Toll Gantries

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OBRAM
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Toll Gantries

Unread post by OBRAM »

It will cost $43 million to put up the 14 toll gantries in RI. That's half the price of Studio 38, 1/5 the price of State buying and fixing over the Dunk, but it seems just like another white elephant as the other two.
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Re: Toll Gantries

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We could get a nice football stadium with that money.
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Re: Toll Gantries

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Legalize it...
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by ATPTourFan »

I have no problem with the truck tolls. Convince me why I should be concerned. I am more concerned that doing nothing will not fix the backlog of bridge maintenance which will only get more expensive as the work is delayed.
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by ramfan85 »

Does anyone believe that they will be using those tolls for just trucks?
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by ramster »

The lady over the state slogan is going to oversee the toll system.
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Re: Toll Gantries

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Put it this way, is there another quicker way for the state to earn money it needs to fix our infrastructure?
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Re: Toll Gantries

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Rhodymob05 wrote:Put it this way, is there another quicker way for the state to earn money it needs to fix our infrastructure?
Reefer.
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by Rhodymob05 »

That would be sad if we had to get RI high in order to pay for potholes and bridges.
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by STC »

I don't think it is sad at all and legalization feels like an inevitability at this point, especially if you let the voters of Rhode Island decide.

It's also a heck of a lot more popular than toll booths. I think the issue is I don't trust our elected officials to use the money correctly.

Also, why did RI stop taxing alcohol? That was one tax I found reasonable and could accept.
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by BleedBlue87 »

STC wrote:
Rhodymob05 wrote:Put it this way, is there another quicker way for the state to earn money it needs to fix our infrastructure?
Reefer.
Yeah that's not true at all. When you include worker productivity, school performance, regulatory framework, and health costs, legalized marijuana costs more than it brings in in tax revenue.
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Re: Toll Gantries

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Colorado has proven you wrong bleed blue, but keep living in the '50s.
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by ramster »

Toll Booths are a bad idea
Are there states building more Toll Booths besides RI?
Seems like a thing of the past and are being taken down in some cases
So here is RI trying to promote Tourism then we are going to welcome those people in with Tolls
Promote Tourism, raise the Hotel, Rental Car and Restaurant Taxes and get money from the Tourists. Beautiful State, Economy is buzzing ahead, Hotel Stocks are doing well - Marriott, Starwoods, Hyatt, etc.
Toll Booths will just create more government jobs
Raimondo should stick with reducing pensions, reducing government jobs and waste and she needs to come up with a good Tourism marketing campaign. "Cooler and Warmer" just got the ball rulling with National Publicity (the stupid, late night comedy show type) but now it is time to come up with a really good slogan - strike while the iron is hot!!!
Let Rhode Island School of Design come up with the slogan
Let RI High Schools come up with one
Hold a state wide contest with the winner getting a week's stay at Taylor's Mansion
It is so easy to come up with a great slogan.
RI could become a huge tourist destination - minus the Toll Booths
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by BleedBlue87 »

RhowdyRam02 wrote:Colorado has proven you wrong bleed blue, but keep living in the '50s.
Actually Colorado is exactly where I've been getting that information. I was pro-legalization until seeing the stats come out of Colorado and Washington. But keep ignoring facts Rhowdy!
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by ramfan85 »

"Welcome to RI, Home of Lobsters and Mobsters"
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by ATPTourFan »

ramfan85 wrote:Does anyone believe that they will be using those tolls for just trucks?
RI State Law doesn't permit these for tolling passenger vehicles. Also, I believe RI would have to get Federal approval to expand any tolling on Interstates beyond the initially approved measure.
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by ATPTourFan »

ramster wrote:Toll Booths are a bad idea
Are there states building more Toll Booths besides RI?
Seems like a thing of the past and are being taken down in some cases
So here is RI trying to promote Tourism then we are going to welcome those people in with Tolls
Promote Tourism, raise the Hotel, Rental Car and Restaurant Taxes and get money from the Tourists. Beautiful State, Economy is buzzing ahead, Hotel Stocks are doing well - Marriott, Starwoods, Hyatt, etc.
Toll Booths will just create more government jobs
Raimondo should stick with reducing pensions, reducing government jobs and waste and she needs to come up with a good Tourism marketing campaign. "Cooler and Warmer" just got the ball rulling with National Publicity (the stupid, late night comedy show type) but now it is time to come up with a really good slogan - strike while the iron is hot!!!
Let Rhode Island School of Design come up with the slogan
Let RI High Schools come up with one
Hold a state wide contest with the winner getting a week's stay at Taylor's Mansion
It is so easy to come up with a great slogan.
RI could become a huge tourist destination - minus the Toll Booths
Ramster, these are the modern Toll Booths that do not require any traffic to slow down (nevermind stop). Only certain classes of commercial vehicles (big trucks) are being tolled.

Trucks not only damage the roads and bridges the most due to their weight, but because RI is so small, most trucks don't stop to fill their tanks in-state. This means RI loses out on the gas tax revenue other states are virtually guaranteed to receive since trucks cannot so easily pass through without running low on fuel.

When I drive into New Hampshire in the Summer at 75mph and fly under these modern gantries, I don't think New Hampshire hates me. They are having the people/companies who USE their highways to pay for those highways. I'm sure the residents of New Hampshire who don't live near and use the highways are happy they aren't on the hook to pay the full cost of upkeep when so many from out of state use the road.

Waiting any longer to repair the bridges in RI will only make those repairs more costly.

I have yet to see a good, factual argument against these tolls. So much anti-toll sentiment is based off non-factual information and fears.
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by URI96 »

ramster wrote:Toll Booths are a bad idea
Are there states building more Toll Booths besides RI?
Seems like a thing of the past and are being taken down in some cases
So here is RI trying to promote Tourism then we are going to welcome those people in with Tolls
Promote Tourism, raise the Hotel, Rental Car and Restaurant Taxes and get money from the Tourists. Beautiful State, Economy is buzzing ahead, Hotel Stocks are doing well - Marriott, Starwoods, Hyatt, etc.
Toll Booths will just create more government jobs
Raimondo should stick with reducing pensions, reducing government jobs and waste and she needs to come up with a good Tourism marketing campaign. "Cooler and Warmer" just got the ball rulling with National Publicity (the stupid, late night comedy show type) but now it is time to come up with a really good slogan - strike while the iron is hot!!!
Let Rhode Island School of Design come up with the slogan
Let RI High Schools come up with one
Hold a state wide contest with the winner getting a week's stay at Taylor's Mansion
It is so easy to come up with a great slogan.
RI could become a huge tourist destination - minus the Toll Booths
Most states have tolls. I don't see what the big deal is.
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by OBRAM »

State budget increase maybe twice as fast or more than inflation. Seems like we have a spending problem.
Lottery was supposed to fix all the problems 40 years ago, after you legalize Marijuana, what comes next after you still
can't bring in enough revenue?
Next governor is really going to have a mess to clean up, with all the new hires for positions that did not even exist, (over 200 new hires for positions that did not exist). That is over $25 million in cost per year.
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by ramster »

Most states have tolls. I don't see what the big deal is.
The big deal is that this does not address the real problem which is excessive spending
-38 studio
-botched marketing campaign for a tourism slogan - why didn't people at the top know this was going bad? why even release the bad slogan? government not in control of the right things
-many, many small town governments, school systems, police departments, fire departments
-excessive pensions
-high corporate taxes that make companies avoid the state
-MBTA debt from low ridership from Wickford and Warwick
-corruption
-roads and bridges not kept up in the past - now need to pay the piper
-very low support for state university
-inability to make sensible decision for Pawtucket Red Sox - still in limbo
-lack of trust in government
-toll system will create more state jobs, more state pensions, more state potential for corruption, more complexity
-How many toll gantries have Connecticut and Mass. added over the last 20 years?

the problem is a spending problem first
stop the bleeding

There are many toll roads in the United States; as of 2006, toll roads exist in 26 states, with the majority of states without any toll roads being in the West and South. In 2015, there were 5,000 miles (8,000 km) of toll roads in the country.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toll_road ... ted_States
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by OBRAM »

If anything, the jamming thru the General Assembly proves how much power the Laborers Unions has, and why the roads are not in good shape. It is cozy relationship with the DOT, Laborers Unions, Construction Companies, and the Powers in the General Assembly.
ramster wrote:
-toll system will create more state jobs, more state pensions, more state potential for corruption, more complexity
-How many toll gantries have Connecticut and Mass. added over the last 20 years?

the problem is a spending problem first
stop the bleeding
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by BleedBlue87 »

Just want to point out a few misconceptions here. Rhode Island is well below the average for public employee payrolls. We are the lowest in New England and I believe we are the second lowest, per capita, in the entire country. So to say there is some bloated government workforce is not true. Secondly, there has never been enough money to keep up with road and bridge maintenance. Our great state has one of the most extreme freeze/thaw cycles of anywhere in the country which makes it extremely difficult to keep up on road repairs. We also have an idiotic policy of wanting the snow on the roads cleared to the black pavement which causes additional damage. Third, there is little evidence to show that consolidation saves any money. Fourth, companies don't come here not because of the tax regime but because of the high energy costs, ridiculous regulations, and the fact that we have no competitive advantages to speak of at the moment. Somewhere we could look to fix is our building codes. Right now it costs just as much to build a residential complex in Providence as it does in Boston but you end up with half the rent. It makes no sense. So stuff like mandatory parking spaces, lot sizes, etc should all be looked at.
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by BleedBlue87 »

Also with this whole corruption stuff; Rhode Island doesn't even top the lists of states with the most corruption. Every little incident here is magnified here because of our size. The facts show that we are not rampart with corruption. That's the media getting in your head with their sensationalized stories.
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by ATPTourFan »

87 could you please state your definition of public payroll and what it includes? Also do you have any sources? Thanks
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by ATPTourFan »

Thx. Good info there.
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by RhowdyRam02 »

From that article:

"According to the analysis, Rhode Island had 458 state and local employees -- including teachers -- per 10,000 residents, he said. This placed the Ocean State as the state with the seventh-lowest number of public employees in the country.

Wyoming had the most public employees per 10,000 -- 866. Nevada had the least -- 368 . The national average was 538."

I wouldn't have thought that myself.
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by Ramulous »

Lies, damn lies, and statistics.....
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by Captainron@ »

ATPTourFan wrote:I have no problem with the truck tolls. Convince me why I should be concerned. I am more concerned that doing nothing will not fix the backlog of bridge maintenance which will only get more expensive as the work is delayed.
You should be concerned because they are already spending the money before they have any idea how much they are bringing in. Tolls in Rhode Island will be easy to avoid, revenues will not match predictions and then what do they do? Um, we are sorry we said no tolls on cars, but look at this budget hole... We have no choice... This is why you should be concerned.
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by ATPTourFan »

Yeah, if by already spending the money you mean using matching Federal funds (RI is tied for the state with largest reliance on Federal assistance for road maintenance) and floating bonds. Of course, because nothing was happening and the taxpayer cost to repair these bridges is going to be much higher if they continue to defer the work.

Please explain to me how the big rigs (tractor trailers are the only class of vehicle set to pay any tolls) are going to avoid paying. Have you seen the proposed toll locations?

The law specifically prevents any tolls on passenger vehicles.

I'm still waiting for some kind of fact-based argument to be presented that's not based on fear and assumptions or misinformation.
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by OBRAM »

Lots of Info out in Repec.org
I don't think we rank to well.
http://www.ripec.org/pdfs/2014-HRIC-Rev.pdf
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by theblueram »

Robert Fellner: Boom times for R.I. local public employees
By Robert Fellner

Posted Jan. 29, 2016 at 2:01 AM

"Rhode Island’s private-sector workers saw their median earnings fall nearly 4 percent in inflation-adjusted dollars to $44,646, the largest percentage decline of any New England state. Rhode Island’s local government workers, however, saw their median earnings increase over 10 percent to a national-high $65,506 — the largest percentage gain nationwide."

Yeah, I can use statistics as well. This state is run by crooks.
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by theblueram »

ATPTourFan wrote:Yeah, if by already spending the money you mean using matching Federal funds (RI is tied for the state with largest reliance on Federal assistance for road maintenance) and floating bonds. Of course, because nothing was happening and the taxpayer cost to repair these bridges is going to be much higher if they continue to defer the work.

Please explain to me how the big rigs (tractor trailers are the only class of vehicle set to pay any tolls) are going to avoid paying. Have you seen the proposed toll locations?

The law specifically prevents any tolls on passenger vehicles.

I'm still waiting for some kind of fact-based argument to be presented that's not based on fear and assumptions or misinformation.
ATP, that "law" is not constitutional. It was not passed by a vote of the citizens of this state. That "law" can be changed at the will of the GA. That "law" is in fact laughable. The GA can change that law to included everyone with an internal vote. Which will happen if nothing is done to get these idiots out of office.
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by theblueram »

BleedBlue87 wrote:Just want to point out a few misconceptions here. Rhode Island is well below the average for public employee payrolls. We are the lowest in New England and I believe we are the second lowest, per capita, in the entire country. So to say there is some bloated government workforce is not true. Secondly, there has never been enough money to keep up with road and bridge maintenance. Our great state has one of the most extreme freeze/thaw cycles of anywhere in the country which makes it extremely difficult to keep up on road repairs. We also have an idiotic policy of wanting the snow on the roads cleared to the black pavement which causes additional damage. Third, there is little evidence to show that consolidation saves any money. Fourth, companies don't come here not because of the tax regime but because of the high energy costs, ridiculous regulations, and the fact that we have no competitive advantages to speak of at the moment. Somewhere we could look to fix is our building codes. Right now it costs just as much to build a residential complex in Providence as it does in Boston but you end up with half the rent. It makes no sense. So stuff like mandatory parking spaces, lot sizes, etc should all be looked at.
Just a couple comments. The gas tax was designed to repair roads. We don't repair roads here in little ol' Rhody. Where does it go? The lottery and gambling facilities were supposed to fund education. URI went from 30%-40% state funded to 8%. Where is that money going? Also, what, snow and ice freeze differently in East Providence compared to Seekonk?????

and see my post above about salaries. You really spin the shit well.
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by ramster »

theblueram wrote:
BleedBlue87 wrote:Just want to point out a few misconceptions here. Rhode Island is well below the average for public employee payrolls. We are the lowest in New England and I believe we are the second lowest, per capita, in the entire country. So to say there is some bloated government workforce is not true. Secondly, there has never been enough money to keep up with road and bridge maintenance. Our great state has one of the most extreme freeze/thaw cycles of anywhere in the country which makes it extremely difficult to keep up on road repairs. We also have an idiotic policy of wanting the snow on the roads cleared to the black pavement which causes additional damage. Third, there is little evidence to show that consolidation saves any money. Fourth, companies don't come here not because of the tax regime but because of the high energy costs, ridiculous regulations, and the fact that we have no competitive advantages to speak of at the moment. Somewhere we could look to fix is our building codes. Right now it costs just as much to build a residential complex in Providence as it does in Boston but you end up with half the rent. It makes no sense. So stuff like mandatory parking spaces, lot sizes, etc should all be looked at.
Just a couple comments. The gas tax was designed to repair roads. We don't repair roads here in little ol' Rhody. Where does it go? The lottery and gambling facilities were supposed to fund education. URI went from 30%-40% state funded to 8%. Where is that money going? Also, what, snow and ice freeze differently in East Providence compared to Seekonk?????

and see my post above about salaries. You really spin the shit well.
Exactly my point.
If you really think that the Toll Money will fix the bridges then Dan in Arizona has some Oceanfront Property for Sale just for you
Rhode Island has a spending problem, not a tax revenue problem
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by theblueram »

Step one is happening now. They are putting up the gantries from the Sakonnet Bridge on 95. They are doing this to invoke the lawsuit. Which they will lose. The ruling will be you can't just target one class of citizen for tolls. The judge will say either toll everyone or no one. Then the vote will happen to kill that "law" ATP was talking about. And everyone will be tolled. Mark my word. The only way out of this is to vote out all who voted for the tolls, and vote in those who will oppose it. Then they can do another vote and voila, no tolls.
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by ATPTourFan »

You can absolutely toll certain classes of vehicles at different rates as low as zero and as high as can be justified before the National Highway Administration. Are you serious? This is done everywhere.

There are exclusions and special cases implemented in just about every tolling situation. Whether it be discounted or waived tolls for locals, in-state, or by-axle tolling, there are different classes. Look no further than the Newport (yes, I still call it that) Bridge or the Mass Pike.

Toll everyone or no one? Why do you believe a judge would take that position?
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by theblueram »

I can see your point about different toll rates. But in this case, they are implementing just tolls on certain vehicles. They are not saying the toll is for everyone, but certain classes of vehicles are free at this time.
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by ramfan85 »

How long before we see an organization known as "All Trucks Matter"?
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by ATPTourFan »

theblueram wrote:I can see your point about different toll rates. But in this case, they are implementing just tolls on certain vehicles. They are not saying the toll is for everyone, but certain classes of vehicles are free at this time.
As is their right, since in our especially small state, we do not see the revenue via gas/diesel tax from the large commercial trucks that other states do. This is a big reason why DOT is operating from a disadvantage financially.
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by theblueram »

I believe I read/heard that the RIDOT budget is as big as Mass budget. I'm going to have to look for that now.
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by OBRAM »

Fed Gas tax is 18.4 cents, Diesel is 24.4
Mass Gas tax is 26.54 gas and diesel
RI gas tax is 34 cents gas and diesel
As a trucker, I would wait to fill up in MA, save the 10 cents a gallon.
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ramfan85 wrote:How long before we see an organization known as "All Trucks Matter"?
:lol: Solid response
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by TruePoint »

theblueram wrote:I can see your point about different toll rates. But in this case, they are implementing just tolls on certain vehicles. They are not saying the toll is for everyone, but certain classes of vehicles are free at this time.
Another way of saying that is that everyone is subject to the toll, just that some people's toll rate is $0. If the state is free to tax different vehicles at different rates (and they are), then it can tax some vehicles at $0.
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by theblueram »

TruePoint wrote:
theblueram wrote:I can see your point about different toll rates. But in this case, they are implementing just tolls on certain vehicles. They are not saying the toll is for everyone, but certain classes of vehicles are free at this time.
Another way of saying that is that everyone is subject to the toll, just that some people's toll rate is $0. If the state is free to tax different vehicles at different rates (and they are), then it can tax some vehicles at $0.
True if that is what they are saying. But it's not. They are saying they are only tolling trucks. If they are tolling everyone but cars are free, all they would have to do is increase the toll on cars the next budget cycle. That is where this is going.
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by Rhodymob05 »

TruePoint wrote:
theblueram wrote:I can see your point about different toll rates. But in this case, they are implementing just tolls on certain vehicles. They are not saying the toll is for everyone, but certain classes of vehicles are free at this time.
Another way of saying that is that everyone is subject to the toll, just that some people's toll rate is $0. If the state is free to tax different vehicles at different rates (and they are), then it can tax some vehicles at $0.
Correct me if I'm wrong, wouldn't having a toll on trucks be a commercial/industrial charge towards that trucks company, verses tolling a car where the money would come right out of that drivers pocket?
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by ATPTourFan »

OBRAM wrote:Fed Gas tax is 18.4 cents, Diesel is 24.4
Mass Gas tax is 26.54 gas and diesel
RI gas tax is 34 cents gas and diesel
As a trucker, I would wait to fill up in MA, save the 10 cents a gallon.
That is exactly what happens. Not only do truckers have to stop for gas less in RI (due to its small size), but they actively avoid buying gas here. Yet, their trucks continue to pound the roads/bridges and contribute the most to their deterioration.
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by ATPTourFan »

theblueram wrote:
TruePoint wrote:
theblueram wrote:I can see your point about different toll rates. But in this case, they are implementing just tolls on certain vehicles. They are not saying the toll is for everyone, but certain classes of vehicles are free at this time.
Another way of saying that is that everyone is subject to the toll, just that some people's toll rate is $0. If the state is free to tax different vehicles at different rates (and they are), then it can tax some vehicles at $0.
True if that is what they are saying. But it's not. They are saying they are only tolling trucks. If they are tolling everyone but cars are free, all they would have to do is increase the toll on cars the next budget cycle. That is where this is going.
In your opinion, correct? Or do you have something beyond that?

I agree that RI has a spending problem and I wish I could vote out just about everyone in the GA, but any rep/senator who votes for general tolling of passenger vehicles is committing career suicide.
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by TruePoint »

Rhodymob05 wrote:
TruePoint wrote:
theblueram wrote:I can see your point about different toll rates. But in this case, they are implementing just tolls on certain vehicles. They are not saying the toll is for everyone, but certain classes of vehicles are free at this time.
Another way of saying that is that everyone is subject to the toll, just that some people's toll rate is $0. If the state is free to tax different vehicles at different rates (and they are), then it can tax some vehicles at $0.
Correct me if I'm wrong, wouldn't having a toll on trucks be a commercial/industrial charge towards that trucks company, verses tolling a car where the money would come right out of that drivers pocket?
I don't really get your point, because I think you are drawing a distinction without a difference here. But I guess from a practical standpoint the burden of the toll for trucks would fall upon the shipper (and ultimately the end customer), but technically you can't really say that the toll would be the equivalent of a tax on commercial enterprises - if a guy drove up to a toll in a big rig he couldn't get out of paying the toll because he chose to drive the big rig as his personal vehicle. It is the vehicle being charged to use the road, not the underlying business.
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Re: Toll Gantries

Unread post by ATPTourFan »

Yeah, the tolls are against the vehicle traveling on the road. Truckers are saying that these toll fees will be passed down to the customers, since they will charge more to transport stuff and therefore the added cost will be passed along and eventually to the end-user.
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