Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
From the minutes of the RI Convention Center Authority Board of Commissioners May 29th Meeting:
Mr. McCarvill reported that for the month of April the Dunkin’ Donuts Center’s net income variance was (247,608) to budget and ($52,169) to the prior
year. Mr. McCarvill noted that year to date net income for the Dunkin’ Donuts Center was ($652,846) to budget and ($317,858) to the prior
year. Mr. McCarvill reported that decreased rent, food and beverage income, facility fees and suite income continue to affect the Dunk
budget. Mr. McCarvill reported that the Convention Center Authority’s net income variance for the month of April was $8,853 to
budget and $99,438 to the prior year. Year to date net income for the Authority was $214,435 to budget and $146,159 to the prior year. Mr.
McCarvill stated that consolidated net income variance for the month of April was ($373,921) to budget and ($156,234) to the prior year.
Year to date consolidated net income was ($866,813) to budget and ($194,847) to the prior year. Mr. McCarvill stated that the Authority’s
variance to the prior year is due to higher insurance payments in November. Mr. McCarvill stated that March was a fairly good month.
Mr. Gunn asked how we could turn this around. Mr. McCarvill said that we need more business at the Dunk and further cut expenses.
Link:
http://sos.ri.gov/documents/publicinfo/ ... /36335.pdf
Mr. McCarvill reported that for the month of April the Dunkin’ Donuts Center’s net income variance was (247,608) to budget and ($52,169) to the prior
year. Mr. McCarvill noted that year to date net income for the Dunkin’ Donuts Center was ($652,846) to budget and ($317,858) to the prior
year. Mr. McCarvill reported that decreased rent, food and beverage income, facility fees and suite income continue to affect the Dunk
budget. Mr. McCarvill reported that the Convention Center Authority’s net income variance for the month of April was $8,853 to
budget and $99,438 to the prior year. Year to date net income for the Authority was $214,435 to budget and $146,159 to the prior year. Mr.
McCarvill stated that consolidated net income variance for the month of April was ($373,921) to budget and ($156,234) to the prior year.
Year to date consolidated net income was ($866,813) to budget and ($194,847) to the prior year. Mr. McCarvill stated that the Authority’s
variance to the prior year is due to higher insurance payments in November. Mr. McCarvill stated that March was a fairly good month.
Mr. Gunn asked how we could turn this around. Mr. McCarvill said that we need more business at the Dunk and further cut expenses.
Link:
http://sos.ri.gov/documents/publicinfo/ ... /36335.pdf
0 x
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
The fact that the DDC struggles and fails to meet financial expectations should not be a surprise to anyone. While the Ryan Center has had its issues, they do not appear to be anywhere as bad. Given the RC was nearly half the cost of the DDC purchase and renovation, it actually probably comes out looking good in comparison.
0 x
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
RI State Government wants more money (6.5 million) for upcoming DDC capital projects
From the:
Capital Budget
Summary
The Governor’s five-year capital recommendations for FY 2014 through FY 2018
(pertinent part)
The request is $73.3 million more than the approved plan, primarily for the inclusion of funding for the Convention Center Authority and the $28.3 million of new general obligation bonds for the Water Facilities Assistance program.
The Governor recommended expenditures totaling $350.6 million, of which $145.5 million will be used in the five-year period for 39 projects. The recommendation is $24.3 million more than the approved plan, primarily for the inclusion of $4.5 million to purchase the land adjacent to the Veterans Memorial Auditorium, $6.5 million for the Dunkin Donuts Center and $5.5 million for the Rhode Island Convention Center.
Link:
http://webserver.rilin.state.ri.us/hous ... Budget.pdf
From the:
Capital Budget
Summary
The Governor’s five-year capital recommendations for FY 2014 through FY 2018
(pertinent part)
The request is $73.3 million more than the approved plan, primarily for the inclusion of funding for the Convention Center Authority and the $28.3 million of new general obligation bonds for the Water Facilities Assistance program.
The Governor recommended expenditures totaling $350.6 million, of which $145.5 million will be used in the five-year period for 39 projects. The recommendation is $24.3 million more than the approved plan, primarily for the inclusion of $4.5 million to purchase the land adjacent to the Veterans Memorial Auditorium, $6.5 million for the Dunkin Donuts Center and $5.5 million for the Rhode Island Convention Center.
Link:
http://webserver.rilin.state.ri.us/hous ... Budget.pdf
0 x
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
The DDC is the project that keeps on taking taxpayer money. It never ends.
0 x
- ATPTourFan
- Frank Keaney
- Posts: 12095
- Joined: 11 years ago
- Location: Wakefield, RI
- x 4791
- Contact:
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
Vomit
0 x
Support Coach Miller & Rhody Basketball! Give to the Athletic Director's Fund
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
If the arena is attracting the types of events that draw people into the city to spend money at restaurants and hotels, then it doesn't matter so much if it is operating in the black. I'm not in RI so I have no idea what kind of events the convention center and Dunk are getting, but that should be factored into the analysis.
As a general rule, I don't like the idea of city or state governments paying for arenas for professional teams that could afford to build their own facility. But Providence does not have a pro team to build an arena, so if you want Providence to be a destination for conferences, shows and other events that will attract people to the city, the arena is going to have to be propped up. It is easy to hate the building because PC plays there, and I agree they should be paying more rent, but even if they paid a fair rent it wouldn't do much to change the fact the building is going to operate at a loss.
As a general rule, I don't like the idea of city or state governments paying for arenas for professional teams that could afford to build their own facility. But Providence does not have a pro team to build an arena, so if you want Providence to be a destination for conferences, shows and other events that will attract people to the city, the arena is going to have to be propped up. It is easy to hate the building because PC plays there, and I agree they should be paying more rent, but even if they paid a fair rent it wouldn't do much to change the fact the building is going to operate at a loss.
0 x
"If you build it, they will come." --Us, circa 2011
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
My biggest problem with " the dump" is how the state just took over and gave what 90-100 million to buy and renovate the building but when we wanted the Ryan Center built it had to go to a November vote? Any ideas why?
0 x
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
I don't know the mechanics of that, but in terms of "why" I think it's clear that the Ryan and the Dunk serve very different purposes for the state.
0 x
"If you build it, they will come." --Us, circa 2011
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
My issue is not that the DDC needed an upgrade and that the state was involved. My problem has always been the way this was done and the cost to do so for taxpayers.
There was no public vote and little public discussion
Proposed by the RICC that's board was packed with PC supporters like Duffy and Gavitt
Rammed through the legislature by PC cronies such as fan and Senate President Montalbano
The near complete lack of private funding sources
The exorbitant cost bore by taxpayers to buy and renovate (near 100 million)
The cost overruns and quick granting of millions more to cover them
The great benefit to the main tenants P-Bruins and PC without them contributing (hit up their sponsors and supporters such as done at URI for the RC)
No significant apparent rent increases to help pay off debt
Lack of transparency and accountability whereby this project's costs were adequately justified and publicly monitored afterward
This project was fixed from the start and local media such as the Providence Journal were collaborators.
There was no public vote and little public discussion
Proposed by the RICC that's board was packed with PC supporters like Duffy and Gavitt
Rammed through the legislature by PC cronies such as fan and Senate President Montalbano
The near complete lack of private funding sources
The exorbitant cost bore by taxpayers to buy and renovate (near 100 million)
The cost overruns and quick granting of millions more to cover them
The great benefit to the main tenants P-Bruins and PC without them contributing (hit up their sponsors and supporters such as done at URI for the RC)
No significant apparent rent increases to help pay off debt
Lack of transparency and accountability whereby this project's costs were adequately justified and publicly monitored afterward
This project was fixed from the start and local media such as the Providence Journal were collaborators.
0 x
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
Ryan Center was a November vote?Rhodysk wrote:My biggest problem with " the dump" is how the state just took over and gave what 90-100 million to buy and renovate the building but when we wanted the Ryan Center built it had to go to a November vote? Any ideas why?
0 x
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
BFC wrote:Ryan Center was a November vote?Rhodysk wrote:My biggest problem with " the dump" is how the state just took over and gave what 90-100 million to buy and renovate the building but when we wanted the Ryan Center built it had to go to a November vote? Any ideas why?
The Ryan Center did not go to a citizen vote. The legislature and governor approved it. It however was not fully paid for by the state. The three sources of revenue were approximately 1/3 to be raised by URI through donors and sponsors, 1/3 via a state bond to be paid back by URI (arena revenues and student fees), and 1/3 outright contribution by the state.
The DDC purchase and renovation (near 100million) as well as the McCoy Stadium renovation were not put to a general citizen vote.
The SADC and Meade Stadium renovations at URI were put before voters via a referendum and lost.
As I have stated before, I don't understand the rationale for what needs a vote. It seems that things are not even consistent in RI (see above). I live in MA and new buildings at state universities are not put on the ballot. I don't think they are in CT either.
0 x
-
- Carlton Owens
- Posts: 3108
- Joined: 11 years ago
- x 8
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
There is no "rationale." This is Rhode Island. The thinking has always been: Anyway to stick it URI, the better. Watch what happens to the Engineering School Bond.
0 x
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
bressler3south wrote:There is no "rationale." This is Rhode Island. The thinking has always been:
Anyway to stick it URI, the better. Watch what happens to the Engineering School Bond.
I have stated many times here how infuriating I find the state's treatment of URI, so I'm definitely not going to make excuses for the state government here. But I think the issues URI has had vis a vis the state are more ones of neglect than active malice. I don't think that the state dumps money into the Dunk to "screw" URI, it's just that the sweetheart deal that PC gets on it's rent that ends up being subsidized by the state is illustrative of how the people in state government treat a private school with preferred status while neglecting the flagship state university charged with educating the state's future workforce.
As an aside, I expect the engineering bond question to pass, probably overwhelmingly. You can't find a serious person anywhere that has come out against it. All constituencies in the state are supporting it. One thing you can say about Rhode Islanders: they may not be very bright but they certainly vote how they're told. In this case at least they are being told to vote in a way that isn't infuriatingly stupid.
0 x
"If you build it, they will come." --Us, circa 2011
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
There is a rationale. Revenue bonds do not require voter approval because they are supposed to be paid off with the revenue generated by that particular state agency. Ryan Center revenues were supposed to pay of its debt (it hasn't generated enough revenue so student fees were raised), Dunk revenues are supposed to pay its debt, room and board revenues are supposed to pay for the apartment style housing that URI has done and is proposing again. Water and Transportation Authorities also frequently issue revenue bonds.
General Obligation Bonds are to be paid by tax revenue which in RI requires voter approval.
General Obligation Bonds are to be paid by tax revenue which in RI requires voter approval.
0 x
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
In my opinion any facility, business, agency, etc, that struggles to support itself after being established for as long as the Dunk has been established is clearly doing something incorrectly. I still remember to this day how one of the guys working on the Dunk's renovation called in to 94 HJY to let everyone know that part of the delay in the renovation being completed or slow to be completed was due to an electrician from MA they had nicknamed "The Rabbit" who did a crap job. One can only imagine how people are hired..."Hey, I know a guy...who knows a guy." The buddy system works for swimming, but isn't always great for construction.
0 x
"Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds!" - Marcus Garvey
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
Public libraries don't support themselves. Neither do VA hospitals or public transportation operations. Should they be shuttered? That isn't the right way to assess a facility that serves a public purpose.
0 x
"If you build it, they will come." --Us, circa 2011
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
Publicly owned entertainment venues lose money everywhere, if they didn't, they wouldn't have to be publicly owned.
0 x
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
BFC wrote:There is a rationale. Revenue bonds do not require voter approval because they are supposed to be paid off with the revenue generated by that particular state agency. Ryan Center revenues were supposed to pay of its debt (it hasn't generated enough revenue so student fees were raised), Dunk revenues are supposed to pay its debt, room and board revenues are supposed to pay for the apartment style housing that URI has done and is proposing again. Water and Transportation Authorities also frequently issue revenue bonds.
General Obligation Bonds are to be paid by tax revenue which in RI requires voter approval.
The Dunkin Donuts Center was never expected to be able to pay off its bonds on its own. It was hoped that its revenues would help pay SOME of its bond obligations but not all. Given the venue is not meeting expectations, the state is probably having to come up with even more funding (than was originally anticipated) to meet bond obligations.
0 x
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
It was still a revenue bond (like the Ryan Center), which means it was issued by the Convention Center Authority and its payments have to be made out of the Convention Center Authority's budget. I agree its murky since tax revenue subsidizes the Dunk and therefore the payments but I don't think any of us want URI to have to issue and pay its own bonds given the current level of state support.RF1 wrote:BFC wrote:There is a rationale. Revenue bonds do not require voter approval because they are supposed to be paid off with the revenue generated by that particular state agency. Ryan Center revenues were supposed to pay of its debt (it hasn't generated enough revenue so student fees were raised), Dunk revenues are supposed to pay its debt, room and board revenues are supposed to pay for the apartment style housing that URI has done and is proposing again. Water and Transportation Authorities also frequently issue revenue bonds.
General Obligation Bonds are to be paid by tax revenue which in RI requires voter approval.
The Dunkin Donuts Center was never expected to be able to pay off its bonds on its own. It was hoped that its revenues would help pay SOME of its bond obligations but not all. Given the venue is not meeting expectations, the state is probably having to come up with even more funding (than was originally anticipated) to meet bond obligations.
0 x
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
To me it looks ike state officials make up the rules as they go and are not consistent. Some projects get tabbed as revenue bonds while similar projects are gneral obligation. The 11million dollars to renovate McCoy Stadium came from Economic Development Revenue bonds. My guess is this project was never specifically listed in the bond proposal. Additionally, I am not aware of any agreement whereby the PawSox or City of Pawtucket (owner of McCoy Stadium) are paying off these bonds. In fact, Governor Chaffe is asking for more money for capital exependitures at the facility (see below).
It appears that state officials make projects happen when they REALLY want them. They merely change the designation and how it is paid and avoid public votes. It is all a matter of semantics that changes with the wind.
http://webserver.rilin.state.ri.us/Sena ... 0FINAL.pdf
McCoy Stadium
The Department requests $1.2 million in RICAP funding for renovation work at McCoy Stadium in
Pawtucket. Although the facility is owned by the City of Pawtucket, the State first assisted the City with
$11.0 million in stadium renovations during FY1998 and FY1999 in order for the facility to meet minor
league baseball standards. Funding for the renovations was derived from Economic Development
Revenue Bonds. In return, the owner of the Pawtucket Red Sox signed a lease to keep the team in Rhode
Island. The current lease has been extended to January 31, 2021, with a 5-year optional extension.
Several outstanding projects were not completed or addressed during the stadium renovation. This
included parking area coating, roof repairs, weatherproofing, elevator and HVAC upgrades. The State
spent $12.9 million on these additional renovations. The project is over ten years old and as the facility
continues to age (built in 1942) additional attention will be required to maintain the condition of the
10,000 seat facility up to minor league baseball standards. Additional projects identified include
resurfacing walkways and seating areas, expansion joint repairs and seating.
Total requested funding is $1.2 million with $200,000 in FY2016, and $1.0 million divided between
FY2017 and FY2018. This project is in the enacted capital plan.
The Governor recommends total funding of $1.3 million with $50,000 for FY2015 and $1.2 million for
FY2019.
It appears that state officials make projects happen when they REALLY want them. They merely change the designation and how it is paid and avoid public votes. It is all a matter of semantics that changes with the wind.
http://webserver.rilin.state.ri.us/Sena ... 0FINAL.pdf
McCoy Stadium
The Department requests $1.2 million in RICAP funding for renovation work at McCoy Stadium in
Pawtucket. Although the facility is owned by the City of Pawtucket, the State first assisted the City with
$11.0 million in stadium renovations during FY1998 and FY1999 in order for the facility to meet minor
league baseball standards. Funding for the renovations was derived from Economic Development
Revenue Bonds. In return, the owner of the Pawtucket Red Sox signed a lease to keep the team in Rhode
Island. The current lease has been extended to January 31, 2021, with a 5-year optional extension.
Several outstanding projects were not completed or addressed during the stadium renovation. This
included parking area coating, roof repairs, weatherproofing, elevator and HVAC upgrades. The State
spent $12.9 million on these additional renovations. The project is over ten years old and as the facility
continues to age (built in 1942) additional attention will be required to maintain the condition of the
10,000 seat facility up to minor league baseball standards. Additional projects identified include
resurfacing walkways and seating areas, expansion joint repairs and seating.
Total requested funding is $1.2 million with $200,000 in FY2016, and $1.0 million divided between
FY2017 and FY2018. This project is in the enacted capital plan.
The Governor recommends total funding of $1.3 million with $50,000 for FY2015 and $1.2 million for
FY2019.
Last edited by RF1 9 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
0 x
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
Obviously the state does stupid shit, 38 Studios was an EDC revenue bond. But revenue bonds also allowed URI to build the Ryan Center and some new apartment-style housing. It would also be used for that proposed hotel. I definitely don't see the benefit to URI to build the Engineering Building with a revenue bond just to avoid a public vote.
0 x
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
I think this is operational cost, not the cost to pay the $120Million in Bonds. What is disturbing is that the main Dunk tenant PC pays only about $16,000 a game for rent , and they have their own locker room. If you wanted to rent space in the Prov Place Mall it would cost more that what PC pays.RF1 wrote:From the minutes of the RI Convention Center Authority Board of Commissioners May 29th Meeting:
Mr. McCarvill reported that for the month of April the Dunkin’ Donuts Center’s net income variance was (247,608) to budget and ($52,169) to the prior
year. Mr. McCarvill noted that year to date net income for the Dunkin’ Donuts Center was ($652,846) to budget and ($317,858) to the prior
year. Mr. McCarvill reported that decreased rent, food and beverage income, facility fees and suite income continue to affect the Dunk
budget. Mr. McCarvill reported that the Convention Center Authority’s net income variance for the month of April was $8,853 to
budget and $99,438 to the prior year. Year to date net income for the Authority was $214,435 to budget and $146,159 to the prior year. Mr.
McCarvill stated that consolidated net income variance for the month of April was ($373,921) to budget and ($156,234) to the prior year.
Year to date consolidated net income was ($866,813) to budget and ($194,847) to the prior year. Mr. McCarvill stated that the Authority’s
variance to the prior year is due to higher insurance payments in November. Mr. McCarvill stated that March was a fairly good month.
Mr. Gunn asked how we could turn this around. Mr. McCarvill said that we need more business at the Dunk and further cut expenses.
Link:
http://sos.ri.gov/documents/publicinfo/ ... /36335.pdf
0 x
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
Yes, but the Dunk was a City owned facility, and why the State should get involved because of mismanagement from the City of Prov, in a facility for Providence. The Carrier Dome was a State project to help Central NY, but I think most arena's like this are City financed, unless they are a huge project like a billion dollar football stadium.TruePoint wrote:Public libraries don't support themselves. Neither do VA hospitals or public transportation operations. Should they be shuttered? That isn't the right way to assess a facility that serves a public purpose.
0 x
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
At least the Dunk was able to lure Fleetwood Mac to town
0 x
Like soldiers on a Winter's night with a vow to DEFEND, no retreat baby, no surrender.
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
OBRAM wrote:I think this is operational cost, not the cost to pay the $120Million in Bonds. What is disturbing is that the main Dunk tenant PC pays only about $16,000 a game for rent , and they have their own locker room. If you wanted to rent space in the Prov Place Mall it would cost more that what PC pays.
The RICC Authority meeting minutes regarding the DDC do relate to operations (reveneus less expenses). Monies from operations however are supposed to help partially pay off the debt for the purchase and renovation. A state subsidy pays the rest. If the DDC is not even meeting budget projections, I must assume its ability to help pay down the debt is affected. If that is the case, the state would have to contribute even more.
As for the rent, I am not certain what either the P-Bruins or Friars pay. I seem to recall that URI and PC paid in the neighborhood of 30-35k over a decade ago. I doubt PC plays half of that now (16k you referenced). It is too bad that this information never seems to make it out into the public. My guess would be that PC pays about the same (maybe a slight increase due to inflation) that it did before the renovations. The big problem with that however is the facility is not the same. It is much more desirable than before (with 70+ million in upgrades) and the rent it charges should have accounted for that. My understanding is that it did not and that burns me. It is especially appalling when PC highlights the DDC renovations in its promotions to raise revenue via the sale of seat licenses that it entirely keeps. PC bore none of the cost and actually uses the largess of taxpayers to make more money for itself. It is disgusting that RI officials let them get away with it.
0 x
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
PC added the seat licensing to keep up with the times. Every team in a power conference except PC had them when they were implemented. I don't know the economics of what PC pays before vs. after; but I do know that at the time PC bargained from a position of strength. The DDC was falling apart and PC had an opportunity to explore an on-campus arena option (far-fetched; but a death knell to the DDC and a hit to downtown if it happened) both of which I would assume led to PC gaining some perks with the renovation process. Did PC benefit? No doubt. But you can't blame a tenant b/c the landlord runs a crappy businessman
0 x
Warning: area protected by guard donkey
- ATPTourFan
- Frank Keaney
- Posts: 12095
- Joined: 11 years ago
- Location: Wakefield, RI
- x 4791
- Contact:
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
Three words: Conflict of Interest
How can taxpayers expect to have PC pay a fair rent when the Convention Center Authority is comprised of season tix holders and PC alumni?
How can taxpayers expect to have PC pay a fair rent when the Convention Center Authority is comprised of season tix holders and PC alumni?
0 x
Support Coach Miller & Rhody Basketball! Give to the Athletic Director's Fund
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
What school was the governor alumni of during the construction of the RC? The reality is; in a state as small as RI, it is virtually impossible to operate a large project without some bias.
0 x
Warning: area protected by guard donkey
- ATPTourFan
- Frank Keaney
- Posts: 12095
- Joined: 11 years ago
- Location: Wakefield, RI
- x 4791
- Contact:
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
Right, and the State's flagship university and it's 50yr old basketball gym didn't need to be replaced. You are right, because with all the PC alumni at the state house, it probably wouldn't have been done despite the obvious need.
As it was, it was done in a fiscally sensitive way compared to other projects.
As it was, it was done in a fiscally sensitive way compared to other projects.
0 x
Support Coach Miller & Rhody Basketball! Give to the Athletic Director's Fund
- RhowdyRam02
- Frank Keaney
- Posts: 10355
- Joined: 11 years ago
- x 6622
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
Also, the Ryan Center was funded in good economic times, the Dunkin Donuts Center project was funded during a terrible recession.
0 x
Take down the Robert Carothers banner and fix the concession stand lines
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
ATP,
I'm not arguing the necessity of the RC; it was long overdue. But you can't ignore the fact that RI govt is littered with URI grads as well. Just as the renovations to the DDC were. It was built in the early 70's and without the renovations; it wouldn't be able to host a lot of the events it does now(NCAA hockey/bball postseason). It was also in danger of losing it's top two tenants; which would have turned downtown into a ghost town.
I'm not arguing the necessity of the RC; it was long overdue. But you can't ignore the fact that RI govt is littered with URI grads as well. Just as the renovations to the DDC were. It was built in the early 70's and without the renovations; it wouldn't be able to host a lot of the events it does now(NCAA hockey/bball postseason). It was also in danger of losing it's top two tenants; which would have turned downtown into a ghost town.
0 x
Warning: area protected by guard donkey
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
There are two different arguments here: whether the state should prop up the Dunk, and whether PC pays too little rent. They both have political connotations, but they aren't the same question. You may or may not buy the argument that an owning an arena that loses money but is capable of hosting events that attract people to a city is a worthwhile cost for a government. I think it is inarguable, though, that elected officials arranging for favorable rent arrangements for a private college (if that is indeed what has happened) at the expense of the taxpayers is wrong, and it should be scandalous.
0 x
"If you build it, they will come." --Us, circa 2011
-
- Frank Keaney
- Posts: 10499
- Joined: 11 years ago
- x 7614
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
TP I agree. But what in gods name is this inept state govt doing being involved in private business? They can't run water though a hose. If the DDC loses money why would the taxpayers have to prop it up? The teams who play there, the bands who play there and the shows who play there I can guarantee make money. Yet we have to pay taxes for it? Makes no sense at all.TruePoint wrote:There are two different arguments here: whether the state should prop up the Dunk, and whether PC pays too little rent. They both have political connotations, but they aren't the same question. You may or may not buy the argument that an owning an arena that loses money but is capable of hosting events that attract people to a city is a worthwhile cost for a government. I think it is inarguable, though, that elected officials arranging for favorable rent arrangements for a private college (if that is indeed what has happened) at the expense of the taxpayers is wrong, and it should be scandalous.
0 x
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
I think the reason why a building like that would be publicly owned is precisely because it realistically cannot make money. The idea is for it to be a loss leader for the city and state by attracting people into the city and into its restaurants, bars and hotels. It is basically a subsidy for those industries. Again, you can support that or suppose it, but that is a philosophical question.
(Personally, I think it is worth it, because even if you don't own or work at a bar, restaurant or hotel, the quality of life in a "live" city is much better than in a "dead" city, which in turn raises property values, etc., and those service sector employees spend money and pay taxes - its all interconnected, and bringing money into the city is always a good thing. But that is a ideological road we don't really need to go down here, I just wanted to point out the argument for taxpayers "propping up" a venue like the Dunk.)
(Personally, I think it is worth it, because even if you don't own or work at a bar, restaurant or hotel, the quality of life in a "live" city is much better than in a "dead" city, which in turn raises property values, etc., and those service sector employees spend money and pay taxes - its all interconnected, and bringing money into the city is always a good thing. But that is a ideological road we don't really need to go down here, I just wanted to point out the argument for taxpayers "propping up" a venue like the Dunk.)
0 x
"If you build it, they will come." --Us, circa 2011
- Seawrightspostgame
- Sly Williams
- Posts: 4140
- Joined: 11 years ago
- x 1563
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
So instead of taxpayers supporting the public school, they support the private school?
0 x
I want to change my name to BlockIslandFerry
-
- Frank Keaney
- Posts: 10499
- Joined: 11 years ago
- x 7614
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
I don't view the civic center as a public place. It is a place that provides entertainment. Should taxpayer dollars be used to support strip clubs? And why not? They bring people into the city to spend money. The arguments being bandied about in support of state funding for this place can be applied to any business in the city. The problem is there is so much welfare being passed around, everyone feels entitled to it.
0 x
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
Yeah, that is the libertarian perspective and I get it, I just don't share it.
SWPG, I don't know what you mean, really, but it is clearly wrong for PC to be getting any kind of a special deal with a building that is propped up by the state. That is a separate issue than whether the building should be subsidized by the state.
SWPG, I don't know what you mean, really, but it is clearly wrong for PC to be getting any kind of a special deal with a building that is propped up by the state. That is a separate issue than whether the building should be subsidized by the state.
0 x
"If you build it, they will come." --Us, circa 2011
-
- Frank Keaney
- Posts: 10499
- Joined: 11 years ago
- x 7614
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
Hah. Libertarian perspective? No, just your run of the mill conservative republican. I don't buy government spending except for military spending. I like to spend the rest of my money on things that make sense.
0 x
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
OK we can have a political conversation somewhere else, but there is a theory of government that thinks more communally. It may not be your choice, but that is what elections are for. It is a perfectly valid way for a government to act. What isn't valid is government officials using power and influence to benefit a private institution because of personal bias at the expense of taxpayers.theblueram wrote:Hah. Libertarian perspective? No, just your run of the mill conservative republican. I don't buy government spending except for military spending. I like to spend the rest of my money on things that make sense.
0 x
"If you build it, they will come." --Us, circa 2011
-
- Frank Keaney
- Posts: 10499
- Joined: 11 years ago
- x 7614
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
TP, just make up your mind on this. Should govt be involved in a private business? Which the DCC is most certainly is.
0 x
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
Yes, definitely. I don't know how I could be any clearer on this. I have been saying the same thing the whole thread. In my opinion it is a net positive to have a facility like the Dunk in a city like Providence. The only way a city of Providence's size can have a facility like that is for it to be subsidized, but it adds value to the community both civically and economically. What I strongly disagree with is PC (or the P-Bruins or any other user of the facility, although I think the problem is unique to PC) getting to use the facility at a below-market rate which ultimately the taxpayers have to cover.
So to summarize, I think to the extent it is necessary the building should be subsidized, but the building should be covering every cent of its own costs that it reasonably can and shouldn't be giving stuff away to PC or anyone else because of politics, since those giveaways have to be paid for by the people of RI.
So to summarize, I think to the extent it is necessary the building should be subsidized, but the building should be covering every cent of its own costs that it reasonably can and shouldn't be giving stuff away to PC or anyone else because of politics, since those giveaways have to be paid for by the people of RI.
0 x
"If you build it, they will come." --Us, circa 2011
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
Most arenas in cities that don't have pro sports teams are publicly owned, even in red states. Portraying this as some kind of "only in RI" thing is inaccurate.
0 x
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
BFC wrote:Most arenas in cities that don't have pro sports teams are publicly owned, even in red states. Portraying this as some kind of "only in RI" thing is inaccurate.
Most other states don't then put payment for academic buildings at its flagship state university on the ballot either.
0 x
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
Nobody is arguing that the state of Rhode Island is doing everything right. You'd have a hard time finding anyone more critical of the way the state is run than I am. But conflating these two issues is a mistake. If you want to spend energy fixing the situation, that energy is best spent arguing that URI needs better state support rather than getting sidetracked by the state's relationship with Civic Center just because our basketball rival plays there. (Just to reiterate, if PC is paying below-market rent because of political cronyism that is scandalous, but again that is a separate issue from whether the Dunk should exist and therefore requires state subsidies.)
0 x
"If you build it, they will come." --Us, circa 2011
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
Lets just say everything the RI General Assembly does is tainted by insider politics and the support level for URI is short-sighted, flawed and downright stupid. I'm fine with that, I agree with it. I just think the reality is absurd enough, we don't have to stretch things out to make our point. Public ownership of entertainment venues is not unique, it might be done better other places but subsidies are still needed.RF1 wrote:BFC wrote:Most arenas in cities that don't have pro sports teams are publicly owned, even in red states. Portraying this as some kind of "only in RI" thing is inaccurate.
Most other states don't then put payment for academic buildings at its flagship state university on the ballot either.
0 x
- RhowdyRam02
- Frank Keaney
- Posts: 10355
- Joined: 11 years ago
- x 6622
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
0 x
Take down the Robert Carothers banner and fix the concession stand lines
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
If I put a pack of chewing gum on my expense report I would be shown the door. Government in action - Rhode Island Government. I hope the new Mayor and the new Governor jump on this kind of stuff.
I like the comparison to Connecticut where they have zero travel budget - why then does RI need to travel.
Nice car allowances too and free parking.
A new Mayor and a new Governor for the State of Rhode Island have almost unlimited opportunities in front of them to improve things - they could really make National names for themselves - there is so much upside potential.
I like the comparison to Connecticut where they have zero travel budget - why then does RI need to travel.
Nice car allowances too and free parking.
A new Mayor and a new Governor for the State of Rhode Island have almost unlimited opportunities in front of them to improve things - they could really make National names for themselves - there is so much upside potential.
0 x
-
- Frank Keaney
- Posts: 10499
- Joined: 11 years ago
- x 7614
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
But, but, but.....Juicy Fruit brings in business and is a loss leader. Absolutely inept state govt run entity. But hey, the state just elected another full slate of Democrats so things will be all nice and comfy going forward. Although, the federal teet has just been ripped from the lips of this pig, errr , I mean this Democrat state. Hope it doesn't hurt URI too much. I'll try and post a video of Reed and Langevin moving out of their offices if I can find one.
0 x
Re: Dunkin Donuts Center continues to struggle
About time that someone looked into the finances for this entity (RICC). It bled money on its own and that was not enough. It then purchased the DDC for some 30 million and dumped 70 million into renovations for a facility that could not pay for such a venture. That was still not enough as it then added the Veternas Memorial Ausitorium to its management and spent millions more on renovations. While this is a quasi state agency, it is being heavily susbsidized by RI taxpayers and has ahd very little accountability or oversight
By the way, I think it is not a coincidence that WJAR never did a piece like this when lawbreaker Jim Taricani was still on staff due to his wife Laurie White's position. He of course had no issue doing a hatchet job on URI and its head basketball coach with regard to his salary (which ultimately RI taxpayers paid very little toward).
0 x