less playing time?
His playoff performance was putrid, and Farrell
batting him in leadoff was equally bad.
Lots of bad contracts, stifling revamping a roster
that badly needs a new look.


I'm bummed that I can only like this post once...

Pedroia is a HUGE problem....Big ego, bad attitude, declining skills and unlikeable. What a combo...
Price is the same with the only difference that really maters....big ego, bad attitude and unlikeable, but with 'skills', that at least 'can' make him 'tolerable'.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby rodfromcranston » 2 months ago

How can anyone try to blame the Sox problems on
Dave Dombrowski?
He inherited a shit show from Cherington-Lucciano.
Sandoval,Ramirez,Pedroia and Porcello, all with
ridiculous contracts.
A manager who wasn't fired, because he had cancer.
What he did was trade for a top reliever, and two starting pitchers
in their prime.
How is this short term?
One reason the Sox have less prospects than before is,
Benitendi, Betts, Rodriguez, and Devers are all 25 and under players
who are with the big club.
Had ownership- allowed Dombrowski to sign Edwin Encarnacion,
all this negativity towards the GM would have been avoided.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby Shaolin Swat » 2 months ago

I consider it short-term because, in making trades of that magnitude, you should be a championship contender after those trades or at least have the flexibility to still acquire a player if needed in-season. The Red Sox, as currently construed, are not a championship contender. Remember, after all these trades, we were still left with Doug Fister starting a playoff game. They didn't have the flexibility to add another pitcher (whether through trade or a young pitcher from the minors) during the season when we were hit with injuries.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby rjsuperfly66 » 2 months ago

rodfromcranston wrote:How can anyone try to blame the Sox problems on
Dave Dombrowski?


I think it's a complex question.
DD did not inherit a good situation -- He basically inherited a team full of a lot of young talent and a great farm system, but one that was also linked to several bad contracts given to veterans, and he needed to find a way to assist a talent deficiency.
However outside of Price, how did he make almost every other major deal?
It was deals involving one or more major prospects to land a MLB ready player.
A lot of people (yourself included), have stated that prospects are lottery tickets that don't often work out.
The problem is to many people the more lottery tickets you have, the better chance of winning the lottery.
So now DD has a team that he's all but boxed into a 2-3 year window.
Sale, Pomeranz, Betts, JBJ, Boegarts, Kimbrel, those guys will all become free agents.
Some of them will command extraordinary money.
Behind them, there are no reinforcements.
But if John Henry is going to continue to be resistant to exceeding the luxury tax, this is trending towards a very bad place -- It's easy to stay under when you can trade 2 top prospects for a Top 5 MLB pitcher making less than $15 million per season ... What happens now that you are out of prospects and can only resign your players or sign FA's to max money?
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby NYGFan_Section208 » 2 months ago

I'm too lazy, but maybe someone could do a recap on the "top" prospects that DD traded away and what they got? Seems to me, it really hasn't been a big number (Moncada, Espinosa, Koepeck...none of which has done anything yet). Like noted above, seems like all of their top prospects are on the roster? Benitendi, Betts, Rodriguez, Boegaerts, Devers, Vasquez... Just curious if the real reason for the current 'shortage of prospects' isn't the fact they're mostly all on the roster and they just haven't picked up many new ones?
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby rjsuperfly66 » 2 months ago

NYGFan_Section208 wrote:I'm too lazy, but maybe someone could do a recap on the "top" prospects that DD traded away and what they got? Seems to me, it really hasn't been a big number (Moncada, Espinosa, Koepeck...none of which has done anything yet). Like noted above, seems like all of their top prospects are on the roster? Benitendi, Betts, Rodriguez, Boegaerts, Devers, Vasquez... Just curious if the real reason for the current 'shortage of prospects' isn't the fact they're mostly all on the roster and they just haven't picked up many new ones?


Why do you keep talking about what prospects have done? You draft a kid at 18 years old, he's going to take in most cases 4-5 years to be MLB ready. Just because you trade a 18-19 year old kid like Espinosa or Kopech who "hasn't done anything" doesn't mean they aren't valuable assets ... Manuel Margot, Anderson Espinosa, Yoan Moncada were top 20 prospects at the time of their trades, Michael Kopech I believe had just broken Top 50 before the trade and is since climbing rapidly.Then there are the B and C level guys that have been moved in other deals like Mauricio Dubon, Carlos Asuaje, Logan Allen, and Luis Alexander Basabe. The only remaining valuable prospect in their system is Jason Groome. So yes, they have lost some prospects like Benitendi and Devers in recent years due to coming up to the majors, but they have also traded away many other guys. If they want to make a big trade now, it's going to require peeling those types of players off the roster. The advantage of "draft and develop" is with guys like Betts, they were going to get a 6-7 year window. There is no one in the minors right now who looks to be able to plug in with any big roster changes.
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby rodfromcranston » 2 months ago

So, tell us where Manuel Margot was going to play
on the Red Sox?
Again for those who don't get trading prospects for proven
talent:
Cliff Lee was traded for 13 "prospects" during his career.
Most were the trading team's top or near the top prospects.
Not ONE of those highly touted prospects ever made any significant
impact in MLB.
All the teams who traded for Lee thoroughly scouted the minors for
the prospects dealt.
All prospects are suspects until they prove themselves at MLB level.
We've cataloged the prospects who have made the Red Sox, in
significant numbers.
There was no place for Moncada, or Margot, let alone those
lower level players traded.
The purpose of the farm system is to fill holes in the MLB roster
either by playing prospects or trading them to fill those holes.
The only player who makes me wince that was traded is
Anthony Rizzo, who was traded because Theo had a willy for
Adrian Gonzalez, who was not what Theo thought he was,
and never really fit in in Boston.
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NYGFan_Section208
Carlton Owens
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Re: Red Sox and other Major League Baseball

Unread postby NYGFan_Section208 » 2 months ago

rjsuperfly66 wrote:
NYGFan_Section208 wrote:I'm too lazy, but maybe someone could do a recap on the "top" prospects that DD traded away and what they got? Seems to me, it really hasn't been a big number (Moncada, Espinosa, Koepeck...none of which has done anything yet). Like noted above, seems like all of their top prospects are on the roster? Benitendi, Betts, Rodriguez, Boegaerts, Devers, Vasquez... Just curious if the real reason for the current 'shortage of prospects' isn't the fact they're mostly all on the roster and they just haven't picked up many new ones?


Why do you keep talking about what prospects have done? You draft a kid at 18 years old, he's going to take in most cases 4-5 years to be MLB ready. Just because you trade a 18-19 year old kid like Espinosa or Kopech who "hasn't done anything" doesn't mean they aren't valuable assets ... Manuel Margot, Anderson Espinosa, Yoan Moncada were top 20 prospects at the time of their trades, Michael Kopech I believe had just broken Top 50 before the trade and is since climbing rapidly.Then there are the B and C level guys that have been moved in other deals like Mauricio Dubon, Carlos Asuaje, Logan Allen, and Luis Alexander Basabe. The only remaining valuable prospect in their system is Jason Groome. So yes, they have lost some prospects like Benitendi and Devers in recent years due to coming up to the majors, but they have also traded away many other guys. If they want to make a big trade now, it's going to require peeling those types of players off the roster. The advantage of "draft and develop" is with guys like Betts, they were going to get a 6-7 year window. There is no one in the minors right now who looks to be able to plug in with any big roster changes.



Ok...take out the 'have done' part...who are the 'real' prospects they have traded? Most of those you list...seem to be NOHEHOHs (No One Has Ever Heard Of Him)....and please..."B and C" level prospects...really??? We're really talking about B and C level prospects? Who are the "many other guys" that anyone has ever heard of? I think maybe a bigger challenge than trading away prospects might be getting them in the first place. And I think anytime you can exchange a B or C level prospect for someone that can...I don't know...play in the major leagues maybe...it's probably a good thing.

So far...looks like we're really only talking about 3 guys (Moncada, Espinosa, and maybe Kopech) that could be considered high level prospects traded away recently...and seems worthwhile so far..
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