Rhode Island High School Basketball Title Games

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SGreenwell
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Rhode Island High School Basketball Title Games

Unread post by SGreenwell »

The Ryan Center hosts all four games - girls' D3, D2 and D1, followed by the boys' state title game - tomorrow. I'll be there doing a live chat for Patch if you want to follow along: http://patch.com/A-29Wl

The girls' D2 and D1 games should be competitive, as should the boys' title game, which is NK vs. Classical. I don't think either team has a D1 basketball prospect (not sure on that though) but both were among the leaders in Division I high school this year. Classical won the division title, while NK had the best regular season record.
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Re: Rhode Island High School Basketball Title Games

Unread post by ATPTourFan »

Thanks for keeping us posted. At least there is some meaningful basketball to be played yet at the Ryan Center this Winter.
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Re: Rhode Island High School Basketball Title Games

Unread post by rjsuperfly66 »

What is the thought on the new "state championship" set up (well I guess it's not new but newer).

I know the state is trying to drive interest up by adding in polls and an all-inclusive state championship, but don't you feel it's sort of a half-hearted attempt? The poll is naturally consisting of mostly division 1 teams who just beat up on each other.

In theory what I personally would like to see happen (which probably never will) would be instead of divisions 1, 2, and 3, to just combine and go to a more regionalized structure.

Maybe have 5 divisions with 8 or 9 teams (depending on location). Have a regional tournament where maybe the top 2 teams (as determined by regional championship game participants) make the state championship, and then 6 at-large spots.

Part of me just feels like it would actually make the state championship "process" more special, rather than having some of these division 1 teams facing the same opponent 4 times in a given season. It would also boost the "March Madness" feel, and boost local rivalries at the same time.
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Re: Rhode Island High School Basketball Title Games

Unread post by SGreenwell »

rjsuperfly66 wrote:What is the thought on the new "state championship" set up (well I guess it's not new but newer).

I know the state is trying to drive interest up by adding in polls and an all-inclusive state championship, but don't you feel it's sort of a half-hearted attempt? The poll is naturally consisting of mostly division 1 teams who just beat up on each other.

In theory what I personally would like to see happen (which probably never will) would be instead of divisions 1, 2, and 3, to just combine and go to a more regionalized structure.

Maybe have 5 divisions with 8 or 9 teams (depending on location). Have a regional tournament where maybe the top 2 teams (as determined by regional championship game participants) make the state championship, and then 6 at-large spots.

Part of me just feels like it would actually make the state championship "process" more special, rather than having some of these division 1 teams facing the same opponent 4 times in a given season. It would also boost the "March Madness" feel, and boost local rivalries at the same time.
I think there are a couple things going on here that makes it tough:

1) The Division I teams are in that division for a reason. I mean, there are usually a few teams toward of the bottom that are only there because they were improperly moved up based on temporary success - SK and Chariho jump to mind. But I suspect that if you took the top five or six from D-I and had them play the top six from D-II in seven games series, all of the D-I teams would prevail.

2) The field was larger in 2011-12, and it resulted in some comically bad games. No. 4 St. Ray's (D1) beat No. 29 Narragansett (.500ish D2 team) 63-29. The only "upset" in the opening round was No. 23 EWG beating No. 10 Prout, except that both were D3 teams.

3) I believe that so far, the only teams have won were top-five D1 teams anyway. In 2010, No. 5 St. Ray's won. In 2011, it was No. 5 Central, and this year, Classical was the No. 1 seed because they won the D1 tournament title, and NK was the regular season champ.

4) If anything, the D3 teams are probably over-represented. North Smithfield was a good team, but they probably don't go undefeated regular season if they have to play in D2 every night. (Specifically, D2 Prout had them on the ropes in the semis before they lost in the Final Four anyway.)

I think they should allow some more fluidity between D2 and D3 to allow a North Smithfield to move up for one year if they think they have a good team, but in return, D3 teams shouldn't be allowed to play for the state title. For three years in a row, the "top" team in D3 has mostly fed on schools that are habitually bad, like Davies. I don't think there is a reason why schools like Johnston, Middletown, the Warwick schools and Moses Brown should be in D3, not when schools like Tiverton and Narragansett have been OK in D2.
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Re: Rhode Island High School Basketball Title Games

Unread post by rjsuperfly66 »

So would you be in favor of almost an English soccer scenario, whereas maybe the top 2 teams in every division move up (divisions 2 and 3), and maybe the bottom 2 teams in every division move down (divisions 1 and 2)?
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Re: Rhode Island High School Basketball Title Games

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rjsuperfly66 wrote:So would you be in favor of almost an English soccer scenario, whereas maybe the top 2 teams in every division move up (divisions 2 and 3), and maybe the bottom 2 teams in every division move down (divisions 1 and 2)?
I don't see how that could work well in high school basketball. What if a senior-laden D-II team won their division? Then the next year, with a young team, has to compete again D-I teams? It would have to be voluntary, I think.
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Re: Rhode Island High School Basketball Title Games

Unread post by rjsuperfly66 »

I suppose, I just have heard of many situations in most sports where a lot of kids leaving their respective towns to go to a Hendricken or LaSalle for a particular sport because they are talented and want exposure and don't want to be known as a good player or the best player at a D3 or D2 school.

If the transition period is 2 or 3 years, that good basketball player who is a difference maker might not even be around by the time his school would jump up a level.
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Re: Rhode Island High School Basketball Title Games

Unread post by SGreenwell »

I think a coach should basically be able to "argue" his case at the RIIL about whether they should be in a certain division or not. With boys' basketball, there actually isn't a ton of incentive to be in a higher division - Plenty of D2 teams make it, and if you have a dominant squad in D3, you can rack up plenty of seeding points. While you "only" have to go around .500 to qualify in D1, that's probably tougher than going .600 or better in the lower divisions.

However, it shouldn't be solely up to a coach, since some programs have shown a stubborn refusal to move up in division - they'd rather have the gate from an undefeated D3 team than a middle of the road team in a higher division. This situation is worse in the non-boys basketball sports, where you have a couple schools hiding out in lower divisions because they seemingly enjoy winning titles more than challenging their athletes.
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Re: Rhode Island High School Basketball Title Games

Unread post by rjsuperfly66 »

I agree with you SG, which is where my thought came about regionalizing "divisions" so maybe you would get a balance of D1/2/3 teams and hopefully you would come out with more natural rivalries, more of a willingness to want to stay home, and a real chance of something special when you get to the "state championship."

In theory, the best state championship would come from having the best 16 teams, which can never happen because naturally teams in D1 (the better teams) have to go under .500, and D2 teams can rack up these "seeding points," without ever really getting consistently battle tested. And then you get strange matchups where a .500ish D1 team like Hendricken is getting a #15 seed and playing LaSalle, while a team whose SOS is likely significantly weaker gets a high seed (like #4 Cumberland; #5 North Smithfield; #8 Westerly). And don't even get me started on these seeding points --- Hope wins the D1 tournament and gets a #7 seed. Meanwhile you have North Smithfield getting a #5 seed out of D3. If you want to do it right, it should be "NCAA-style" where your D3 and D2 teams are almost like automatic teams filling out most of the bottom of the field.

I bet Classical appreciated that 81-32 drubbing of the #8 seed Westerly (D2) 81-32 in the state quarterfinals.

There has to be a better way to do it.
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Re: Rhode Island High School Basketball Title Games

Unread post by UCH21377 »

Why have 3 divisions in the first place? This is a tiny state. Two divisions are enough. Have D1 and D2, North and South. Two division champs, and then an open state tourney to give the D2 teams a crack at the big boys.
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Re: Rhode Island High School Basketball Title Games

Unread post by SGreenwell »

UCH21377 wrote:Why have 3 divisions in the first place? This is a tiny state. Two divisions are enough. Have D1 and D2, North and South. Two division champs, and then an open state tourney to give the D2 teams a crack at the big boys.
There are some schools that do legitimately belong in D3 in most sports - Fatima before it closed, Davies, Block Island whenever it does have a sports team. But yeah, I think you could condense to two divisions for every sport except football and probably be OK.
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Re: Rhode Island High School Basketball Title Games

Unread post by rjsuperfly66 »

How do you guys feel about other sports and how they do their playoffs?

Like hockey "division 1" is 8 teams, but the top 4 teams go to the "State Championship," and the bottom 4 teams go to the "division 1 championship." Loser's mentality?

I was glad to see they got rid of that in football with having the division 1 teams compete for 2 "championships."

I think for the most part, RIIL has hit a "home run" (pun intended) with the baseball playoffs.
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Re: Rhode Island High School Basketball Title Games

Unread post by SGreenwell »

rjsuperfly66 wrote:How do you guys feel about other sports and how they do their playoffs?

Like hockey "division 1" is 8 teams, but the top 4 teams go to the "State Championship," and the bottom 4 teams go to the "division 1 championship." Loser's mentality?

I was glad to see they got rid of that in football with having the division 1 teams compete for 2 "championships."

I think for the most part, RIIL has hit a "home run" (pun intended) with the baseball playoffs.
Hockey Division I is tough in that the top teams are so dominant, it's tough to include them in a league without breaking the balance completely.
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