OT: Welker to Broncos

Billyboy78 · Unread post by **Billyboy78** » 11 years ago

It's official...didn't know where to put this, but i thought it was big news....I hope that Pats have a plan to spend all that extra cap money somewhere else now, or the shit is gonna fly in Pats Nation.

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 11 years ago

How do you replace the greatest slot reciever in history?
Same team that passed on Clay Matthews in the draft.
I wish Belichick would let the Pats hire a real GM, and stick to coaching.

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 11 years ago

Welker, 2 year contract with the Broncos. Ugh!

STC · Unread post by **STC** » 11 years ago

Ugh so frustrating as a Pats fan. 2 years 12 million is hardly breaking the bank. Belichick's ego is getting in the way of common sense.

Matunuck · Unread post by **Matunuck** » 11 years ago

Welker out, Amendola in!

Matunuck · Unread post by **Matunuck** » 11 years ago

You will love Amendola. Young, tough, and great route runner with big play ability. I wish he would learn to duck some hits. His tough guy attitude gets him beat up some. Now lets sign some help on the other side of the ball. How about a good cornerback and a big hitting safety?

Matunuck · Unread post by **Matunuck** » 11 years ago

I can handle Thorr, we will get a qualified replacement. We have Amendola to replace Welker. Please do not give me any news about the third good man leaving. We will not get as good of a replacement for him!

Billyboy78 · Unread post by **Billyboy78** » 11 years ago

Hurley Show wrote:You will love Amendola. Young, tough, and great route runner with big play ability. I wish he would learn to duck some hits. His tough guy attitude gets him beat up some. Now lets sign some help on the other side of the ball. How about a good cornerback and a big hitting safety?

How would you feel about Pollard being on this team?

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 11 years ago

They need some toughness on defense. I've for any Rodney Harrison
type, additions.

ramfan85 · Unread post by **ramfan85** » 11 years ago

Hurley Show wrote:I can handle Thorr, we will get a qualified replacement. We have Amendola to replace Welker. Please do not give me any news about the third good man leaving. We will not get as good of a replacement for him!

Now we have 3 receivers who can't play a complete season.

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 11 years ago

I love how everyone - even your average fan - knows so much better than Belichick, yet somehow not even other NFL coaches can replicate the consistent success he's had in New England.

twisted3829 · Unread post by **twisted3829** » 11 years ago

The pats have dragged Welker along the last few years refusing to give him a big contract and franchised him last year, then pretty much benched him to show him we don't need you. I loved that the pats lost 2 out of 3 and as soon as Welker played the pats started winning immediately.

Note: I am not a Patriots fan

reef · Unread post by **reef** » 11 years ago

Broncos are loaded at receiver

Andrew · Unread post by **Andrew** » 11 years ago

We saw what happened last year when they tried to replace Welker with Edelman, and it didn't work out quite as well. Amendola's a good player, but he's constantly hurt. He's missed 20 games over the last 2 seasons. If he can stay healthy (obviously, a huge IF), then the swap makes sense. We still need to go and get another WR, especially if Lloyd won't be under contract. I say we go get Cruz - a first round pick isn't much, especially when we know Belichick won't use it anyway.

Plenty of needs on the other side of the ball, and it really seems like Welker felt disrespected by the lack of flexibility between last year (he was given the franchise tag) and this year. We'll see how it shakes out, but this is a much riskier move than letting Lawyer Milloy or Adam Vinatieri go...

Rhodyhooopz · Unread post by **Rhodyhooopz** » 11 years ago

Hurley Show wrote:You will love Amendola. Young, tough, and great route runner with big play ability. I wish he would learn to duck some hits. His tough guy attitude gets him beat up some. Now lets sign some help on the other side of the ball. How about a good cornerback and a big hitting safety?

Word is Amendola broke his forearm getting out of the cab. Tough? This guy is always hurt

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 11 years ago

Sorry TP, but the "In Bill We Trust" , went by the boards with some of the
playoff failures, and losing two Superbowls to the Giants.
They blow throught the regular season, but since 2007 they are
3-4 in playoffs, including two one and dones.
Belichick's drafting of 8 million failed cornerbacks has become a joke.

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 11 years ago

Even since their last Super Bowl, the Patriots have won more regular season games, more divisions and more playoff games than any other NFL teams. No team has been to more Super Bowls. So they lost two nail-biters to the Giants that turned on crazy plays, and that proves Belichick doesn't know what he's doing?

This is the way that the Patriots operate. They have a philosophy that says they'll part with a player a year too early rather than a year too late. It amazes me that after a decade of operating this way that fans still get bent out of shape when their favoritest pwayer leaves the team. People want to invent all these crazy motives for why Bill has rendered their replica jersey obsolete, but it really just comes down to a sober cost/benefit analysis. Amendola is basically the exact same player at basically the exact same career stage as Welker was when the Patriots acquired him 2007. Maybe slightly better. For the same annual value, they got a younger version of the player they let walk, and they control him for an additional three years of his prime.

And the angle about Amendola being injury prone is a bit lazy. The guy has had one serious fluke injury and one unrelated, less serious injury. It isn't a chronic injury that keeps happening over and over again like some athletes with legit injury issues have. The main difference between Welker's ACL and Amendola's elbow injury is that Welker's happened during the last game of the year and Amendola's happened in week 1.

I don't necessarily love this move. I liked Welker and I'm not 100% sold on Amendola. But I can plainly see why the move was made and I think it should be obvious to anyone who wants to put emotions aside and look at it from the Patriots' perspective.

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 11 years ago

Injury prone athletes are injury prone athletes, regardless of the variance of injuries.
Jacoby Ellsbury, exhibit one.
I don't have any jerseys, so I could care less about that stuff.
Belichick has proven he can't draft or sign the Pat's most dire need, defensive backs, year after year, after year.
It's like Theo Epstein and shortstops.
Of course, Clay Matthews couldn't cover the run, so Belichick passed on him. Yeah, right.
When was the last time this team had a decent pass rush.
You see Belichick as God, I see him as someone whose peak time has passed.

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 11 years ago

I don't see him as God, but he is unquestionably the best football mind of this generation. You point out his relatively few personnel miscues (as if every GM in the league doesn't have their fair share), and ignore the fact that his personnel track record of identifying talent has been the foundation of consistently top-tier teams. Brady, Solder, Mankins, Vollmer, Gronkowski, Hernandez and Ridley are all Patriot draft picks, and nearly every one of them was questioned at the time. Except Brady - nobody even paid attention to him. Wilfork, Jones, Mayo, Spikes and Hightower were all good picks that were on last year's team. As far as player acquisitions, your guy Welker is as good of an example as any, although Rodney Harrison might be his best. Mike Vrabel, Ted Washington, Aqib Talib last year. But don't take my word for it. Don't take my word for it. The proof is in the pudding - just look at their results compared to every other team in the league since Bill got here! And if you want to cherry pick any given set of years within the last decade, go ahead. They have been the best team in the league overall over the last five years, too.

Your point about DBs is somewhat fair, but I wonder how much of that is their high-scoring offense putting their secondary in a unique position compared to the rest of the league.

As far as "injury prone," I don't think that is a concept embraced my the medical field, but I could be wrong. But let's say it is an actual thing. How would you define it? Like I said before, Amendola has had one major injury, the same as Welker. He just missed a whole year because his occurred in week 1, whereas Welker's came in week 17 so he only missed one playoff game. And if you look at Amendola's pre-Patriot numbers and compare them to Welker's pre-Patriot numbers, Amendola's look good by comparison. That doesn't guarantee he'll be better than Welker in NE, but it does give me some pause in criticizing the move considering Belichick's demonstrated ability to identify players for specific roles on his team.

UCH21377 · Unread post by **UCH21377** » 11 years ago

I think I am in the minority here but I think Welker is overated, and a product of Brady, and the offensive scheme. I don't know if Amendola is the answer either. They need some big bodied, down-the-field types of receivers. Boldin may have been a better choice. Too late for that.

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 11 years ago

Danny Woodhead to the Chargers.
I really liked him. Lot of heart.

Unread post by **ATPTourFan** » 11 years ago

Danny Woodcock?! Darn. I thought he was good!

rhodyfan3 · Unread post by **rhodyfan3** » 11 years ago

rodfromcranston wrote:Sorry TP, but the "In Bill We Trust" , went by the boards with some of the
playoff failures, and losing two Superbowls to the Giants.
They blow throught the regular season, but since 2007 they are
3-4 in playoffs, including two one and dones.
Belichick's drafting of 8 million failed cornerbacks has become a joke.

I agree. I am sick of hearing the "In Bill We Trust" attitude. The disappoint every off-season, and this year is no different. They continue not to invest money in their defensive backfield and it hurts come game time. I am not Talib's biggest fan, but they need to bring him in and grab a safety such as Adrian Wilson, Ed Reed, or even Benard Pollard to go alongside Mccourty. Any of those 3 guys are better than Gregory and Tavon Wilson.
In terms of offense, we have gone down so far. Amendola is not that same as Wes Welker, no matter what people want to say. He will be serviceable and work in the system, but I do not see him being as productive as Welker. We still have Gronk and Hernandez, and will hopefully bring back Lloyd, but we lack toughness. None of those guys besides Gronk is tough. I want them to get a receiver with some size before everything is done.

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 11 years ago

rhodyfan3 wrote:
rodfromcranston wrote:Sorry TP, but the "In Bill We Trust" , went by the boards with some of the
playoff failures, and losing two Superbowls to the Giants.
They blow throught the regular season, but since 2007 they are
3-4 in playoffs, including two one and dones.
Belichick's drafting of 8 million failed cornerbacks has become a joke.
I agree. I am sick of hearing the "In Bill We Trust" attitude. The disappoint every off-season, and this year is no different. They continue not to invest money in their defensive backfield and it hurts come game time. I am not Talib's biggest fan, but they need to bring him in and grab a safety such as Adrian Wilson, Ed Reed, or even Benard Pollard to go alongside Mccourty. Any of those 3 guys are better than Gregory and Tavon Wilson.
In terms of offense, we have gone down so far. Amendola is not that same as Wes Welker, no matter what people want to say. He will be serviceable and work in the system, but I do not see him being as productive as Welker. We still have Gronk and Hernandez, and will hopefully bring back Lloyd, but we lack toughness. None of those guys besides Gronk is tough. I want them to get a receiver with some size before everything is done.

This is why people outside of New England hate Patriots fans. Yes, lets all of us - we accountants and lawyers and teachers and salesmen and contractors and whatever else - complain about how our first ballot HOF coach handles HIS personnel, even as he wins division after division title and puts a team on the field every year that is one of only a handful with a legit shot to win the Super Bowl. This isn't the Harlem Globetrotters, the same team can't win every year - even if you have the best team. All you can ask for as a fan is a legit shot, meaning you get into the playoffs and if you play your best game three times in a row and nothing crazy happens against you (injuries, bad calls, miraculous plays) then you can win. And the Patriots do that. Every year.

And every offseason the Patriots do something that fans complain about - let guys walk, trade guys, trade draft picks, draft guys nobody has heard of - and every season they win the division and have a chance to win the Super Bowl. Other teams are run how fans would run a team: they load up for one year and/or overpay glamour free agents and/or give contracts to aging veterans out of loyalty, and those teams MAYBE get a 2 or 3 year window before they wind up back in salary cap jail. The Patriots have proven over and over that they know exactly what they are doing, and still fans who don't understand the first thing about X's and O's at te professional level or the salary cap continue to question them.

With regard to the Amendola thing in particular, you're comparing what you've seen from Welker the last five years to what you know about Amendola now. But Amendola is a better version of what Welker was when the Patriots traded for him at the same exact stage of their careers. Maybe Amendola will never be as good as Welker was at his peak, but Welker won't be that good again either. For the same cap hit you're getting a newer version of the same model and you own it for longer. The logic there isn't difficult to follow.

Also, where do you want them to get a tough receiver with size? Maybe they can sign one with no hands? Maybe they can convince Detroit or Cincinnati to trade us theirs for a backup left end? Or maybe we can go into our football player factory and build one from scratch?!! Are there just big, tough wide receivers that run 4.3 40s and have Velcro hands hanging out somewhere waiting to be discovered?!!

Seriously, why do football fans hate thinking so much?

Unread post by **ATPTourFan** » 11 years ago

Thank you, Truepoint! Awesome post!

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 11 years ago

Sanctimonious post, looking down on we the great unwashed,
who don't worship Bill Belichick, and/or think he's perfect.
Read Ron Borges sometime. You won't like much of what he says, either.

UCH21377 · Unread post by **UCH21377** » 11 years ago

Truepoint, Anquan Bolden cost a 6th round draft choice. Tampa Bay picked up Vincent Jackson last year without spending a fortune. Sorry, but I think they need bigger receivers. Clearly, when you draft where NE does, there are no Megatrons or Julio Jones's available (BTW Atlanta traded up to get him), but there are options, and I don't think the Pats have done a great job with their receiving corps. However, I really have no problem with them letting Welker go. It's fun to play GM; that's why everybody does it. It doesn't mean we think Belichick is a bad personnel guy. And who cares what fans outside of NE think?

rhodyfan3 · Unread post by **rhodyfan3** » 11 years ago

Thank you Rod and UCH. The big WRs I was talking about are the ones UCH referred to, receivers with solid builds and good hands. It doesn't seem likely we get one this year, but we've had chances in the past. Thanks for your sarcasm though TP.
The patriots are a very successful franchise, we all know that. Us NE fans are spoiled and expect to win every year. We haven't won in some time, and I put some of the blame on Bill for not making the proper adjustments to his defensive coaching staff and player personnel.
I like playing GM and talking with other NE fans, and even though Bill is a great coach, he deserves some criticism.

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 11 years ago

rodfromcranston wrote:Sanctimonious post, looking down on we the great unwashed,
who don't worship Bill Belichick, and/or think he's perfect.
Read Ron Borges sometime. You won't like much of what he says, either.

That is because Ron Borges knows less about football than my cockapoo. He is widely regarded as the biggest joke with a press pass. That is who you want to cast your lot with? What was his claim to fame? Oh yeah, Belichick was a bad hire and the Patriots were stupid for taking Richard Seymour instead of David Terrell.

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 11 years ago

Anquan Boldin "only" cost a 6th round pick because he carries a $6M cap hit this year and then he is a free agent. That is a decent example, I suppose, but there are two problems: (1) the Patriots acquired Amendola for a specific role in the offense - one that made Welker a star - and they locked him up for five years of his prime at reasonable numbers, and (2) Boldin wasn't a free agent and there is no way the Ravens were trading him to the Patriots. The first point is important because it speaks to what the Patriots value: their system and long term salary cap management. The second point is important because it kind of makes the rest of the conversation regarding Boldin moot. Boldin also hasn't had more than 65 catches or reached 1000 yards since 2009, and he is going to be 33 years old this season and leaving his prime.

As far as Vincent Jackson, putting aside the fact that he is a complete dog and would never be able to play on a Belichick team, he signed a 5yr/55M contract when he got to TB last year. His cap number in 2013 is only $3M, but it will be $12M in each of the next three years. It will be a cold day in hell when Belichick wastes money like that. That is what I was saying above. These teams that go after these shiny objects in free agency do incredible long term damage to their organizations by blowing up their salary caps. Watch where Miami is in two years after this drunken spending spree they just went on. Look where the Jets are now.

Teams that consistently win in the NFL do it a certain way: the Patriots, Steelers and Packers build through the draft and just plug holes in free agency. Teams that go the other way tend to have very small windows, or none at all if they can't even stupidly spend their money correctly.

Anyway, it is hard for me to understand how fans can be critical of the Patriots when they do the same thing over and over, and the ultimate result of that approach is a team that contends for a Super Bowl every year for over a decade. I get that they don't win every year, but you have to understand that no team can win every year. Too many things can happen in football. Being a contender is all you can really ask; the rest is basically random.

rhodyfan3 · Unread post by **rhodyfan3** » 11 years ago

I know all the numbers. I know how it all works, however, I think after what Boldin just did in the playoffs, he is worth that 6th rd pick and the cap hit. I don't care about age, I think he could have been a reliable guy for Brady. I agree with you that we would never have gotten Jackson.
Now in your roughly 3 pages of analysis it doesn't seem like you dispute the fact that our defense is subpar. Do you not agree Bill deserves blame here?

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 11 years ago

I do wish our defense were better, at least situationally. This team has been a couple stops away on numerous occasions over the last few years, and we couldn't get off the field. I do think that the perception that the defense is horrendous is only partially fair, though. On one hand, you clearly have seen a devotion of resources to the offensive side of the ball, which seemed to be a philosophical shift after the league changed the rules to disallow contact with receivers that weren't being thrown to. Belichick apparently believed that moved the schematic advantage from the defense to the offense.

Having said that, though, I do think there is some level of misconception about how bad the defense actually is. They give up a ton of yards, and it looks even worse live than it does on the stat sheet. Watching mediocre QBs carve your defense up is frustrating. But they clearly are more concerned about taking away the big play and forcing teams to beat them on long drives, and they wait for you to make a mistake and try to capitalize on it. Also, their historically proficient offense puts a lot of pressure on the defense, because other offenses have to go full throttle all game in order to have a chance of keeping up. From a points-against standpoint, the Patriots haven't been nearly as bad as people think. They've been middle-of-the-pack.

On top of all that, the first half of this Belichick run was built on a veteran defense. They let it get old while they were retooling the offense. Now, the offense has carried the Pats in the second half of this run and is now the veteran unit, the defense has been retooled and is, in my opinion, on the way up. The signing today of Adrian Wilson should help immensely. He is the kind of pro's pro veteran that they used to bring in a decade ago. I bet the defense is pretty good next year.

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 11 years ago

rhodyfan3 wrote:I know all the numbers. I know how it all works, however, I think after what Boldin just did in the playoffs, he is worth that 6th rd pick and the cap hit. I don't care about age, I think he could have been a reliable guy for Brady. I agree with you that we would never have gotten Jackson.
Now in your roughly 3 pages of analysis it doesn't seem like you dispute the fact that our defense is subpar. Do you not agree Bill deserves blame here?

Also, one last thing on Boldin: that Ravens game turned on two things: Welker's big drop on the opening drive of the second half (among others) and Talib getting hurt. Up until Talib got hurt he had done a great job on Boldin, and Boldin only went off afterwards. Its funny, if Welker had caught that ball and Talib hadn't gotten hurt we probably wouldn't be having this conversation and this thread probably wouldn't even exist.

If they bring back Talib then I'll feel even better about the defense going into next season.

Andrew · Unread post by **Andrew** » 11 years ago

Lots of signings lately, including safety Adrian Wilson, rb/kick returner Leon Washington, wr Donald Jones, and someone on the defensive line (can't remember off the top of my head.)

Woodhead is not a big loss at all. Fun to watch, but easily the least talented back on the roster. Pats had Freeney in for a visit the other day, he'd be a great addition for spot duty. I'd still like to see them grab a WR, but it looks like some slim pickings right now. Unfortunately, the Pats have struggled mightily with this in the draft, missing on guys like Bethel Johnson, Chad Jackson, Taylor Price, Brandon Tate, etc.

Unread post by **SGreenwell** » 11 years ago

I agree with most of TP's points. Almost universally, the contracts that free agents sign on the first day of NFL free agency are horrible, and in reflection, most of the players the Patriots have let go haven't done much or been overpaid on their next teams.

Ramulous · Unread post by **Ramulous** » 11 years ago

To add to TP's points.......defensive rules changes make it more difficult to stop the passing attack....there is defensive holding or pass interference on almost every play....I think the old Patriots way of manhandling the receivers has passed.....the premium these days seems to be an excellent pass rush designed to force the QB into quicker throws....the Pats haven't yet found that pass rush....

rhodyfan3 · Unread post by **rhodyfan3** » 11 years ago

Good points. I don't really care about the Woodhead loss, I like the way our backfield looks right now. I'm not upset at the players they let go, Bill does seem to know when a player is done. Having said that, I still think we could have paid Welker. Maybe the bridge had been burned, but reports are coming out that we had already signed Amendola on Tuesday, so it seems like the pats moved on.
One issue I've had is our special teams and how there is nothing special about them. We grabbed Leon Washington which I like. A couple of years ago that name might have meant more but I think he's better than Mccourty taking it out of the end zone.
I agree, the pass rush has been a big issue. They addressed that a little bit, but it's still a work in progress. I don't care what you say about rule changes, or how our defense isn't as bad as it seems. Yeah they appear to get the job done in some games. Their technique is awful, they get penalties in critical situations. The defense needs work. I think we can all agree on that. And resigning Arrington is not going to help. I can't wait for Welker to burn him next year all game.
I like Wilson and I'm hoping they can work it out with Talib. Does anyone know the status on Dennard? Sentencing is in April but it seems like people are still putting him on the depth chart?

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 11 years ago

Supposedly the prosecution isn't pushing for jail time for Dennard. Brining back Talib was big today.

rhodyfan3 · Unread post by **rhodyfan3** » 11 years ago

He'll play well too. One year deal, he'll play to get paid by someone else in 2014.

rodfromcranston · Unread post by **rodfromcranston** » 11 years ago

I wonder how many of these guys being signed will be cut before training camp, or
during training camp? Another habit of God Belichick.

rhodyfan3 · Unread post by **rhodyfan3** » 11 years ago

rodfromcranston wrote:I wonder how many of these guys being signed will be cut before training camp, or
during training camp? Another habit of God Belichick.

I was wondering the same thing. We haven't had a huge amount of signings yet like in the past, but I think Wilson and Abraham will end up staying.

twisted3829 · Unread post by **twisted3829** » 11 years ago

Pats released Lloyd

rhodyfan3 · Unread post by **rhodyfan3** » 11 years ago

Saw that. Expected it after they first came out and said he wouldn't be returning. I liked Lloyd, but there's a reason he's been to 6 different teams since 2003.

rhodyfan3 · Unread post by **rhodyfan3** » 11 years ago

Patriots to sign Michael Jenkins. 6'4 215 lbs.

Unread post by **TruePoint** » 11 years ago

Eh. Camp body.

rhodyfan3 · Unread post by **rhodyfan3** » 11 years ago

Absolutely. I was thinking the same thing. I'm interested to see if they will address WR in the draft.

Andrew · Unread post by **Andrew** » 11 years ago

Jenkins isn't good at all. Would be very surprised if he made the roster.

rhodyfan3 · Unread post by **rhodyfan3** » 11 years ago

Andrew wrote:Jenkins isn't good at all. Would be very surprised if he made the roster.

He won't. This season is shaping up to be 2006 all over again.

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